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post #1 of 25 Old Sep 20th, 2008, 1:11 pm Thread Starter
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$52,000,000. riding lessons?

I learned for free...

Cape Fox to provide training for navy and marines

Cape Fox Professional Services will provide motorcycle safety training to the United States Navy and the Marines.
The Manassas, Va.-based company was awarded with a five-year, $52 million contract to enhance the Traffic Safety and Recreational Off-Duty Safety Program (TS/RODS) provided for the Commandant of the Marine Corps (CMC) and the Commander, Navy Installations Command (CNIC).

CFPS will oversee the implementation of the TS/RODS program and provide hands-on classroom instruction and high-tech personal vehicle simulators. The curriculum will include comprehensive training in basic, advanced and sportbike safety. CFPS will send more than 80 trainers to provide motorcycle safety training at select Navy and Marine Corps bases including major hubs in California, North Carolina and Virginia, as well as overseas locations in Spain, Italy, Bahrain, Japan, Singapore, Guam and Korea.

“CFPS is very excited to be awarded this opportunity to work so closely with the Navy’s and Marine's safety professionals. Our role will extend well beyond local training to encompass a full partnership with the program offices at CNIC and CMC,” says Joe Sette, vice president of training and safety for CFPS.

The U.S. Army has already been using CFPS’ training program. According to Sette, 300,000 have benefitted from the CFPS-operated Army Traffic Safety Training Program.

“In collaborating with the Army’s Installation Command (IMCOM) in support of its Army Traffic Safety Training Program (ATSTP), CFPS has already proven its ability to efficiently and effectively run a traffic and motorcycle training program,” says Sette. “To help reduce accidental fatalities and keep our war-fighters safe, CFPS will leverage its past performance and share its best practices to ensure success on this joint safety venture for the Navy and Marine Corps.”

According to the company’s website, http://www.capefoxit.com/, CFPS is looking for Motorcycle Safety Foundation RiderCoach-certified instructors for its naval and army training programs.

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post #2 of 25 Old Sep 20th, 2008, 1:36 pm
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Re: $52,000,000. riding lessons?

We buy hammers for $30 at Home Depot. The Military gets them for $700.

We pay $109 to MSF. The Military contracts it out at $52,000,000.

It makes perfect sense.


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post #3 of 25 Old Sep 20th, 2008, 2:07 pm
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Re: $52,000,000. riding lessons?

While I don't have a clue why the Navy/Marines (the definition of "squid" covers a lot of natural weirdness) are doing what they're doing, the Army has been aggressively promoting MSF training (actually requiring it before you can register a cycle on post and having Sergeants Major jump all over anyone who doesn't meet the requirement) AND underwriting the cost of soldiers' enrollment in the MSF courses for several years. They seem to find that a reasonable expenditure, although m/c deaths continue to rise in this service.

They even underwrote my repeat of the course before I retired 18 months ago--even though nobody mentioned that the K11LT I took it on was radically different from my K12LT.

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post #4 of 25 Old Sep 20th, 2008, 3:06 pm
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Re: $52,000,000. riding lessons?

I'm not convinced this is where tax dollars should go, but I am pretty certain that the financial analysis will support this cost. When I was in training in the USAF (3500 Pilot Training Wing) many of us rode motorcycles and as young AF bucks we were both confident and reckless. (Our version of AF Regulations--no drinking within 100 feet of the plane and no smoking within 24 hours of flight). Many of my class would eventually be lost in Viet Nam. However, before we ever got through training we lost 4 of my class to motorcycle mishaps. I'm not sure what the cost per pilot trained is today, but know that at one time it exceeded $2,000,000.00. MSF training does not have to save very many $2,000,000.00 military folks (never mind the human cost) to pay for itself.
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post #5 of 25 Old Sep 20th, 2008, 4:51 pm
 
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Re: $52,000,000. riding lessons?

The things you need to factor into the total dollar amount are:

1. What does it cost to train a soldier/airman/salior/marine to the point that they are competent?

2. What is the cost of lost days due to motorcycle mishaps/accidents etc. Not to mention the rise in insurance rates for all of us.

