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post #1 of 23 Old Jun 12th, 2008, 10:45 am Thread Starter
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What would you do?

My buddy just bought a nearly brand new 07 GS from a BMW dealer. 900 miles on the clock - was told it was a BMW buyback unit. 7 weeks later, still no Title from the dealer. Everytime he's called he's been told it's "in process". Finally he calls "BS" and talks to the dealership owner. He's told it's nearly done, all he needs to do is sign a piece of paper that they'll fax him.

The piece of paper turns out to be an inaccurate odometer statement - evidently that's the reason BMW bought it back from the previous owner. This starts raising some questions in his mind, and then as he's lovingly dusting it, he sees a sticker on the inside of the front fender with a 2008 date on it. He starts looking through all the maintence records and there's no mention of a fender being replaced. In addition, one of the records states an odo reading of 5k miles and a seperate record says that the bike with that VIN number is a red bike - it's yellow!

He absolutely loves the bike. He's supposed to be leaving next week on a two week ride with me and some other folks. Unless something gets resolved in the next couple of days. Due to the long wait on the title, he's on his second 30-day tag, and of course it expires next thursday!

He called BMW corporate this morning and they are VERY interested in the whole deal...

I told him to talk with an attorney and run away from the deal as fast as he can get! Unless something gets resolved in the next couple of days, I told him just to rent a Harley or something for the trip.

Lurch
'40 knucklehead chop
'00 LTC - Pacific Blue
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"As the light changed from red to green to yellow and back to red again, I sat there thinking about life. Was it nothing more than a bunch of honking and yelling? Sometimes it seemed that way. - Jack Handy
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post #2 of 23 Old Jun 12th, 2008, 10:55 am
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Re: What would you do?

I'd find a attorney who'd chase the dealership for comitting fraud.
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post #3 of 23 Old Jun 12th, 2008, 10:59 am
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Re: What would you do?

I would start unwinding the payments made... including whoever financed it, or if he paid by check, stop payment.

I would contact the State Attorney General. If the story you tell is correct, what the dealer has done is no less than fraud.

I would not even ride the bike... after contacting the AG, call the dealer and ask them to come and remove the bike.


I'm guessing it was wrecked and rebuilt. In my state, if it was totalled by an insurance company, the title will clearly state that.

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post #4 of 23 Old Jun 12th, 2008, 11:17 am
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Re: What would you do?

I would like to know what dealer are you talking about?

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post #5 of 23 Old Jun 12th, 2008, 11:45 am Thread Starter
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Re: What would you do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mpillis
I would like to know what dealer are you talking about?
I've purposely left out names and locations as I don't want to interfere in the process until he gets some resolution, but it's not anywhere near you.

Lurch
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'00 LTC - Pacific Blue
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"As the light changed from red to green to yellow and back to red again, I sat there thinking about life. Was it nothing more than a bunch of honking and yelling? Sometimes it seemed that way. - Jack Handy
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post #6 of 23 Old Jun 12th, 2008, 12:00 pm
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Re: What would you do?

I would let the dealer know that you could make a lot of trouble for them if he called the state AG and BMW corporate. Then politely ask for the truth and see if they would like to renegotiate the terms of the deal.

Brian Ley
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post #7 of 23 Old Jun 12th, 2008, 12:19 pm Thread Starter
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Re: What would you do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanjaun2
I would let the dealer know that you could make a lot of trouble for them if he called the state AG and BMW corporate. Then politely ask for the truth and see if they would like to renegotiate the terms of the deal.
From what I understand, when he mentioned the word "legal", the owner said "you've said the magic word and I can't comment further" and promptly hung up on him.

Lurch
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'00 LTC - Pacific Blue
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"As the light changed from red to green to yellow and back to red again, I sat there thinking about life. Was it nothing more than a bunch of honking and yelling? Sometimes it seemed that way. - Jack Handy
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post #8 of 23 Old Jun 12th, 2008, 1:06 pm
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Re: What would you do?

The dealer has committed fraud. He needs to immediately report this to the entity that investigates this kind of fraud in his state. In CA, it would be the DMV investigators.

What he does next will depend on his interest in the bike. You said that he loves the bike. I would immediately notify all parties that the sales transaction is null and void due to fraud. He will have to get the bike thoroughly examined by a reliable dealer to try and determine actual miles and actual condition of the bike. The examiner must stand behind his assessment in writing. Based on the assessment, he can now begin negotiations on the bike.

Do not allow the selling dealer to have the bike back because they will "scrub" it and your evidence will be gone. Good luck!

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #9 of 23 Old Jun 12th, 2008, 4:58 pm
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Re: What would you do?

Sounds like a salvage deal that went wrong on ya.

