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post #1 of 33 Old Jun 28th, 2008, 9:26 am Thread Starter
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Florida to REQUIRE MSF training

It all starts on Tuesday! Now, maybe the rest of the states will follow this lead...

http://www.tampabay.com/news/transpo...icle648593.ece


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post #2 of 33 Old Jun 28th, 2008, 10:03 am
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Re: Florida to REQUIRE MSF training

Ironic that the people who are rushing to beat the deadline and save money by avoiding the course are probably the ones that need it most...

I've seen some absolutely crazy **** the last month with scooters around here. Talking on the cell phone, riding in shorts and flip flops, making fast lane changes without even a hint of a signal, running scarlet red lights ... goes on and on. One kid was even text messaging (no helmet of course) at a stop light while it turned green. I pulled up next to him and told him to put that **** away and pay attention to driving. He gave me the finger. ... and I'm driving a 4,000 lb. piece of STEEL!

My bet is that motorcycle insurance rates will double by in 12 months.

There goes the neighborhood!


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post #3 of 33 Old Jun 28th, 2008, 12:10 pm
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Re: Florida to REQUIRE MSF training

+1 on what Ron said! All Ms Skinner cares about is saving $300. If she had bothered to do even a few minutes of research, she would see $300 as a cheap INSURANCE POLICY ON HER WORTHLESS ASS!

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #4 of 33 Old Jun 28th, 2008, 1:07 pm
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Re: Florida to REQUIRE MSF training

I imagine that a law that requires MSF training will be as controversial as the ones that require helmet wear.

Personally, I am a big proponent of both training and helmet wear. Whether they should be made mandatory through legislation, I can't say.

It is common knowledge that motorcycle fatality rates have gone up, even when the increase in registered motorcycles is considered. When training becomes mandatory in Florida, hopefully it will provide useful data showing whether that approach will reverse the trend and/or reduce fatality rates.

Rider training notwithstanding, I believe that there is a crying need for supplementary driver education as well. It should (must!) include motorcycle awareness training, especially if you consider the increase in the number of motorcycles and scooters on our roads. Over the last four decades, I have observed a sea-change in the way that car drivers behave on our roads. Car drivers have become more aggressive and are prone to far more risky behavior than ever before. I have no data to back this up, but I assert that a large contributing factor to the increase in motorcycle fatalities is the change in car driver behaviors, especially aggressiveness and risk taking. In my opinion, the reason that we haven't seen a corresponding increase in car fatalities is the significant and wide variety of technical improvements in automotive safety engineered into the cars, not changes in driver behavior.

The Florida legislature missed the mark. While motorcyclist training is important, the coin has two sides. They forgot to include car driver safety training as well.
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post #5 of 33 Old Jun 28th, 2008, 4:30 pm
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Re: Florida to REQUIRE MSF training

It certainly is going to be interesting to see what happens to the statistics after this change is implemented. The current statistics show huge differences in the number of injuries and deaths between those who have gained their license as a result of completing the MSF class vs those who either have no endorsement (they claim about 40% of current MC riders) or have completed the written and riding test administered either by the DMV or a private contractor. My issue is that the responsible, mature individuals are the ones that go the MSF route and are most likely inherently a safer driver. With the new plan those type of folks will of course still continue to follow that route. However, because starting Monday everyone will have to take a class the population will be diluted with the same idiots that currently don't go the route of education. I think the statistics will unfortunately swing away from the current success.

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post #6 of 33 Old Jun 28th, 2008, 10:30 pm
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Re: Florida to REQUIRE MSF training

Quote:
Originally Posted by XMagnaRider
I imagine that a law that requires MSF training will be as controversial as the ones that require helmet wear.

Personally, I am a big proponent of both training and helmet wear. Whether they should be made mandatory through legislation, I can't say....
Well I can! Unfortuneatly, in spite of all the ever bigger government nanny staters--you CAN NOT legislate common sense.
Quote:
....The Florida legislature missed the mark. While motorcyclist training is important, the coin has two sides. They forgot to include car driver safety training as well.
Yup, if you're trying to outlaw stupidity, why not take it all the way?!

