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post #1 of 37 Old Aug 5th, 2007, 4:52 pm Thread Starter
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Unhappy inexperienced rider

I had a 20yo kid killed 100 ft from my house last night, he apparently lost control of his 3 day old crotch rocket and ran into a caution sign. Police said speed was not a factor, he was only doing 55. A true shame and waste of life.
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post #2 of 37 Old Aug 5th, 2007, 5:41 pm
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What was he wearing?

Did he have a helmet? Jacket? I'm betting he did not.

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post #3 of 37 Old Aug 5th, 2007, 6:28 pm
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Been several lost around here on crotch rockets. I was mowing grass today and saw a couple ride by with their shorts on. The girl all humped up and hanging on for dear life. That can't be a fun way to ride.........

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post #4 of 37 Old Aug 5th, 2007, 6:45 pm
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Messy 13 could expand on this ,but he said that a majority of a group of 600 riding buds died via crashing around Zanesville OH..I think the number was 5..more ammo for graduated licencing e.g. Europe. I think it happened w/in a couple of days.

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post #5 of 37 Old Aug 5th, 2007, 6:53 pm
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Not sure of the circumstances, but makes you wonder if he committed a fatal mistake that novice riders tend to make. i.e. - fixating vision on the obstable you actually want to avoid. You start to lose control, see the sign, panic and start repeating, "Don't hit the sign, don't hit the sign!" And, because your motorcycle goes where you look, you hit the sign.

Many riders are killed on a lonely road...no other cars involved and they hit the one mailbox, telephone pole or sign on the road. Remember guys, your bike goes where you look. If you want to miss the sign, fixate on the escape route, not the obstacle.

Sad to hear this story. Sorry you had to see it Mike. Way too many novice riders on race-ready beasts.




Quote:
Originally Posted by sheldan2
I had a 20yo kid killed 100 ft from my house last night, he apparently lost control of his 3 day old crotch rocket and ran into a caution sign. Police said speed was not a factor, he was only doing 55. A true shame and waste of life.

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Cornelius, NC USA
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post #6 of 37 Old Aug 5th, 2007, 7:27 pm Thread Starter
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actually happened on the way back from your house Jack.
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post #7 of 37 Old Aug 5th, 2007, 8:37 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheldan2
actually happened on the way back from your house Jack.

Wow, did you see it happen or arrive on the scene after the fact?

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post #8 of 37 Old Aug 6th, 2007, 1:08 am Thread Starter
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was after the fact, the cops were painting the road etc
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post #9 of 37 Old Aug 6th, 2007, 7:26 am
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I don;t think a lot of inexperienced riders truly understand all the theory that they need to. I see a lot of folks in the Basic Rider Course that don;t even begin to understand the "Look" step of riding. Yes, one can do the exercises in class in any number of wrong ways. And we all have screwed up at some point, but all this stuff becoomes imperative when you have screwed up a little, and proper technique and good HABITS would really save your hide.

Sheldan said speed was not a factor, but 55 is a pretty high rate of speed to crash, even if it was legal. It's a shame to hear about folks losing their lives in any kind of crash, be it a car, truck, or motorcycle. And inexperience contributes to this greatly.

Saturday, I had an older guy, two up, on some sort of HD cruiser nearly run into me head on while he was making a right turn. He came about a foot over the double yellow, looking me right in the eyes basically and kept coming. I was slowing for the stop sign and eased over to the left for him. He finally got it in his own lane. I raised my hands and was clapping for him (I was in a foul mood anyway). he probably thought I was applauding his Harley though. It's not like this is a hard turn to make. I make it regularly - wide lanes, but does turn from a level road onto a hill. People need to learn to ride better before they kill or injure themsleves. MONEY to buy does not make one a MOTORCYCLIST!!!!!

Such a shame.

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post #10 of 37 Old Aug 6th, 2007, 8:31 am
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I live on a narrow, winding, badly paved and hilly road, at one end of which is a private college. 5 kids from that college have been killed in motor vehicle related incidents in the past 3 years, on my street or a nearby cross street. Last year I crested one of the hills to find a yellow crotch rocket down on the pavement, fairing parts scattered all over. The rider was at the side of the road. I stopped, hit the hazard blinkers, and went over to him. In his favor, he had on a leather racing jacket and had been wearing a full face helmet. When I asked him if he was OK he said that he was fine, and then wailed "But look at my bike. I only got it yesterday!" I'll bet he still had his learner's permit and had never taken a riding course. Tough way to learn, but he was one of the lucky ones instead of one of the dead ones.

