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post #1 of 45 Old Feb 17th, 2007, 1:24 am Thread Starter
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Question Helmets as standard in bike purchase?

How do you folks feel bout this safety proposal?

DOT 19-07
Friday, February 16, 2007
Contact: Sarah Echols
Tel.: (202) 366-4570

Nation's Top Transportation Official Urges Manufacturers to Provide Free or Discounted DOT Certified Helmets or Driver Safety Training with the Purchase of Every New Motorcycle

Saying “the time has come to make the helmet standard safety equipment,” U.S. Secretary of Transportation Mary E. Peters today called on manufacturers to provide free or heavily discounted DOT certified helmets or driver safety training with the purchase of every new motorcycle sold in the United States.

“Helmets and proper training are just as important as brakes or headlights when it comes to the well-being of motorcyclists,” Secretary Peters said. ”We shouldn't be letting any customer take a bike out of the store without a helmet as part of the package. Safety shouldn't have to be an option when purchasing a motorcycle.”

Secretary Peters said only 58 percent of riders wear helmets today, which is down 13 percent from just four years ago. She added that manufacturers could help reverse the trend by getting helmets into riders’ hands and training them how to ride safely, noting that 700 motorcyclists would survive crashes every year if they wore helmets.

During remarks to the Motorcycle Industry Council in Indianapolis, the Secretary praised those manufacturers already providing free training for riders. However, she said she was asking for help from manufacturers because while motorcycles account for only two percent of the vehicles on the road, they are involved in over 10 percent of all crashes. She added that motorcycle fatalities have more than doubled in 10 years and now account for over 4,500 highway deaths and 78,000 injuries each year. Even worse, the crash rate among motorcyclists in the 50 plus age group has increased by over 400 percent, she said.

The Secretary noted that the helmet she was wearing during her 2005 motorcycle crash likely prevented severe head injury. “I know from first-hand experience how effective helmets can be,” she said.

Secretary Peters also said the Department of Transportation was “attacking” the challenge of motorcycle safety on several fronts. Last September, the Department awarded over $6 million in safety grants to states to support motorcycle safety. In addition, the Federal Highway Administration has established a Motorcycle Advisory Council to focus on making roads safer for motorcyclists and will continue work begun by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration on a Motorcycle Crash Causation Study to identify why motorcycle crashes occur and find ways to reduce the fatality and injury rates.
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post #2 of 45 Old Feb 17th, 2007, 1:35 am
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I'm sure there will be detractors but I think it is a good idea on the helmets. But for the safety course, I think it should be each state's policy that in order to get a license you must attend and pass a motorcycle safety course run by the state's DMV. They should be allowed to charge a nominal fee (say $200-$300) for the course to pay for upkeep on the bikes used.
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post #3 of 45 Old Feb 17th, 2007, 2:27 am
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Helmets as standard in bike purchase?

I still think that you should have to have a motorcycle endorsement to BUY a motorcycle (aside from the fact that I wouldn't buy a bike that I couldn't test ride first).

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post #4 of 45 Old Feb 17th, 2007, 3:00 am
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For us Europeans this whole helmet issue is very difficult to comprehend. In most countries it is mandatory to wear one just as it is mandatory to wear seat belts in a car. If you get caught without a helmet you will get a ticket worth 150 - 400 USD.
So, people rather spend their money on a proper helmet (and wear it) than pay the equivalent to the state.

Of course this is somewhat against the famous principle of "freedom of individual". Since there are som many bull headed people who just do not understand that it is the money from the taxpayers and insurance companies (read: "the clients of the insurance companies") they are wasting when being hospitalized for their own stupidity why not let the wiser decide for these.

Or has somebody found a spare parts shop for skulls?

Just wondering...

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post #5 of 45 Old Feb 17th, 2007, 8:08 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patrick2000
Nation's Top Transportation Official Urges Manufacturers to Provide Free or Discounted DOT Certified Helmets or Driver Safety Training with the Purchase of Every New Motorcycle
Nothing is free. The government needs to stay out of my life and deciding what makes me "safe".



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post #6 of 45 Old Feb 17th, 2007, 8:13 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patrick2000
How do you folks feel bout this safety proposal?

DOT 19-07
Friday, February 16, 2007
Contact: Sarah Echols
Tel.: (202) 366-4570

Nation's Top Transportation Official Urges Manufacturers to Provide Free or Discounted DOT Certified Helmets or Driver Safety Training with the Purchase of Every New Motorcycle

Saying “the time has come to make the helmet standard safety equipment,”
the way to become rich is to have something become a law that you provide be it service or product

that is all this is about period - MONEY -

there are way too many people alive today that started riding way before there was any MC license requirement or any MC testing requirement here is no proof anything will help save lives, In fact it is being argued right now that the MSF courses are not good enough because there are so many ADULT deaths within 6 month;s of taking that BRC, and MSF has turned it into merely a money making machine (which is pretty acurate IMHO)

MSF is already suing anyone that gives a training course that in any way resembles thier courses MSF wants this new requirment something BAD!

