Seems like terrorists are winning - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 
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post #1 of 25 Old Jan 4th, 2008, 8:24 am Thread Starter
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Seems like terrorists are winning

I don't know how many of you follow the Dakar Rally, but it's been cancelled this year.


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post #2 of 25 Old Jan 4th, 2008, 10:06 am
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And as long as people give into them, then the terrorists will continue to do so. IMHO

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post #3 of 25 Old Jan 4th, 2008, 10:32 am
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FROM THE ARTICLE:
"France-based Amaury Sport Organisation, in charge of the
6,000km rally, said in a statement they had been advised by the
French government to cancel
the race which was due to begin on
Saturday from Lisbon."


I can't believe that! The FRENCH Government giving up on an issue like that?????

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post #4 of 25 Old Jan 4th, 2008, 12:23 pm
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Disgusting and disheartening news.

Agree with Steve. I doubt whether any of the participants would find it any more dangerous with the possible threat, as it´s pretty dangerous without it.

An Apache ( or 2 ) combat helicopter patrolling the route should show them we also mean business.
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post #5 of 25 Old Jan 4th, 2008, 4:57 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simoncharles
An Apache ( or 2 ) combat helicopter patrolling the route should show them we also mean business.
Of course.
It's worked so well in the past.
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post #6 of 25 Old Jan 4th, 2008, 5:31 pm
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Just saw this on the LDrider list, and am just sick. I look forward to this every year with great enthusiam. I had set up my DVR to catch all the broadcasts, and this just ruined my weekend. The Dakar has been one of the more exciting multi week events on TV for years now.

To bad it is run by the French, they have surrendered with great enthusiam for decades now. Thus the very thin book, "Stories of great French Victories." I think it is one page, the title page. The back of that page is blank.

The French Underground did perform very well in WWII helping escaped prisioners and shot down aviators escape, but overall had little effect on the outcome of the war. The were the bright spot on French wartime history.

Now the Dakar may never be run again! All any terrorist group has to do now is threaten the French organization every year.

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post #7 of 25 Old Jan 4th, 2008, 6:41 pm
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Red face Ya ...I just saw it on the GS list too

There have been a few problems over the years. There were a few of the cars jacking's . And the Rally rerouted because of a civil uprising / war as I remember .

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post #8 of 25 Old Jan 4th, 2008, 7:38 pm
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Thumbs down Local threats as well

In addition we have the domestic terrorists .
I used to live a few blocks from this intersection in this upscale San Jose neighborhood.

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post #9 of 25 Old Jan 4th, 2008, 7:58 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dshealey
To bad it is run by the French, they have surrendered with great enthusiam for decades now. Thus the very thin book, "Stories of great French Victories." I think it is one page, the title page. The back of that page is blank.

The French Underground did perform very well in WWII helping escaped prisioners and shot down aviators escape, but overall had little effect on the outcome of the war. The were the bright spot on French wartime history.
Comparing the French government during WWII and now is akin to comparing the US economy 10 years ago and now under the current administration. Apples and oranges.
Would you host the next Olympic Games in Iraq? Probably not. The Dakar rally is run over such an extended territory that it is impossible to ensure the safety of the participants, regardless of the nationality of the organizing entity.
Would it be preferable to have drivers and riders killed by roadside bombs just to see if the terrorists really meant to carry out their threats?
I'll let you all answer that question.
It is sad indeed that the rallye had to be cancelled because of terrorism threats, but I don't think that blaming or mocking the French every chance people get will solve anything. France and other countries in Europe have been the targets of terrorists for decades, on their own soil. Imagine having a 9/11 every few years. So, to all French bashers, what is YOUR solution?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dshealey
Now the Dakar may never be run again! All any terrorist group has to do now is threaten the French organization every year.
Do you think the race would be run again if a US organization took over? Or would it bring more threats? Not sure if we'll ever find out. I am very sad the rally was cancelled as I remember when it started in Paris in the 70s.

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post #10 of 25 Old Jan 4th, 2008, 8:30 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dshealey
... All any terrorist group has to do now is threaten the French organization every year.
Oh, I see... unlike threatening the US, which went into overdrive panic mode ever since 2001?

That bashing of Europeans gets old after a while. We better have something to show for that.

I happen to notice that when it comes to really dangerous NGO work, it's the French that run it. Lemme see, which requires bigger balls: Doctors Without Borders on the ground in godforsaken hellholes, or flying B-51's and pulverizing the places from 50 thousand feet above?

