Lemon laws - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 
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post #1 of 10 Old Oct 5th, 2009, 11:26 am Thread Starter
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Lemon laws

Hi All,

So, I did some research regarding Lemon Laws, in New Hampshire. According to my research, if a motorcycle is in the shop for more than 30 business days, consecutively, for a warranty failure that occured during the term of the manufacturer's warranty, you can claim the bike a "Lemon". My question is, what is the restitution ? Is BMW required to give you your full purchase price back ? A new bike ? What are my options ? Nothing I have read really explains the restitution portion very well. And I'm hesitant to bring a lawyer in, unless I have to.

I think what I'd really like is for BMW to swap my '07 RT with a new, say '09 model. But, this doesn't seem fair to BMW. I just don't know what my options would be if my bike falls under the Lemon Law. Anyone have any experience with this ?

Roy
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post #2 of 10 Old Oct 5th, 2009, 11:54 am
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Re: Lemon laws

Roy -

From the link below:
V. Within the 40-day period set forth in paragraph IV, the manufacturer shall have one final opportunity to correct and repair the defect which the consumer claims entitles him to a refund or replacement vehicle.

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/...XXXI-357-D.htm

Hope this helps -

Ted

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post #3 of 10 Old Oct 5th, 2009, 12:36 pm
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Re: Lemon laws

Restitution is a negotiated settlement if the lemon law is invoked to remedy the situation. I ran into this with Ford a few years ago on an F150 I owned. Generally it's somewhere in the range of a replacement vehicle to a refund of your money minus a per mile fee for mileage used up until the initial report of the problem. When I went through the buyback with BMW on my K1200GT I never needed to invoke the lemon law; they were proactive in taking care of my issues and getting me the new bike without having to jump through those extra hoops. If you're not talking to BMW Customer Relations at this point I would highly recommend doing so as they are your best advocate in dealing with this type of issue.

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post #4 of 10 Old Oct 5th, 2009, 12:36 pm
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Re: Lemon laws

Just keep in mind that "Refund" means purchase price less deduction for use and damage. It typicaly means (on cars, not sure on bikes) 1/125,000 of the MSRP per mile. And a deduction is made for damages, not normal wear. Removal of aftermarket parts is also typically the responsibility of the customer.

In almost all cases the Manufacturer will make you an offer that is better than the legal remedy. Unless they feel strong that your case is frivolous.

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post #5 of 10 Old Oct 5th, 2009, 1:07 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Lemon laws

David,

So, if I'm reading your post correctly, you had a problem with a GT and BMW replaced the bike you bought with a new bike ? What year was the bike that was defective and what year bike did they replace it with ?

Herein lies my biggest problem. I do think that my, particular bike (07' RT), is a lemon. In nine more business days, I think the law will agree with me. However, given the opportunity, I would still buy an RT. Mine has been painful, to say the least, but the RT is just a great motorcycle and offers me what I am looking for in a bike better than anything else that is, currently, on the market. If BMW steps up to the plate and offers me a new replacement bike, I'd take it in a heart beat. And no lawyers need be involved.

I met with my dealer, Second Wind of New Hampshire, and they, basically said, tell us what you want and we will do everything we can to accomodate you, through the BMW rep. I can't ask for more than that, but, what do I ask for ? A replacement bike is what I really want, but I feel like that is asking too much. However, after all that I've been through on my current bike, it would be hard to feel confident or safe on it in the future.

I would like to do everything in my power to not get attorneys involved and would much rather come to a settlement without having to go there. Not that I have much experience with lawyers, but every experience that I have had, leads me to believe that, in those cases, it's the attorneys who win.

Roy
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post #6 of 10 Old Oct 5th, 2009, 1:28 pm
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Re: Lemon laws

"A replacement bike is what I really want, but I feel like that is asking too much."

Royal,

Why do you say that? The bottom line is for the dealer to hear what it will take to make you happy or satisfied. There's absolutely nothing wrong in asking for an '09. Do not sell yourself short. You've done nothing wrong. Be your own advocate.

Think of it this way, if you asked for and received another '07, how would you feel later on if you learned they were willing to give you an '09? If you ask for an '09 and they balk, you have room for negotiation that can probably be done without a lawyer. Are you willing to compromise? Perhaps meet them halfway with the price difference?

What you ask for may be a lot less than what they're willing to offer. You can always start high and work your way down in negotiations, it's pretty hard to go in the opposite direction.

Good luck

Take care,
Chris

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post #7 of 10 Old Oct 5th, 2009, 1:45 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Lemon laws

Chris,

Very good point. I didn't look at it this way. Maybe that's why for 48 years I have been terrible at negotiations.