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post #11 of 37 Old Aug 6th, 2007, 11:37 am
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We had this over the weekend...

Quote:

SACRAMENTO -- Two area men were killed Saturday in separate motorcycle accidents.

Jarrad Cole, 18, of Fair Oaks, crashed at about 11:50 a.m. as he was leaving a driveway in the 8500 block of Nephi Way.

Cole, a top scorer for Sacramento Waldorf's basketball team last season, had recently obtained his permit and was practicing riding his 2003 Suzuki RS motorcycle, purchased just two days earlier, according to a report from the California Highway Patrol.

The CHP said Cole accidently "popped a wheelie" as he accelerated through a left-hand curve, then lost control of the motorcycle, landing on a neighboring embankment landscaped with river rocks and railroad tie timbers.

Cole was taken to Mercy San Juan Medical Center, where he died less than an hour later. Cole was wearing a helmet at the time of the collision.

Christopher Ramos, 22, of Sacramento, died at about 3:30 a.m. after his motorcycle skidded out of control near American River Drive and Howe Avenue and hit a building, according to Sacramento Police Lt. Don Rehm.

Autopsies are pending on both men.

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post #12 of 37 Old Aug 6th, 2007, 11:50 am
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One problem is new riders don't understand countersteering. They try to turn the bars where they want to go while at speed and the bike goes the opposite way. We watched some bikers making a right hand turn at a light. All five of them took both lanes as they wobbled and fought thru the turn. But they looked cool.



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post #13 of 37 Old Aug 6th, 2007, 3:57 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grifscoots
One problem is new riders don't understand countersteering. They try to turn the bars where they want to go while at speed and the bike goes the opposite way. We watched some bikers making a right hand turn at a light. All five of them took both lanes as they wobbled and fought thru the turn. But they looked cool.
This is the key - It is a perfect example of control reversal in which people don't realize the control input required to make a bicycle (or motorcycle) go where wanted.

As a kid learning to ride two wheels, we wiggled the handlebars until the bicycle stayed upright, and then went on to better things without realizing in detail what we were doing. We got by with it as kids on bicycles, but motorcycles have to operate in a lethal environment.

If a rider thinks he has to lean (bend) his body or look somewhere to make a M/C turn, it will still work 99 percent of the time with his subconscious inputs even though the actual control input is reversed handlebar torque (counter steer). But if I hold a big enough gun to his head, and he doesn't know exactly what to do and why, he will sometime be made history.

It has nothing to do with where he looks, or even simply smoothly teaching the "push on the handlebars concept". It has to do with understanding the terrible effects of control reversal. This is a boobytrap paradox that I strongly feel should be emphasized in the Basic Rider Course.

The Wright brothers were the first to write about this, observing that virtually everyone didn't understand the inputs necessary to steer two wheels.
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post #14 of 37 Old Aug 6th, 2007, 4:11 pm
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okay, that's very interesting, to me at least. Yes, you have to look. Yes your body has to give the vehicle, in this case a motorcycle, the proper inputs. And I feel like it should be instinctive. If it's not, then a person is NOT ready to be on the streets.

Not sure how or what comes next in the learning process. I am very interested in stuff like this, in order to help those that think they want to ride to learn to do it.

This stuff may not be applicable in the deaths that have been described in this thread, but it is interesting anyway.

Randy
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post #15 of 37 Old Aug 6th, 2007, 5:23 pm
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I never thought I would say this, but I now fear being run down by another bike more than a cage. This summer has been the worst I have even seen with regard to recklessness, lack of skill and protective gear. I'm not one for more laws, but there really needs to be a bit of a shock campaign targeted at these kids on their media of choice. Not the usual "Be safe or dead" speech, but show them the brain injured cripples that survive, drool, and need a diaper. Maybe that will give a few pause before doing wheelstands on the interstate.

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post #16 of 37 Old Aug 6th, 2007, 6:04 pm
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You would have to do something 'one on one' to be effective and that would be like shoveling against the tide.

Young riders are generally looking at someone else to see if they are looking cool enough. That is the reason they bought the bike in the first place.

IMO, the biggest problem is young riders really don't think anything will happen to them.. only to some other fool.

Some of the passengers are even more clueless. You can tell experienced pillions they actually look relaxed. Maybe not well equipped (except for skin).. Some of these young girls actually look terrified on the back of of some crotch rockets. I know I would be. If I ain't the pilot I ain't going (period .)

