MSF Rider Coaches?? - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 
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post #1 of 42 Old Feb 15th, 2008, 4:58 pm Thread Starter
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MSF Rider Coaches??

How many rider coaches are there on this forum?? What if anything do you think we should be doing about Motorcycle safety within this community? About the ever increasing fatality rate among motorcycle ride in the upper age groups? I know that the typical BMW rider is more safety aware, but how are we effecting the motorcycle community in general?

What about a several ERC at the Curve Cowboy????

Bill Jennings, fhp
Denison, TX

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post #2 of 42 Old Feb 15th, 2008, 7:19 pm
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Re: MSF Rider Coaches??

Second year as a rider coach.

You can only teach people IF they want to learn. Unfortunately around here the HD image is king which means: Where more leather than on a cow but under no circumstances wear a helmet.

ERC's are a good refresher but... as rider we should always be practicing.

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post #3 of 42 Old Feb 15th, 2008, 7:25 pm
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Re: MSF Rider Coaches??

10 year as a instructor/rider coach.

Age and CC should be the law. The young you are the less CC you are able to get. Basic rider course a must and also an ERC. ERC if you get a moving infaction to keep the points of your license. States should have free ERC for grant fundings.

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post #4 of 42 Old Feb 15th, 2008, 7:28 pm
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Re: MSF Rider Coaches??

I "used-to-be"... up to 2000... a rider coach.

now.. well, I agree that it could be useful... and then apply it.

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post #5 of 42 Old Feb 15th, 2008, 9:03 pm
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Re: MSF Rider Coaches??

Working on my second year as an instructor. One of the biggest things I think need to be done is educate the not the riders but the general public. Media blitz with ads etc. lso tougher laws if you injure or kill a MC rider.

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post #6 of 42 Old Feb 16th, 2008, 12:53 am
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Re: MSF Rider Coaches??

I am an instructor. My first year just passed.

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post #7 of 42 Old Feb 16th, 2008, 10:25 am
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Re: MSF Rider Coaches??

Rider coach here. Good supportive program in MN. Looking forward to when we have on-the-road coaching . . .

Want to really get to know your bike? Take a police motor course! Wow!

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post #8 of 42 Old Feb 16th, 2008, 10:31 am Thread Starter
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Re: MSF Rider Coaches??

Quote:
Originally Posted by taylorjn
Rider coach here. Good supportive program in MN. Looking forward to when we have on-the-road coaching . . .

Want to really get to know your bike? Take a police motor course! Wow!
Tell us about the supportive program in MN.

Bill Jennings, fhp
Denison, TX

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post #9 of 42 Old Feb 16th, 2008, 9:00 pm
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Re: MSF Rider Coaches??

RiderCoach here, and very active, taught 17 BRCs last summer and will do at least that many this summer. We are a small state and run two classes each weekend at three sites from early March through early November. The classes are always booked up well in advance. My first class is March 6,8,9. This weekend is our annual update I spent 8 hours today going over changes, updates and refresher material, tomorrow we, 42 of us will be on the range working on Demos. and practicing evaluations. If you love motorcycles and enjoy working with adults who really want to lean to ride I would highly recommend it. The hours are long, the pay is short, you will spend 6 or more hours a day two days in a row on hot asphalt or freezing your butt off. At the end of each class you will be dog tired mentally exhausted and emotionally spent, it is tough work. However it is one of the most satisfying things I have ever done. Last year, I will never forget it, when I handed a 55 year old lady her completion certificate she broke down in tears and hugged me. I firmly believe the best way to reduce motorcycle related death and injury is through rider education. This year we are introducing the Seasoned Rider Module, to address the issue of older returning riders to motorcycling.

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post #10 of 42 Old Feb 16th, 2008, 10:47 pm
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Re: MSF Rider Coaches??

Quote:
Originally Posted by bulletbill
How many rider coaches are there on this forum?? What if anything do you think we should be doing about Motorcycle safety within this community? About the ever increasing fatality rate among motorcycle ride in the upper age groups? I know that the typical BMW rider is more safety aware, but how are we effecting the motorcycle community in general?

