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post #1 of 71 Old Apr 25th, 2007, 9:22 pm Thread Starter
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Angry Speeding Tickets

Is it mandatory for you to sign a speeding ticket or can you refuse. I have refused before and the LEO just wrote refused on the ticket. However I got one the other day and refused and was threatened with arrest and towing my bike so I signed. Also is the ticket valid if something is marked wrong or if something was written over as to cover a mistake ? This all takes place in Ohio the Ticket Capital of the US. Thanks WAL
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post #2 of 71 Old Apr 25th, 2007, 9:57 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WAL
Is it mandatory for you to sign a speeding ticket or can you refuse. I have refused before and the LEO just wrote refused on the ticket. However I got one the other day and refused and was threatened with arrest and towing my bike so I signed. Also is the ticket valid if something is marked wrong or if something was written over as to cover a mistake ? This all takes place in Ohio the Ticket Capital of the US. Thanks WAL
I'll share my opinions, observations, and experiences. If you want legal advice, consult an attorney licensed to practice in your area.

In Texas, a traffic stop for which you receive a notice of violation/ticket/summons/citation is essentially an arrest. Your signature on the citation is not an admission of guilt, merely your promise to appear at the specified location by a certain time. Should you not give your promise in writing, the officer can instanter you and take you before a magistrate. Of course, to do that, they have to book you into the jail and the magistrate will see you within 72 hours.

Taking it a step further, you do not have to be offered the opportunity to give your promise to appear. In Texas, you can be instantered for almost any moving violation except speeding or open container. The officer may have to justify this decision to their supervisor after the fact, but you are still going to take the ride.

That said. . . I counsel our officers that the better course of action is to write refused on the citation in the signature block and be done with it. We also tell them not to threaten arrest or impound of a vehicle unless they are fully prepared to do so and are also prepared to articulate why in a written report. There is usually a lot more good that officer can do on the street than he can being stuck transporting some wanker and booking him in.

As for whether the ticket is valid or not, that is a question of fact, and the magistrate is the finder of fact. I have not seen many tickets dismissed solely on such technicalities as this in Texas because the citation is not the charging instrument, the "complaint" is. If the complaint has an error, it can be corrected and re-filed.

Since I'm offering my personal opinions, let me share this last one with you -- On the side of the road is not the place or time to try your case. Save it for the court. By the time you get there, you'll have some time and distance between you and the event and may likely be in a better position to make your case.

YMMV

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post #3 of 71 Old Apr 26th, 2007, 12:01 am
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Check with the laws of your state. In California, where I am an LEO, you will go to jail. Signing a ticket is your promise to appear/take care of the ticket. It is not an admission of guilt.

Mike
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post #4 of 71 Old Apr 26th, 2007, 4:32 am
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A crime in Florida.

Ditto with Mike, it is against the law in Florida not to sign. We then impound your vehicle which adds up to the bond money for you to get out.

Ditto with Deputy5211 about the side of the road is no place to argue about the ticket or to sign or not. Ditto about hiring an attorney. I am friends with most of our traffic lawyers. They will get the job done for ya.
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post #5 of 71 Old Apr 26th, 2007, 4:55 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WAL
Is it mandatory for you to sign a speeding ticket or can you refuse. I have refused before and the LEO just wrote refused on the ticket. However I got one the other day and refused and was threatened with arrest and towing my bike so I signed. Also is the ticket valid if something is marked wrong or if something was written over as to cover a mistake ? This all takes place in Ohio the Ticket Capital of the US. Thanks WAL
Greetings Wal,

Ditto what the other guys are telling you here. You signature is NEVER an admission of guilt, JUST a promise to appear at the indicated place and time.

There are a lot of officers giving a lot of chicken-shit tickets when a warning would be more in the interests of justice. So when they have to defend their actions in court, all of the sudden their memory becomes a bit cloudy--or they will not be able to articulate enough of a reason for the citation to convince the judge, etc.

Always keep a shit-eating grin on your face and sign the ticket. When the court date arrives, be prepared to make your case before the judge. In Southern Kalifornia, the traffic court judges (or commissioners) are not predisposed to believe the officers. Officers have to articulate the case and justify the citation.

Good luck, sir!

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #6 of 71 Old Apr 26th, 2007, 7:00 am
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This may earn me a raft of crap, but if you are speeding, you are breaking the law. No matter how stupid you may think a speed limit in a particular area is. I do not know the circumstances of WAL's situation, but, if you are/were speeding, then you made a decision to go that fast. Or possibly it was a mistake that you got nailed for.

If you are traveling 5mph over, you are still breaking the speed limit and are subject to a ticket. You have to be willing to take the ticket if you are speeding. That's my opinion on it. I have a cousin that I argued with over this subject at length. He thought that motorcycles, or specifically HE, should not have to adhere to speed laws. And it made prefect sense to him.

I regularly exceed the posted speed limit, usually within 10%. Usually. And I know that I am subject to being ticketed. And accept that risk.

My last ticket I was 55 in a 35. It was dark and an area I thought I knew well. Coming out of a small town. Well, I was 2/10 of a mile from the 55 mph limit when he got me. My bad. I took the ticket, but ended up paying a lawyer to take care of it.