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #7 of 33 Old Jun 29th, 2008, 8:56 am
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Re: Florida to REQUIRE MSF training

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn_Keen
...those who either have no endorsement (they claim about 40% of current MC riders)
That number is gonna go up dramatically, IMO. The ladies in the story had another option and took it. How many new riders are going to just not bother with the endorsement now? The MSF class is already required for anyone under 21, and I would bet the bulk of that 40% is under 21.

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post #8 of 33 Old Jun 29th, 2008, 11:17 am
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Re: Florida to REQUIRE MSF training

"The money is a tremendously big thing," said Joe Penrose, 40, who works in maintenance and got his motorcycle endorsement Friday. Penrose, of St. Pete Beach, was so happy about getting his new Harley-Davidson recently that he had its image tattooed on his arm."

Pardon me while I puke.........
At least it may be easier to identify his mangled body when they find him in the middle of an intersection after being clipped by a cage as he trys to blow through a red light.
Oh, wait. A HD tattoo would narrow him down to about a zillion riders.

Several states have mandatory rider courses. Rhode Island is one I know of. Here in Mass, you take a multiple choice quiz and get a permit. Then you mount up and take to the streets. After a time (up to a year) you can take your rider's test, which consists of doing some figure 8s in a parking lot. I guess they figure if you survive your learner's permit, you're good to go.

We do offer courses (fee), usually taken on 250cc Hondas and Kawis, and if you complete one, you automatically get your motorcycle endorsement, and can hop right on your 800 lb cruiser or 200 MPH crotch rocket. I don't know the stats, but I'd venture to guess that less than 10% of those riding in this state have actually taken the course.

It's a wonder more new riders aren't killed in their first year on the road.

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post #9 of 33 Old Jun 29th, 2008, 5:59 pm
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Re: Florida to REQUIRE MSF training

Interesting that Louisiana attempted to pass the same law, but for some reason it failed along with the appeal on wearing helmets. seemed to me a conflict! You don't have to wear a helmet but you have to take a class on safety!!!! Anyway you still have to wear a helmet and classes are not mandatory! You'd think the insurance companies would get behind all this! But who knows Insurance in La is the most expensive in the nation and is mandatory but many drive without it. My agent recomends uninsured motorist, I ask why? Isn't it mandatory to have ins.? His reply "in a perfect world!" AND life goes on!

I guess my dad is right after all. "the only things we have to do is Die and pay taxes!"

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post #10 of 33 Old Jun 29th, 2008, 10:16 pm
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Re: Florida to REQUIRE MSF training

Odd that the military requires you to take a course to ride on base (since about 1981) but no one has screamed "BIG BROTHER" about that. The military wants to keep their people alive, too much invested in them.
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post #11 of 33 Old Jun 29th, 2008, 10:38 pm
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Re: Florida to REQUIRE MSF training

First, let me say that I too am a big fan of the MSF classes and helmets and for that matter, ATGATT. But I also have a capacity concern.

I wonder what Florida will do about course capacity. And I wonder how much or if any of it has to do with MSF training. It does not sound quite like MSF training:

"The state has selected several groups around Florida to provide the classes, which last from a weekend to five days. In the class, participants take the written and driving tests previously only offered at the license offices."

I don't know about your location, but in N. Illinois, the MSF classes were full two days after the schedule was published on the web. My 28 year old son, who just bought a bike, tried to sign up but could not and went with the "fallback" plan of showing up on the first morning of class this week in case somebody did not show up, did not get in. He wants to do this for safetry reasons and so that he gets a better rate on insurance. He might get lucky later in the season, or try to get in next fall. But how many times can we expect new riders to do that. They work like most of us do.

I wonder what has been done in FL to avoid whatever classes they are giving running out of space. MSF classes have been booked / overbooked here for several years. There are just not enough trained MSF instructors and resources to go around.

Do any of the other geographical areas have enough MSF resources to handle the number of new riders as of last year, or are yours full too? The current gas shortage will probably continue to be a boon to the motorcycle and scooter industries for at least a few years. Where are those MSF recsources going to come from. Fuel for the introductory classes is costing more and more each week just like ours is.