What about a several ERC at the Curve Cowboy????
Greetings Bill!

It's easy to legislate against the young, unlike the greedy geezers, they do not have a lobby group--much less an extremely powerful one!

In Kalifornia, you DO NOT have to even take a basic rider's course (like MSF) to get a M/C endorsement. I think requiring AT LEAST a MSF Basic prior to issuing an endorsement could not hurt.

Due to the extreme numbers of suspended/unlicensed drivers in Kalifornia, more vehicle forfeitures and longer suspensions for multiple offenders would help a little.

Toughening up the penalties for "at fault" t/c's (like when the rider is embedded in your windshield) would not hurt, either.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #11 of 42 Old Feb 17th, 2008, 4:28 am
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Re: MSF Rider Coaches??

Making the successful completion of the BRC a requirement for an endorsement is, on the surface a good idea. One that is being considered in a number of states. However, there always seems to be a however. Most of the state programs do not have the required info structure to meet the demand for training that would follow. By info structure I mean, proportional increases in the number training motorcycles, approved training sites, trained and qualified RiderCoaches and all the administrative support that goes along with running a motorcycle training program. Would we be willing to increase taxes or fees to support the programs or if the program were to be self supporting how many would pay or could not afford what it would cost to take a mandatory BRC and just ride unendorsed.
My sense is, the increase in new and returning riders along with the increases in death and injury is beginning to get attention. However, there seems to be no national calling for the serious changes necessary to make a real impact on the way we train and grant motorcycle endorsements. I would love to see us adopt the much stricter requirements of many of the Europeans countries or even the graduated system used in Canada.
I think the problem is, although as motorcyclists, we see lots of motorcycles and it is true there are more and more beginning or returning to the ride, at the end of the day we are just small potatoes in the grand scheme of things.

R1200RT
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post #12 of 42 Old Feb 17th, 2008, 9:39 am
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Re: MSF Rider Coaches??

I have always wanted to teach safe motorcycling and looked into becoming a RiderCoach. Problem is, SWMBO doesn't like the idea of another activity that takes me away from home. (That includes the training that is required to become a RiderCoach.)

I get it, that RiderCoaches aren't well compensated. Does anyone know how much RiderCoaches are paid to teach the BRC and ERC here in So. California? Even if it is low pay, it might help my discussion.
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post #13 of 42 Old Feb 17th, 2008, 12:35 pm
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Re: MSF Rider Coaches??

Rider coach since 2002. Without getting in hot water with MSF HQ, I think that most will agree that there is a serious lack of other, more intense, motorcycle training in America. Whenever I hear from someone who just finished an ERC, they aren't convinced that this training had any real value to them. How many Rider Coaches out there actually think that the courses offered by MSF is all any riders will ever need?

Don't get me wrong. I think the BRC/ERC is a good start but where do we go from there? Do you really think that taking an ERC every year is going to drastically improve your survival skills on a motorcycle? How many RCs out there seem to struggle to fill the ERC slots? I for one believe riders in America are hungry for better training or some thing new and more intense. Here in NC, there are some alternatives to explore. Recently, a new and innovative approach to riders safety was initiated. Sgt. Mark Brown of the North Carolina Hwy Patrol flew to England and trained with the London Metropolitan Police Motor Unit and returned as the only "BikeSafe" instructor in The United States. His program mirrors the one taught in London. For those of you that have never heard of this program, go to this website, www.bikesafe-london.co.uk This program was started by the police in London because of the tremendous increase in motorcycle deaths. In the first 2 years of operation they were able to reduce the fatality rate by 25%. Sgt Brown started his program less than a year ago and for now, it's free. you can see his program at www.nccrimecontrol.org.

For those of you that are searching for more or different training, it's out there. Keep searching. Sgt Brown also teaches revised motor officer courses as a part time business. You can see this program at www.motomark1.com. Don't misunderstand my writings. I am not knocking the programs offered by the MSF but, my point is, I think we need to train beyond that or encourage the MSF to develop even better training.