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post #17 of 37 Old Aug 6th, 2007, 6:15 pm
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The problem is that people only react when something effects them directly. You wouldn't be able to just sit down and reason with them.
It will most likely end up with horsepower limits and/or a graduated licensing structure a la Europe.

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post #18 of 37 Old Aug 6th, 2007, 10:34 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rando
okay, that's very interesting, to me at least. Yes, you have to look. Yes your body has to give the vehicle, in this case a motorcycle, the proper inputs. And I feel like it should be instinctive. If it's not, then a person is NOT ready to be on the streets.

Not sure how or what comes next in the learning process. I am very interested in stuff like this, in order to help those that think they want to ride to learn to do it.

Randy
To understand where I'm coming from, I'm a retired hydraulics controls engineer (mechanical).

The originating post (where a squid drove directly into a signpost) is the consequence of a control reversal. If that driver thought he could make a motorcycle go where he wanted by bending his torso and turning the handlebars away from the post, he would actually be sucked right into a direct impact. It is an example where what a person has been incorrectly told much of his life and since he believes it, gives exactly the correct input to the handlebars to hit the post. Unfortunately that is not the desired outcome.

For some reason there is a lot of emphasis on where to look in driver training. The reasoning for that is not made crystal clear, and I can successfully go around a corner looking most anywhere. Depending on traffic threats I may even do that. I don't think it is correct to say it is necessary for control.

The BRC instructor also said that countersteering only applies at higher speeds. That's incorrect in my book as it applies right down to near-zero speed, only technically the amount needed goes inversely as the square of the speed.

Even after 35 years of motorcycling I still have to remind myself about countersteering in demanding situations. The greenhorn especially needs to understand this paradox with his new toy.
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post #19 of 37 Old Aug 6th, 2007, 11:14 pm
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Don't know if it happened in this situation.... but if it did then I think it borders on criminal that a motorcycle can be sold to someone without proper instruction.

I just don't get it... sorry, guys, this just pi$$es me off... yeah.. a little out of character for the Deacon... my apology....

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post #20 of 37 Old Aug 6th, 2007, 11:28 pm Thread Starter
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I think the only instruction some of these kids get is " keep one hand on the throttle and the other on the left hip and try look as cool as possible". Keep a look out for these guys on their rockets and keep a tally on how many ride like this.
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post #21 of 37 Old Aug 7th, 2007, 7:13 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by niel_petersen
To understand where I'm coming from, I'm a retired hydraulics controls engineer (mechanical).

The originating post (where a squid drove directly into a signpost) is the consequence of a control reversal. If that driver thought he could make a motorcycle go where he wanted by bending his torso and turning the handlebars away from the post, he would actually be sucked right into a direct impact. It is an example where what a person has been incorrectly told much of his life and since he believes it, gives exactly the correct input to the handlebars to hit the post. Unfortunately that is not the desired outcome.

For some reason there is a lot of emphasis on where to look in driver training. The reasoning for that is not made crystal clear, and I can successfully go around a corner looking most anywhere. Depending on traffic threats I may even do that. I don't think it is correct to say it is necessary for control.

The BRC instructor also said that countersteering only applies at higher speeds. That's incorrect in my book as it applies right down to near-zero speed, only technically the amount needed goes inversely as the square of the speed.

Even after 35 years of motorcycling I still have to remind myself about countersteering in demanding situations. The greenhorn especially needs to understand this paradox with his new toy.
I *think* the emphasis on the "look" part is to avoid target fixation. Look where you want to go. If your body is trained properly, then the body will respond properly with proper inputs. Yes, experienced riders know that they can look almost anywhere and make a given turn. When looking in the proper direction becomes critical, IMO, is when you really need to avoid something, i.e. a signpost, edge of the road, etc.

I can ride the U turn box on the class bikes by looking down at the gas cap. I feel my body is trained well enough to do the U turn box on class bikes that the look is not as important. Put me on the LT in the box and the look becomes more important.

All these things, countersteering, looking, braking with BOTH brakes, etc. becomes most critical when in, what you call it, a demanding situation.

All of the skills involoved in riding a motorcycle must become second nature. I had a close call once where I was looking at a stopped white Ford F150. It pulled right out in front of me. I remember looking at that big white door, then being past it. Only later was I able to think about it and dissect what actions my brain and body took to get me out of that situation. I guess I went on "auto pilot"?

I feel that's how a person must be able to respond. Without thinking.