Hope your situation works out. I'm not a lawyer or LEO, but have spent time with LEOS watching and riding along. They are doing a job. Occasionally overzealously, but doing their job just the same.

Randy
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post #7 of 71 Old Apr 26th, 2007, 8:32 am
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I have to agree with Rando. If you are speeding and you get a ticket / performance award or what ever you choose to call it. Put on your big girl panties and deal with it. You chose to break the law, don't complain when you get caught.


Just my opinion and sure to get a load of flack and flames


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post #8 of 71 Old Apr 26th, 2007, 8:33 am
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Good point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jayjacobson
Greetings Wal,

Ditto what the other guys are telling you here. You signature is NEVER an admission of guilt, JUST a promise to appear at the indicated place and time.

There are a lot of officers giving a lot of chicken-shit tickets when a warning would be more in the interests of justice. So when they have to defend their actions in court, all of the sudden their memory becomes a bit cloudy--or they will not be able to articulate enough of a reason for the citation to convince the judge, etc.

Always keep a shit-eating grin on your face and sign the ticket. When the court date arrives, be prepared to make your case before the judge. In Southern Kalifornia, the traffic court judges (or commissioners) are not predisposed to believe the officers. Officers have to articulate the case and justify the citation.

Good luck, sir!
The tickets I go to court on and the ones that gave me the hardest time during the stop I remember better, because I take better notes.
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post #9 of 71 Old Apr 26th, 2007, 8:44 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motorman587
The tickets I go to court on and the ones that gave me the hardest time during the stop I remember better, because I take better notes.
+1

[filler added to lengthen message]

Antony (Tripod)
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post #10 of 71 Old Apr 26th, 2007, 9:17 am
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As the Deputy said, your best bet is to "yes sir, no sir, anything else sir?", all without any sarcasm, belittlement, or harrassment. Pull far off the road, be as cordial and apologetic as possibe, don't lie, and take the ticket/go to jail without any grief to the officer.

This will do several things:

1) It will prevent you from getting the burned out tail lamp ticket, or other ancillary violation.

2) It will make your lawyer's life much easier if/when he has to review the video tape in front of a jury.

3) It will make the LEO write nearly nothing in his notes about the ticket. Many, many tickets have been dismissed because the LEO didn't remember or even show up. If you're a jerk (ie: refuse to sign), bet your ass he'll be there with a stack of documents.


Oh, and in Texas NEVER SUBMIT TO A FIELD SOBRIETY TEST. You probably won't pass anyways.
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post #11 of 71 Old Apr 26th, 2007, 11:32 am
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I think that most speeding tickets are just another tax on the citizens. I'd rather buy a speeding permit up front....the state gets their money and I don't have to worry about being stopped. .

This is the adult equivalent of telling school children to stop running in the halls. I'm sure most cops didn't sign up to be hall monitors .

BTW, I haven't had a ticket in about 20 years so I'm not reckless but 65mph is not reasonable in a lot of cases.

After saying this I should probably upgrade to a Valentine One soon

Have Fun, Be Safe,
Kevin

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post #12 of 71 Old Apr 26th, 2007, 11:57 am
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The better part of valor

As my friend, Deputy5211 has indicated, I'll add some more filler.

On the way back to Colorado from Louisiana on the trip from hell in 1981, just outside of Chillicothe, Texas (west of Witchita (sic) a bit) I was being written up for 65 mph during the great 55 mph national experiment in the back seat of the patrol car. My father-in-law walked over to the Texas highway patrol car in a great huff. Dad-in-law was quite belligerent and to my horror I saw him thump one of the highway patrol cops (did I mention there were 2 of them in the car?) on the shoulder. The cop immediately blew his stack on ordered Dad back to my car and Pop had the unusual wisdom right then to skedaddle. That was one of the 2 religious moments I experienced during that episode. I realized that on the side of the road, pissing off a cop who has a gun, hiked up adrenalin, a club and the ability to make my life a living hell is a very very stupid thing to do.

The other moment of enlightenment? I politely said I disagreed with the speeding citation and asked what my options were. Cop #1 said we could go back to Chillicothe and argue the case before the local J.O.P. and if I lost, I would just pay the ticket. That started to sound pretty good, because I was pulled out of a bunch of Texas cars and here I'm driving a bright red car from Colorado. Then Cop #2 turned around and said, (I still can see it all very clearly) "What he isn't telling you is that it's late on Friday and the J.O.P. might be gone for the weekend or gone fishin' by now. But *you* **will** wait for him to get back in the office". He looked me dead in the eye. In an instant the concept of spending the weekend in the Chillicothe County jail occurred to me and I replied, "Gentlemen, I think the best thing I can do is accept this citation and pay the fine immediately. How do we proceed?" The cop #2 slowly nodded and said, "Probably the best thing you can do. You sign the ticket and we'll follow you down to Post Office. You'll buy a postal money order and the stamp, we'll give you the envelope and you'll mail it while we watch you drop the envelope in the slot". That's exactly what happened and one stood on each side of me in the Post Office as I did exactly that.

How I got money to continue the trip back to Denver is another story.

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post #13 of 71 Old Apr 26th, 2007, 12:21 pm
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Signing speeding tickets

Except for the most serious violations, traffic violations in Colorado are called "infractions" and are more civil than criminal. A person cannot be arrested on an infraction, so there is no going to jail if a person refuses to sign.