And, in light of the threats which were apparently deemed credible, how would you suggest the Rallye should be run? Enclose each rider in a personal Humvee? Armored or unarmored version?

So, without ripping into each other politics (wrong forum.. ), let's just bemoan the fact that nowadays the international and intercultural tensions have come to a point where the Rallye, once seen as a tool of promoting friendship, is now perceived as an opportunity to attack Western nations.

You know, I am longing to the bad old days of the 1970's... Never thought I'd think about them with fondness.

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post #11 of 25 Old Jan 5th, 2008, 6:58 am
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I don´t think we should blame the French Government.

The main reason for cancellation is due to the insurance companies withdrawing their cover of the event.

That would mean that teams and people could be sued in case of accidents or death and would therefore be risking their personal assets if this happened.
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post #12 of 25 Old Jan 5th, 2008, 2:33 pm
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Okay.. so, when the "DAKAR" originally began, there were no "corporate" sponsors, etc.

Great.. time for more "independents" to shine.. off ya go, boys-n-gals.

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post #13 of 25 Old Jan 5th, 2008, 2:39 pm
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So, lawyers are to be more feared than terrorists? What's the difference?...

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post #14 of 25 Old Jan 5th, 2008, 2:55 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cccpastorjack
FROM THE ARTICLE:
"France-based Amaury Sport Organisation, in charge of the
6,000km rally, said in a statement they had been advised by the
French government to cancel
the race which was due to begin on
Saturday from Lisbon."

I can't believe that! The FRENCH Government giving up on an issue like that?????
Where did they hang the back-up lights along the race course?
Quote:
Originally Posted by simoncharles
....An Apache ( or 2 ) combat helicopter patrolling the route should show them we also mean business.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steveb
Of course.
It's worked so well in the past.
Kind of like bringing a knife the perverbial gun fight? Bring an Apache when you really need a C130 gunship. Bring a gunship when you really need a B-52. Too bad war is so ugly....
Quote:
Originally Posted by zippy_gg
....So, to all French bashers, what is YOUR solution?....
A little "French Humor" aside, Gilles, fair question. We would go in and do virtually nothing, then after just a few months, declare that all terrorists had been "neutralized." Then the President would fly in on a jet, like a F'G cowboy, and announce the end to all major hostilities. Meanwhile, our boys would continue being bushwacked every day by these already neutralized terrorists! Why would we do something like this? Because war is ugly and we don't have the balls to kill everybody and break things. If you wanna start a war, you better have the balls to finish it!

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #15 of 25 Old Jan 6th, 2008, 5:44 am
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Gilles,

I am British so am therefore allowed to "take the piss" of our nearest neighbours, although we are going off topic here, sorry.

Type in " french military victories" in Google and click I feel lucky .

Santé,

Simon
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post #16 of 25 Old Jan 6th, 2008, 5:56 am
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We all know that the French outlawed fireworks because every time a firecracker went off the government surrendered...............

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post #17 of 25 Old Jan 6th, 2008, 6:15 am
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Or that they couldn´t join the "War on terror" because their white flag factory burnt down just before it started.
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post #18 of 25 Old Jan 6th, 2008, 6:15 am
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Here is something to lighten things up a bit.

http://www.miamiherald.com/dave_barry/story/359826.html
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post #19 of 25 Old Jan 6th, 2008, 10:30 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simoncharles
Or that they couldn´t join the "War on terror" because their white flag factory burnt down just before it started.
Your being-British permission aside, this really irks me and burns me up since the whole affair started: countries where sanity prevailed, are vilified as cowards?

Cowards by virtue of not wanting to join Dubya's personal adventure? By doubting his assurances of WMD's - and being right about that? By not seeing how carpet-bombing a country turns in into a garden of democracy - and being right about that?

Apparently, if one is smart, we call him a coward. If one is a war criminal, we call him a hero.

Well, count me in with the cowards.

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post #20 of 25 Old Jan 6th, 2008, 10:50 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rattler50
We all know that the French outlawed fireworks because every time a firecracker went off the government surrendered...............
People that live in glass houses... you know that one, don't you? Feeling cocky based on a 63-year old victory (hard to believe it is so far back already) is quite unjustified and very dangerous.

I should just remind you that ever since then, the ratio of engagements that we supposedly won to those where we left with tails between our legs beaten by some godforsaken small countries, would be nil if you could not count the glorious victory over the global superpower of Grenada.