I bought a boat from a reputable dealer a few years ago and I had trouble getting the title from them. Turned out the boat did not belong to the dealer, as was represenmted on the bil. of sale, but was on consignment and had a lien on it. The bank would not release the title until they were paid, the dealer did not want to front the money and the owner was broke. I told the dealer they had 48 hours to get my title or my next stop was the local FBI office due to the interstate nature of the fraud.
Boat, title and brand new trailer delivered the foloowing day.

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post #10 of 23 Old Jun 12th, 2008, 6:26 pm
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Re: What would you do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jayjacobson
Do not allow the selling dealer to have the bike back because they will "scrub" it and your evidence will be gone. Good luck!
Good point. I retract my suggestion to call the dealer to pick up the bike. But I still would not ride it another inch until the matter was resolved.

If you look at the map and don't care where you are, you're not lost.

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post #11 of 23 Old Jun 12th, 2008, 7:40 pm
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Re: What would you do?

I have a friend/attorney who has represented a number of people caught up in this kind of fraud in automobiles. The usual story is someone has a "new" car, has an accident, and when at the body shop the repair people ask: "so who fixed the last accident?".

I think this is pretty common, salvaged wrecks get fixed up, the history "scrubbed" and someone unkowingly buys a wreck which has been represented as a "program car" have come back from lease.

It is fraud, and these dealers are probably practiced at it. I wouldn't talk to anyone but a lawyer experienced in this kind of fraud and I'd try to get the dealer nailed to the wall. You should get attorney's fees, all money back and use of the bike for the time you've had it.
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post #12 of 23 Old Jun 13th, 2008, 8:26 am
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Re: What would you do?

There is stuff going on here and I hope we get to hear the ending of the story with all the gory details.

but... He likes the bike. (It is Yellow and that goes a long way with me.) The GS is a beast and tough as a nail. In my long-distance opinion it would have to be pretty beat up before long term trouble would be an issue.

Of greater, immediate problem is the warranty, title, and trust issue.

I think it best that there be no conversations with the dealership without a witness. The owner cannot just say "no more talking" and wash his hands of it.

I also think correspondence with BMW North America should include assurance that the bike is covered from a warranty point of view. If they wont say that it is and put it in writing, then that is a major flag. Also ask them if he should be riding the bike.

Lawyer and state official time if you ask me. Document/Document/Document everything. Take notes of who said what and when.

This is getting interesting.

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post #13 of 23 Old Jun 13th, 2008, 10:56 am
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Re: What would you do?

The problem could be caused by any number of things. First, the state could be slow in processing title transfers, or the dealer's gofer didn't take the correct paperwork to the DMV in order to get the title transferred.

Second, there could be a problem clearing off a lein from the previous owner.

Third, the bike could be a buy-back unit from a place like MMI that routinely uses bikes for teaching tech ed student, then re-sells them to a dealer.

Fourth, there could be some dealer-caused slight of hand.

If your buddy used a lender to finance the purchase, he should contact the lender to explain the problem because the lender holds an interest in the bike and also wants your buddy to get title.

If your buddy didn't use a lender (paid cash) he should take his paperwork to a DMV office and ask that the VIN be checked on the DMV computers to show who is the current owner. The DMV can also tell him if the bike ever had a 'wrecked' title.

If the registered owner isn't your buddy, (per DMV check) and he has proof of ownership (contract, cancelled check, etc.) then he should contact an attorney to discuss his rights.

Don't threaten the delaer with a lawsuit until all facts are known and your buddy has spoken with an attorney. The threat of a lawsuit can bollox up the works if the dealer has made an honest error.

If however, there is evidence of fraud or deciet, then your buddy needs to take all necessary steps to fully recover his costs, or alternatively to get the title if he wants to keep the bike.

In some states the owner of a vehicle can take it to the local police department, explain the circumstances, and the PD will run the VIN to ascertain whether the bike was stolen.

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post #14 of 23 Old Jun 13th, 2008, 4:25 pm
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Re: What would you do?

Many years ago at a car dealership I worked for, an unscrupulous used car salesman changed the odometer (or disconnected it) and sold a vehicle in a similar manner that you have described. To make a long story short, the dealership ended up GIVING the customer a brand new car and all of the money already spent on the one in question. I don't know how that process works exactly, but I do know that the regulating authorities come down VERY hard on dealers who break the law. Your friend should have no problem finding an attorney to handle that case.
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post #15 of 23 Old Jun 16th, 2008, 2:37 pm Thread Starter
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Re: What would you do?

Well, it's continuing to get more interesting. I'm going to wait til things finally shake out before posting much more on it, but I'll definitely give you the complete run down once it's finally taken care of.

Think I'll go pop some popcorn and watch the show!

Lurch
'40 knucklehead chop
'00 LTC - Pacific Blue
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"As the light changed from red to green to yellow and back to red again, I sat there thinking about life. Was it nothing more than a bunch of honking and yelling? Sometimes it seemed that way. - Jack Handy
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post #16 of 23 Old Jun 16th, 2008, 5:57 pm
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Re: What would you do?