In most of these cases, I would write "personally served" in the offender's signature box and never even ask for a signature. As a LEO, I just served a legal process.

Colorado created an incentive for persons to accept guilt and mail in a fine. Most are concerned more about "points against a driving privilege" than money. Mailing in the fine within 20 days automatically reduces points, 3 or 4 points to 1, etc. This cleared out the numbers of persons going to traffic court.

If a person chooses to ignore the whole thing, it won't come up again until that person tries to renew a driver's license in Colorado or in any one of the other states participating in the Non Resident Violator Compact.

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post #14 of 71 Old Apr 26th, 2007, 4:43 pm
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Speeding tickets

I don't pulled over for speed very often.
I try to stay with 10 mph of posted limits but that doesn't always work.
When I have gotten pulled over I have my license, registration, retired military ID out.

As soon as the LEO arrives I keep both hands in sight, hand him my stuff and introduce my self, trying to be friendly inspite of the fact that I know I am facing a ticket. I say something like: "Good afternoon sir"..., I give him my name and introduce myself as USN retired and say that "I'd never get in the way of someone in uniform going about doing their job, even if they are coming after me. So, how can I help?"
This has usually met with some degree of mild annoyance and they give me my military ID back with a look that says " I didn't ask for this, so why give it to me?"
Nobody likes a fund-raiser speed trap and nobody likes getting a ticket no matter how well deserved. However, I choose to speed. And I try to put myself in the shoes of the LEO who pulls me over. I try to sincerely convey my appreciation for what they do; and at the same time accept the consequences of my actions.
I have been given warnings instead of tickets, and I have had 20+mph, go to jail moving violations reduced to nominal fines using this approach.

LEOs are (IMO) for the most part, honest, hardworking, underpaid, underappreciated folks who are trying to make the world safer for us.

I can't imagine refusing to sign a citation, or acting confrontational would have a better outcome than just saying "How can I help you do your job today?"
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post #15 of 71 Old Apr 26th, 2007, 4:56 pm
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I was peeing in a water bottle while doing 85mph on IH10 in west Tejas whilst piloting la trucka. Didn't notice a State Trooper had snuck up behind me till he whooped his sigh-reen. He wanted to know why I was dripping wet after the initial window approach. He was hanging on to the side of the p/u with tears of laughter running down his face. He refused to shake my hand, nor would he take his pen back.



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post #16 of 71 Old Apr 26th, 2007, 5:03 pm
 
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I live in NJ. As most of you are aware our Governor was seriously injured in a crash about two weeks ago. Even though the police initially stated that his state trooper driver was driving with the flow of traffic, it has been disclosed that he was doing 91mph. We like to drive fast on the GSP, but 91mph in rush hour traffic is too fast for even us NJ drivers. My issue with this is that 91mph is par for the course when it comes to our state police. As is tailgating, weaving, and just about any other aggressive driving that would get civilians a ticket or worse. To be clear, I'm talking about how the LEOs drive in non emergency situations. My question to the LEOs on the board is this: How does a Leo ethically justify giving citations or arresting motorist for behavior that is far less dangerous than the typical driving the LEO does everyday?

Nothing against LEOs, just wondering how some can look themselves in the mirror.
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post #17 of 71 Old Apr 26th, 2007, 5:14 pm
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Watch out

Expected reply is "We are trained for it"

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post #18 of 71 Old Apr 26th, 2007, 6:12 pm
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"we are trained for it"

In Illinois you are required to surrender your drivers license, provide an authorized bond card, or go to the police station and pay cash, after which u r given a bond receipt. If u refuse u would be arrested, but any good cop can talk the person down.

BTW this subject always gets the most responses. I probably write 3 speeders a day, I guess I am somewhat numb after 16yrs to the fact that this is such a big deal to the public. If its any consolation it isnt personal to me, I dont see white, black, car or bike, I just see a speed on my radar that is too fast, so I go n do my job.

Now I must go for there fresh donuts, and hot coffee in the air

Tom
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post #19 of 71 Old Apr 26th, 2007, 8:41 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tcotter
I live in NJ. As most of you are aware our Governor was seriously injured in a crash about two weeks ago. Even though the police initially stated that his state trooper driver was driving with the flow of traffic, it has been disclosed that he was doing 91mph. We like to drive fast on the GSP, but 91mph in rush hour traffic is too fast for even us NJ drivers. My issue with this is that 91mph is par for the course when it comes to our state police. As is tailgating, weaving, and just about any other aggressive driving that would get civilians a ticket or worse. To be clear, I'm talking about how the LEOs drive in non emergency situations. My question to the LEOs on the board is this: How does a Leo ethically justify giving citations or arresting motorist for behavior that is far less dangerous than the typical driving the LEO does everyday?

Nothing against LEOs, just wondering how some can look themselves in the mirror.
Not defending LEO reckless driving, but there are time were you do not want to have lights and siren on, ie...... alarm calls, burglary calls etc...........

There are time were a LEO wants to pace a car and has to catch up the violator to get a good pace and again does not want to spook the violator.

Sometimes there are policy the do not alway lights and siren, but the officers knows that the call was waiting and does not want the victim to wait.

