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post #1 of 41 Old Jun 27th, 2008, 2:56 am Thread Starter
 
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Atgatt

Found this article (hope people can zoom in on the pictures and read it) and wondered what others thought. Interesting point of view that wearing all the safety gear in the wrong temps could actually be more likely to cause an accident and injury.

I guess you can't argue with the medical side of things when it comes to the symptons and facts on hydration etc but still not sure sure on where I stand on it. Interesting that some police forces in hot areas dont go with the full leather uniform.

Any opinions?
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post #2 of 41 Old Jun 27th, 2008, 4:12 am
 
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Re: Atgatt

Ummm, what article?
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post #3 of 41 Old Jun 27th, 2008, 5:43 am Thread Starter
 
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Re: Atgatt

Sorry the attachments did not work will try to add them again


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post #4 of 41 Old Jun 27th, 2008, 7:00 am
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Re: Atgatt

I didn't see the article, but I've always heard that riding without gear in hot weather is MORE likely to dehydrate you because of exposure of the skin to wind and sun. I wear my leathers and helmet for all serious travelling even in the summer and feel more protected from the ravages of dyhydration...not to mention the road.

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post #5 of 41 Old Jun 27th, 2008, 10:01 am
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Re: Atgatt

I have found that if it's too hot to ride with all the gear, I take the truck. For commuting. It's short ride, less than 3 miles for me.

I am at a point in life where I can't make myself ride in less than jacket, boots, pants, ff helmet, gloves.

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post #6 of 41 Old Jun 27th, 2008, 12:11 pm
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Re: Atgatt

I have ridden in full leathers (perf) at 100+ for years, and at highway speed there isn't a problem. Stop & go like a moto officer, huge problem! You need that air moving. I know the motocorps around here have fabric riding gear, and often dispose of the jacket in hot weather. I ride with mesh now, but doubt if that would work well for police with official patches needing to be on the gear. I'm a safety kinda guy so never ride without jacket, boots, gloves and helmet. Although I admit I have occasionally ridden in jeans not riding pants for commuting. Still looking to buy Sliders or Draggin' jeans to plug that hole in my safety net.

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post #7 of 41 Old Jun 27th, 2008, 12:53 pm
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Re: Atgatt

Quote:
Originally Posted by rando
I have found that if it's too hot to ride with all the gear, I take the truck. For commuting. It's short ride, less than 3 miles for me.

I am at a point in life where I can't make myself ride in less than jacket, boots, pants, ff helmet, gloves.

Randy
I agree it's only about 6 miles to work straight down the highway. At 100 plus degrees outside it just aint worth riding to work.

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post #8 of 41 Old Jun 27th, 2008, 4:37 pm
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Re: Atgatt

Just recently bought a pair of draggin jeans from aerostitch for shorter rides around town. They are very comfortable. Don't know how protective they would be -- better than regular jeans I suppose. They have kevlar in the knees and butt.

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post #9 of 41 Old Jun 27th, 2008, 6:52 pm
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Re: Atgatt

This site is full of stories of riders with mishaps that were wearing their gear or wish they were wearing all the gear. You just have to read some of them to be convinced.

Just Go
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post #10 of 41 Old Jun 27th, 2008, 7:02 pm
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Re: Atgatt

I believe ATGATT means ATGATT.

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post #11 of 41 Old Jun 27th, 2008, 9:00 pm
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Re: Atgatt

Silly question. What does ATGATT really stand for? "All The Gear And The Training" maybe "A Totally Gruesome Accident Tenderizes Toes"?

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post #12 of 41 Old Jun 27th, 2008, 9:22 pm
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Re: Atgatt

Quote:
Originally Posted by BennyBob
Silly question. What does ATGATT really stand for? "All The Gear And The Training" maybe "A Totally Gruesome Accident Tenderizes Toes"?
All the gear all the time, is what Iv'e been told.
But I like your version with the toes. Maybe there are some other variations around.