The thing that riders don't seem to get, no matter how hard we try to tell them is, DWI is killing motorcyclists more than anything. Yet, you will see huge motorcycle events sponsored by alcohol companies or "poker runs" that have planned stops at bars with tickets for a free beer. Riders of a particular brand seem to flock to these events by the thousands. Some riders that seem to be fascinated with events such as Daytona Bike Week don't even know there is some great motorcycle racing there. They just go for the beer and spectacle of it all.

Ok, I'm done for now. JM2CW..
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post #14 of 42 Old Feb 17th, 2008, 5:02 pm
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Re: MSF Rider Coaches??

Brian,
I doubt there is a competent RiderCoach out there that believes a novice that successfully completes the BRC is road ready, far from it. I am guessing you tell your passing students the same as I, "you are now qualified to ride a small motorcycle in an empty parking lot, practice the skills you have learned here until you can perform them without thinking about it. Then venture out in traffic, not until." Of course there are ways of saying this that are not condescending or belittles their accomplishment, I have rarely had a responsible student disagree.
I could not agree with you more, we need a higher level of training in this country beyond the BRC ERC, but as that is all we have for now and I try to make the most of it. Also agree DWI is a very big problem among motorcyclists, hey at the end of the day it is always about attitudes and personal choice.

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post #15 of 42 Old Feb 17th, 2008, 5:59 pm
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Re: MSF Rider Coaches??

Quote:
Originally Posted by motorman587
10 year as a instructor/rider coach.

Age and CC should be the law. The young you are the less CC you are able to get. Basic rider course a must and also an ERC. ERC if you get a moving infaction to keep the points of your license. States should have free ERC for grant fundings.
Ohio Has subsidised funding only cost $25 for the course and the insurance companys usaly credit you the $25 on you next payment if you let lem know.

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post #16 of 42 Old Feb 17th, 2008, 6:27 pm
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Re: MSF Rider Coaches??

Quote:
Originally Posted by motorman587
10 year as a instructor/rider coach.

Age and CC should be the law. The young you are the less CC you are able to get. Basic rider course a must and also an ERC. ERC if you get a moving infaction to keep the points of your license. States should have free ERC for grant fundings.
Motorman,
I like this philosophy except for the fact that at least 50 - 60% of the students in the classes I have been the RC at are 50 or older. They have raised their children and now either want their first bike, or they want to get back into riding after 20 years off. At this age there reflexes are slower, typically their sense of balance is starting to fail. Biggest share of these either want a Harley or a big touring bike. How would we limit them?

Eventually it comes down to people need to take responsibility for their actions. Not blame others for their actions.

Here in Illinois anyone under 18 years old must pass the BRC before they can take the State exam.

ERC: Is just to help refresh skills for Experienced riders. Most if not all of us tend to develop bad habits over time, myself included. I.e. Don't practice quick stops, don't do the "What If" game, don't look through turns etc... In essence get lazy or over confident.

Roy

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post #17 of 42 Old Feb 17th, 2008, 7:19 pm
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Re: MSF Rider Coaches??

Quote:
Originally Posted by jayjacobson
In Kalifornia, you DO NOT have to even take a basic rider's course (like MSF) to get a M/C endorsement.
That is not quite true. Anyone under the age of 18 that wants a MC endorsement must take and pass the Basic MSF course. My daughter just completed the process and obtained her MC endorsement.

Of course, if you are over the age of 18, no MSF course is required.

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post #18 of 42 Old Feb 17th, 2008, 7:47 pm
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Re: MSF Rider Coaches??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian-NC
Rider coach since 2002. Without getting in hot water with MSF HQ, I think that most will agree that there is a serious lack of other, more intense, motorcycle training in America. Whenever I hear from someone who just finished an ERC, they aren't convinced that this training had any real value to them. How many Rider Coaches out there actually think that the courses offered by MSF is all any riders will ever need? ...
...
Ok, I'm done for now. JM2CW..
I used to take the ERC every few years or so. I was overdue by last year, but couldn't face yet another ERC. I have been looking for a street survival course, but none really exists. What I want is a real-world, advanced safety class for experienced urban riders.