And yeah, I think there should be a graduated system in the US. Some sort of limitation that keeps someone with little or NO experience from going out and buying a 150+hp bike. Or even a 65 hp bike like a Harley. These bikes have too much bulk, power, torque for most beginning riders. Without experience, the fine motor skills needed are not there to control these big, heavier, more powerful bikes. Motorcycling could be more fun, learning to ride a smaller bike, I think. Where the rider didn't have to be so stressed about what's happening around them as they try to keep up or whatever.

A young buck here at work has recently bought a 600 sportbike and often tells me about his latest close call. And most of that comes from his riding style, which could be best described as "balls to the wall". No previous bike experience. no training. just doing it. Scary to me.

Randy
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post #22 of 37 Old Aug 7th, 2007, 9:00 am
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Speaking of inexperienced riders . . . the morning paper said that a woman was killed on I-40 (mountains of NC and Tenn) when her bike drifted wide and under the wheels of a tractor trailer. She had been riding for several weeks.
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post #23 of 37 Old Aug 7th, 2007, 11:52 am
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I simply don't get what's wrong with graduated licensing.

Why should a 16 year old be able to take a drivers ed course, take a test and then blast around in a Ferrari? Why should a would-be motorcyclist be able to ride around a carpark a couple of times on a nice little stable and underpowered cruiser then go out and scream down the road on a crotch rocket? It makes no sense.

If people aren't capable of knowing their own limits it is perfectly reasonable to have some limits imposed on what they are allowed to do. For example, it seems reasonable that if you pass your test on a 250cc machine that you should be prohibited from riding a Bluebird or a K1200GT until you've had a bit of experience. If you pass your test on a K1200GT then fine.

The graduations only cause problems when they are over-restrictive. How else is anyone supposed to stops these kids killing themselves, and what is worse taking innocent bystanders with them? What price their freedom?

I have to agree that I too have been scared out of my wits by some of the bikers that have gone past me this summer...

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post #24 of 37 Old Aug 7th, 2007, 2:07 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brianbeemer
I simply don't get what's wrong with graduated licensing.
I'm with you 150% but the same people who bitch about wearing a helmet are going to bitch about having a graduated license. They want that big Harley (or the big Sport Bike) and they want it now.

I guess it was just my dumb luck but when I started riding in the 70's bikes weren't that big and - even better for me - all I could afford was a 250cc Kawasaki. Years later I bought a "big" BMW R65.

The 40/50 something rider - who is just getting into motorcycles - isn't going to ride a 250cc anything. 250cc motorcycles just don't have the image.

I’ve told this story before but it’s worth repeating –

Several years ago my wife and I were driving to the beach. I stopped at a stoplight in one little town and watched in my rearview mirror as some “rugged individualists” pulled up behind me. One guy could hardly keep his bike up.

The light turned green and we drove/rode off. There was a stretch where the road turned to four lanes (two in each direction). There was also a 25 mph left turn ahead but apparently the “rugged individualists” didn’t know that because they accelerated and passed me. (I was already doing 40 mph.)

I turned to my wife and said: “Watch this!” (Honest to goodness. I said that!)

All of the bikes went into the turn way too fast but the one who was having trouble at the light was going even faster. He tried to make the turn but drug his floorboard and immediately the bike straightened up. He shot across my lane (I had slowed considerably, thank goodness), jumped the curb, ran through an abandoned service station, took out some car tires, and rode back onto the road again. It was a hoot to watch (because he didn’t get hurt) but it could have been serious. And his dumb “rugged individualist” buddies just stopped in the middle of the road and watched.

If that dumb bell had been riding on a graduated license he wouldn’t have been riding a bike that was too big for him and he wouldn’t have almost killed himself.
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post #25 of 37 Old Aug 7th, 2007, 2:37 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rando
I *think* the emphasis on the "look" part is to avoid target fixation. Randy
That original squid-into-the-sign post rider probably was looking at the signpost very diligently, as it is hard to ignore something that is about to kill you. It certainly didn't help him avoid it.

Our rider instruction system has to give riders the correct mental tools. I don't think "look where you want to go" is effective at all and should be dumped.
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post #26 of 37 Old Aug 7th, 2007, 3:49 pm
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Okay, where shall we teach them to look? At what they are about to hit? Keep an eye on it? the military has done plenty of study on target fixation. So if you look towards the RESOLUTION, i.e. where you want to go, I think you;d have a better chance of getting there.

All the rider education system does is teach them basic skills in a parking lot. That's all. Doesn't teach them to ride on the roads. Gives them a quick study of the skill set needed to ride a motorcycle. At some point it is up to the individual to imp[rove these skills into something useable.