Still -
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post #13 of 41 Old Jun 27th, 2008, 9:32 pm
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Re: Atgatt

Thanks Phydough. Makes sense even if it's not as fun. There's a lot of acronyms out here that I've seen for years but never known exactly what they mean.

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post #14 of 41 Old Jun 28th, 2008, 1:33 am Thread Starter
 
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Re: Atgatt

Sorry but have not been able to attach the two images. Have uploaded them with the attachment button and all seems to have worked but no images....any ideas what I am doing wrong? File format is jpeg.

Thanks Mike.
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post #15 of 41 Old Jun 28th, 2008, 6:41 am
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Re: Atgatt

I ride in jeans all the time. I haven't bought any of those fancy ridin' britches yet. I wear my mesh jacket but it gets hot quick when you stop. A guy bought a new Harley here last week and made it a mile and wiped it out where two major highways meet. He had some serious injuries. Do they make Kevlar doorags? It's a major gamble but many are willing to take it......

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post #16 of 41 Old Jun 28th, 2008, 8:24 am
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Re: Atgatt

Getting hot here in the mountain west...

I went for a ride yesterday wearing my shorty gloves instead of the full ones. I felt so... daring.

Yes, thank you, I survived to make it home, boy that was a close one.

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post #17 of 41 Old Jun 28th, 2008, 12:24 pm
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Atgatt

Quote:
Originally Posted by 355pilot
....Interesting point of view that wearing all the safety gear in the wrong temps could actually be more likely to cause an accident and injury....
Yes, if you're dehydrated, and we've all felt the symptoms, then that is a very serious and dangerous condition to be in at any time, much less operating a motor vehicle.

Sometimes, dehydration may have only one symptom. A friend felt his heart racing at the end of a Vegas Summer day and thought he was having cardiac issues. He was--due to dehydration! A quick run to ER verified my suspicions.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #18 of 41 Old Jun 28th, 2008, 1:20 pm
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Re: Atgatt

If its over 70 I'm in jeans ,t-shirt and a ball cap. When its cooler I wear the jacket and helmet.
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post #19 of 41 Old Jun 28th, 2008, 2:04 pm
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Re: Atgatt

Cortech HRX fully armored leather and mesh jacket, full face helmet, Joe Rocket Steel jeans, gel padded full gloves and it gets near or over 100 here almost every day in the summer, with 80%+ humidity. Sure it gets hot, but anything less isn't worth the risk.
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post #20 of 41 Old Jun 28th, 2008, 3:33 pm
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Re: Atgatt

Even in the heat.
We rode with helmets, gloves, boots and our tour master, jackets and pants even 100 degrees plus in Texas. That concrete doesn't get any softer just because its hot out. The gear also insulates from the heat. Frequent stops to cool off and rehydrate is a must.

Just Go
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post #21 of 41 Old Jun 28th, 2008, 4:03 pm
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Re: Atgatt

On the way to Lone Star in Austin today we were following a Triumph sportbike that went down after getting into a tank slapper at around 40mph crossing railroad lines. The bike slid for some 2-300 yards, the rider not too far behind.

It was a young lad, who thankfully was wearing a full face helmet, heavy cortech jacket, jeans and boots. Unfortunately he didn't have any gloves on.

The right side of the jacket was worn through, as were his jeans at the knee, his hand was a bit of a mess, shaken up but otherwise looked ok thanks to him actually wearing more than a doorag and t-shirt. We called 911 and the EMS folks took him off to check him out.

I said to SWMBO afterwards , if thats the sort of damage that can happen at 40mph, I'm sure glad that even in the heat we have here right now, that we practise ATGATT every time, no matter what the temptation to dress down.
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post #22 of 41 Old Jun 28th, 2008, 7:20 pm
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Re: Atgatt

Quote:
Originally Posted by 355pilot
Sorry but have not been able to attach the two images. Have uploaded them with the attachment button and all seems to have worked but no images....any ideas what I am doing wrong? File format is jpeg.

