Daytona 200: Two HP2s in the top ten - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 
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post #1 of 19 Old Mar 8th, 2008, 3:28 pm Thread Starter
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Daytona 200: Two HP2s in the top ten

Richard Cooper (7th) and Brian Parriott (8th); both were running two laps down at the end. Two other BMWs, Nathan Kern and Rico Penzkofer had problems early and finish 68th & 69th (last).

Greg White mentioned toward the end that Parriott may, based on how things turned out today, get to run the entire Formula Extreme schedule for San Jose BMW. The bikes for the 200 were running basically bone stock motors, but that would change if they ran the full series.

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post #2 of 19 Old Mar 8th, 2008, 11:04 pm
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Re: Daytona 200: Two HP2s in the top ten

Very, very pleased to see these top ten finishes. Congrats to BMW and SJ BMW.
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post #3 of 19 Old Mar 9th, 2008, 11:54 am
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Re: Daytona 200: Two HP2s in the top ten

Chris Hodgsen (owner of SJBMW) has been talking with corporate for a few months about this. The plan is to give them the race bike Brian ran at Daytona and Chris is going to update it with the FI, electronics, telemetry, and other equipment they've used on the R1200S racebike they successfully ran in Moto-ST and AFM races last year. The ongoing debate has been how much will BMW support the race effort (full season, partial, none) so Chris and crew were putting together a FX race program to try and run out of the shop with whatever BMWNA backing ( minimal or otherwise) they can get. Considering how well Brian produced in the 200 (remember, he went down in the second lap and can back from 65th to 7th) I hope BMW steps up and backs their effort for the whole season.

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post #4 of 19 Old Mar 9th, 2008, 11:58 am
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Re: Daytona 200: Two HP2s in the top ten

They , Richard Cooper and Brian Parriott finshed in 6 & 7.

<>

Josh Hayes Disqualified From Daytona 200 :
Hayes Disqualified For Illegal Crankshaft Preparation

Saturday, March 08, 2008
This just in from the AMA:

Josh Hayes Disqualified From Today's Daytona 200


Josh Hayes was disqualified from today's Daytona 200 following a customary and mandatory technical inspection of the top three finishers' motorcycles in the Daytona 200, round one of the AMA Formula Extreme Series.

Upon this inspection, a technical infraction was found. The #1 Erion Racing Honda CBR600RR's crankshaft was polished, surface treated and metal was removed from it. This is in violation of the 2008 AMA rulebook section 5.4, the text of which can be seen below.


Page 47: Rulebook Section 5.4
5.4 Multi-cylinder liquid cooled engines
The following engine components may not be altered from the originally homologated model except as noted:

b. Homologated crankshaft
1. Bearing surfaces may be polished or surface treated.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------



SO now on AMA's Race results web page they are listed as 5 & 6

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Honda's Statement On Hayes Disqualification
they will appeal...

Sunday, March 09, 2008
This just in from Honda:
HONDA RACING INFORMATION

Daytona 200 winner Josh Hayes disqualified by AMA officials

Josh Hayes was disqualified as the winner of the Daytona 200 by AMA officials after they found his race-winning machine to be in violation of the AMA Road Race rulebook.
"We've appealed their decision and basically that's our side of it," Rick Hobbs, Hayes' crew chief said. "We've appealed the technical inspection and also the penalty, disqualification." He added, "At this point we're not going to make any statement on what our version is until we file the appropriate paperwork with them."

Patric Blackman
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post #5 of 19 Old Mar 9th, 2008, 5:47 pm
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Re: Daytona 200: Two HP2s in the top ten

Saw and watched the race. Very cool to watch, BMW did very well. I remember watching Harley attempt to race the v-rod and I believe they never finished the race. This of course was a couple of years ago. They always had problems in the pits.

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post #6 of 19 Old Mar 9th, 2008, 6:11 pm
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Re: Daytona 200: Two HP2s in the top ten

I guess I'm happy for BMW, but I'm also unimpressed that a 1200 twin can compete only with 600 cc fours.

After all, Ducati 1200 twins run with 1000 cc fours.

Don't quite get why BMW, with all its formula 1 expertise on four wheels, can't develop a more competitive twin.
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post #7 of 19 Old Mar 9th, 2008, 6:34 pm
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Re: Daytona 200: Two HP2s in the top ten

How come there were no ducks in the Supebike race?????

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post #8 of 19 Old Mar 9th, 2008, 7:26 pm
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Re: Daytona 200: Two HP2s in the top ten

Quote:
Originally Posted by CalLT
I guess I'm happy for BMW, but I'm also unimpressed that a 1200 twin can compete only with 600 cc fours.

After all, Ducati 1200 twins run with 1000 cc fours.