The best that I found is the Streetmasters Precision Cornering Workshop. It is run on a track out near Lancaster, California. The class had lots of learning and fun, but was really oriented to riders who want to improve their cornering techniques in the twisties. The instructors are terrific, and the level of organization and the professionalism of everyone involved is amazing. I highly recommend it, and plan to take it again, but it isn't an urban rider safety class.

I hear that police motorcycle officer training classes are excellent, but can't seem to find any that are offered to the public in this area. Furthermore, from what I hear, most police training courses take an entire week. I would like to find one that is offered on weekends.

For lack of anything better, I highly recommend David L. Hough's books, "Proficient Motorcycling" and "More Proficient Motorcycling".
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post #19 of 42 Old Feb 17th, 2008, 7:48 pm
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Re: MSF Rider Coaches??

Axiom, glad to know you agree. Sometimes we need an honest take on what we're doing to improve. I have failed many students that I was certain couldn't ride a motorcycle. I, like you, tell my students that they are certified to ride in a parking lot. I think this is the reason so many European riders are better trained than the ones in the US. They actually give the students a road test. You may be aware of past articles in MCN which compared the UK with the US bike training. As I said before, there are alternatives to what the MSF offers. I hope to do a track day soon on this big ole battleship, the LT!

Even though I've been riding for 38 years, teach for the MSF and motomark1, I can still learn some new techniques and hopefully come away a safer rider.
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post #20 of 42 Old Feb 17th, 2008, 8:43 pm
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Re: MSF Rider Coaches??

Don't have any idea of where you are in relation to Alameda County but the Sheriffs dept there offers a 2 day motor officer course. Check this website

http://www.alamedacountysheriff.org/...otor/class.htm

It's apparently in Dublin California at the Sheriffs depts academy.
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post #21 of 42 Old Feb 17th, 2008, 9:39 pm
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Re: MSF Rider Coaches??

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Originally Posted by Brian-NC
Don't have any idea of where you are in relation to Alameda County but the Sheriffs dept there offers a 2 day motor officer course. Check this website

http://www.alamedacountysheriff.org/...otor/class.htm

It's apparently in Dublin California at the Sheriffs depts academy.
Thanks! I wish there was more information on the website, but it looks like what I want. It's in Northern California, but I would enjoy the ride up there, too.
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post #22 of 42 Old Feb 18th, 2008, 7:48 am
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Re: MSF Rider Coaches??

Glad to hear from ya Brian. I agree with most of what everyone says here, so nothing to add really. I've been a coach since '98 and have good classes and bad. I don;t feel that teh BRC prepares anyone for road experience. As somneone else said, it gives them the skills necessary to operate a small motorcycle in a parking lot. "250 Parking lot Ninjas" I've heard them called.

We can only do so much. IT comes down to what the INDIVIDUAL is willing to do for themselves.

Randy
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post #23 of 42 Old Feb 18th, 2008, 8:49 am
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Re: MSF Rider Coaches??

Quote:
Originally Posted by bulletbill
How many rider coaches are there on this forum?? What if anything do you think we should be doing about Motorcycle safety within this community? About the ever increasing fatality rate among motorcycle ride in the upper age groups? I know that the typical BMW rider is more safety aware, but how are we effecting the motorcycle community in general?

What about a several ERC at the Curve Cowboy????
well I'm a Has been Rider coach, but have been following the BS traveling around the US in circles.

IMHO the BRC is almost too basic, I understand if needs to be real basic for many of the students that have never touched a MC and for them it is a fantastic class.

I'm of the opinion though that many of the students that pass the BRC should not be near a road yet, and it does give you the ability to get your MC DL without having to take the state test, IMHO the state tests are more strict than some of the BRC coaches are trained to be so some get passed that shouldn't.