Make it a law and/or a requirment and the courses and training will suffer.

Force MoCo's to provide a DOT helmet is nothing but a pure money making machine for the helemt manufactures I wonder who is behind this "requirement" this time (like Bell was years ago)

it is BS pure and simple

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post #7 of 45 Old Feb 17th, 2007, 8:36 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pozo_izquierdo
For us Europeans this whole helmet issue is very difficult to comprehend. In most countries it is mandatory to wear one just as it is mandatory to wear seat belts in a car. If you get caught without a helmet you will get a ticket worth 150 - 400 USD.
So, people rather spend their money on a proper helmet (and wear it) than pay the equivalent to the state.

Of course this is somewhat against the famous principle of "freedom of individual". Since there are som many bull headed people who just do not understand that it is the money from the taxpayers and insurance companies (read: "the clients of the insurance companies") they are wasting when being hospitalized for their own stupidity why not let the wiser decide for these.
if it were only that simple i would agree, thing is no one really cares it is just some big money making machine here in the US hiding behind a new "requirment"

Quote:
Or has somebody found a spare parts shop for skulls?

Just wondering...
well actually yes in a way, if yyour still alive they can pretty much fix most body parts these days (i have plenty of titanium in me now)


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post #8 of 45 Old Feb 17th, 2007, 9:05 am
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I am waiting for the official report (like the Hurt report) that the feds are doing or said they were going to do about motor cycle accidents before I start pointing fingers, but left turners will get my vote.

DON
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post #9 of 45 Old Feb 17th, 2007, 9:21 am
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Well here in Australia it is, and basically always has been, mandatory to wear a helmet when riding a motorbike. There just isn't a question about it, and nobody seems to mind.
Just the same with seatbelts. No-one is alowed to ride in a car without one on. Children must be buckled in as well.
That's the law, and it just makes sense.

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post #10 of 45 Old Feb 17th, 2007, 9:49 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grifscoots
Nothing is free. The government needs to stay out of my life and deciding what makes me "safe".

So Grif...could we get you to maybe take a stand on this?

Remember: "I'm from the Government and I'm here to help you"

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post #11 of 45 Old Feb 17th, 2007, 10:00 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmgs
i

well actually yes in a way, if yyour still alive they can pretty much fix most body parts these days (i have plenty of titanium in me now)

Tom
Yeah, we have a saying over here that goes something like this in English: " one millimeter in your head means one meter in your arm (hand)"
I doubt that titanium works well as brain cell replacement although commonly used in other parts of the body...

Would work well for people with solid bone heads, though...

Regards

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post #12 of 45 Old Feb 17th, 2007, 11:57 am
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Helmets as standard in bike purchase?

The MSF BRC is a good course, but you need to keep practicing! Also, what you do in the BRC also done on a 250cc bike that hasn't ever been out of second gear. Does that really prepare you for the much heavier and more powerful bike that you go and buy after you get your endorsement?

People have already debated the "tiered" licesnsing, and it does make sense. I know when my brother had completed the BRC for his endorsement, he went shopping for a bike. He wanted a GSXR-1000 and the salesman was actually responsible enought to tell him "I'm not even going to talk to you about that bike, it's WAY too much bike for a beginner."

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post #13 of 45 Old Feb 17th, 2007, 2:41 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewuff
So Grif...could we get you to maybe take a stand on this?

Remember: "I'm from the Government and I'm here to help you"
No, I type sitting down I am so sick of professional politician's that I could.... well, be sick.

I don't know how many folk's have heard of what's going on in New Braunfels. The Politician's living on the Comal River are tired of the the kid's who toob the river raising hell and partying. They have passed an ordinance making it illegal to have anything but a 6 pack cooler, contrary to what the populace and business want. So many resident's have become so incensed that a recall petition on a city council member is now being enacted.