I could keep going but then there is no reason for this behavior and after 20 years I have realize that there are to many out there that just complaint about LEO that I take my time to every call. I just drive the speed limit.
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post #20 of 71 Old Apr 26th, 2007, 9:01 pm
 
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Originally Posted by ahpd1992
"we are trained for it"

In Illinois you are required to surrender your drivers license, provide an authorized bond card, or go to the police station and pay cash, after which u r given a bond receipt. If u refuse u would be arrested, but any good cop can talk the person down.

BTW this subject always gets the most responses. I probably write 3 speeders a day, I guess I am somewhat numb after 16yrs to the fact that this is such a big deal to the public. If its any consolation it isnt personal to me, I dont see white, black, car or bike, I just see a speed on my radar that is too fast, so I go n do my job.

Now I must go for there fresh donuts, and hot coffee in the air

Tom
I'm one of those people who has no problem with being pulled over for speeding. I'm guilty and I know it. I make the cop's case for him right there by admitting I was doing it. I usually make a joke about it which puts the officer at ease knowing he's not going to get any flack from me. IF he writes a ticket I usually ask what the process is if any, to get it knocked down to a non moving violation. Fortunately, I don't get tagged offen. Generally speaking I'm a speed limit +7 kind of guy.

My question above to LEOs isn't directed to their training, or the job they have to do. Its directed at their personal integrity. Police Officers take an oath to uphold the law then break the very laws they swear to uphold. Yet they cite civilians for breaking the same laws that they themselves break as a matter of routine. Just wondering how they would explain that to their kids when teaching lessons of honesty and integrity? Its not part of the job and in NJ its not allowed. LEOS are subject to all ofIthe traffic laws unless responding to an emergency.

That said, generally speaking, i have no beef with the state police in our state. They, for the most part, aren't looking to bust balls, and aren't like the jerks in uniform we have all run into. Its just this one thing. How does breaking the law square with upholding it? Inquirering riders on fast bikes want to know.
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post #21 of 71 Old Apr 26th, 2007, 9:18 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grifscoots
I was peeing in a water bottle while doing 85mph on IH10 in west Tejas whilst piloting la trucka...
Grif wins the prize for Most Distracted Driver (carry-over from another thread going on at this time)

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post #22 of 71 Old Apr 26th, 2007, 9:29 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevincook
I think that most speeding tickets are just another tax on the citizens. I'd rather buy a speeding permit up front....the state gets their money and I don't have to worry about being stopped. .

This is the adult equivalent of telling school children to stop running in the halls. I'm sure most cops didn't sign up to be hall monitors .

BTW, I haven't had a ticket in about 20 years so I'm not reckless but 65mph is not reasonable in a lot of cases.

After saying this I should probably upgrade to a Valentine One soon

Have Fun, Be Safe,
Kevin
Most speed limits are designed for the average driver. And remember, the average driver does not know how to drive well. They eat, drink (soda, water, etc), talk on cell phone, read, put on make-up, etc... I would love for the USA to have an Autobahn, but the fact is most drivers in the US would screw it up.

I write about 40 speeding tickets a month. The large majority (about 95%) have no clue I was there. Either they pass me, so that means they are focused on their lane and nothing to their left or right. When I use the LIDAR, they have no idea I'm standing at the side of the road. I don't hide. I park right on the shoulder and stand in plain view. I'm standing within 20-30 feet of them when they pass me.

Yes, some good drivers get tickets for speeding, but most speeders do not pay attention. Alot of these drivers are the same people who turn left, ot right in front of motorcycles and other vehicles. The fact is they just don't pay attention.

I'm sure there are some towns that may use tickets as revenue makers, but most don't.

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post #23 of 71 Old Apr 26th, 2007, 10:09 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grifscoots
I was peeing in a water bottle while doing 85mph on IH10 in west Tejas whilst piloting la trucka. Didn't notice a State Trooper had snuck up behind me till he whooped his sigh-reen. He wanted to know why I was dripping wet after the initial window approach. He was hanging on to the side of the p/u with tears of laughter running down his face. He refused to shake my hand, nor would he take his pen back.
So many jokes one could make about this, so little time!!

I was taught early on to carry extra pens; "Ho Pens" is what one of my training officer called them. You never wrote with them yourself, you never took them back. You have them for folks to use so they would not have to touch your pen.

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post #24 of 71 Old Apr 27th, 2007, 12:37 am
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Every adult in California is responsible for this:

California law as written by the politicians elected by the public in California:

Mandatory Appearance
40302. Whenever any person is arrested for any violation of this code, not declared to be a felony, the arrested person shall be taken without unnecessary delay before a magistrate within the county in which the offense charged is alleged to have been committed and who has jurisdiction of the offense and is nearest or most accessible with reference to the place where the arrest is made in any of the following cases:

(a) When the person arrested fails to present his driver's license or other satisfactory evidence of his identity for examination.

(b) When the person arrested refuses to give his written promise to appear in court.

(c) When the person arrested demands an immediate appearance before a magistrate.

(d) When the person arrested is charged with violating Section 23152.

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post #25 of 71 Old Apr 27th, 2007, 12:51 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikerd400

I'm sure there are some towns that may use tickets as revenue makers, but most don't.
Very true, Mike. In some jurisdictions revenue generation is actual, but not here. The traffic bureau in my department is an absolute money pit. The cost of operation far exceeds income, the state and the county take the lionís share of ticket fines -- and it is not returned to the municipalities.