Thanks Mike.
Mike,

They may be too big to post. I usually try to get them down to 200kb or less.

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post #23 of 41 Old Jun 28th, 2008, 8:01 pm
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Atgatt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob1200rtc1
If its over 70 I'm in jeans ,t-shirt and a ball cap. When its cooler I wear the jacket and helmet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwnahas
....That concrete doesn't get any softer just because its hot out....
Actually, I checked with CalTrans. They stated that the rode DOES get softer at 70 and above. By 100 it's slightly harder than mush! WTF?

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #24 of 41 Old Jun 28th, 2008, 8:50 pm
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Re: Atgatt

Quote:
Originally Posted by jayjacobson
Actually, I checked with CalTrans. They stated that the rode DOES get softer at 70 and above. By 100 it's slightly harder than mush! WTF?
Tar gets softer with heat, not concrete though...

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post #25 of 41 Old Jun 28th, 2008, 9:22 pm
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Re: Atgatt

Quote:
Originally Posted by jayjacobson
Yes, if you're dehydrated, and we've all felt the symptoms, then that is a very serious and dangerous condition to be in at any time, much less operating a motor vehicle.
I find that a 2 Liter Camelback filled with ice water at the beginning of a ride helps keep you alert and in the saddle longer.

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post #26 of 41 Old Jun 28th, 2008, 9:33 pm
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Re: Atgatt

Yes, there is some serious traction lost when the surface temperature of asphalt gets too hot. Just check what happens to riders on the Tour de France.

Meanwhile, I do get a lot of people asking the same old question, "Aren't you hot wearing all that gear?" Sure it's hot: riding boots, Olympic mesh pants over jeans, CorTech mesh jacket, full helmet and full leather gloves. But when I'm doing 70 mph, the only stuff between me and the pavement is what I'm wearing. Now that's a chilly thought. (Pardon the pun). So for all the riders with their helmets, t-shirts, cutoffs and sneakers, "Let me tie you to the bumper of my truck and take you for a tow across the parking lot of your choice." Hmm..today's special - debridement as an appetizer followed by a serious order of skin graft du jour.

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post #27 of 41 Old Jun 28th, 2008, 9:52 pm
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Re: Atgatt

I was a t a gas station a couple weeks ago and was asked if I was "uncomfortable" in all my gear. My response was that it was alot more comfortable than roadrash.

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post #28 of 41 Old Jun 28th, 2008, 10:22 pm
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Re: Atgatt

I don't beleive in the one suit does all routine, so I have multiple suits to wear. Or just combinations of items. At no time do I wear street clothes.

My light weight suit is an all mesh setup. I like it in the 80+ range.

My middle weight suit is an Olympia Recon 2 pants/jacket combination. I like it in the 65+ range, but below 90. I can wear it above 90, but if I'm stopped for long periods I will get hot.

My heavy weight suit is BMW City Jeans and a Textile jacket with liner. Anything below 65 is okay with it so far. In Southern CA we don't get down to freezing, so this is about as much as I need for lower temps.

In all cases I wear nothing except my underwear beneath these suits. All suits are armored with CE approved armor. No multiple layers. No heated clothing. I do have a one piece rain suit in case that is needed, but that's about it. Good gloves (multiple pairs for different temps once again), a helmet, and boots. Now I'm an ATGATT rider.

Of course, when I was younger and poorer, I tried to use jeans and jean jackets. I went down one time at 50 mph and vaporized the entire back of my jean jacket, jean shirt, and a few holes in my pants. I also lost a 4 x 4 patch of skin of my back. At that I was lucky as I spent most of my skid on top of the motorcycle (don't ask how I managed it as I have no idea I just did it) until I got kicked off then slid on to oncoming traffic and decided to roll back in my lane when I saw a blue truck with a women driver (freaking too!) laying on the brakes (blue smoke everywhere) heading my way.