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post #14 of 45 Old Feb 18th, 2007, 11:37 pm
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I'm all for training and wouldn't ride without a helmet. My concern would be if this became mandatory. I might appreciate getting a helmet as part of the package if I didn't have one but since I already have several high end helmets which are replaced when age and wear demand I don't expect to ever need a helmet at the time of a new bike purchase unless it lined up with my existing replacement schedule. To be forced to buy a helmet I don't need or lose other new bike purchase discounts because the manufacturer had to provide a helmet would seriously piss me off. Not to mention, who picks the included helmet. Would I get a choice or find myself the owner of a cheap DOT helmet I wouldn't trust?
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post #15 of 45 Old Feb 19th, 2007, 12:18 am
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Originally Posted by mjordans2000
I'm all for training and wouldn't ride without a helmet. My concern would be if this became mandatory. I might appreciate getting a helmet as part of the package if I didn't have one but since I already have several high end helmets which are replaced when age and wear demand I don't expect to ever need a helmet at the time of a new bike purchase unless it lined up with my existing replacement schedule. To be forced to buy a helmet I don't need or lose other new bike purchase discounts because the manufacturer had to provide a helmet would seriously piss me off. Not to mention, who picks the included helmet. Would I get a choice or find myself the owner of a cheap DOT helmet I wouldn't trust?
Really, what sense makes it to force companies to give away helmets with bikes / training courses if it is not mandatory to WEAR one?

Still confused but on a higher level...

Ari "the Farkle-Freak-Finn" Ignatius

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post #16 of 45 Old Feb 19th, 2007, 2:35 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patrick2000
How do you folks feel bout this safety proposal?

DOT 19-07
Friday, February 16, 2007
Contact: Sarah Echols
Tel.: (202) 366-4570

Nation's Top Transportation Official Urges Manufacturers to Provide Free or Discounted DOT Certified Helmets or Driver Safety Training with the Purchase of Every New Motorcycle

Saying “the time has come to make the helmet standard safety equipment,” U.S. Secretary of Transportation Mary E. Peters today called on manufacturers to provide free or heavily discounted DOT certified helmets or driver safety training with the purchase of every new motorcycle sold in the United States.
What would we do without Ms. Peters looking out for us?! I don't know about you, but I sure feel a lot safer knowing she's on the job.

Nothing like some worthless hack, humping a desk a thousand miles away, telling you how to run your life!......

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #17 of 45 Old Feb 19th, 2007, 6:44 am
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I agree with Griff:

Quote:
Originally Posted by grifscoots
Nothing is free. The government needs to stay out of my life and deciding what makes me "safe".
However, if people want to choose to ride without a helmet, then they should pay for it. I think doubling their insurance rate would be fair! It might work something like this. In Ohio a vehicle owner must sign a paper saying that they understand that it is illegal to drive uninsured. Another line could be added where the owner of a motorcycle promises to wear a helmet. If the person refuses to sign it (their prerogative) then the state notifies their insurance company that they need to be charged double. Of course there are those who would sign and still not wear a helmet. For them, if they get caught in a routine check then the court could order them to pay there insurance company retroactive back to the time they insured the motorcycle in question.

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post #18 of 45 Old Feb 19th, 2007, 7:12 am
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I don't think the helmet would really be free. Nothing is free. It would just add to the price of the bike. I would rather pick my own helmet than to have to accept whatever a dealership deemed I should have. OR it would probably be like an "option" if you wanted to upgrade from the "freebie". What about the states that don't require a helmet? Would their dealers have to give ya one? What about used purchases? Nahhhh, I don;t think this is all that good an idea, really.

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post #19 of 45 Old Feb 19th, 2007, 8:54 am
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It is not the job of the Goobermint to ensure my safety.
They can't even do the job they are hired for , yet they keep sticking their noses elsewhere.
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post #20 of 45 Old Feb 19th, 2007, 9:59 am
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If it was not safer to ride without a helmet all racers would ride without them. Jeez, I'd pay money to be able to lose 3 lbs. of bike weight.
Bikers don't wear helmets.
Motorcyclists do.

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post #21 of 45 Old Feb 19th, 2007, 12:31 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by info
If it was not safer to ride without a helmet all racers would ride without them. Jeez, I'd pay money to be able to lose 3 lbs. of bike weight.
Bikers don't wear helmets.
Motorcyclists do.
AWW! Don't go ruining the fun by bringing logic into the discussion. We had all the NIMBY-ites and chronic contrarians popping off their armchair opinions. We're all for personal responsibility. But we wouldn't have any problem suing the manufacturer of a vehicle if the state mandated safety equipment included in the purchase wasn't 100% effective in the particular collision we were involved in.

Besides, we all know that racers are just entertainers. They EXPECT to crash. That's the only reason people go to watch races: there might be a crash. But Joe cruizer, ridin' down to the saloon knows he ain't gonna crash and will fight the gubm't to the bitter end for ever suggesting that he might.