However, many will continue to hold on to the myth of revenue generation almost like a religious belief. I suppose itís a subtle way of down playing responsibility for their actions.

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post #26 of 71 Old Apr 27th, 2007, 1:40 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motorman587
The tickets I go to court on and the ones that gave me the hardest time during the stop I remember better, because I take better notes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by deputy5211
+1
Agreed Gentlemen! If you really believe that the most appropriate resolution to a violation is through a citation, why would you then not remember said citation?! Wouldn't you take notes or whatever you needed to do so you could remember the events for court six months later?!

Yet, time and time again, I see officers appear in traffic court and assert "no collection!" WTF!!??

Have we hi-jacked this thread yet? LOL.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #27 of 71 Old Apr 27th, 2007, 1:48 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WildernessJeep
......It will make the LEO write nearly nothing in his notes about the ticket. Many, many tickets have been dismissed because the LEO didn't remember or even show up. If you're a jerk (ie: refuse to sign), bet your ass he'll be there with a stack of documents.

Oh, and in Texas NEVER SUBMIT TO A FIELD SOBRIETY TEST. You probably won't pass anyways.
Yes, sir, unfortunately, you are exactly correct! The least "eventful" stop appears to be the ones that we cannot even remember!

As far an FST's, I would not submit to them because they would be used against me for license re-examination by the DMV even if I were DEAD SOBER!

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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Grif wins the prize for Most Distracted Driver (carry-over from another thread going on at this time)
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post #29 of 71 Old Apr 27th, 2007, 4:51 am
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Ditto what Mike said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikerd400
Most speed limits are designed for the average driver. And remember, the average driver does not know how to drive well. They eat, drink (soda, water, etc), talk on cell phone, read, put on make-up, etc... I would love for the USA to have an Autobahn, but the fact is most drivers in the US would screw it up.

I write about 40 speeding tickets a month. The large majority (about 95%) have no clue I was there. Either they pass me, so that means they are focused on their lane and nothing to their left or right. When I use the LIDAR, they have no idea I'm standing at the side of the road. I don't hide. I park right on the shoulder and stand in plain view. I'm standing within 20-30 feet of them when they pass me.

Yes, some good drivers get tickets for speeding, but most speeders do not pay attention. Alot of these drivers are the same people who turn left, ot right in front of motorcycles and other vehicles. The fact is they just don't pay attention.

I'm sure there are some towns that may use tickets as revenue makers, but most don't.
I believe that most officer could careless where the money of the fines go. We issue tickets for the reason to attempt to correct bad driving behaviors. It really comes to light when you are a traffic homicide investigator. What kills most people in the fatals that I have worked and right off the top of my head is speed. I know that there is a lot of time another factor included as in red light running, running off the road, drunk driving, but most of the time if the guy/gal was not hauling a$$, wearing a seatbelt/helmet, they would not of been killed.


PS. I like the ones that go to court, call the officer a liar, clocked the wrong car, was going the speed limit etc......... The hearing officer will ask, "How fast where you going?" "I do not remember, but I wasn't speeding blah, blah......" I chuckle, at those.
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post #30 of 71 Old Apr 27th, 2007, 7:14 am
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Another example of what NOT to do: when I got my last ticket, I was pretty perturbed by it. Especially since another car was being stopped from the same trap. anyway, the officer was talking as he wrote out the ticket. Every time he would speak, he would stop writing. I told him, "If you can't talk and write at the same time, don't talk". HE stopped talking and kept writing. I would not normally be such an ass, but I really felt I was trapped and he struck an attitude right away, also.

He tried to tell me there was a school zone. It was 9 pm for crying out loud, and the school zone was on a road perpendicular to the US highway I was on at the time. With an otherwise clean record I was able to get a lawyer to weasel my way out of it for a couple hundred bucks.

Which brings me to this: lawyers. The guy never even had to do anything but talk to the DA in passing basically. He said he told him of my clean record, circumstances (trying to get family home from a funeral visit 35 miles away), etc. I appreciate him saving me on insurance, but a couple hundred bucks to talk in the hallway? Geez.


Randy
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post #31 of 71 Old Apr 27th, 2007, 9:23 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rando
Which brings me to this: lawyers. The guy never even had to do anything but talk to the DA in passing basically. He said he told him of my clean record, circumstances (trying to get family home from a funeral visit 35 miles away), etc. I appreciate him saving me on insurance, but a couple hundred bucks to talk in the hallway? Geez.
They call that "Value Billing." They bill you for the value the service brings to you, not for the time it took them to do it. He may have only talked in the hall to the ADA, but if Joe the Rag Man talked to the ADA and did it for $20, that ticket would have probably stood.

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post #32 of 71 Old Apr 27th, 2007, 11:44 am
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Wink Police ethics

Having taught the subject for years, a few comments:

The most visible of public servants is the cop. If he or she is not willing to set an example, who else in society should be looked to for that example? (Ted Kennedy?) Failure to provide an example in everyday, non-emergency driving can result in a citation or IA (Internal Affairs Investigation). I have seen "punishment" range from apologies, to transfers to non-driving duties, to termination.