My riding gear got better and better as I got older or got better jobs. But even so, any gear is better than no gear. The idiots I see wearing shorts and not much else really give me pause. Some of the harley riders make me think if they go down, they'll deserve everything they get for the "look" they want. If I get laughed at in my spaceman garb, at least I know I'm better prepared than I used ot be for a ride.

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post #29 of 41 Old Jun 28th, 2008, 10:45 pm
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Atgatt

Quote:
Originally Posted by zippy_gg
Tar gets softer with heat, not concrete though...
Gilles, CalTrans wouldn't vouch for other state's concrete, but they said ours starts softening at 70 degrees. They didn't want the guys in short sleeves and baseball caps to go down on anything to hard....
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlbushey
I find that a 2 Liter Camelback filled with ice water at the beginning of a ride helps keep you alert and in the saddle longer.
Yup! Great over riot gear, also. Don't ask how I know....
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArthurKnowles
....In all cases I wear nothing except my underwear beneath these suits....
+1! Have you gotten the "space alien" looks yet, when you make a pit stop, cause noone has ever seen mesh kevlar?

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #30 of 41 Old Jun 28th, 2008, 11:06 pm
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Re: Atgatt

I used to be one of those that didn't wear ATTGAT, but after reading some articles on age & its effect on surviving an accident, I figured I'd better get with the program. And besides that, clothing technology has come a long way. I now wear Motoport Air Mesh kevlar jacket & pants along with leather gloves and combat style boots. If it's a little warm out, I'll wear Under Armor heat gear under the kevlar. If I'm still to warm, I'll put on a phase change vest and put a phase change liner in my helmet. The helmet liner only lasts about 45 minutes or so, but the vest lasts quite a while longer and goes a lot further to cool me off.

I live in MN, which can be relatively cool in the summer, but there are still days that can be quite miserable on a bike. I would think phase change vests would be very popular in places like Florida or Texas.

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post #31 of 41 Old Jun 29th, 2008, 12:39 am
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Re: Atgatt

Quote:
Originally Posted by 355pilot
Interesting point of view that wearing all the safety gear in the wrong temps could actually be more likely to cause an accident and injury.
Sounds a lot like the folks who think that since wearing a helmet has few issues that it is therefore unsafe and they shouldn't have to wear it.

I wear the gear all the time. There are occasions when it gets too hot to ride with all the gear so I take the cage. Makes more sense to me than the risks involved in wearing less gear. Like deciding which of my precious appendages am I willing to put at risk for today's comfort. This is usually when I have to show up ready for a meeting. Wearing all the gear is one thing, wearing it over office clothes is something else. Can't show up for that big presentation at the plant across town looking like I ran a 10K in my dress shirt. Granted in San Diego we don't see the extremes some of you do, but we do have our days.

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post #32 of 41 Old Jun 29th, 2008, 3:25 am Thread Starter
 
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Re: Atgatt

Hi guys, no matter what it will not accept the attahments so I can not post the article at present. I will try and use an OCR program over the next day or two to capture the text and then paste it on here.

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post #33 of 41 Old Jun 29th, 2008, 4:08 am
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Re: Atgatt

Just happened to be hangin at the local Beemer barn in Orange Ca. today when a writer for "Motorcycle Consumer" came by to show off the cooling vest he was wearing. He says you fill your camleback with ice and its pumped (12volt) thru the vest, no condensation!
He mentioned it's only out a week but can be found at www.veskimo.com.
He also had no idea about price.

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post #34 of 41 Old Jun 29th, 2008, 8:36 am
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Re: Atgatt

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTExfisher
Just happened to be hangin at the local Beemer barn in Orange Ca. today when a writer for "Motorcycle Consumer" came by to show off the cooling vest he was wearing. He says you fill your camleback with ice and its pumped (12volt) thru the vest, no condensation!
He mentioned it's only out a week but can be found at www.veskimo.com.
He also had no idea about price.
This is one of those things that fall into the 'why the hell didn't I think of that" category. Great idea if it really works. The downside to phase change vests is they need to be recharged occasionally in a cooler or fridge or freezer.