Bil

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post #12 of 33 Old Jun 30th, 2008, 2:30 am
 
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Re: Florida to REQUIRE MSF training

Not in favor of this at all. As mentioned above, the concientious to start with seek out the course and inflate it's statistical value. I think it would make a good alternative to a ticket for traffic violators though.
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post #13 of 33 Old Jun 30th, 2008, 2:56 am
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Florida to REQUIRE MSF training

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tat_n_Telle
"The money is a tremendously big thing," said Joe Penrose, 40, who works in maintenance and got his motorcycle endorsement Friday. Penrose, of St. Pete Beach, was so happy about getting his new Harley-Davidson recently that he had its image tattooed on his arm."....
Yeah, makes perfect sense. After you spend $30k on a H-D, of course you're concerned about a $300 MSF class!

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #14 of 33 Old Jun 30th, 2008, 8:27 am
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Re: Florida to REQUIRE MSF training

In NC, the state program is not equipped to handle the numbers of students if mandatory training were to take effect. there are less than 200 of us (coaches) in the state, so it would definitely put a strain on the whole system.


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post #15 of 33 Old Jun 30th, 2008, 8:39 am
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Re: Florida to REQUIRE MSF training

Quote:
Originally Posted by WildBil
First, let me say that I too am a big fan of the MSF classes and helmets and for that matter, ATGATT. But I also have a capacity concern.

I wonder what Florida will do about course capacity. And I wonder how much or if any of it has to do with MSF training. It does not sound quite like MSF training:

"The state has selected several groups around Florida to provide the classes, which last from a weekend to five days. In the class, participants take the written and driving tests previously only offered at the license offices."

Bil
The Florida Program is defined and administered by the FLORIDA RIDER TRAINING PROGRAM (FRTP) which is a division of FL DOT. The course materials that are used are the MSF Basic Riding Course (BRC) and the Experienced Rider Course (ERC). I believe that, under the new law, the successful completion of either of those classes will meet the state requirement for obtaining a MC Endorsement on an existing driver license. The classes are offered by independent, for profit contractors, of which there are currently nearly 120 throughout the state, that are licensed and certified by the FRTP. All instructors that work for these schools are MSF trained and certified individuals that must meet and maintain their certification in order to continue teaching. Both the state and national (MSF) periodically audit these schools in order to ensure that they are meeting the standards required to maintain certification. The school that I work for maintains three locations where we offer both classes. We have always been kept busy but there is definitely been an increase in demand with higher fuel prices and that will continue to grow with the new licensing requirements. Between the three locations we currently offer about 20 classes each month and of course being in Florida we run 12 months per year. Given the current volumn of students we are scheduled out about 2 to 3 weeks. Given that fact, current capacity would seem to be reasonable. Of course no one knows how that may change down the road. One of our concerns is that, given the new found demand, we may have a bunch of new sponsors interested in making a quick buck and trying to open new schools that may be only interested in pushing students through and not maintaining reasonable standards. Not sure the FRTP has enough people to perform all the audits that will be necessary to keep up with the volumn. Oh yea, the cost for the 2 day BRC at our school is $245. The price is set by each individual school and I believe the range throughout the state is roughly $185 to $300. It'll be interesting to see what happens over the next year or so!

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post #16 of 33 Old Jun 30th, 2008, 8:29 pm
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Re: Florida to REQUIRE MSF training

I am with Rando on this one. There is no way we have the infostructure to handle mandatory training with respect to the number of ranges, RiderCoaches, Class Rooms not to mention motorcycles. We are already running at max capacity, last year I taught 21 weekends, this year I will do at least that many most likely more.

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post #17 of 33 Old Jul 1st, 2008, 11:53 pm
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Re: Florida to REQUIRE MSF training

Axiom2000 - my hat, er, lid is off to you. 21 weekends / year!. When to do find time to ride on your own and hone those skills? Wow.

Lynn_Keen - thanks for all the info. Much better than I could find on the web or in the daily news. I am sure you are right about the "get rich quick" crowd coming in with the new law.
Sure wish I could ride around the calendar. Well, this my be the year that the north pole thaws. Okay, I am going to date myself, but I remember the first time that the Navy hardened the conning tower on a nuke boat to punch through the polar ice cap. Now, it would just be, "Blow fore, blow aft'. deck watch, man the hatch. Surface."

I may get my wish someday soon, without moving south.

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post #18 of 33 Old Jul 1st, 2008, 11:54 pm
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Re: Florida to REQUIRE MSF training

Bet the tat was more than the course!