In patrolling, the LEO is expected to follow all the rules but exceptions are legally allowed in many states....like trying to catch up to a suspected violator.

At 2 in the morning, without red light or siren, I have put it into warp drive to travel across a county to cover an officer, at little or no risk of causing an accident, but also subject to receiving a citation or IA. I would rather take my legal and or administrative lumps than have to apologize to an officer's widow or widower. Falls under "choice of evils", and I think most readers of this site would understand that.

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post #33 of 71 Old Apr 28th, 2007, 3:28 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikerd400
.....I would love for the USA to have an Autobahn, but the fact is most drivers in the US would screw it up.

I write about 40 speeding tickets a month. The large majority (about 95%) have no clue I was there. Either they pass me, so that means they are focused on their lane and nothing to their left or right. When I use the LIDAR, they have no idea I'm standing at the side of the road. I don't hide. I park right on the shoulder and stand in plain view. I'm standing within 20-30 feet of them when they pass me.

Yes, some good drivers get tickets for speeding, but most speeders do not pay attention. Alot of these drivers are the same people who turn left, ot right in front of motorcycles and other vehicles. The fact is they just don't pay attention.
Why is it that the more IN PLAIN SIGHT we are, the more we're INVISIBLE?! Over the last 17 years, I've noticed that, in general, people's driving has gotten steadily worse. I think cell phones and people driving w/o a license/suspended are two major causes.

Yes, can you see a USA AB with people talking on their phones at 120+ MPH?! Sccaaaarrrrrrrryyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #34 of 71 Old Apr 28th, 2007, 9:03 am
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Remebering ciations

Quote:
Originally Posted by jayjacobson
Agreed Gentlemen! If you really believe that the most appropriate resolution to a violation is through a citation, why would you then not remember said citation?! Wouldn't you take notes or whatever you needed to do so you could remember the events for court six months later?!

Yet, time and time again, I see officers appear in traffic court and assert "no collection!" WTF!!??

Have we hi-jacked this thread yet? LOL.

Think about it. Most traffic units mission is to issue citations. Yes, I know that a warning or making money, blah, blah, blah. Just think that your mission is to issue tickets 12 months in the year. Say you write 150 tickets a year, to keep it simple. That is is..................1800. Right??? Take half 850 stops that you should remember. Now take out a receipt, from where "you" went shopping, because I sure you have not been to a store 1800 times in a year. Take the receipt and do you remember the clerk. Remember the clerk who gave you that receipt. Remember what you were doing.

Taking notes takes too long to write down. Remember your mission to issue citations. In our unit it is bragging rights on who can issue the most tickets. No I am not one of them. Remember giving the officer a hard time? Those are the notes that I take, so I can tell the hearing officer what an a$$ the driver was.

Most testimony, goes like this. My name is officer so and so. I have been a police officer for 20 years and current assigned in the motor unit. On so and so day I was running laser/radar on so and so road. I observed a vehicle coming at me at a high rate of speed and estimated that speed to be so and so. I put the laser on the vehicle and got a so and so reading. The laser locked the speed at so and so feet. I went after the vehicle and stopped the vehicle. I Id the driver with a so and so license and issue him/her a speeding ticket for going so and so in a so and so zone. This ticket was issue in the great state of Florida, so and so county in the city limits of so and so. I a certified laser/radar instructor, have my log book, checked the laser before and after my shift.
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post #35 of 71 Old Apr 28th, 2007, 9:42 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jayjacobson
Why is it that the more IN PLAIN SIGHT we are, the more we're INVISIBLE?! Over the last 17 years, I've noticed that, in general, people's driving has gotten steadily worse. I think cell phones and people driving w/o a license/suspended are two major causes.

Yes, can you see a USA AB with people talking on their phones at 120+ MPH?! Sccaaaarrrrrrrryyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!
I just can picture soccer moms racing their mini-vans and SUVs at 125 while blabbing on the cell... some actually singing "Born to be wiiiiild...!"
I think I'll just change profession and become a MORTICIAN: beaucoup bucks!!!

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For her I climbed the highest mountain!
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post #36 of 71 Old Apr 28th, 2007, 12:43 pm
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There are several things in life that you will be asked to do that your are not required by law to do, the least of which is signing a legal document without legal counsel.
That being said, there are two certainties:
1. Even though you don't have to, some a hole is going to tell you that you do.
2. There are a lot of a holes. Let me say is slower this time a h o l e s.

So what do I do?
I sign.....
M-I-C-K-E-Y M-O-U-S-E
Dumb arses have never even noticed.......
Oh wait, here come the posts about forging old Mic's signature

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post #37 of 71 Old Apr 28th, 2007, 1:57 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atrovarious
There are several things in life that you will be asked to do that your are not required by law to do, the least of which is signing a legal document without legal counsel.
That being said, there are two certainties:
1. Even though you don't have to, some a hole is going to tell you that you do.
2. There are a lot of a holes. Let me say is slower this time a h o l e s.

So what do I do?
I sign.....
M-I-C-K-E-Y M-O-U-S-E
Dumb arses have never even noticed.......
Oh wait, here come the posts about forging old Mic's signature
I took a guy to jail for signing "Mickey Mouse."