Cocky people cause trouble and leave the cleanup for others. Nice.

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post #21 of 25 Old Jan 6th, 2008, 1:35 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdwalker
, or flying B-51's and pulverizing the places from 50 thousand feet above?
I don't mean to be picky - but when you say something like that, I'm inclined to seriously question your understanding of military action and foreign policy - let alone appreciate your comments on national security.

A statement like that puts you into the 'emotional anti-war' thinkers "pigeon-hole". I don't think that's what you're after.


A contemporary P-51 - restored. They haven't been in active service for several decades now.


A B-52 bomber - a tool of the US' strategic forces.

Only reference to a "B-51" I could find was for an experimental plane called the XB-51. I really don't think it was ever used for anything over foreign soil.

Also note: 50K is the 52's ceiling, not it's operational altitude. But I think I understand your inference anyway. But is it valid?

NGOs - like doctors without boarders - aren't agents of government, but military forces are. Maybe who sent them and their assigned mission would have more to do with the methods of implementation?

Following your inference further, I'm sure everyone around the world would simply LOVE it if the US Army showed up in their city center to operate a medical clinic. That's sure to go over very well.

As offensive as French bashing is - so is bashing the US military.

Inferring that pilots are somehow lesser people due to their doing their job in the air instead of on the ground... I don't think you mean that. Or do you mean to say the US has no right to defense? We should just accommodate our attackers?

I'm sorry to say your sensationalistic idiom is so out of context with reality, I'm not sure what you mean.

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post #22 of 25 Old Jan 6th, 2008, 4:42 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdwalker
....countries where sanity prevailed, are vilified as cowards?

Cowards by virtue of not wanting to join Dubya's personal adventure? By doubting his assurances of WMD's - and being right about that? By not seeing how carpet-bombing a country turns in into a garden of democracy - and being right about that?

Apparently, if one is smart, we call him a coward. If one is a war criminal, we call him a hero....
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdwalker
People that live in glass houses... you know that one, don't you?....Cocky people cause trouble and leave the cleanup for others. Nice.
Robert, your analysis is interesting, but a little off. Just because one is a "war criminal" as you put it, doesn't make one any less of a coward. Being cocky will usually get you into trouble because you're almost never as good as you think you are! Being a coward will get you into trouble because this world is governed by the aggressive use of force.

Now, this is where we get in trouble! If you "declare war," you then have to have the balls to kill everyone and break things. If you have a situation like, say, Iraq, war is foolish. War's an ugly thing, not to be engaged in lightly.

Anyone who has the balls to stand up for what he believes in, when questioned about his beliefs, is not a coward in my book--whether I agree with them or not. I will remove you from the coward column.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #23 of 25 Old Jan 6th, 2008, 8:14 pm
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OK, Zotter and Jay: you are both right.

I got so furious that I put down random B-designators (shame on me, I am an aviation-history buff). And no, I did not consider the pilots being cowards.

The point that I am trying to convey is: the international situation is severe. It is a shame that events that were once designed to be quite innocuous and were intended to promote friendship between different cultures (in addition to having some serious fun blasting through the dunes ) have now become targets of extremists - who are effective enough to cause a cancellation. Yet, instead of considering that issue and its ramifications for international rallying and travel - not even mentioning our general lifestyle and wellbeing - the response of most forum members is to run around calling the French chicken.

According to them, that is the root problem. And that is exactly what bothers me so much. Am I wrong?

Anyway, hopefully the Rallye will resume. Believe or not, I already canceled my early January 2009 ski vacations (I do stay at a place in Colorado that requires a year's advance notice) and have been planning to travel to Spain and North Africa to spectate at few of the Dakar stages for about a week. Needless to say, recent developments are very troubling - they could spell the demise of the Rallye altogether.

Let's hope not.

Robert in Northern NJ

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post #24 of 25 Old Jan 12th, 2008, 9:34 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simoncharles
Gilles,

I am British so am therefore allowed to "take the piss" of our nearest neighbours, although we are going off topic here, sorry.

Type in " french military victories" in Google and click I feel lucky .

Santé,

Simon
That is indeed pretty funny. Another fun fact is that most French victories were also English defeats... and vice-versa!

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post #25 of 25 Old Jan 13th, 2008, 7:12 am
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Touché .

All this doesn´t stop me considering France the best place ever to have a holiday AND ride a bike.
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