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post #19 of 33 Old Jul 2nd, 2008, 1:07 am
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Re: Florida to REQUIRE MSF training

Quote:
Originally Posted by jayjacobson
Well I can! Unfortuneatly, in spite of all the ever bigger government nanny staters--you CAN NOT legislate common sense.

Yup, if you're trying to outlaw stupidity, why not take it all the way?!
Jay,

You are the voice of reason. "Freedom first" seems to get overlooked in cases like this.
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post #20 of 33 Old Jul 2nd, 2008, 6:12 am
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Florida to REQUIRE MSF training

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oisin
Jay,

You are the voice of reason. "Freedom first" seems to get overlooked in cases like this.
You know, I was thinking (sorry in advance) that maybe we should talk to the guy(s) responsible for the universal sticker that is found on EVERY hair dryer cord sold in the USA. You know, "don't use this appliance while in the bathtub." I'm sure he/they could bring a little common sense to this mess!

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #21 of 33 Old Jul 2nd, 2008, 9:52 pm
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Re: Florida to REQUIRE MSF training

Quote:
Originally Posted by jayjacobson
You know, I was thinking (sorry in advance) that maybe we should talk to the guy(s) responsible for the universal sticker that is found on EVERY hair dryer cord sold in the USA. You know, "don't use this appliance while in the bathtub." I'm sure he/they could bring a little common sense to this mess!
Motorcycles are dangerous and there are a lot of stupid people out there. Allowing the Government to protect these individuals from themselves is folly. Motorcyclists are a passive bunch when it comes to individual liberties. They seem willing to allow the Government (at all levels ) to run the show .
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post #22 of 33 Old Jul 29th, 2008, 11:22 am
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Re: Florida to REQUIRE MSF training

Mandatory training? I see both sides of it. We would need a lot more infrastructure to handle it, and yeah it might tick people off. But what is even one life that it would save worth? I had been riding motorcycles since I was 6 or 7 yrs old and thought I knew how to ride. Until I became a motorcop and went through that training. Wow!! I learned a lot. It has greatly improved my skills and saved my life on several occasions. I think the same would apply to someone that took the MSF course. The RIDE courses are better in my opinion. Taught by motorcops with tons of experience. But any training is better than none...I advise everyone riding to take both. Or all you can get.

From the other view point. I'm also a wreck reconstructionist with a specialty in motorcycle wreck investigations. Just about every wreck I've worked (90+%) involving motorcycles I feel could have been avoided by the rider. If not totally, then at least made less severe. Here is where training comes in. Number one reason...BRAKING!! Until we get car drivers use to looking for us, we need to know how to avoid their dumba** when they try to run us over. And braking saves lives. I hear people bragging about how fast their bike is, and I throw them by saying, "So? How well does it stop? Because that's what's gonna save your hide." So for those that haven't had any proper emergency braking training yet...get it!! Front brake, front brake, front brake! It's not a car..the back isn't doing much for you. LOL.

I agree too with the comment on car driver training. Should be a block in it about not LOOKING for motorcycles, but SEEING them. Guess maybe when cell phones, fast food, screaming kids, and singing along with the radio are banned..they'll get around to it. Point being...too many distractions for the average driver...DON'T RELY ON THEIR SKILL LEVEL TO SAVE YOUR LIFE!!

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post #23 of 33 Old Jul 29th, 2008, 12:40 pm
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Re: Florida to REQUIRE MSF training

Hot topic! While I've suggested to a number of friends the MSF course is ideal for newbies as well as old timers. I'm not a proponent of mandating training or helmet wear (seat belts neither for that matter). I just don't like too much government...even if it is in my best interest....let me decide.

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post #24 of 33 Old Jul 29th, 2008, 12:43 pm
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Re: Florida to REQUIRE MSF training

Quote:
Originally Posted by longbowhunter
Mandatory training? I see both sides of it. We would need a lot more infrastructure to handle it, and yeah it might tick people off. But what is even one life that it would save worth?
That's the million $ question. How do you balance freedom with safety? How much cost and force of law is justified to save a life? No life has infinite value, and no life is completely worthless (although I think a few people get close).

But I find this utilitarian approach a moot point. It's not just a question of what the results are. There are individual liberties people should have, and they shouldn't be taken away, through the violence of law, for their own or someone else's good. There has to be a better way.