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post #38 of 71 Old Apr 28th, 2007, 1:57 pm
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by atrovarious
There are several things in life that you will be asked to do that your are not required by law to do, the least of which is signing a legal document without legal counsel.
That being said, there are two certainties:
1. Even though you don't have to, some a hole is going to tell you that you do.
2. There are a lot of a holes. Let me say is slower this time a h o l e s.

So what do I do?
I sign.....
M-I-C-K-E-Y M-O-U-S-E
Dumb arses have never even noticed.......
Oh wait, here come the posts about forging old Mic's signature
Of course if you are discovered you could end up in jail and become someone's Minnie Mouse!

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For her I climbed the highest mountain!
For her I swam across the deepest ocean!
For her I walked through the largest desert!
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post #39 of 71 Old Apr 28th, 2007, 2:04 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikerd400
I took a guy to jail for signing "Mickey Mouse."
Why am I not surprised. What a hideous crime.

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post #40 of 71 Old Apr 28th, 2007, 2:18 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zippy_gg
Of course if you are discovered you could end up in jail and become someone's Minnie Mouse!
I that you bubba?
Nice one zip.
Chief Karlin: What's your name?
Fletch: Fletch.
Chief Karlin: What's your full name?
Fletch: Fletch F. Fletch.
Chief Karlin: What do you do for a living, Mr. Fletch?
Fletch: I'm a shepherd.
Chief Karlin: Why are you doing this, Mr. Fletch?
Fletch: I like men. I like to be manhandled. I like you.
Fletch: Can't keep me here, chief.
Chief Karlin: Maybe I'm not going to keep you in here. Maybe I'm going to blow your brains out.
Fletch: Well, now, I'm no lawyer, but I do believe that's a violation of my rights.
Fletch: Aren't you gonna read me my rights?
Cop: You have the right to remain silent. You have the right to have your face kicked in by me. You have the right to have your balls stomped on by him.
Fletch: I think I'll waive my rights. http://www.moviesoundscentral.com/so...tch/rights.wav
So what are you in for?
Molesting a dead horse.
Well, nothing wrong with that, me I'm trying to cut back. So you gotta name?
Bend Over
Ben, nice to meet you.

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post #41 of 71 Old Apr 28th, 2007, 2:43 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WildernessJeep
Oh, and in Texas NEVER SUBMIT TO A FIELD SOBRIETY TEST. You probably won't pass anyways.

Why is this?
In my home state if you refuse you lose your license on the spot. By having a orerator's permit you automatically consent to a FST whenever requested so not recommended to refuse one here in MI.
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post #42 of 71 Old Apr 28th, 2007, 4:39 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick-L

Why is this?
In my home state if you refuse you lose your license on the spot. By having a orerator's permit you automatically consent to a FST whenever requested so not recommended to refuse one here in MI.
I would second this only in that I do the same. I don't blow or give blood either.
The reason is that you are giving "them" evidence to convict. You can fight the stop in itself alot easier without incriminating yourself and eventually get your license back. Even if you fail to get out of the suspension, a suspension is not nearly as damaging as DUI. Lawyer after lawyer will tell you the same, however Leo's will tell you the opposite. Imagine that and take it for what it's worth. They aren't on this earth to keep you out of jail, to the contrary, and lawyers are.
I know several people who have been arrested on suspicion several times and they have all never been convicted. Most cases were dismissed as well. I only know of one suspension out of countless that have held up under scutiny.
I have been given a ride home once, so I'll go on record as having said that not all cops are a holes. If you'd like to meet him I'll let you know when I remember his name. Truth be told, I was given a ride home because there was an empty container found in the vehicle, not because I was drunk. An employee had left it there. He didn't push it because he knew who I was and I happened to have a homicide detective in the passenger seat. Funny thing is, I hadn't been drinking and the cop still swore up and down "that the eyes don't lie". Well evidently cops don't know the difference so a subjective test is never a good idea.

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post #43 of 71 Old Apr 28th, 2007, 5:26 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikerd400
Most speed limits are designed for the average driver. And remember, the average driver does not know how to drive well. They eat, drink (soda, water, etc), talk on cell phone, read, put on make-up, etc... I would love for the USA to have an Autobahn, but the fact is most drivers in the US would screw it up.

I write about 40 speeding tickets a month. The large majority (about 95%) have no clue I was there. Either they pass me, so that means they are focused on their lane and nothing to their left or right. When I use the LIDAR, they have no idea I'm standing at the side of the road. I don't hide. I park right on the shoulder and stand in plain view. I'm standing within 20-30 feet of them when they pass me.

Yes, some good drivers get tickets for speeding, but most speeders do not pay attention. Alot of these drivers are the same people who turn left, ot right in front of motorcycles and other vehicles. The fact is they just don't pay attention.

I'm sure there are some towns that may use tickets as revenue makers, but most don't.


LEOs work their computers, radios, and eat, I've seen it. I have known many officers, most of which couldn't and didn't drive all that well marginally better than average. I was at a stop light last winter when an officer playing with his computer ran a red light and hit someone. Last week and officer on his radio changed lanes while passing me without looking and almost hit me on my motorcycle, and I was doing exactly the speed limit.

Plus it is the law that an officer is not suppose to break the law in his attempt to enforce regulations. So unless you have seen someone speed and are in pursuit you are in violation. No one seems to do anything about that. Also down here is it almost 100% that is an officer gets stopped in his personal vehicle and flashes his badge he get a "professional courtesy warning" no matter how fast he was going.