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post #27 of 37 Old Aug 7th, 2007, 4:51 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sofitel505
I never thought I would say this, but I now fear being run down by another bike more than a cage. This summer has been the worst I have even seen with regard to recklessness, lack of skill and protective gear. I'm not one for more laws, but there really needs to be a bit of a shock campaign targeted at these kids on their media of choice. Not the usual "Be safe or dead" speech, but show them the brain injured cripples that survive, drool, and need a diaper. Maybe that will give a few pause before doing wheelstands on the interstate.
I use my LT for commuting daily and have to agree. The past several months with the decent weather have seen a huge increase in number of riders out there. I don't like it when in my mirror appears a rider that wasn't there a fraction of a second earlier and is following me way too close in heavy traffic. I do all I can to help them get as far away from me as possible and watch them continue on their slalom race course down I-5 between and around cars.

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post #28 of 37 Old Aug 7th, 2007, 5:47 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by niel_petersen
Our rider instruction system has to give riders the correct mental tools. I don't think "look where you want to go" is effective at all and should be dumped.
Please elaborate. Where would you have them look? What else would you have them do?

Mike
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post #29 of 37 Old Aug 7th, 2007, 11:51 pm
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I'll bet any video arcade game with a motorcycle race game will have direct input steer control (like a car) rather than demonstrate counter steer. These bad examples are started at a young age. Counter steer should be taught as part of an eighth grade science curriculum. It can easily be demonstrated by driving a bicycle through a puddle , making a sharp turn, and analyzing the wheel tracks.

But assuming we can't get that done, the next best approach has to be in the basic rider's course, where there should be a discussion of the control paradox and how avoidance fixation can result in a collision unless these preconceived thoughts (i.e. lean-to-turn) are unlearned.

The need for practice can then be pointed out. I contend that for most any level of rider there is a threat level which if exceeded, may trigger an incorrect response. Experience is necessary to push this triggering threat level high enough that it should never be encountered. Frankly, after 40 years I'm not sure I'm there yet.

Looking-where-you-want-to-go can be certainly be mentioned as an additional aid to rigorous counter steering control, but in itself, the looking concept is too weak for an inexperienced rider to rely on for correct inputs.
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post #30 of 37 Old Aug 7th, 2007, 11:58 pm
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In my area, since early Spring, there has been about one a week killed. Most seem to be rider error, not all though.

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post #31 of 37 Old Aug 8th, 2007, 1:45 am
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California superbike race school that built a bike with a 2nd set of fixed handle bars. True handles in that they're fixed to the frame and not connected to the triple tree/fork in any way. Just something to hold on to. Called the "No BS" bike. They put their students on it and challenge them to steer the thing by leaning. Quite the eye opener.
Check this thing out:
http://www.superbikeschool.com/multi-media/nobs.php

Keith Code's school http://www.superbikeschool.com/

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post #32 of 37 Old Aug 8th, 2007, 7:30 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by niel_petersen
I'll bet any video arcade game with a motorcycle race game will have direct input steer control (like a car) rather than demonstrate counter steer. These bad examples are started at a young age. Counter steer should be taught as part of an eighth grade science curriculum. It can easily be demonstrated by driving a bicycle through a puddle , making a sharp turn, and analyzing the wheel tracks.

But assuming we can't get that done, the next best approach has to be in the basic rider's course, where there should be a discussion of the control paradox and how avoidance fixation can result in a collision unless these preconceived thoughts (i.e. lean-to-turn) are unlearned.

The need for practice can then be pointed out. I contend that for most any level of rider there is a threat level which if exceeded, may trigger an incorrect response. Experience is necessary to push this triggering threat level high enough that it should never be encountered. Frankly, after 40 years I'm not sure I'm there yet.

Looking-where-you-want-to-go can be certainly be mentioned as an additional aid to rigorous counter steering control, but in itself, the looking concept is too weak for an inexperienced rider to rely on for correct inputs.
Countersteering is taught in the basic rider course. Looking where the rider wants to go is stressed in every exercise, even from the beginning, to help smooth the take-off. A student who is looking down will have problems starting smoothly in a straight line, in my experience. So the opbjective is to get the student looking ahead to see the things they will need to respond to.

Countersteering is worked on in at least three exercises, with it touched on in others. And even taught in the swerving and lane changing exercisies. 2 more. So 5 out of 17 exercises have a degree of sountersteering in them.