Insurance companies really should be the catalyst for these things. Instead of a "one size fits all", do it because "it's the law", etc., etc., insurance companies have an incentive to balance costs and risks vs quality of service, something the state does not have. I can certainly see higher rates for people who don't take a safety course, just like they have higher rates for people with speeding tickets. And if you don't agree with taking the course, no one is going to use force to get you to comply, they'll just cancel your policy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by longbowhunter
I had been riding motorcycles since I was 6 or 7 yrs old and thought I knew how to ride. Until I became a motorcop and went through that training. Wow!! I learned a lot. It has greatly improved my skills and saved my life on several occasions. I think the same would apply to someone that took the MSF course. The RIDE courses are better in my opinion. Taught by motorcops with tons of experience. But any training is better than none...I advise everyone riding to take both. Or all you can get.
I'm so jealous. I do plan on taking a MSF course soon, but you use your own bike, and you're going to limit yourself because you don't want to drop it. But you guys use state-owned bikes, and it's expected you'll push the limits until you drop it, learning precisely what you can and can't do. You can practice collision avoidance and not worry about scratching the paint.

I'm hesitant when practicing tight U turns on the street, because I'm afraid to push it to the point where it goes over, but I'd really like to lean into it and just do circles to get a feel for how tight a radius I can do. If there was a way to take a course using a bike I wouldn't mind scratching up, I'd be on that in a heartbeat.

When a government takes over a people’s economic life it becomes absolute, and when it has become absolute it destroys the arts, the minds, the liberties and the meaning of the people it governs.
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post #25 of 33 Old Jul 30th, 2008, 12:11 pm
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Re: Florida to REQUIRE MSF training

I think that in RI it's mandatory. Also if I remember right after the 2 or 3 year price break on the insurance from taking the BRC you that you can take the ERC every 2-3 years and keep the insurance break. By taking the ERC it will hopefully keep those bad habits to a minimum.

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post #26 of 33 Old Jul 31st, 2008, 3:57 am
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Re: Florida to REQUIRE MSF training

Quote:
Originally Posted by longbowhunter
....I'm also a wreck reconstructionist with a specialty in motorcycle wreck investigations....
Greetings Todd! Yeah, I'm a wreck reconstructionist also. It would seem that my specialty is in life reconstruction. For 12 hours a night, all night, 5-6 nights per week, people want me to reconstruct their lives--in an instant--after they have spent a lifetime wrecking them! Perhaps you might know something about this?!

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post #27 of 33 Old Jul 31st, 2008, 7:05 am
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Re: Florida to REQUIRE MSF training

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobnoxous
That's the million $ question. How do you balance freedom with safety? How much cost and force of law is justified to save a life? No life has infinite value, and no life is completely worthless (although I think a few people get close).

But I find this utilitarian approach a moot point. It's not just a question of what the results are. There are individual liberties people should have, and they shouldn't be taken away, through the violence of law, for their own or someone else's good. There has to be a better way.


Are you saying that as a society, we shouldn't have rules that require people to be trained before they engage in an activity that could injure or kill others? If they want to kill themselves, that's their business, but others?

Just like standard driver training for an automobile is not adequate for driving a Tractor-trailer rig, it's not adequate for a motorcycle. That's why there are different endorsements on your driver license. Different vehicles require different training.

With any activity there is risk. If a person is aware of the risk and decides to perform the activity anyway, I believe that the individual made an informed decision. However, if an individual has no idea of the risk, while it may be Darwin in action, it is not an informed decision. Part of knowing what the risk can be is knowing what your skill level is while on a motorcycle.

How many new riders know how to corner properly? How many know how to swerve? Brake without locking up the rear brake? (I know...BMWs don't have to worry about that!) What to do if they DO lock the rear brake? If they are trained properly, they know the basics of accident avoidance. Granted, newly trained riders aren't perfect, but at least they have the basic knowledge and can put it into practice to minimize their, and other peoples risk.

I understand the growing pains of inadequate infrastructure. But it is possible. I've only coached 3 classes here in the Detroit Metro area this year, but I've trained over 200 students. We have an average of 72 students for a one weekend BRC. We'll run two ranges and have 24 students per range. We split them into two groups of 12. We run exercises 1-5 on the first group...switch...run 1-5 on the second group...switch again....etc. It makes for some LONG days, but we do it all the time. For a 2 weekend BRC, we can have as many as 144 students with 4 ranges and 3 groups. And we have more than 8 community colleges where we train.