The ERC should be more difficult than it is, as well, then again, I do not know if the ever came up with a tougher class like had been talked about some years back

all this is of course a double edged sword, seeing how many states do not require MSF training at all, WHICH IMHO is good no matter what age the driver is, I say this because I think MSF has a monopoly in Motorcycle training when it comes to being able to get a MC permit out of the class you take, AND the fact I think the STATE testers are more strict for those trying to pass the MC drivers Test

MSF has become all about the money.

do some serious google searches if your really interested

Tom

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post #24 of 42 Old Feb 18th, 2008, 8:53 am
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Re: MSF Rider Coaches??

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArthurKnowles
That is not quite true. Anyone under the age of 18 that wants a MC endorsement must take and pass the Basic MSF course. My daughter just completed the process and obtained her MC endorsement.

Of course, if you are over the age of 18, no MSF course is required.
you don't in georgia. my daughter had her mc license before her auto license she was 15

Tom

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post #25 of 42 Old Feb 18th, 2008, 3:26 pm
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Re: MSF Rider Coaches??

TMGS,
The DMV written and riding teasts in my state are far easier than the BRC written and riding evaluations. Here it takes about 10 minutes, quick stop, short cone weave U turn and a 90 right. Most folks I know who took it then took our class could not believe the difference. I agree the BRC is VERY basic but that what it was intended to be. It is a learn to ride course more than anything else. But at that it does do a good job. I wish we had more time but as it is we cram as much knowledge into them as possible in 15 hours and hope some of it sticks. Like I said it is up to the individual to take what they have learned and practice.

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post #26 of 42 Old Feb 18th, 2008, 3:32 pm
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Re: MSF Rider Coaches??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axiom2000
TMGS,
The DMV written and riding teasts in my state are far easier than the BRC written and riding evaluations. Here it takes about 10 minutes, quick stop, short cone weave U turn and a 90 right. Most folks I know who took it then took our class could not believe the difference. I agree the BRC is VERY basic but that what it was intended to be. It is a learn to ride course more than anything else. But at that it does do a good job. I wish we had more time but as it is we cram as much knowledge into them as possible in 15 hours and hope some of it sticks. Like I said it is up to the individual to take what they have learned and practice.
everyone has a differrent point of view

like i said I'm a has been instructor we moved to georgia not long after the brc "rider coach" training.

too bad it seems to be turning into a push to pass the course get to the next group of riders

and I never said it was better than nothing.

Tom

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post #27 of 42 Old Feb 18th, 2008, 4:27 pm
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Re: MSF Rider Coaches??

Hey Rando!
I like to be honest and I hope it doesn't seem like I'm knocking MSF. The sad thing is, most, if not every student we certify through a BRC is sitting at DMV on Monday morning to get that "M" on their license and head straight to the house or dealership where they hop on waaaaay too much motorcycle. That's something that needs to be addressed. NCDMV has a graduated license for new, teen drivers. It restricts them to when and with whom they can drive. It shouldn't be that hard to restrict new motorcycle riders to a small bike for a certain period of time. They've been doing it Europe for years. The facts speak for themselves, they have just as many registered bikes, The population is comparable to the US, the traffic is more dense and the speeds are usually much higher. Somehow they manage to have less fatalities than the US. In Germany alone, it costs the equivalent of $1,500.00 to apply and test for a drivers license. The drivers test is two days long and includes such things as high speed control, first aid and roadside repairs. If you fail the exam, they send you packing and say, "see ya next year".

Hopefully, someday, we will see far more regulation. I know there are people reading this right now that will cry foul but, it works in other places. And, for those of you that disagree, we're all friends here, offer up some solutions.
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post #28 of 42 Old Feb 18th, 2008, 5:07 pm
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Re: MSF Rider Coaches??

There are policies for being a "rider coach"... to teach "the course"... then, the experience of the people to ask advice of the "coach". That is the time to explain how the throttle works..and the responsibility to use it wisely.

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post #29 of 42 Old Feb 18th, 2008, 5:48 pm
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Re: MSF Rider Coaches??