3. The serviceman's life insurance is up to $400,000.00 now, not counting the $100,000.00 death gratuity, and the alloted $6,000.00 to bury them. Oh yeah and the 1 year pay and allowances paid out to the family, ( lets ball park it at $50,000.00).... This alone totals about $600,000.00

4. They are paying about 10 Million a year for the program. Build in the inflated amount the government usually pays and call it $200.00 a person, that would be 50,000 participants. If their program is like the Army's they will pay for dependents 16yrs and older as well. Being generous I would bet that at least 50% of the riding married serviceman and women get their spouse or family member to take the course. I know I got my wife and son to take it and I have been through the basic and advanced courses on Uncle Sam.

The course promotes the military safety attitude and hopefully makes them better and safer riders. The statement about the death rates on M/Cs for service members being up is correct. For this year alone it is up almost 20%. We have people coming back from theater with a lot of save cash and missing the adrenaline rush they lived with for months. The also are suffering from PTSD and other emotional issues. They are buying bikes with no experience... they are young and think they are invincible.... This is a bad mix when you put it all together.

I think the cost is very small when you look at the long term effects, costs and the loss of lives.

Being a standing First Sergeant and having been the deliverer of death notifications and assistance officer for families who lost family members in a war, seeing the devastation of that is enough to make me lose sleep and weep with and for them.

We train them to fight with the goal of increasing survivability. We need also to train them to ride and increase their chances of survivability on the bikes. If this money will assist in avoiding the tragedy of a motorcycle death and keeping out service members and children alive... it is a small price.

OFF RANT now!
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post #6 of 25 Old Sep 20th, 2008, 6:51 pm
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Re: $52,000,000. riding lessons?

I agree with everything you said except "it's worth it".

To WHO? Well the people who are receiving it free of course.

To me as a TAX PAYER? BIG FAT NO! ESPECIALLY since I am not availed of the same resource. And in some States need to do it to get licensed, at whatever the going cost is.

Do I think Mandatory MS courses are good?

You BET!

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post #7 of 25 Old Sep 20th, 2008, 7:01 pm
 
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Re: $52,000,000. riding lessons?

I guess it is a matter of opinion as to worth.

I would rather spend the money and not have to pay a lifetime medical disability to someone who gets vegatized in an accident due to lack of education and skills.

I would rather spend that 52 million on them than provide free medical care to illegals, or welfare to souls too lazy to work, or instructors for ESL students whose parents want to live here but not teach them or learn the language themselves.... this goes on and on.

While we are all not given the course for free, when you look at what they do and what they protect... we pay for far worse. Look at all the tax money we give away in free car seats and other safety items to protect kids etc.... My grandkids didn't get one because parents made too much. I didn't complain though... in the end it is a cost savings when you look at the overall potential for increased medical costs in an accident.

We all pay for a lot of things we don't get to make use of.

All boils down to what we value. Being military I value trained and whole soldiers who can do their time, give something back, do something not everyone will do and then move beyond to do other things in life after their service with the skill we all paid for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LAF
I agree with everything you said except "it's worth it".

To WHO? Well the people who are receiving it free of course.

To me as a TAX PAYER? BIG FAT NO! ESPECIALLY since I am not availed of the same resource. And in some States need to do it to get licensed, at whatever the going cost is.

Do I think Mandatory MS courses are good?

You BET!
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post #8 of 25 Old Sep 20th, 2008, 7:09 pm
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Re: $52,000,000. riding lessons?

DKknight:

We're not in disagreement.

But as a former CG watching how monies are spent on contractors, I've got good grounds for worrying about this contract.

What superior results will be obtained by these contractors that can't be accomplished through the MSF training and a vigorous command emphasis program? How will they be held accountable?

Contractors, all too often, are the means by which military leaders foist off their responsibilities onto others.
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post #9 of 25 Old Sep 20th, 2008, 8:07 pm
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Lightbulb Re: $52,000,000. riding lessons?

Sargent Sauls said it better than I did and besides his experience is more current than my Viet Nam era experience. Of course the contractor must be held accountable but the value to the US taxpayer in terms of preserving the investment in personnel cannot be argued. If you want to pay our military a civilian based wage, then you can argue that they and not their "employer" should pay for the course.
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post #10 of 25 Old Sep 20th, 2008, 10:30 pm
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Re: $52,000,000. riding lessons?

Spendy though it is, the training doesn't have to save too many million-dollar flyboys before it becomes easy to financially justify.

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post #11 of 25 Old Sep 20th, 2008, 11:39 pm
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Re: $52,000,000. riding lessons?