The Detroit-Metro Regional Consortium Motorcycle Safety Education Program trains several thousand students every year. The cost is $25.00. That's not a typo. $25.00. The State of Michigan subsidizes the classes. The money comes from motorcycle license fees and grants from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.

Now, I've said this before on this board, and I'll more than likely say it again. I have been an undertaker for 10+ years, and an avid motorcyclist for over 30. Reviewing my personal records, in the decade that I have been caring for the dead, I have had 21 motorcycle related fatalities. Each and every one is a tragedy for the family and friends they leave behind. And each one left a mark on me as well.

So let me share with all of you my totally unscientific observations of these 21 deaths.

According to the death certificates:

17 had been drinking
8 were under the age of 25
9 were over 40
4 were between 25 and 40

According to what I learned from family and friends:

7 of 8 that were under 25 were on sport bikes, 1 on a dirt bike.
15 were single vehicle accidents....just the bike. No car, truck or van. Just trees, guard rails, and 2 were deer collisions. Most common cause of the crash: Failure to negotiate a curve.

Of the 7 crashes that DID involve another vehicle, it was the classic case of “they just didn’t see the bike,” and in 4 of those cases the driver of the other vehicle was on a cell phone.

The 4 that were between 25 and 40 were all on Harleys.

6 of the 9 that were over 40 were on some kind of touring bike.

But the most important “statistic” of all: 15 out of 21 did not have an endorsement on their license (which implies that they didn't have formal training), and out of the 6 that did have an endorsement, no one....not one person had taken any kind of formal training.

Just food for thought. I'll get off my soapbox now.


Dave
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post #28 of 33 Old Jul 31st, 2008, 7:13 am
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Re: Florida to REQUIRE MSF training

As a fairly new MSF coach here in Northern Illinois I can attest to the fact that we could NOT handle the masses if this law was imposed in Illinois. NIU has 16 sites and added 72 classes. We still are booked solid with out mandatory requirements.

In the classes I have coached I would estimate that 30 - 35% are people less than 40 years old. The rest are over forty. In Illinois the ONLY people required to take the MSF to obtain a license are 16 & 17 year olds. Once you are 18 you can get license through the Secretary of State.

As an instructor we see people that pass the course but definitely are NOT ready to ride on the street. As instructors we can only hope and pray that some of what we attempted to teach them will stay with them when and if they get a bike.

In northern Illinois only about 45% of the people that complete the course get their license. Maybe taking the course make some people realize that riding a bike is not for them. In this respect, and if this is a true statement, then maybe requiring MC training would help reduce accidents, other wise is it a money making scheme? Who knows....

Roy

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post #29 of 33 Old Jul 31st, 2008, 11:30 am
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Re: Florida to REQUIRE MSF training

The real problem is the mentality of the people attracted to motorcycles through image and consumerism rather than transport. Not everyone should juggle chainsaws , and motorcycles are not for everyone.

Motorcycling requires endless hours of training year in and year out, no one ever graduates because there is always need for improved skills in the street. It is challenging,often uncomfortable and it requires incredible commitment to accomplish proficiency. Retaining those skills over time means that the serious motorcyclist in undergoing professional development every time they ride which ... hopefully is 365 days a year.

Sadly, every year states and individuals spend millions training people who have no idea of what they are getting into. My experience has been that six months after training most of the novices have moved on to their next consumer obsession. Sadly, they leave either out of disinterest , or fear of something they did not understand in the first place .

If we take the HOLLYWOOD out of motorcycling and inform the people of its realities, then I think there will be more than enough training to go around; less deaths from motorcycling and less money wasted on uninformed poseurs.

P.S. I have worked in all areas of the motorcycle business for 30+ years including 14 years as an instructor (Ridercoach) who worked 40 to 45 classes a year. That's over 7,500 students!

Last edited by Oisin; Jul 31st, 2008 at 3:32 pm.
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post #30 of 33 Old Jul 31st, 2008, 1:28 pm
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Re: Florida to REQUIRE MSF training

Quote:
Originally Posted by dlbushey


Are you saying that as a society, we shouldn't have rules that require people to be trained before they engage in an activity that could injure or kill others? If they want to kill themselves, that's their business, but others?
I'm not saying that Dave. What I'm saying is that the government is not the right way to achieve this.