Roy
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post #8 of 10 Old Oct 5th, 2009, 5:19 pm
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Re: Lemon laws

How many miles on the lemon ?

I'd sure ask for a new bike. If the lemon law is applicable to your situation.
You'd probably have to pay for the mileage on the old one and the difference if any of the prices between the two bikes. Maybe not.....

Why can't they get the old one fixed ? What's the problem ?
How many other times has it been in for repair ?

John

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post #9 of 10 Old Oct 5th, 2009, 8:15 pm
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Re: Lemon laws

Quote:
Originally Posted by royal
David,

So, if I'm reading your post correctly, you had a problem with a GT and BMW replaced the bike you bought with a new bike ? What year was the bike that was defective and what year bike did they replace it with ?

Herein lies my biggest problem. I do think that my, particular bike (07' RT), is a lemon. In nine more business days, I think the law will agree with me. However, given the opportunity, I would still buy an RT. Mine has been painful, to say the least, but the RT is just a great motorcycle and offers me what I am looking for in a bike better than anything else that is, currently, on the market. If BMW steps up to the plate and offers me a new replacement bike, I'd take it in a heart beat. And no lawyers need be involved.

I met with my dealer, Second Wind of New Hampshire, and they, basically said, tell us what you want and we will do everything we can to accomodate you, through the BMW rep. I can't ask for more than that, but, what do I ask for ? A replacement bike is what I really want, but I feel like that is asking too much. However, after all that I've been through on my current bike, it would be hard to feel confident or safe on it in the future.

I would like to do everything in my power to not get attorneys involved and would much rather come to a settlement without having to go there. Not that I have much experience with lawyers, but every experience that I have had, leads me to believe that, in those cases, it's the attorneys who win.

Roy

If you want a replacement bike, ask for a replacement bike. Why is it asking too much to request what you paid for in the first place; a motorcycle that functions correctly and you can ride reliably?

My statement to BMW (dealer, NA, district reps, etc.) was consistently, "I buy my bikes to ride them. Put a bike under me that works and I'm a happy guy. It can be the one on the rack or a new one. Either way, if it works, I'm happy." In my case it was determined putting a new one under me was the most effective solution, and that's what BMW did. And with very little prompting and cajoling from me. Honestly, that experience from end to end was one of the best customer service interactions I've ever had with any company. And there's no trick to it - be professional, courteous, and friendly. Be clear about what you want. Be patient because these things take time. And be willing to make compromises in some areas to gain the bigger picture of what you ultimately want. In the end BMW wants you to stay with the brand, and it sounds like you are of the same mindset. You are starting from a win-win situation on that point, so extending that to your ultimate resolution isn't that far-fetched, is it?

That being said, I don't know how it would work if you were to actually invoke the Lemon Law and get the lawyers involved. While it looks like the same thing I went through it is very different, as you now have laws and statutes that must be met and followed, and the legal departments are generally much less accommodating that Customer Relations. I worked with Ford for 8 months on the issues with my F-150 adn was happy to continue to do so. I only invoked the Lemon Law since the 18 months and 18,000 mile limit was approaching. As soon as I did the relationship with corporate immediately became adversarial and the dealer was instructed not to deal with me directly any further. The folks I ended up dealing with were so arrogant and combative at times, twisted the facts, and even lied to me about one event, that they pretty much guaranteed that I would never own another Ford again. And I grew up in a family that owned a Lincoln-Mercury dealership, so I was a bit partial to the brand. Even at the end they were still offering me a brand new truck for free and I wouldn't take it, I forced them to give me my money back. I beat them without hiring a lawyer, either, which says something for their quality of legal representation.

David Taylor
San Jose, CA
2010 R1200RT Polar Metallic
AMA, BMWMOA
Booze Brother #4

The shortest distance between two points is for people who don't ride!



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Last edited by DavidTaylor; Oct 5th, 2009 at 8:23 pm.
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post #10 of 10 Old Oct 6th, 2009, 2:48 am
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Re: Lemon laws

Quote:
Originally Posted by royal
....Very good point. I didn't look at it this way. Maybe that's why for 48 years I have been terrible at negotiations.....
Well, Roy, the winds are a changing! What matters is not the last 48, but the next 48!

I think Chris is right on target. You're not asking for your money back, just another bike that's not a lemon. Asking for a 09, to replace your 07, is a reasonable request. I mean the model year 09 is done now. By the time you get an 09, it will be a model year old, already!

Best of luck to you!

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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