Well I think "Push to Pass" is a little strong and not indicative of what I do. I certainly hate to see folks fail after putting in so much effort, but on my watch if they don't make the grade they don't make the grade, thanks try again next time. I think the worst thing that could happen would be for me to cut someone some slack and give them a pass when in actuality they did not make it, then have to read about them in the paper the following week. I could not agree more we need a better more rigorous training and licensing program in this country. I am all in favor for adopting the standards used in Europe. However, until that happens at the end of the day all we can do is insure we do the best we can, the rest is up to them. It is about personal responsibility and attitude.

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post #30 of 42 Old Feb 18th, 2008, 5:51 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArthurKnowles
That is not quite true. Anyone under the age of 18 that wants a MC endorsement must take and pass the Basic MSF course. My daughter just completed the process and obtained her MC endorsement.

Of course, if you are over the age of 18, no MSF course is required.
Correct, Arthur. Minors are also subjected to a graduated DL in Kalifornia.

I believe it should extend to 21 years of age and no one under 18 should be able to get a DL, period. Also, no one under 21 should be allowed a m/c endorsement. Graduated DL's for minors has reduced the number of fatality collisions. Based upon the numbers of juve's I've caught nutting up, we still could toughen up a bit.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #31 of 42 Old Feb 18th, 2008, 8:07 pm
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Re: MSF Rider Coaches??

I don't know where the "push to pass" comes from... to me, I may have saved several lives.. some I saved by teaching them well. and they applied the skills.. others I also taught well so they realized MC riding wasn't for them. If they couldn't ride they were "counseled out".. and offered another class...If I couldn't teach them, I arranged for them to take the class from another RC if they wanted..... one thing for sure.. if they couldn't ride, they did not pass the course.. I did not have to flunk them.

...............
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post #32 of 42 Old Feb 18th, 2008, 8:37 pm
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Re: MSF Rider Coaches??

Quote:
Originally Posted by jayjacobson
I believe it should extend to 21 years of age and no one under 18 should be able to get a DL, period. Also, no one under 21 should be allowed a m/c endorsement. Graduated DL's for minors has reduced the number of fatality collisions. Based upon the numbers of juve's I've caught nutting up, we still could toughen up a bit.
That's just too narrow view than I can accept. It's not the age of a person that determines how mature and responsible a person is, but how they are raised. If you want to put the problem in it's proper perspective, it's not the child it's the parent that is responsible.

I currently live in southern CA. What I see about child rearing is scary. I'm a child from a military family, so I traveled a lot and my world view seems to be a lot different from most americans. Including child rearing & education.

Most parents out here raise children to be children when they are fully grown (notice I didn't say mature) rather than raise them to be adults. It's no surprise to me to see how they behave as adults. Nor that many of them that drive a motorcycle don't live long enough to bear childrent of their own. It's also no surprise to me that the parents of said children blame everyone but themselves for what happened.

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post #33 of 42 Old Feb 19th, 2008, 6:20 am
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Re: MSF Rider Coaches??

Quote:
Originally Posted by cfell
I don't know where the "push to pass" comes from... to me, I may have saved several lives.. some I saved by teaching them well. and they applied the skills.. others I also taught well so they realized MC riding wasn't for them. If they couldn't ride they were "counseled out".. and offered another class...If I couldn't teach them, I arranged for them to take the class from another RC if they wanted..... one thing for sure.. if they couldn't ride, they did not pass the course.. I did not have to flunk them.
+1 cfell
If they obviously can't ride talk to them. The majority of them realize it and just need a little assitance in making a potentially life saving decision.


New subject:
Has anyone else out there been to this years updates? In Illinois now a single range skill eval can accumulate enough points to fail a student. Any other states have this?

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post #34 of 42 Old Feb 19th, 2008, 7:39 am
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Re: MSF Rider Coaches??

I have not heard of that, I assume you mean you can accumulate 21 points on any single evaluation. No word of it was communicated in our update just this past weekend. It seems also that i read somewhere that the RC's in Illinois have the ability to fail a student even if they get a passing score. Anybody, is that ture?