Most students do figure it out. Not maybe the best or to the degree an experienced street rider may. Most folks don;t realize that they have done it on a bicycle at some point. And we don;t necessarily call it countersteering every time we try it. Folks will get lost in thinking about it. Teach them to lean the bike by pressing the handgrip in the direction they want to go. Then they are countersteering.

There are more parts to learning basic skills than countersteering. And in a short course, only a limited amount of time can be spent on it. The one exercises that puts it all together, as well as the eval exercise, are probably as tought a turn as you will enounter on the road, to do it correctly, in the time that we are looking for. It's not often that you will encounter a 135 degree turn in regular riding. yes, on twisty mountain roads. But normally that is not a regular daily event. And it's probably a shorter radius than normal roads would be.

I do agree with your statement that when pushed, a rider may respond incorrectly, thus the need for practice. Every rider should be responsible for practicing and knowing how their bike will respond in such situations. On the range, I can hang off the LT and corner like crazy, till parts scrape. Put me on an unfamiliar road, however, and that looseness goes away, replaced by caution and a bit more stiffness, which I'd like to get rid of.

Great discussion, btw.

Randy
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post #33 of 37 Old Aug 8th, 2007, 7:55 am
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Countersteering (and particularly the control paradox) was hardly discussed in the BRC I had to take to be an instructor. I lost my enthusiasm when I realized that I really couldn't (and shouldn't) teach the curriculum with my background.

To the other responder with the fixed handlebar experiment - that would be effective!
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post #34 of 37 Old Aug 8th, 2007, 8:07 am
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the control paradox would be a great thing to use in your classes. there is some room for instructor to use their own experiences. and here, they touch on it in instructor prep, but leave it to you to develop your own methods for making the point. everyone I work with has their own methods and I like them all. if a student is going to get it, they do. If not, we still can't stop them from riding a motorcycle, no matter how badly they do it. Our job as instructors or coaches (whatever) is to trey to expose the students to a good basic method. We can't worry about how each one does after class. that would drive one nuts in a short period.

Sorry you didn't continue to instruct. Sounds like you would have been a good one.

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post #35 of 37 Old Aug 8th, 2007, 12:36 pm
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This discussion got me thinking about this being something that should be in 8th grade (or whatever) science. This will never happen of course (instead they are busy with diversity training), but given the fraction of students that will eventually drive two wheeled vehicles, I think a public safety case could be made for its inclusion before becoming an adult.

Arcade games could be changed, although they should also have the kinesthetic force feedback built into their systems. I understand most of the aircraft simulators have the force feedback outputs now using hardware that is routinely available at computer stores.

Question to all - Are there any corresponding computer motorcycle games that have a correct steer input and counterforce output? That sort of thing might be a good classroom training device.
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post #36 of 37 Old Aug 8th, 2007, 1:06 pm
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I play Tourist Trophy a lot and you steer the way you want to go. Normal steering. They could make it an option though.

It would be at least a good discussion that applies in the real world more than the periodic table. most everyone rides a bicycle, which would make it real world to the students.

Randy
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post #37 of 37 Old Aug 9th, 2007, 8:15 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheldan2
I had a 20yo kid killed 100 ft from my house last night, he apparently lost control of his 3 day old crotch rocket and ran into a caution sign. Police said speed was not a factor, he was only doing 55. A true shame and waste of life.
Speed was not a factor? So, if he was ONLY doing 10 or 20 over, then speed is not a factor? Just out of curiosity, how fast would he have to be doing for speed to be a factor?!

I would say that speed was the main factor. If he hit the caution sign (which is pure irony in itself) at 35, instead of 55, he MIGHT BE ALIVE to learn from it!
Quote:
Originally Posted by niel_petersen
....It is a perfect example of control reversal in which people don't realize the control input required to make a bicycle (or motorcycle) go where wanted....If a rider thinks he has to lean (bend) his body or look somewhere to make a M/C turn, it will still work 99 percent of the time with his subconscious inputs even though the actual control input is reversed handlebar torque (counter steer)....It has nothing to do with where he looks, or even simply smoothly teaching the "push on the handlebars concept". It has to do with understanding the terrible effects of control reversal. This is a boobytrap paradox that I strongly feel should be emphasized in the Basic Rider Course....
When I used to drive Fords, and spent a lot of time on the side of the road, broken down, I would contemplate paradoxes. Booby trap paradoxes aside, SLOW DOWN. The number 1 thing you can do to avoid going tits up on your bike! WTF, a little safety gear never hurt, either.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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Last edited by jayjacobson; Aug 9th, 2007 at 8:49 am. Reason: Let's get the poster right!
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