I always keep my pants zipped. But I'll be damned if the government is going to tell me that walking around with my pecker hangin' out is indecent exposure. It's my personal choice. It isn't hurting any one! Besides, Half the population's got one and you can drive by any horse ranch and see bigger. Just one more thing the nanny-state is trying to control.

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post #22 of 45 Old Feb 19th, 2007, 1:11 pm
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Mary needs to shut up

Quote:
Originally Posted by patrick2000
How do you folks feel bout this safety proposal?

DOT 19-07
Friday, February 16, 2007
Contact: Sarah Echols
Tel.: (202) 366-4570

Nation's Top Transportation Official Urges Manufacturers to Provide Free or Discounted DOT Certified Helmets or Driver Safety Training with the Purchase of Every New Motorcycle

Saying “the time has come to make the helmet standard safety equipment,” U.S. Secretary of Transportation Mary E. Peters today called on manufacturers to provide free or heavily discounted DOT certified helmets or driver safety training with the purchase of every new motorcycle sold in the United States.

“Helmets and proper training are just as important as brakes or headlights when it comes to the well-being of motorcyclists,” Secretary Peters said. ”We shouldn't be letting any customer take a bike out of the store without a helmet as part of the package. Safety shouldn't have to be an option when purchasing a motorcycle.”

Secretary Peters said only 58 percent of riders wear helmets today, which is down 13 percent from just four years ago. She added that manufacturers could help reverse the trend by getting helmets into riders’ hands and training them how to ride safely, noting that 700 motorcyclists would survive crashes every year if they wore helmets.

During remarks to the Motorcycle Industry Council in Indianapolis, the Secretary praised those manufacturers already providing free training for riders. However, she said she was asking for help from manufacturers because while motorcycles account for only two percent of the vehicles on the road, they are involved in over 10 percent of all crashes. She added that motorcycle fatalities have more than doubled in 10 years and now account for over 4,500 highway deaths and 78,000 injuries each year. Even worse, the crash rate among motorcyclists in the 50 plus age group has increased by over 400 percent, she said.

The Secretary noted that the helmet she was wearing during her 2005 motorcycle crash likely prevented severe head injury. “I know from first-hand experience how effective helmets can be,” she said.

Secretary Peters also said the Department of Transportation was “attacking” the challenge of motorcycle safety on several fronts. Last September, the Department awarded over $6 million in safety grants to states to support motorcycle safety. In addition, the Federal Highway Administration has established a Motorcycle Advisory Council to focus on making roads safer for motorcyclists and will continue work begun by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration on a Motorcycle Crash Causation Study to identify why motorcycle crashes occur and find ways to reduce the fatality and injury rates.
Mary needs to shut up. She could save more lives helping teens avoid crashing cages. Typical government crap. I've got an idea. Let's give all new bike buyers a condom, a cell phone, and Mary's number. They can call Mary and see if she wants to go for a ride..

Rob Nelson

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More than 132,000 (recently corrected higher) motorcycle riders have died in traffic crashes since the enactment of the Highway Safety Act of 1966 and The National Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act of 1966. Be careful out there.
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post #23 of 45 Old Feb 19th, 2007, 1:19 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patrick2000
How do you folks feel bout this safety proposal?

.
I think Madame Secretary should be ashamed of herself and of the staffer(s) who sold her this idea.

I always wear a helmet and have taken the MSF course and I think everyone should. However, helmets are not one size (read that type) fits all. Furthermore, I think everyone who can afford a motorcycle can afford a helmet. This program would increase the cost of a bike by at least the cost of the helmet and I am ashamed of a so-called republican who has such a poor grasp of basic economics.

As regards the 'training course', what about the guy who trades bikes every year or buys more than one bike within a relatively short period? Should he have to pay more for the bikes to cover the cost of redundant training?
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post #24 of 45 Old Feb 19th, 2007, 2:14 pm
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I am ashamed of a so-called republican who has such a poor grasp of basic economics.

Why would you be surprised by this? She is just following the precedent set by her peers.

There is no need to apply logic, as it can always be justified after the fact.
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post #25 of 45 Old Feb 19th, 2007, 3:43 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by info
If it was not safer to ride without a helmet all racers would ride without them. Jeez, I'd pay money to be able to lose 3 lbs. of bike weight.
Bikers don't wear helmets.
Motorcyclists do.
I'm a motorcyclist (now) and I wear a helmet if and when I choose.
Racing and riding are 2 totally differant things. When you race you are pushing yourself and the machine right to the limit of it's ability. (If your not get off and let my little sister so you how it's done)
When your riding a motorcycle on the street at anything close to the speed limits they post, you should be well with in your skill levels.
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post #26 of 45 Old Feb 19th, 2007, 7:45 pm
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Helmets

Bottom Line!!

there are 2 types of motorcycle riders
#1 ,riders that have been down
#2 ,riders that are going down

no matter of "riders right to choose" "freedom" or what ever

end of discussion
thx dave
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post #27 of 45 Old Feb 20th, 2007, 7:20 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tkramer
Besides, Half the population's got one and you can drive by any horse ranch and see bigger.