I'd like to see some more reports on how well this product works in very hot conditions, but it is certainly a step in the right direction. Sure wish they'd come up with a helmet liner like this or at least a mini air-conditioner that would pump cool air into a helmet.

Kevin
'06 K1200LT
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post #35 of 41 Old Jun 29th, 2008, 1:28 pm
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Re: Atgatt

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonnata
This is one of those things that fall into the 'why the hell didn't I think of that" category. Great idea if it really works. The downside to phase change vests is they need to be recharged occasionally in a cooler or fridge or freezer.

I'd like to see some more reports on how well this product works in very hot conditions, but it is certainly a step in the right direction. Sure wish they'd come up with a helmet liner like this or at least a mini air-conditioner that would pump cool air into a helmet.
Looks like the NASCAR stuff is finally branching out, with smaller units fitting smaller environments. And the 'smaller environment' market is growing leaps and bounds with folks wanting to conserve on gas costs and thus buying scooters and such. Sure wish Santa made mid-year visits!!
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post #36 of 41 Old Jun 29th, 2008, 9:07 pm
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Re: Atgatt

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTExfisher
He mentioned it's only out a week but can be found at www.veskimo.com.
He also had no idea about price.
Veskimo Personal Cooling System

Price: $349.00

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post #37 of 41 Old Jun 29th, 2008, 9:20 pm
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Re: Atgatt

Here is are a couple of systems by coolshirt http://www.coolshirt.net/motorcycle-cool-bag.html

http://www.coolshirt.net/racing-pro-air.html

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post #38 of 41 Old Jun 29th, 2008, 10:11 pm
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Re: Atgatt

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a mini air-conditioner that would pump cool air into a helmet.
Yeah, but then your face shield would fog up.
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post #39 of 41 Old Jul 1st, 2008, 2:32 am Thread Starter
 
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Re: Atgatt





Melting point
This summer it might not be a lack of
- skill that causes accidents; the
combination of full leathers, spirited riding and hot weather could be critical factors. John Westlake investigates


Everyone knows wearing full leathers is sensible. But what if that suit, along with your back protector and full-face helmet, actually increases the chances of crashing? This isn’t as daft as it seems. Every one of the exercise physiologists Bike interviewed suggested dehydration and overheating could be a contributory factor in the spate of deaths and serious injuries that occur each summer. They cited numerous studies proving a link between small drops in hydration and big losses in cognitive function (the ability to concentrate and make fast, accurate decisions). Everyone from air traffic controllers to water polo players have been shown to make more mistakes when they get dehydrated.
And we’re not talking about being parched -
a 1% drop in hydration will reduce physical
performance by around 10%
and produce a marked
drop in cognitive function. Most people don’t even
feel thirsty until their hydration drops by 2%.

So, on the one hand we’ve got evidence from
police crash investigators saying that most serious
crashes involve a sunny summer afternoon,
a sports bike rider in full kit, a demanding A-road
and no other vehicles. And on the other hand we have exercise physiologists saying the most effective way to dehydrate someone is to put them in a warm environment, encase them in an insulative suit that does not allow sweat to evaporate from the skin and then make them exercise (such as muscling a bike down the A606).
‘There’s definitely a link between getting too hot and a drop-off in cognitive function,’ says Dr Ric Lovell, a sports
physiologist from Hull University. ‘There is all sorts of data across all sorts of sports to show that technical decision making is impaired when exercise is taken in the beat, and body temperature rises.’
One of the clearest studies involved subjecting eight men to various degrees of dehydration and then making them complete physical and mental tests. It found reaction times were unaffected, but the subjects’ ability to complete an ‘unstable tracking task’ was greatly diminished. This task, which involved using a joystick to keep