Don't quite get why BMW, with all its formula 1 expertise on four wheels, can't develop a more competitive twin.
Two completely different approaches to engine building, starting with air vs. water cooled. The AMA FX rules allow a variety of machines based on their potential power delivery - 600 liquid cooled inline 4, up to 675 triple, up to 850 liquid cooled twin, and up to 1200 air cooled twin.

ALso, BMW is developing a 1000cc in line 4 to run on Word Superbike starting next year

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post #9 of 19 Old Mar 9th, 2008, 7:29 pm
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Re: Daytona 200: Two HP2s in the top ten

Quote:
Originally Posted by motorman587
How come there were no ducks in the Supebike race?????
They've just homologated the 1098 for World Superbike and are focusing their racing efforts there and in MotoGP, where they are the defending champion. Ducati is backing Larry Pegram's efforts on the 848 in FX to some degree, and there is talk they will bring the 1098 into AMA Superbike next year.

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post #10 of 19 Old Mar 9th, 2008, 7:29 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Daytona 200: Two HP2s in the top ten

Kudos to the boys for being even remotely competitive on a veritable shoestring.

Dave Hoogerland

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post #11 of 19 Old Mar 10th, 2008, 7:43 am
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Re: Daytona 200: Two HP2s in the top ten

I kept seeing Nate and the other guy listed last, but never knew what happened to them. I found this: http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/...?article=31702 On down the page, it has more information on the race and the BMW guys have quotes.

I was happy to see them run so well.

Randy

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post #12 of 19 Old Mar 10th, 2008, 5:43 pm
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Re: Daytona 200: Two HP2s in the top ten

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidTaylor
Two completely different approaches to engine building, starting with air vs. water cooled. The AMA FX rules allow a variety of machines based on their potential power delivery - 600 liquid cooled inline 4, up to 675 triple, up to 850 liquid cooled twin, and up to 1200 air cooled twin.

ALso, BMW is developing a 1000cc in line 4 to run on Word Superbike starting next year

I guess I'll withhold judgement on the new four until it comes out. But I don't quite buy into the argument about "different approaches" to engine building. To me, the rule change that allows them to complete with 600s is very similar to the Harley rule that allows the Motor Company to continue dominating dirt track. It was written to help make BMW competitive when, in my opinion, they shouldn't be granted any favors. Their engineers and designers should be forced to compete.

Here's what we know:

1) BMW runs a first-class F1 car racing team. No allowances for "different approaches" to engine building.
2) BMW builds some of the fastest, best-handling touring coups and sedans in the world. Not caveats here, either.
3) BMW is one of the most profitable car companies in the world.
4) I believe BMW, like Mercedes and a few other F1 builders, use pneumatic "springs" to pop open closed, allowing their racecars to rev astronomically high without valve float. This is a superior solution to Ducati's desmo valves.

I just don't understand why some of that goodness does not migrate to two wheels. Maybe the new K-bike is a first foray. Long overdue, IMHO.
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post #13 of 19 Old Mar 11th, 2008, 1:12 am
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Re: Daytona 200: Two HP2s in the top ten

Quote:
Originally Posted by motorman587
Saw and watched the race. Very cool to watch, BMW did very well. I remember watching Harley attempt to race the v-rod and I believe they never finished the race. This of course was a couple of years ago. They always had problems in the pits.
It wouldn't have been the cruising V-Rod. Probably thinking of the Buells couple of years ago. They didn't fare well over the distance. Great bikes, but at the time weren't up to the rigors of a 200 mile race.
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post #14 of 19 Old Mar 11th, 2008, 1:33 am
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Re: Daytona 200: Two HP2s in the top ten

Quote:
Originally Posted by CalLT
I guess I'll withhold judgement on the new four until it comes out. But I don't quite buy into the argument about "different approaches" to engine building. To me, the rule change that allows them to complete with 600s is very similar to the Harley rule that allows the Motor Company to continue dominating dirt track. It was written to help make BMW competitive when, in my opinion, they shouldn't be granted any favors. Their engineers and designers should be forced to compete.

Here's what we know:

1) BMW runs a first-class F1 car racing team. No allowances for "different approaches" to engine building.
2) BMW builds some of the fastest, best-handling touring coups and sedans in the world. Not caveats here, either.
3) BMW is one of the most profitable car companies in the world.
4) I believe BMW, like Mercedes and a few other F1 builders, use pneumatic "springs" to pop open closed, allowing their racecars to rev astronomically high without valve float. This is a superior solution to Ducati's desmo valves.

I just don't understand why some of that goodness does not migrate to two wheels. Maybe the new K-bike is a first foray. Long overdue, IMHO.
Here's what we also know -

- BMW cars and BMW motorcycles are run as two separate entities, and the racing programs are even more distant. Not unlike Honda or Suzuki.
- The AMA rules were made to allow the broadest competition in the FX class, since the Supersport series is locked down to 600 fours an 850 twins. The idea is to have a very open class with a broad number of manufacturers, which they've certainly achieved, even to the point of basing the most famous road race in America on that class. The only way to do that is to set the rules in such a way where machines have a chance at parity on power based on engine design, not displacement. If you don't like it, don't watch Formula Extreme races.