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post #35 of 42 Old Feb 19th, 2008, 8:33 am
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Re: MSF Rider Coaches??

Quote:
Originally Posted by cfell
I don't know where the "push to pass"

around here it is dangerous to disagree. and is the reason I don't say much any more. believe what you want I don;t care.

Your MSF and your backing MSF, I'm not MSF I'm allowed to speak what I believe

letting students pass or bending the rules has been done and still does, I've seen it with my own eyes, so don't try to BS me about it. Does it happen in every class, no, do you do it? only you know that, not me. I would hope not

My opinion, make riders still take the sate test and a state testing facility, that will acomplish several things that are much needed

It will take the liability strains away from MSF, it will take the pressure off MSF from accident studies, ya know the ones saying more and more MSF passedd students are getting into accidents within 6 month;s opf passing the msf course, it looks bad and give anyone a reason to blame the msf.

you do realize as a rider coach you carry some of the liability yourself right? have you ever talked to a lawyer about protecting your assets in case a student gets injured and sues? you might want to, becasue the way some state laws are written you could still be sued personally. that was one myth we had and my wiffe and I had become instructors, but we had a liability umbrella so not particualrly worried about it.

this is my opinion, from what I have seen, read and been told . your may differ, it doesn;t make you wrong, just not as informed

do what you will, but at least do your research

I'll step back now as I'm talking to a wall

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post #36 of 42 Old Feb 19th, 2008, 8:36 am
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Re: MSF Rider Coaches??

Quote:
Originally Posted by jayjacobson
I believe it should extend to 21 years of age and no one under 18 should be able to get a DL, period. Also, no one under 21 should be allowed a m/c endorsement.
I'm glad you don't run our states laws,

Sheesh, that is absurd! hell I would not have had a job untill 21!

your midset is some kind of screwed up.

I had a mc at 14 got my DL at 15 and have rode ever since, my daughter got her MC dl at 15 as well, my son had to wait because the nazi's in fl don;t allow a mc permit until you have had a car license for a year.

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post #37 of 42 Old Feb 19th, 2008, 8:54 am
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Re: MSF Rider Coaches??

Quote:
Originally Posted by tmgs
around here it is dangerous to disagree. and is the reason I don't say much any more. believe what you want I don;t care.

Your MSF and your backing MSF, I'm not MSF I'm allowed to speak what I believe

letting students pass or bending the rules has been done and still does, I've seen it with my own eyes, so don't try to BS me about it. Does it happen in every class, no, do you do it? only you know that, not me. I would hope not

My opinion, make riders still take the sate test and a state testing facility, that will acomplish several things that are much needed

It will take the liability strains away from MSF, it will take the pressure off MSF from accident studies, ya know the ones saying more and more MSF passedd students are getting into accidents within 6 month;s opf passing the msf course, it looks bad and give anyone a reason to blame the msf.

you do realize as a rider coach you carry some of the liability yourself right? have you ever talked to a lawyer about protecting your assets in case a student gets injured and sues? you might want to, becasue the way some state laws are written you could still be sued personally. that was one myth we had and my wiffe and I had become instructors, but we had a liability umbrella so not particualrly worried about it.

this is my opinion, from what I have seen, read and been told . your may differ, it doesn;t make you wrong, just not as informed

do what you will, but at least do your research

I'll step back now as I'm talking to a wall
Tom.. I do hear you.. and grateful that you provide your input. I said previously that I am no longer an MSF instructor... and that during my classes I did NOT pass people who could not pass the course. My partner and I in the business suggested that people take the "STATE" license tests, written and riding.

That's how it was done in Texas "on my watch" ... if that's changed or an instructor is inappropriately "passing" people, that is wrong.

...............
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post #38 of 42 Old Feb 19th, 2008, 9:11 am
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Question Re: MSF Rider Coaches??