An erratic blob inside a box on a computer screen is a standard measure of hand-eye coordination.
Also, the scientists found the men did not make worse decisions when dehydrated; they just took much longer to make them. It’s not difficult to work out the implications of these two findings: as your, ability to transfer the information from your eyes to the controls reduces, so does the speed at which you can make decisions.
Could this help explain some of the mid-summer crashes where:
riders appear to just run off the road round corners? ‘That information about unstable tracking links directly with WYSIWYG What You See Is Where You Go,’ says Inspector Andy McManus, who heads up a team of crash investigators in Lincolnshire. ‘When people appear to run out of talent and crash, the main reason is that they see something late and then panic brake.’
Motorcycle trainers have also seen the link between dehydration and poor performance. Norman Leader is boss of Aspen Rider Training in London: ‘It’s worse on Direct Access courses because people tend to come in full leathers. You can detect a downgrade in their performance on a hot day - you can see they’re slower to see overtaking opportunities or hazards, and then they start to lose the ability to control the bike properly.’
It’s possible some of the fatalities are a direct result of thermal strain - a close cousin of dehydration (see below). If the body’s core temperature rises by a couple of degrees from is normal 37.5°, the results can be catastrophic. ‘People just collapse when they’re exercising in our lab, and these young blokes,’ says Dr James Betts, a lecturer in exercise physio at Bath University. ‘If you’ve got a 40-year-old motorcyclist who’s mildly overweight, it’s conceivable that not only would their judgment be impaired but some could be losing consciousness.’
So, what to do? Neutralising the symptoms is fairly easy. Dehydration can be fixed fast by swigging water, and thermal strain can be reduced by sitting in the shade, but are you really going to stop every 20 minutes to sit under a tree drinking water?
The most radical solution is to weigh up the risks and decide no:
to wear leathers - to judge the hazards of overheating are greater than the benefits of protective kit, The French police, for example. make exactly this judgment in summer, choosing to fly round on their FJR5 wearing a short-sleeved shirt, shirt nylon slacks and a gun Join the debate on www.bikemagazine.co.uk


FEELING THE HEAT
THE DEHYDRATION
SPIRAL OF DOOM
Your brain decides to try and cool things down if it detects that your core temperature (deep inside the gut) is increasing. This is important — the body is highly sensitive to temperature (in some people a rise in core temperature of 0.5 degrees is enough to start degrading their physical and mental abilities). Blood is immediately redirected to your skin, where the veins dilate to help

shed heat. That’s why you go red in the face. You also start sweating, and the hairs on your skin stand on end. As you sweat, the volume of your blood drops because, bizarrely, that’s where most of the liquid for sweating comes from. Normally, sweating works because it evaporates and cools the skin. But in leathers it doesn’t so you keep getting hotter, and keep sweating, and keep lowering your blood volume. A smaller total volume of blood is

Now trying to go to the skin (for cooling), the muscles (bike control) and the brain (decisions). Things start to give. You become weaker, less able to make fast decisions, and still you get hotter. This is called thermal strain. Eventually your internal organs start to cook and the brain says enough. You feel disorientated and sick. Keep going and the brain shuts down in an attempt to stop you dying. That’s when you black out, not ideal on the A606.







The basic text of the article sorry about the type but all my OCR program could come up with.







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post #40 of 41 Old Jul 5th, 2008, 6:21 am
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Re: Atgatt

We drink water as we ride, ( first gear jackets with the bota sack)small snacks at gas stops and that works well. We always get looks about wearing our first gear suits, but thats easy to get over compared to the thought of how painful a slide or get off would be. I remember reading an article onetime about jeans and pavement. My memory was that at 40 MPH jeans vaporized in 8 tenths of a second when in contact with pavement, so thats pretty much convinced me. While I do not like to see riders in shorts, jeans do not offer much improvment. Riding gear is the only choice that gives you a chance to walk away after a slide. OH yeah I do wear gloves as well

Rick

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post #41 of 41 Old Jul 5th, 2008, 8:18 am Thread Starter
 
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Re: Atgatt

Always Gloves cant agree more (substantial ones as well) as you will always get your hand down, it is an instinct you will not be able to overcomb in a crash out of the blue. Would not want to have my digits amputated as I have seen several times when attending summer crashes.
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