Of course people want others on the road to have some sort of training, but why not let insurance companies handle this? Require insurance, period. Companies have an incentive to balance the benefits of training with the cost and hassle. The government does not. If the driver screws up, the insurance company will have to pay. If the government screws up, they have immunity for most things. If they do pay, it's really us that pay.

People can always just ignore laws, so passing a law, even if it's "good", doesn't make everything perfect. You noted how many deaths you've seen where people didn't have motorcycle endorsements. Why would requiring an MSF course suddenly make people comply and get MSF training, when they didn't even do the rather simple licensing requirement?

Government monopolies do not promote efficiency, they promote largess and CYA. Every failure of the government becomes an excuse to take more money. Private, voluntary methods could do this very easily, and it'd be cheaper and more fair than a state run system, and probably result in much better riders, IMHO.

When a government takes over a people’s economic life it becomes absolute, and when it has become absolute it destroys the arts, the minds, the liberties and the meaning of the people it governs.
- Maxwell Anderson

Bob
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post #31 of 33 Old Aug 5th, 2008, 10:26 pm
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Re: Florida to REQUIRE MSF training

In Texas, BRC is optional (for most) where completion of BRC waives the DPS (DMV) road test and the written test is still required . (There are provisions for those younger than 17 to get the M license). As RiderCoaches, we are certified to give the Skills Test at the end of the BRC; that waives the road test but DPS still has the option to require the road test (1 person that we know of got the test waaaaay back when the BRC was first offered; chip on the rider's shoulder may have contributed). Completion of the BRC also allows those over 21 to ride without a helmet.

Anyway, the data I'm looking for from the state or NHTSA is how may have died that completed the BRC? I think if the data shows contrasting results, the BRC could be marketed to be a "proven" life saver. ". . . more of a skill of eyes and mind than hands and feet." (MSF)

Oh, almost forgot. Our company, MTC, only charges $190 for the BRC. $300 for the BRC is closer to the price charged for one particularly branded motorcycle.

Ride safe,
Curt

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post #32 of 33 Old Aug 5th, 2008, 11:30 pm
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Re: Florida to REQUIRE MSF training

Be careful with stats. The sample population can ruin your day.

At the MOA, one of the seminars was on cornering, given by an experiences rider-coach. There were well over 85 in the room, and he asked for a show of hands of who took the BRC or ERC courses - then who had accidents more serious that just bike drops. The then asked who had never taken either course, and how many had accidents.

Self-taught was much safer.

Probably true that day. But a dangerous statistic. The MOA is a pretty old crowd, but then, what BMW crowd isn't.

When I started riding a 125 cc bike at 14 on a farm, there was no BRC to take. When I got on the road a couple years later, there was not a heck of a lot of traffic, and the superlabs were just going up around the country. Unless you are growning up in Montana, Wyoming or a few other sparsely populated places today, there are millions more people and 10,000 more vehicles around you than I had then, and IMHO its crucial today.

I also grew up, like many of us on this forum, when the Honda 350 was a big bike. Nobody knew what a liter+ bike was [heck, few of us in the US knew what a liter was] and nothing on two wheels approached 850 lbs dry.

Ask the question the right way, and I think you will find that that training classes save lives. But be mindful of who you are polling. I am not saying cook the results, and I am not saying that an ERC course every year or two doesn't make us better. I think it does. But make sure your are comparing apples to apples, unlike the guy who polled the MOA audience in Gillette.

My concern with mandatory BRC classes continues to be that the number of available seats needs to match the number of new riders. With the potential for new bikers driven by the price of fuel, that is a potenitally big hill to climb. As you know, rider-coaches like yourself don't grow on trees, and the startup costs for BRC classes, certification, etc, is fairly steep in some states. In fact, a few limit it to state run classes.

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post #33 of 33 Old Aug 6th, 2008, 4:54 am
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Re: Florida to REQUIRE MSF training

The reason I heard that this law was passed was a comprise between the State and ABATE. The stated wanted to bring the helmet law back, but ABATE did not. ABATE has a strong influence on motorcycle safety, believe or not. So both agreed on the required training. Just what I heard from friend that works at the Capital.

John
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