If you truly want to harp on the rules and your perspective on lack of parity, why aren't you ripping on Ducati, Triumph, and Buell? All of these brands get "special treatment" that allows more engine displacement than the big four Japanese builders. Or maybe you're frequenting their boards and pissing in their Cheerios as well.

Bottom line for me - the more brands in racing, the more engine configurations in racing, the more variety in racing, makes for better racing. Apparently the governing bodies of every production racing organization on the planet think so, too. But hey, we could all be wrong.

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post #15 of 19 Old Mar 11th, 2008, 10:14 am
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Re: Daytona 200: Two HP2s in the top ten

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Originally Posted by DavidTaylor
Bottom line for me - the more brands in racing, the more engine configurations in racing, the more variety in racing, makes for better racing. Apparently the governing bodies of every production racing organization on the planet think so, too. But hey, we could all be wrong.
Well put.....I WANT to see several engine configurations and brands out there dicing it up ......how boring would it be to have every manufacturer with the same basic inline four 600 (or like the current AMA Superbike - which used to be really competitive - class with Suzuki and Suzuki and Suzuki and then Suzuki .....woo hoo how amazing a Suzuki beat another Suzuki while passing a Suzuki ...... ).

To me its pretty impressive for them to place (eventually) 5th & 6th with stock engines and the inherent limitations of the design compared to the state of the art 600's......exciting stuff for BMW.

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post #16 of 19 Old Mar 11th, 2008, 10:17 am
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Re: Daytona 200: Two HP2s in the top ten

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Or maybe you're frequenting their boards and pissing in their Cheerios as well.
I see no need to attack me personally because we have a difference of opinion on this subject.

I "frequent this board" because I'm the proud owner of a 2003 K1200LT. It's the best handling big rig out there, with the best brakes, the most comfort and the nicest style.

But I've not yet drank the BMW coolaid, and I'll continue to speak out, if that's okay.

And yeah ... I think Ducati and all other manufacturers should also not get special treatment. I'm not a fan of nanny governments and of nanny race organizations. The way that bikes improve is to compete with the best that's out there, not to have special rules created for them.
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post #17 of 19 Old Mar 11th, 2008, 10:45 am
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Re: Daytona 200: Two HP2s in the top ten

The "V-Rod" referred to in an earlier post was the VR1000, a prototype used to develop the v-rod engine. There was a Buell competing this year, placed #53.

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post #18 of 19 Old Mar 11th, 2008, 4:03 pm
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Re: Daytona 200: Two HP2s in the top ten

CalLt, I dont think they are necessarily getting special treatment. Its a fact that certain designs have inherent advantages and disadvantages so I think what they are trying to do is make things as equal and competitive as possible while keeping things diverse and interesting for the racers and fans alike.

MotoGP does the exact same thing with engine configurations, with different displacements allowed for different engine configuration designs.

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post #19 of 19 Old Mar 12th, 2008, 12:59 am
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Re: Daytona 200: Two HP2s in the top ten

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Originally Posted by CalLT
I see no need to attack me personally because we have a difference of opinion on this subject.

I "frequent this board" because I'm the proud owner of a 2003 K1200LT. It's the best handling big rig out there, with the best brakes, the most comfort and the nicest style.

But I've not yet drank the BMW coolaid, and I'll continue to speak out, if that's okay.

And yeah ... I think Ducati and all other manufacturers should also not get special treatment. I'm not a fan of nanny governments and of nanny race organizations. The way that bikes improve is to compete with the best that's out there, not to have special rules created for them.
OK, does "raining on the parade" feel better?

I just don't think you get it, at all.

It's not nanny government or nanny race organizations. Part of what makes motorcycling great are the options and differences in style, engines, configurations, target markets, etc. If all motorcycles were 96 inch v-twins, 600cc inline fours, 1050 triples, or 9 piston radial engines, we as humans would get bored with motorcycling and the sport would likely die. We are lucky enough to be able to experience a multitude of approaches to motorcycle styling and engine design because so many inventors and engineers came up with so many different ways to express a motorcycle in a production form. Hell, I have two very unique and different approachs to the problem from the same manufacturer, and I have a ball riding them both!

But each one of these designs has advantages and limitations. So when you go racing, it's fun to see who can exploit those aspects to the greatest potential to win. There is only so much potential torque and power that can be reliably made in the various configurations at certain displacements and configurations. So they level the playing field by allowing like powered displacements and configurations to run together. There is no amount or rule-making noe engineering that will reliably get 140hp out of a 600cc air-cooled opposed twin. But it can be done at 1200cc. So why not let them race it?

Ahh I feel it now....

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