It is also against state policy for an officer to get into a high speed pursuit for a traffic violation or any non-felony, but it happens all the time and nothing is ever done about it. And when ever it is questioned the reply is running from the police is a felony so the officer was justified. Talk about circular logic, with the ends justifying the means.

IMHO defenders of the public trust should be held to a higher standard an suffer stiffer penalties for infractions, not lesser.
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post #44 of 71 Old Apr 28th, 2007, 6:52 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hig4s
LEOs work their computers, radios, and eat, I've seen it. I have known many officers, most of which couldn't and didn't drive all that well marginally better than average. I was at a stop light last winter when an officer playing with his computer ran a red light and hit someone. Last week and officer on his radio changed lanes while passing me without looking and almost hit me on my motorcycle, and I was doing exactly the speed limit.

Plus it is the law that an officer is not suppose to break the law in his attempt to enforce regulations. So unless you have seen someone speed and are in pursuit you are in violation. No one seems to do anything about that. Also down here is it almost 100% that is an officer gets stopped in his personal vehicle and flashes his badge he get a "professional courtesy warning" no matter how fast he was going.

It is also against state policy for an officer to get into a high speed pursuit for a traffic violation or any non-felony, but it happens all the time and nothing is ever done about it. And when ever it is questioned the reply is running from the police is a felony so the officer was justified. Talk about circular logic, with the ends justifying the means.

IMHO defenders of the public trust should be held to a higher standard an suffer stiffer penalties for infractions, not lesser.
Yep, kind of like you would expect your doctor to not smell of tobacco if he's going to tell you to not smoke. Makes perfect sense.
But seldom do common sense and law enforcement have anything to do with one another. I hang out at a bar where cops don't leave until they are wasted drunk, as they stagger to their car they typicaly wave to the cops in the parking lot who are waiting to bust other patrons. "Don't bust me I'm one of you."
Total BS.

Ghaison (Jason)
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2004 K1200LT FOR SALE!!!
Bluefield, VA
Sometimes you can get so fixated on the fact that you are right that you lose sight of the reality that it doesn't matter.
-some guy named Ghaison circa 2002


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post #45 of 71 Old Apr 28th, 2007, 7:24 pm
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Wow

Boy, are we pulling stuff out of our a$$. One time at band camp.............
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post #46 of 71 Old Apr 28th, 2007, 8:27 pm
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I always find it interesting when were all grouped together and labeled a holes. The same people sure sings a different tune when they need us.

A man has to know his limitations....

2009 K1300 GT - Royal Blue Metallic
2006 K1200 LT - Storm Gray Metalic



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post #47 of 71 Old Apr 28th, 2007, 8:50 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jayjacobson
Agreed Gentlemen! If you really believe that the most appropriate resolution to a violation is through a citation, why would you then not remember said citation?! Wouldn't you take notes or whatever you needed to do so you could remember the events for court six months later?!

Yet, time and time again, I see officers appear in traffic court and assert "no collection!" WTF!!??

Have we hi-jacked this thread yet? LOL.
Let me try this last sentence again:

Yet, time and time again, I see officers appear in traffic court and assert "no recollection!" WTF!!??

Sometimes, at 3am, I have no recollection of spelling, however!

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #48 of 71 Old Apr 28th, 2007, 8:59 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atrovarious
......I hadn't been drinking and the cop still swore up and down "that the eyes don't lie".......
Jason, clarify please: Are you saying that your blood shot eyes had the officer convinced that you had been drinking?

Working graveyards for 17 years, I would be going to jail at about 3am every night, then!

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #49 of 71 Old Apr 28th, 2007, 9:56 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atrovarious
There are several things in life that you will be asked to do that your are not required by law to do, the least of which is signing a legal document without legal counsel.
That being said, there are two certainties:
1. Even though you don't have to, some a hole is going to tell you that you do.
2. There are a lot of a holes. Let me say is slower this time a h o l e s.

So what do I do?
I sign.....
M-I-C-K-E-Y M-O-U-S-E
Dumb arses have never even noticed.......
Oh wait, here come the posts about forging old Mic's signature
So. . . let me get this right. You knowingly break the law, the person who catches you doing so is an a-hole, and you aren't responsible enough to give a meaningful promise to deal with it later and try to scam again my signing Mickey Mouse. Oh, wait, there's more, you are giving "legal advice" on what should and should not be done?

I see.

I see.

Antony (Tripod)
Dallas' Northern Suburbs
-----------------------------------------------

If you want to be happy for a day, drink.
If you want to be happy for a year, marry.
If you want to be happy for a lifetime, ride a motorcycle.

-----------------------------------------------


'05 K1200LT - Dark Graphite - RIP 04 OCT 2015
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'99 Road King Classic - Custom Blue/Silver & Chrome - "My Baby" Gone but forever in my heart!

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post #50 of 71 Old Apr 28th, 2007, 10:51 pm
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I think it's time to let this thread fade away........
If you want to answer the original question great, otherwise leave it alone. Lets not get personal here and absolutely no personnel attacks.

Thanks

John & Cathy
Northern CA
01 K1200LTC Basalt - Moose


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