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post #1 of 32 Old May 20th, 2008, 3:05 pm Thread Starter
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Question Non-firearm personal protection ?

I'm looking for suggestions regarding pepper spray or other form of personal protection to carry on the road.
Requirements: Small and light enough to carry in motorcycle jacket pocket.
Reasonablly good power and range, meaning several feet away, not just at arm's length.
Legal in all states, I want to go from state to state without hassle or risk of violating the law.
Price: never mind what the cost is, I want to know what is out there.

I once met a guy carrying a mountianeering flare pistol. I'd consider a flare gun, tazer kind of thing, or pepper sprayer as long as it met the above criteria.

Let's not turn this into another firearm concealed carry thread. My home state of Vermont requires no license to carry a concealed weapon, and I'd carry from state to state if it was legal. I don't normally carry a weapon but would on a cross country trip if the individual state requirements didn't make the logistics prohibitive. I don't want to deal with a bunch of state requirements, rather, I'd like to carry a deterrent that would have a reasonable degree of effectiveness and be legal to have everywhere.
Any ideas?
Thanks.
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post #2 of 32 Old May 20th, 2008, 3:11 pm
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Re: Non-firearm personal protection ?

How about a sticker...

"Rider carries Smith & Wesson large caliber pistol 6 out of 7 days."

...............
J.M.J...
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post #3 of 32 Old May 20th, 2008, 3:13 pm
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Re: Non-firearm personal protection ?

The best one I'm aware of is this one from Kimber called the Guardian Angel . I bought one of these for the SO because I know she doesn't have the heart to shoot someone, and would hesitate or not shoot at all. This she knows will only be temorary, and so the theory goes, she'd be more likely to use it if she needed to. I personally would rather use a gun, but that's me.....

I'm not sure about the legal in all states thing, you may want to do more research into that. I would check the NRA website for more info. OH, and I bought it from the local gun store for about $40.

HTH

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post #4 of 32 Old May 20th, 2008, 3:32 pm
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Re: Non-firearm personal protection ?

All the things you mention are not legal in all 50 states. To carry Pepper Spray (or even the Guardian Angel which is not pepper spray) in Mass. you have to attend a class or be arrested for an illegal weapon is just one example and there are several others. Tasers are illegal in ten states.

About the only thing I have found that IS legal to carry in all fifty states is a key chain (selfless plug here) and guess who just happens to teach a class at CCR on Key Chain Self Defense?

In my class I teach you that there are several every day items that can be used for self defense, and the effects are dramatic. There are no "Non-Lethal Weapons" that are legal in all fifty states though.

Jerry
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post #5 of 32 Old May 20th, 2008, 4:20 pm
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Re: Non-firearm personal protection ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewuff
All the things you mention are not legal
.......
a key chain (selfless plug here) and guess who just happens to teach a class at CCR on Key Chain Self Defense?
you are right, Jerry! A simple BIC pen can be used in a lethal fashion.... and it can be up close and.. "personal"...

...............
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post #6 of 32 Old May 20th, 2008, 6:16 pm
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Re: Non-firearm personal protection ?

How about a tactical knife and some appropriate (martial arts) training? Would take a little investment, but might be worthwhile. Likely will never need it; but, it's there if....

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post #7 of 32 Old May 20th, 2008, 6:47 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Non-firearm personal protection ?

Thanks for the replies so far.
I'm going to look into the Guardian Angel thing. I imagine there are restrictions in some states; I'd rather plead ignorant to a law against something like that than plead ignorant to an actual firearm violation. I do have the Traveler's Guide to the Firearm Laws of the Fifty States, 2008 edition, got it from the NRA. Unless you are a former LEO with some kind of national license, doing a cross country trip legally with a concealed firearm would be a huge paperwork drill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KMC1
The best one I'm aware of is this one from Kimber called the Guardian Angel . I bought one of these for the SO because I know she doesn't have the heart to shoot someone, and would hesitate or not shoot at all. This she knows will only be temorary, and so the theory goes, she'd be more likely to use it if she needed to. I personally would rather use a gun, but that's me.....

I'm not sure about the legal in all states thing, you may want to do more research into that. I would check the NRA website for more info. OH, and I bought it from the local gun store for about $40.

HTH

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post #8 of 32 Old May 20th, 2008, 7:15 pm
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Re: Non-firearm personal protection ?

Pretty sure these are legal in all 50 states:

One is used for metal working, the other for checking tire pressure.
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post #9 of 32 Old May 20th, 2008, 7:41 pm
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Re: Non-firearm personal protection ?

This is a great topic, and one I'm sure that many are interested in. It would be nice if there WAS something you could carry cross-country legally for self-defense. There are too many stories (including ones on this site) about bad guys trying to ruin your day while you are riding, camping, traveling, etc. Maybe it's time for a national concealed carry law, legal in all 50 states.