And as to "free", well all you have to do is donate a portion of your life or if you already have, reup to defending this country and get your training "free"

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post #12 of 25 Old Sep 21st, 2008, 3:03 am
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Re: $52,000,000. riding lessons?

I also agree that providing these young bucks MSF training is a good thing.

...But from my experience here in El Paso, TX...home of Ft. Bliss...NO amount of MSF training can take the hotdoging, showboating, pack mentality, bullet-proof perception, and immaturity out of them. They are still gonna act a fool, endangering others in the process, killing and maiming themselves and their innocent pillions on their crotch rockets every weekend. I know not every fool on a rocket bike is a soldier...and not every soldier on a rocket bike is a fool...but most of the incidents that make the news here involves a Ft. Bliss soldier.

They run in packs...passing between cars and on shoulders. Wheelies and stoppies. Drag racing from stoplights. Triple-digit speeds on the interstate. Three and four times the speed limit on surface roads. Holding up traffic so they can stunt. Doing time-trials on the pass. And actually baiting the cops to chase them. It so bad out here that the public and the media are all wadded up and pissed. I now NEVER wave to any crotch rocket rider because they are ruining the public's perception of motorcyclist to the point that cagers fvck with me all the time.

They might be a small percentage of the rest of the riding soldiers but they have tainted the public's perception for the whole lot of them.


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post #13 of 25 Old Sep 21st, 2008, 9:03 am
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Re: $52,000,000. riding lessons?

I do not disagree it is a good thing educating and saving life.

I am a Vet and in my time 72-74 we just worried about staying alive.

I just am against spending that amount of money because you are perceived as something special while all the rest of us civilians are treated as expendable, or foot our own training. Is my life worth so much less then a Military persons? Did my time and duty not count?

You would have a cow if they said you cant ride as part of your military career, or pay for the course yourself, like the rest of us have too. If these soldiers are so special and highly trained then it should be don't ride or pay for the course, PERIOD. Athletes are forbidden, certain civilian jobs will pull your heath care if you ride, States require it for licensing, so why are these people so special?

And the point is YES I support a whole bunch of things I am not reaping the benefits from, but a CHOICE of lifestyle on personal time should not be subsidized on my back. I need to pay, so should others.

I love my Military Brothers as much as anyone, but for me to pay for something that is NOT Military bidness is total BS.



Quote:
Originally Posted by dkknight
I guess it is a matter of opinion as to worth.

I would rather spend the money and not have to pay a lifetime medical disability to someone who gets vegatized in an accident due to lack of education and skills.

I would rather spend that 52 million on them than provide free medical care to illegals, or welfare to souls too lazy to work, or instructors for ESL students whose parents want to live here but not teach them or learn the language themselves.... this goes on and on.

While we are all not given the course for free, when you look at what they do and what they protect... we pay for far worse. Look at all the tax money we give away in free car seats and other safety items to protect kids etc.... My grandkids didn't get one because parents made too much. I didn't complain though... in the end it is a cost savings when you look at the overall potential for increased medical costs in an accident.

We all pay for a lot of things we don't get to make use of.

All boils down to what we value. Being military I value trained and whole soldiers who can do their time, give something back, do something not everyone will do and then move beyond to do other things in life after their service with the skill we all paid for.

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post #14 of 25 Old Sep 21st, 2008, 12:08 pm
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Re: $52,000,000. riding lessons?

The MSF safety course should be mandatory if you want to ride on base. They should just reimburse them for it if they are enlisted and not shell out millions to a third party. The government can make everything idiot proof even though they continue to try............

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post #15 of 25 Old Sep 21st, 2008, 12:10 pm
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Re: $52,000,000. riding lessons?

can't ........that is.......I used to park off base because I couldn't afford the insurance as an E-3......

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post #16 of 25 Old Sep 21st, 2008, 12:20 pm
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Re: $52,000,000. riding lessons?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rattler50
The MSF safety course should be mandatory if you want to ride on base. They should just reimburse them for it if they are enlisted and not shell out millions to a third party.
That's more like it.


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post #17 of 25 Old Sep 21st, 2008, 4:59 pm
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Re: $52,000,000. riding lessons?

With motorcycle accidents being the leading cause of death for soldiers returning from combat operations, it seems to be a bit of an insurance policy for my investment into the military. In the end, what's another $52 million?

Its still less than 1 F-35 at $70 million each and lets more than one person enjoy something.