Speak for yourself.... :-)


Seriously, giving someone a helmet doesn't mean they will wear it. I haven't bought a bike yet where the dealer didn't offer me X% off on any accessories (farkles, helmets, jackets, etc) in the shop at the time of purchase.

I do like the idea of tiered licenses. I know of several people that borrowed a Honda Rebel 250 to take the MC test (which here in Massachusetts is a complete joke), got their endorsement, and then proceeded to roll their "real" bike out of the garage. We also had a situation in the news where a dealer sold a new rider a crotch rocket that was WAY too powerful (grandma paid for the bike - a gift to her grandson) and the kid lasted about a week before killing himself doing something stupid on it. The grandmother tried to sue the dealer because they should not have sold such an inexperienced rider such a powerful and fast machine.

And for those of you who want the govt out of your personal safety decisions (and I'm one of them) - the other side of the coin is that you take responsibility for whatever consequences arise from those decisions. You crunch your skull in a crash because you choose not to wear a helmet, then don't go running to a lawyer looking to sue someone for your injuries.

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post #28 of 45 Old Feb 20th, 2007, 10:45 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dezrat57
Bottom Line!!

there are 2 types of motorcycle riders
#1 ,riders that have been down
#2 ,riders that are going down

no matter of "riders right to choose" "freedom" or what ever

end of discussion
thx dave
Is that your Mantra, it didn't address the subject at all?
Rock
PS Been down hard 4 times,down lightly many more
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post #29 of 45 Old Feb 20th, 2007, 10:53 am
 
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Originally Posted by tbarstow
I still think that you should have to have a motorcycle endorsement to BUY a motorcycle (aside from the fact that I wouldn't buy a bike that I couldn't test ride first).
Which came first ... the chicken or trhe egg? In our locale, you need to have the m/c in order to pass the practical / riding portion of the exam to get the endorsement.

We all know helmets save lives (ask my wife) but sure hate to see anything mandated!
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post #30 of 45 Old Feb 20th, 2007, 11:11 am
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Oh, what the heck...it's a slow work day, I'll chime in

I wear a helmet and at the same time fully respect and protect a person's right NOT to. There is basically no argument that you are safer wearing a helmet, but the issue for me is much larger. I don't think the government has the duty to protect people from their own stupidity. It's not at all difficult to extrapolate from this as to other areas you could/should protect people from making unwise decisions.

Immediately you should not be allowed to: Skydive, mountain climb, have unprotected sex, scuba dive...the list goes on and on. Please stop trying to protect me from myself and work a little harder protecting me from OTHER people. All activities outside of your home (and some within) carry a level of risk. I will make those choices and I will pay the prices for those choices.

I am soooo tired of the large number of people that seem to know better than I how to live my life.

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post #31 of 45 Old Feb 20th, 2007, 11:41 am
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Why would you be surprised by this? She is just following the precedent set by her peers.
Or her predecessors.....remember that Libby Dole, as Sec of Transport, single handedly put the cyclops light in the back of our cars and raised the drinking age to 21 in all 50 states....all as an unelected official working for the Republican party. If you think the GOP is not in your shorts, you have not looked there lately.

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post #32 of 45 Old Feb 21st, 2007, 3:21 am
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Oh, what the heck...it's a slow work day, I'll chime in

I wear a helmet and at the same time fully respect and protect a person's right NOT to. There is basically no argument that you are safer wearing a helmet, but the issue for me is much larger. I don't think the government has the duty to protect people from their own stupidity. It's not at all difficult to extrapolate from this as to other areas you could/should protect people from making unwise decisions.

Immediately you should not be allowed to: Skydive, mountain climb, have unprotected sex, scuba dive...the list goes on and on. Please stop trying to protect me from myself and work a little harder protecting me from OTHER people. All activities outside of your home (and some within) carry a level of risk. I will make those choices and I will pay the prices for those choices.

I am soooo tired of the large number of people that seem to know better than I how to live my life.

My .02

Brian

Brian, I too am sitting idle in Vilnius, Lithuania airport and have nothing special to do until the plane leaves...

Now, I fully understand your frustration of government deciding for people what is safe and what is not.
In some countries (like Finland and many others as well) most hospitals are maintained with taxpayers money and medicare is very cheap if not free. Also the insurance premiums of individuals are related to the damage payments that the companies are paying for the victims of accidents.