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post #10 of 32 Old May 20th, 2008, 7:44 pm
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Re: Non-firearm personal protection ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RonKMiller
Pretty sure these are legal in all 50 states:

One is used for metal working, the other for checking tire pressure.
And if those are, why is this not? It's a collapsible baton, available at many stores to the general public, not just police.

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post #11 of 32 Old May 20th, 2008, 7:46 pm
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Re: Non-firearm personal protection ?

+1 on the Kimber Guardian, $40. You get two blasts from the unit. Probably the most convenient size of any options to carry.

Cabela's has a nice, carry size pepper spray canister for $30. Have to be very cautious of wind direction!

Martial Mart dot com has an EXCELLENT, free self defense dvd with purchase (at least they did on my last order). I bought some Kubatons, $3-$5 each, just out of curiosity. The order was worth it just for the dvd. Remove the metal from the wood, and you have a decent key holder, and a defensive and otherwise useful tool. There is another site that carries an UL polymer stylus kubaton, you can use for your GPS or laptop, is as good as it gets. $9 and looks like a pen. Will not bend and was hammered through a piece of plywood.

There are many free self defense training videos via Google. Hours worth. More than a fair share of information as to why you do not want to get into any confrontation to begin with.

For $5, Walmart has a relatively small and very loud air horn. I have used this more than once.

Useful and legal everywhere including airports, is the Fenix P2D flashlight, which doubles as, IMO, one of the very best Kubatons as well. Great holster, accessories options are a diffuser which is excellent for traffic control or needing assistance, a red lens for night vision or seeing animals in the dark, runs on 2) AA batteries. Has L-M-H and auto SOS on 85 lumen setting on low, H and intense strobe on 180 lumen setting. Best light I have ever seen, and I have used many.

I purchased the light from Kandlepower on Amazon, nice guy to deal with. VERY pleased!

There are law enforcement specific lights similar to the Fenix, if you care to browse some sites. These are intended to inflict a lot of pain.


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post #12 of 32 Old May 20th, 2008, 8:01 pm
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Talking Re: Non-firearm personal protection ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KMC1
The best one I'm aware of is this one from Kimber called the Guardian Angel . I bought one of these for the SO because I know she doesn't have the heart to shoot someone, and would hesitate or not shoot at all. This she knows will only be temorary, and so the theory goes, she'd be more likely to use it if she needed to. I personally would rather use a gun, but that's me.....

I'm not sure about the legal in all states thing, you may want to do more research into that. I would check the NRA website for more info. OH, and I bought it from the local gun store for about $40.

HTH
u can buy quite a few 9 mm rounds for $40....

Rob Nelson

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post #13 of 32 Old May 20th, 2008, 8:53 pm
 
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Re: Non-firearm personal protection ?

As a retired LEO, firearms instructor, armorer, etc. etc. etc. I'll pass on to you what I advise my friends. First, you need to employ "peripheral vision", not only with your eyes but with your mind. Being cognizant of what's going on around you is paramount. If you're strolling around in a fog no weaponry will protect you. Secondly, in any confrontation the victor does not always go away unscathed ..... be willing to trade a little hide if it insures your safety. If you are motorized you have the greatest weapon ... the vehicle. I'd much rather face a firearm than someone trying to run me down with a car. The person with the firearm might miss. Vehicles have throttles .... use them, gets you out of the way quickly. So what if you drive on a sidewalk or run over someones bushes. Getting a traffic ticket is minor if it resorts to that. Fundamentally, if someone is going to display some sort of a weapon or spray or whatever they better have the skills to use it and the mindset to employ it. If not, someone is going to take it away from you and use it against you. I would not expect you or your SO have experienced armed confrontations in a civilian atmosphere. I have. And guess what. You get nervous. And I've had thousands of hours of training and years of experience. If this is a first time pretty much you are gonna wet your pants. If you feel that there is enough mental cognizance to deploy and successfully use a protective device during this occurence then go ahead. But it is much easier said than done. I cannot express the need strongly enough to practice, practice, practice. Know your protective device well, learn how to deploy it quickly and how to get in a defensive stance to protect yourself. Is this complicated? Well, not really, but it sure ain't like a TV show. I am a great believer of insight and prevention by action (peripheral vision again). That will likely save you the opportunity to get in to a confrontation. But I also fully and totally support the right of any of our citizens to protect themselves, including firearm ownership. But there is a responsibility to the use any of these devices and one needs to be properly prepared for it. These aren't bathroom spray cleaners that you can squirt and the scum goes away. And just about anything, used properly, can become a very effective protective device. Something as simple as a good head butt from you while you have your helmet on would put the adversary to their knees quickly. Then you can get on your scoot and ride away. After my 28 years I retired and yes, I own a couple of firearms. And I rarely, if ever, carry. And I do take my LT on trips of 3000 miles or more. I'll use my 100 horsepower to get out of harms way. If you'd like to talk about this more PM me. I also understand a little about the laws and mindset in Vermont. $100K was left in Burlington at UVM for my daughters education.
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post #14 of 32 Old May 20th, 2008, 10:43 pm
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Re: Non-firearm personal protection ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fas
u can buy quite a few 9 mm rounds for $40....
I hear ya brother!!!