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post #18 of 25 Old Sep 21st, 2008, 7:09 pm
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Re: $52,000,000. riding lessons?

You guys are all missing the BIG PICTURE. If you research the company providing the training it is probably owned by Haliburton. You wouldn't want the nameless guy who is now Vice Pres to be without a small retirement package when his time is up, would you?

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post #19 of 25 Old Sep 21st, 2008, 7:41 pm
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Re: $52,000,000. riding lessons?

Based on the first web site that I found, the $52,000,000 is equivalent to slightly more than three hours worth of the war in Iraq. (Basis: $12 billion per month).
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post #20 of 25 Old Sep 22nd, 2008, 6:24 am
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Re: $52,000,000. riding lessons?

So, we get a 3 hour training session for our 52 million. That sounds about right............Congress is adjourned............

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post #21 of 25 Old Sep 22nd, 2008, 12:08 pm
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Re: $52,000,000. riding lessons?

Quote:
Originally Posted by eljeffe
We buy hammers for $30 at Home Depot. The Military gets them for $700.

We pay $109 to MSF. The Military contracts it out at $52,000,000.

It makes perfect sense.
The line from the movie "Independence Day" says it all:

Julius: Area 51! Right? Area 51! You knew then and you did nothing!
Whitmore: Sir, regardless of what you may have read in the tabloids...There is no area 51. There's no recovered spaceship.
Nimzicki: Uh, Mr. President, that's not entirely accurate.
David: What?! Which part?

Whitmore: (looking at amazement at Area 51) Why the hell wasn't I told about this?
Nimzicki: Two words, Mr. President: Plausible deniability.

Whitmore: I don't understand. Where do we get the funding for this kind of thing?
Julius: What, you don't think they really spend $2million for a hammer, $3million for a toilet, do you?




I'm not saying that Area 51 exists (that's up to you to decide for yourself) but there is definitely more behind the $52,000,000 than the MSF courses.

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post #22 of 25 Old Sep 22nd, 2008, 4:44 pm
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Re: $52,000,000. riding lessons?

Quote:
Originally Posted by scottydawg
I learned for free...
I did as well!

its now mandatory for anyone to get a MC license in FL to take msf, I've been told it is now at 300 bucks a class

that is a rip off!! so it now should also be mandatory for anyone to get a DL to take a course!

I hate the type of people that back a program like that

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post #23 of 25 Old Sep 22nd, 2008, 5:44 pm
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Re: $52,000,000. riding lessons?

"The course promotes the military safety attitude and hopefully makes them better and safer riders. The statement about the death rates on M/Cs for service members being up is correct. For this year alone it is up almost 20%. We have people coming back from theater with a lot of save cash and missing the adrenaline rush they lived with for months. The also are suffering from PTSD and other emotional issues. They are buying bikes with no experience... they are young and think they are invincible.... This is a bad mix when you put it all together."



I remember during/after the nam war young folks were killing themselves in big block chryslers and mostly corvettes, which they spent all that hard earned money on once they got to spend it on something. So I think the issue you state above is in fact, a product of the envrionment.

Being a former jarhead myself plus all the other risk-sports I've experienced in my life, I can say there is only so much you can do.

However, when I look back, jumping on a brand new honda 500-4 and dealing with it, I would have been much safer with a little instruction/direction, especially regarding AGATT.

So I'm a fence sitter on this one. I'd like to say hell ya, get em the training, but at the same time, yikes!!! thats a lotta cash!

Andrenaline is the worst drug known to man when used improperly. After I quit skydiving a long time ago, I had withdrawal symtoms for 3 yrs after. I don't know how you'll ever tame a human with too much of that stuff running thru his/her veins for too long but sensible training surely won't hurt.

My wife used to caveat my life with "yes I think your nutz but if it wasn't for people like you, we'd never have walked on the moon".

Life sure is a 2-edged sword eh? nuff said....
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post #24 of 25 Old Sep 23rd, 2008, 1:01 am
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Re: $52,000,000. riding lessons?

next time my taxes are due I'll just send them a couple of hammers.

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post #25 of 25 Old Sep 23rd, 2008, 2:34 pm
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Re: $52,000,000. riding lessons?

Our generous government is giving the Big Oil Companies $51,000,000 to do exploration for oil that they won't allow them to drill and pump. Seems like spending $52,000,000 on a training program that could be purchased for $300 per person on the open market is pretty reasonable behavior. After training only 173,333 people they break even.

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