This leads to the direct conclusion that every helmetless rider that gets severly injured (paralyzed or whatever) is being hospitalized on MY EXPENSE. And this is what I don't like.

For me it is totally OK if people want to take risks as long as they do it on their own expense. I do not want to participate in that by paying higher insurance premiums or higher taxes just to get these people treated.

So, an easy solution: People can ride ride without protective gear but their insurance premiums should be higher (or insurance totally void in case of an accident) and let them pay for their own medication.

Simple as that??

Regards

Ari "the Farkle-Freak-Finn" Ignatius

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post #33 of 45 Old Feb 21st, 2007, 5:45 am
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Originally Posted by pozo_izquierdo
Brian, I too am sitting idle in Vilnius, Lithuania airport and have nothing special to do until the plane leaves...

Now, I fully understand your frustration of government deciding for people what is safe and what is not.
In some countries (like Finland and many others as well) most hospitals are maintained with taxpayers money and medicare is very cheap if not free. Also the insurance premiums of individuals are related to the damage payments that the companies are paying for the victims of accidents.

This leads to the direct conclusion that every helmetless rider that gets severly injured (paralyzed or whatever) is being hospitalized on MY EXPENSE. And this is what I don't like.

For me it is totally OK if people want to take risks as long as they do it on their own expense. I do not want to participate in that by paying higher insurance premiums or higher taxes just to get these people treated.

So, an easy solution: People can ride ride without protective gear but their insurance premiums should be higher (or insurance totally void in case of an accident) and let them pay for their own medication.

Simple as that??

Regards
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post #34 of 45 Old Feb 21st, 2007, 12:06 pm
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Originally Posted by Briantime
I wear a helmet and at the same time fully respect and protect a person's right NOT to.
Not so, unless they live in a state without a compulsory helmet law.

In a state with a helmet law, one has a constitutional right whine about it or practice civil disobedience, challenging the law by not wearing a helmet. And wearing some non-DOT, salad bowl beanie or novelty helmet is not a form of protest. It's a cop-out and makes the wearer out to be much more of a moron and spineless dupe than if they were to ride helmetless.

Quote:
I am soooo tired of the large number of people that seem to know better than I how to live my life.
Like this one person I knew? He would complain about helmet laws and then on occasion scream at and throw someone off of a construction site because they weren't wearing the required hardhat and steel-toed shoes.

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post #35 of 45 Old Feb 21st, 2007, 12:15 pm
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Like this one person I knew? He would complain about helmet laws and then on occasion scream at and throw someone off of a construction site because they weren't wearing the required hardhat and steel-toed shoes.
Hypocrite? Prolly not. It's amazing how folk's act when their profit center is jeopardized. It get's real personal real quick when having to deal with Workers' Comp and insurance payments.



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post #36 of 45 Old Feb 22nd, 2007, 12:33 am
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....I always keep my pants zipped. But I'll be damned if the government is going to tell me that walking around with my pecker hangin' out is indecent exposure. It's my personal choice. It isn't hurting any one! Besides, Half the population's got one and you can drive by any horse ranch and see bigger. Just one more thing the nanny-state is trying to control.

Downed flys save lives!
I think the nanny-state should require a helmet on your pecker also! It's hangin' dangerous.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #37 of 45 Old Feb 22nd, 2007, 9:05 am
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[QUOTE=tkramer]Not so, unless they live in a state without a compulsory helmet law.

I live in good old Illinois. A state without a mandatory helmet law. So, yes.

Actually Illinois once had a mandatory helmet law but it was challenged and struck down in the case of State of Illinois vs. Fries. Interesting reading if you have some time to kill.

There seems to be a lot of confusion between judging someone's mental capacity by their choice of wearing a helmet or not and whether wearing a helmet should be required. I don't support legislating against "stupid", even if it could theoretically cost me tax dollars somewhere down the road. Living in a free society costs money sometimes.

So wear your helmet, or don't. Makes no difference to me. Hit that sushi bar for lunch and roll the dice. Take those skydiving lessons you always dreamed of. When it comes to your body, I'll let you make the choice.
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post #38 of 45 Old Feb 22nd, 2007, 11:05 am
 
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They are not protecting the person so much as they are protecting my insurance rates. Or so the theory should go.
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post #39 of 45 Old Feb 22nd, 2007, 2:05 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Briantime
I don't support legislating against "stupid", even if it could theoretically cost me tax dollars somewhere down the road. Living in a free society costs money sometimes.