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post #15 of 32 Old May 20th, 2008, 11:19 pm
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Non-firearm personal protection ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieVT
....Legal in all states, I want to go from state to state without hassle or risk of violating the law....Any ideas?....
That is what makes your request so difficult....Legal in all states.

Taser International makes a highly effective "tool." (But illegal in some states). There are some very effective pepper sprays available in various sizes. (But, again, not legal in all states). (Expandable) batons are a felony in many states, including CA. Keep in mind that in many places a concealed knife (even a folding pocket knife) over 3 inches is illegal, also. Wish I could think of something....

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #16 of 32 Old May 21st, 2008, 4:59 am Thread Starter
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Re: Non-firearm personal protection ?

Good advice, well said IMO. Planning and training for being "in extremis" is very different from being there. My first choice will always be to run away, but I like the idea of a easily carried deterrent, just to have that option. Your recommendation to plan and train for deploying the thing is well taken.
Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NascaLT
As a retired LEO, firearms instructor, armorer, etc. etc. etc. I'll pass on to you what I advise my friends. First, you need to employ "peripheral vision", not only with your eyes but with your mind. Being cognizant of what's going on around you is paramount. If you're strolling around in a fog no weaponry will protect you. Secondly, in any confrontation the victor does not always go away unscathed ..... be willing to trade a little hide if it insures your safety. If you are motorized you have the greatest weapon ... the vehicle. I'd much rather face a firearm than someone trying to run me down with a car. The person with the firearm might miss. Vehicles have throttles .... use them, gets you out of the way quickly. So what if you drive on a sidewalk or run over someones bushes. Getting a traffic ticket is minor if it resorts to that. Fundamentally, if someone is going to display some sort of a weapon or spray or whatever they better have the skills to use it and the mindset to employ it. If not, someone is going to take it away from you and use it against you. I would not expect you or your SO have experienced armed confrontations in a civilian atmosphere. I have. And guess what. You get nervous. And I've had thousands of hours of training and years of experience. If this is a first time pretty much you are gonna wet your pants. If you feel that there is enough mental cognizance to deploy and successfully use a protective device during this occurence then go ahead. But it is much easier said than done. I cannot express the need strongly enough to practice, practice, practice. Know your protective device well, learn how to deploy it quickly and how to get in a defensive stance to protect yourself. Is this complicated? Well, not really, but it sure ain't like a TV show. I am a great believer of insight and prevention by action (peripheral vision again). That will likely save you the opportunity to get in to a confrontation. But I also fully and totally support the right of any of our citizens to protect themselves, including firearm ownership. But there is a responsibility to the use any of these devices and one needs to be properly prepared for it. These aren't bathroom spray cleaners that you can squirt and the scum goes away. And just about anything, used properly, can become a very effective protective device. Something as simple as a good head butt from you while you have your helmet on would put the adversary to their knees quickly. Then you can get on your scoot and ride away. After my 28 years I retired and yes, I own a couple of firearms. And I rarely, if ever, carry. And I do take my LT on trips of 3000 miles or more. I'll use my 100 horsepower to get out of harms way. If you'd like to talk about this more PM me. I also understand a little about the laws and mindset in Vermont. $100K was left in Burlington at UVM for my daughters education.
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post #17 of 32 Old May 21st, 2008, 5:09 am Thread Starter
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Re: Non-firearm personal protection ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fas
u can buy quite a few 9 mm rounds for $40....
I already have many boxes of rounds for my S&W 9mm. I don't have an arsenal but I do have variety of tools for various applications and more than enough stuff to keep them working for a while. The S&W 9 has a double stack magazine, isn't all that small, and doesn't carry well; I have others, none would conceal carry very well. If it weren't for the issue of varying state laws making carrying across state lines prohibitive, I'd shop for a nice, small carry pistol. I have already dismissed that as an option.
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post #18 of 32 Old May 21st, 2008, 6:07 am
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Re: Non-firearm personal protection ?

To add on to NascaLT, if you don't train with what ever you are going to carry then it's unlikely going to work for you when the time comes. There's a saying among LEO's in my area, and probably others, "In moments of stress you revert to your training" If you haven't trained then you're going to have the deer in the head lights look on your face when something happens.
They teach recruits at the academy where I currently work to do the "What if game", What if I walk into this store and someone does, fill in the blank. This lets them think through a situation before it happens. There's no time to think and decide what to do when something bad happens, and bad things happen to good people.