Many years ago I bought a new car (AMC Matador!) and the transmission started leaking before I got 20 miles on it. I took it back and they gave me a new loaner car with only 9 miles on it. I then found a parking ticket that someone had put above the visor of the loaner car - for a city 20 miles away.

Never could prove the new car wasn't new. Wasn't my best choice of cars either.

Still Just Jerry

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post #17 of 23 Old Jun 16th, 2008, 6:30 pm
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Re: What would you do?

Get A Lawyer, Get a new bike for free...

The dealer has shot himself in the foot.

Don't give the bike back until you negotiate the deal on the new one..

The free one...

The dealer is screwed on this...

John

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post #18 of 23 Old Jun 16th, 2008, 6:43 pm
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Re: What would you do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by juggler
I would start unwinding the payments made... including whoever financed it, or if he paid by check, stop payment.

I would contact the State Attorney General. If the story you tell is correct, what the dealer has done is no less than fraud.

I would not even ride the bike... after contacting the AG, call the dealer and ask them to come and remove the bike.


I'm guessing it was wrecked and rebuilt. In my state, if it was totalled by an insurance company, the title will clearly state that.
I agree with this totally.

Greg
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post #19 of 23 Old Jun 16th, 2008, 8:04 pm
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What would you do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StillJustJerry
Many years ago I bought a new car (AMC Matador!) and the transmission started leaking before I got 20 miles on it.....Wasn't my best choice of cars either.
Aaaahhhhhhhh Jerry....you have brought the memories rolling back, my friend! Many, many moons ago, dinosaurs roamed the Earth, and my grandpa bought a new matador. He "downsized" from a Lincoln with the "suicide" doors. Can you believe that ANY manufacturer ever made such beasts?

Who says the Matador wasn't a classic?!

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #20 of 23 Old Jun 30th, 2008, 8:58 am Thread Starter
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Re: What would you do?

Well, it sounds like it all got settled. They cut him a check for what he had in it and they came and picked it up. I told him I'd hold them to the fire, and showed him the comments you all had posted as well. He had them over a barrel, and has an attorney friend who knows the head of BMWNA personally and he'd offered to make some phone calls as well, but in the end, my buddy evidently just wanted the whole mess to go away so he could get out and ride.

As much as he liked the GS, with the closest dealership 3 hours away in Oklahoma City, and with the taste that this experience purchasing that bike from them has left in his mouth, he's going to skip BMW for his next purchase and get something closer to home where he can deal with people face to face when issues arise.

It's still not clear to me if it was BMW of OKC that misrepresented the bike at the sale, or if it was BMWNA who didn't communicate to BMW OKC the true nature of the buy-back status of the bike, or a combination of the two. Obviously the ball was dropped somewhere along the way.

Lurch
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'00 LTC - Pacific Blue
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"As the light changed from red to green to yellow and back to red again, I sat there thinking about life. Was it nothing more than a bunch of honking and yelling? Sometimes it seemed that way. - Jack Handy
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post #21 of 23 Old Jun 30th, 2008, 1:40 pm
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Re: What would you do?

Glad it was resolved to his satisfaction. Now....for the next victim to come along....
Quote:
Originally Posted by lurch102
That was my thought exactly... they got off the hook for free, and now can sell it to someone else.
Yeah, scams of this type are very popular. Dealers will "buy back" or repo a vehicle just to sell it AGAIN to the next sucker.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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Last edited by jayjacobson; Jun 30th, 2008 at 2:08 pm.
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post #22 of 23 Old Jun 30th, 2008, 1:52 pm Thread Starter
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Angry Re: What would you do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jayjacobson
Glad it was resolved to his satisfaction. Now....for the next victim to come along....
That was my thought exactly... they got off the hook for free, and now can sell it to someone else.

Lurch
'40 knucklehead chop
'00 LTC - Pacific Blue
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"As the light changed from red to green to yellow and back to red again, I sat there thinking about life. Was it nothing more than a bunch of honking and yelling? Sometimes it seemed that way. - Jack Handy
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post #23 of 23 Old Jul 10th, 2008, 12:55 pm Thread Starter
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Re: What would you do?

Two weeks now since he agreed to let them off the hook and buy back the bike. They faxed him a BuyBack agreement, only it too had a wrong VIN on it. Got a second one, correct this time, this morning. Supposed to have a check from BMWNA in 2-3 weeks and then BMW of OKC "should" come pick up the bike after that. However, they (OKC) are still being [email protected]#'s and won't return his calls.

Lurch
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'00 LTC - Pacific Blue
--------------------------------
"As the light changed from red to green to yellow and back to red again, I sat there thinking about life. Was it nothing more than a bunch of honking and yelling? Sometimes it seemed that way. - Jack Handy
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