Quote:
Originally Posted by tmgs
I had a mc at 14 got my DL at 15 and have rode ever since, my daughter got her MC dl at 15 as well, my son had to wait because the nazi's in fl don;t allow a mc permit until you have had a car license for a year.
That is so utterly ridiculous. You can obtain a motorcycle driver license (note that it is NOT an endorsement) at age 16 in France, and you have to wait until you are 18 for the auto driver license. I got my first bike at 16 after riding mopeds for 2 years (minimum age is 14), and rode over 50K miles before taking the test for the auto. I was in no hurry for the auto DL since I lived in Paris and the bike was the smartest way to commute.
I really don't understand why anyone needs an auto DL to ride a bike. I found that motorcycle riding made me a better cager, and I don't think it would work the other way around.

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post #39 of 42 Old Feb 19th, 2008, 3:08 pm
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Re: MSF Rider Coaches??

Quote:
Originally Posted by tmgs
I'm glad you don't run our states laws....
....AND I'm glad EVERY time that I DO NOT have to help the coroner with a hose and mop!
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArthurKnowles
....I currently live in southern CA. What I see about child rearing is scary....
Arthur, I've seen the light: NO ONE should be allowed a m/c endorsement PRIOR to age 30!

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #40 of 42 Old Feb 19th, 2008, 3:52 pm
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Re: MSF Rider Coaches??

'We' can fight, we can kill at 18.

We can be held accountable for "civilian" deaths if "we" don't make the right judgement call, even if it costs' you your life...

But, 'we' can end up in jail forever for some crimes committed as a juvenile...

We can't have a beer at 18, legally.

I don't think smoking is allowed at 18, or 21, not sure..

Just some young thoughts from long ago passing thru my old brain, cause I didn't like it then, I don't like it now.

If we're really serious about this, logic follows the European licensing structure. I'm not sure if it really effects bike accidents per say, but it appears to be logical (small to large CC bike, etc).

I think we need SOMETHING though and MSF is a good start. At least you get a warning! I had nothing but 'get on it and go' when I got my first new bike at 18. Only knew about a helmet cause the dealer said it was the law to have one (so they got to sell one to me). I'm just glad to be alive after that, looking back

Lots of parents want them out at 18 (including yours truly), but look whats being stated here...doesn't make any sense. Am I a grown up or not? (mmm..sounds like an Alice song)..

I mean, even if its a money grab or a waste of time to some, looking back, it would have given me a little more to go on than...nothing!
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post #41 of 42 Old Feb 19th, 2008, 6:09 pm
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Re: MSF Rider Coaches??

Hopefully I'm not veering to far off course on this excellent discussion. I need the advice of you veteran instructors that have ridden the LT. I breezed thru the BRC last summer as a refresher before purchasing my new LT. Now I'm signed up for an Advanced Rider Course in April in which I 'll be riding my new LT. My new LT which I've somehow managed not to drop. My question is, how likely will it be that I will drop my new bike during this course? And should I really be that concerned about it? It's really all about improving my skills right? Am I foolish for riding this bike to an ARC?


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post #42 of 42 Old Feb 19th, 2008, 8:45 pm
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Re: MSF Rider Coaches??

TMGS,
You know, I am not sure where your coming from. You made some broad general statements about MSF. I just said I did not run my classes that way. I can't defend what other instructors do and won't even try. I was not feeding you any BS. Geesh relax will ya no need to get that way about it, this was a friendly give and take discussion.

I am aware of my liability as an instructor, I have looked into it and as long as I am teaching by the book my state will stand behind me in any liability issue. Of course if I wonder off the reservation and start straying from the curriculum I am on my own. Good enough reason for me to make sure I keep it chapter and verse eh.

I have done plenty of research and am very well informed thank you. Perhaps you would be so kind as to point out to me where the research is that indicates that 6 month MSF graduates are over represented in crashes you referred to, I would be interested in reading that.

As far as me being MSF, not true, the MSF does not define who I am at all. I am just an old guy that has ridden for years and now retired with time on my hands. I took up teaching because I am concerned about motorcycle safety and enjoy teaching people to ride. If I can help someone along the way and maybe even save someone from injury or death then great. You can try to make that sound as sinister as you want makes no difference to me.

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