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post #19 of 32 Old May 21st, 2008, 6:10 am
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Re: Non-firearm personal protection ?

I've been looking at the cobra stunlight. it a HID lite with a laser pointer and pepper stream that shoots up to 20ft . they say on their web site that its not allowed in Mass, Ny ,NJ ,and Wis. check it out at cobrastunlight.com.
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post #20 of 32 Old May 21st, 2008, 8:15 am
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Re: Non-firearm personal protection ?

i didn't realize Kimber has some legal information on the next webpage over. It's probably best to still check the actual laws, but THIS is really helpful.
Sorry, should have posted this earlier.

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post #21 of 32 Old May 21st, 2008, 9:07 am
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Re: Non-firearm personal protection ?

Something that works and is legal everywhere is a can of Black Flag wasp and hornet spray,
it will shoot a stream of face and eye burning deterrent up to twenty feet.

it fits all of your requirements except for size,
although not as longlasting as pepper spray,
sprayed into the face of an attacker it will "buy" you enough time to "get away"

I keep a can of it by my front door as my first line of defense.


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post #22 of 32 Old May 21st, 2008, 9:34 pm
 
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Re: Non-firearm personal protection ?

As rab1967 notes: "In moments of stress you revert to your training" is a biblical statement to LE instructors. Now, how much do you train? Well, it depends on how proficient you want to be. If you want to get to the level of where your actions are based on muscle memory (being able to do it instantly without thought) .... about 2000 reps.
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post #23 of 32 Old May 21st, 2008, 10:13 pm
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Re: Non-firearm personal protection ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverBuffalo
Something that works and is legal everywhere is a can of Black Flag wasp and hornet spray, it will shoot a stream of face and eye burning deterrent up to twenty feet....
Hans, you DA MAN! I love it!! We've used dry powder fire extinguishers but NEVER even thought of high pressure BUG spray.

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post #24 of 32 Old May 22nd, 2008, 4:27 am
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Re: Non-firearm personal protection ?

Skydrol in an areosol spray, guaranteed to drop anyone to their knees and leave them there for quite a while. It is nothing more than hydraulic fluid used in aircraft, phosphate ester based.
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post #25 of 32 Old May 24th, 2008, 11:09 am
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Re: Non-firearm personal protection ?

i read on a post here and saw something on the gangland series that the hells angels use hammers. makes sense to me. the hammer thing on this site was in a post about a disc jockey who made an on air remark about lane splitting in calf. and that motorist should open their doors on motorcyclist who split lanes.
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post #26 of 32 Old May 24th, 2008, 5:48 pm
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Re: Non-firearm personal protection ?

Even more difficult in the UK. A friend was convicted of Firearm offences for using pepper spray in self defence. You are not allowed to carry a knife of any sort. A gun licence is very difficult to get and even if you carry a baseball bat you better have a ball as well.


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post #27 of 32 Old May 24th, 2008, 8:28 pm
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Re: Non-firearm personal protection ?

If all you're going to carry in Texas is a baseball bat, then you better have a PAIR of balls.

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post #28 of 32 Old May 24th, 2008, 8:38 pm
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Re: Non-firearm personal protection ?

A rock muchacho is legal in all states. Run fast, and if 100 horses is not enough then a GT is call for Next time I see you try my rock and my GT you might like it If you are with the BBD's Jim can kick the crap out of who ever is messing with you, he is yung and can handle anyone.


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post #29 of 32 Old May 25th, 2008, 8:50 am
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Non-firearm personal protection ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewuff
If all you're going to carry in Texas is a baseball bat, then you better have a PAIR of balls.
Say big, brass and shiny?!

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #30 of 32 Old May 25th, 2008, 4:09 pm
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Re: Non-firearm personal protection ?

You people listen-up! cuzz here is THE ANSWER,(TRUNK MONKEYS) they WHOOP-ASS!
for you. You don't even have to get off your bike!!!!!
Bone1
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post #31 of 32 Old May 25th, 2008, 8:21 pm
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Re: Non-firearm personal protection ?

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Originally Posted by bone1
You people listen-up! cuzz here is THE ANSWER,(TRUNK MONKEYS) they WHOOP-ASS!
for you. You don't even have to get off your bike!!!!!
Bone1
Wanna see some of those Trunk Monkey vids?

Clicker
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post #32 of 32 Old May 26th, 2008, 7:03 am
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Location: Winterville, GA, USA
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Thumbs up Re: Non-firearm personal protection ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick
Wanna see some of those Trunk Monkey vids?

Clicker
Dick you da man!!!
Bone1
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