So wear your helmet, or don't. Makes no difference to me. Hit that sushi bar for lunch and roll the dice. Take those skydiving lessons you always dreamed of. When it comes to your body, I'll let you make the choice.
Everybody has of course his own conception of "free society". I know Americans see it differently than many others...

Anyway, I want to refer to an opinion of an American whom I met during my last summer CCR trip. He lives in a state that has helmet law. The neighboring state does not have it mandatory to wear helmets (so people must be more free there I guess ..). And it also happens to be that the non-helmet state has all the nice twisty motorcycle roads and the state with the helmet law happens to have much better hospitals. Now, what happens is that whenever somebody gets injured in a motorcycle accident (and riding without helmet it happens pretty easy ) the victim is transported over the state border to the better hospitals of the neighbor. My American friend was very angry about the situation.

If higher taxes or higher insurance premiums seem too distant and abstract to understand how would one like if his or her family member does not get proper treatment for a serious disease because the local hospital ICU is occupied by some "free" helmetless bikers with serious head injuries.

The Wild West times are long gone...In a modern (and even free) society it is very hard to live just "one's own life" without somehow also affecting the life of the other members as well.

And BTW, believe it or not: In our country even the bicyclist must wear a helmet! Even if the police does not give a ticket for helmetless bicycling I still wear one. Especially after seeing my workmate's 18 year old son ending up as vegetable after colliding with a pedestrian...

Regards

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post #40 of 45 Old Feb 22nd, 2007, 5:36 pm
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Originally Posted by pozo_izquierdo

If higher taxes or higher insurance premiums seem too distant and abstract to understan[...]

Regards
Remember, you are talking to a mostly U.S. contingency on this board. I doubt they will understand your logic, as your understanding and education on what "freedom" means is conceptually misaligned with the U.S. experience.
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post #41 of 45 Old Feb 22nd, 2007, 11:12 pm
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Your insurance BS is greatly exagerated

I really don't like the gub'nent interfering with my personal choices to save you (or me) some insurance costs -- which is BS anyway.

With a current estimate of 197,608 motorcycle crashes/year in which 69,163 riders were unhelmeted, the differential healthcare economic burden between unhelmeted and helmeted motorcyclists is approximately 250,231 dollars, 734 per year and underscores the need for improved legislation to improve motorcycle helmet utilization.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=16688058

An estimated 2,361 motorcycle-related hospital discharges resulted in an annual hospitalization rate of 24.7 per 100,000 persons. Head, neck, and spinal injuries accounted for 22% of all injuries. Total costs exceeded $29 million; 29% of hospitalized patients were uninsured, and 42% of the cost was not reimbursed to the hospitals. Now if you have ever seen the difference between costs with and without insurance, who is robbing who, but I digress -- CONCLUSION: OUTLAW MOTORCYCLES! Oh, and teenage drivers. Oh, and alcohol.

Or just pay up your less than 33 cents to $5/year (depending on what stats you want to go by), ride on, and leave me alone.

BTW, I always wear my helmet and still want to be left alone in case a change my mind.
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post #42 of 45 Old Feb 23rd, 2007, 1:48 am
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Originally Posted by dhendy
I really don't like the gub'nent interfering with my personal choices to save you (or me) some insurance costs -- which is BS anyway.

With a current estimate of 197,608 motorcycle crashes/year in which 69,163 riders were unhelmeted, the differential healthcare economic burden between unhelmeted and helmeted motorcyclists is approximately 250,231 dollars, 734 per year and underscores the need for improved legislation to improve motorcycle helmet utilization.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=16688058

An estimated 2,361 motorcycle-related hospital discharges resulted in an annual hospitalization rate of 24.7 per 100,000 persons. Head, neck, and spinal injuries accounted for 22% of all injuries. Total costs exceeded $29 million; 29% of hospitalized patients were uninsured, and 42% of the cost was not reimbursed to the hospitals. Now if you have ever seen the difference between costs with and without insurance, who is robbing who, but I digress -- CONCLUSION: OUTLAW MOTORCYCLES! Oh, and teenage drivers. Oh, and alcohol.

Or just pay up your less than 33 cents to $5/year (depending on what stats you want to go by), ride on, and leave me alone.

BTW, I always wear my helmet and still want to be left alone in case a change my mind.

You found interesting website which also has these studies: (boldfacing by me)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=15580015

"...Non-helmeted motorcyclists accrued greater hospital charges and were significantly less likely to have health insurance. When controlling for alcohol or drug use, mortality continued to be significantly associated with non-helmet use. CONCLUSION: Non-helmeted motorcyclists have worse outcomes than their helmeted counterparts independent of the use of alcohol or drugs. Furthermore, they monopolize more hospital resources, incur higher hospital charges, and as non-helmeted motorcyclists frequently do not have insurance, reimbursement in this group of patients is poor. Thus, the burden of caring for these patients is transmitted to society as a whole."

or

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=7574128

"...Nonhelmeted patients were significantly more likely to sustain severe (Abbreviated Injury Score [AIS], 3 or more) or critical (AIS, 5 or more) head injury. Patients with these serious head injuries incurred almost three times the hospital charges and used a disproportionately larger share of ICU days than those with mild or no head injuries. There was a trend toward greater use of public funds or self-pay status (no insurance) for payment of hospital charges in nonhelmeted patients. CONCLUSION: Motorcycle helmet nonuse was associated with an increased incidence of serious head injury. Motorcycle trauma patients with severe or critical head injuries used a significantly greater proportion of ICU days and hospital charges than those with mild or no head injuries."

or

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=1536486

"...There were sharp declines in the number (and rates) of reported injured, hospital transports, hospital admissions, severe nonhead injuries, severe head injuries, and deaths. Serious head injuries (Abbreviated Injury Score, 3 or higher) decreased 22%. The percentage of injured motorcyclists with serious head injuries was significantly lower among the helmeted motorcyclists (5%) than among the unhelmeted cyclists (14%) for the two years combined. CONCLUSION: The reenactment of a helmet use law resulted in fewer crashes, fatalities, and severe head injuries."

or

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=11901321

"...RESULTS: In 1999, before the repeal of the helmet law, there were 52 cases evaluated at our center compared with 94 after the law change. Helmet usage decreased from 1999 (83%) to 2000 (56%). The number of brain injuries (Abbreviated Injury Scale score > or = 2) during this same time period increased from 18 to 35, and the number of fatalities from 2 to 8. CONCLUSION: The repeal of a motorcycle helmet law significantly increased the number and severity of brain injuries admitted to our trauma center."

or

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=2231995

"...Two states that weakened their helmet-use laws from comprehensive to partial during the study period had increases in motorcycle-related head injury death rates (184% and 73%), and one state that strengthened its law from partial to comprehensive had a decline in its death rate (44%). Head injury death rates based on motorcycle registrations were also lowest in states with comprehensive helmet-use laws..."

etc, etc

So as we can see, different studies can be made out of the same subject...

You mentioned also alcohol (and why not cigarettes). They both are proven to be health hazards and in many cases will lead to expensive medicare. In many countries these stimulants are more or less heavily taxed so people who use them will contribute to the costs of fixing the damages.

But...I don't want to try to change your society, you guys live as you wish and be happy with it! And I am happy that on top of my 51 % income tax + high enough insurance premiums I don't have to be participating in paying for the "freedom" of the helmetless bikers.

End of helmet discussion from my side, let's move on to the farkle department!

Anyone ever figured out how to hook up an oli pressure and oil temp gauge for the LT engine...? I'm planning a v. 2.0 of the LT dash.

Regards

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post #43 of 45 Old Feb 23rd, 2007, 6:30 am
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....Like this one person I knew: He would complain about helmet laws and then on occasion scream at and throw someone off of a construction site because they weren't wearing the required hardhat and steel-toed shoes.
Hhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. So the workers on the construction site who choose not to wear safety gear would be similar to a motorcyclist that chooses not too. Interesting analogy.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #44 of 45 Old Feb 23rd, 2007, 6:52 am
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Originally Posted by Briantime
....I don't support legislating against "stupid", even if it could theoretically cost me tax dollars somewhere down the road. Living in a free society costs money sometimes.....
Now, you reached the heart of the matter. Do we want to live in a free society? How free do we want to be? What's this freedom worth to you?

Freedom never costs just money. Freedom is paid for with blood.

I can't speak for anyone else, but my freedom is worth much more to me than just a few tax dollars!

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #45 of 45 Old Feb 23rd, 2007, 8:23 am
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You found interesting website which also has these studies: (boldfacing by me)
It was interesting, but they all just point the obvious riding a motorcycle (or driving a car) is dangerous. I just picked one from which the actual costs could be extrapolated -- since insurance companies don't publish thir actual pay outs.

From statistics, one could argue, and some do, that motorcycles are dangerous and should be outlawed. After all, using a vehicle on a US public road is a privilege.

Of course the other argument is that we need dangers and people willing to seek them to ensure the equipment, technology, and staff are available when one has an accident from a "safe situation". It just doesn't cost that much. If it was so damned expensive, just think of the hit to the medical economy if we all wore a helmet! Somehow, I don't think any facilities would shut down. It just doesn't cost enough to impact insurance rates or taxes.
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