Murder of a Police Officer - BMW Luxury Touring Community
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post #1 of 83 Old Jan 27th, 2007, 4:40 pm Thread Starter
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Murder of a Police Officer

Well, the verdict's in, I just can't agree with the more than double standard that has been set...

A kid who was running from the police on a stolen motorcycle was convicted yesterday of second degree murder..Not manslaughter but murder..
Even though he actually had nothing to do with the officers bad driving oe poor judgement that cost him his life..IF he was in over his head he should have broken off his chase.

What about the politicians and our esteemed coaches who drive drunk, Kill someone and get off with a slap on the wrist...

What about the police officer who chases some kid over a broken tail light and the kid winds up killing himself in a car wreck...They don't get charged with a thing..

Only in the fair and equal treatment of everyone can we call ourselves a just society...

I truly respect the police in every way and would never try to run from them,
But this is just ridiculous...

Yes the kid should be charged with something, But not more than the Politician, The coach, or the Police Officer would have been charged with..

JM2CW

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post #2 of 83 Old Jan 27th, 2007, 4:51 pm
 
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Do you have a link to that article John. From the information posted I do tend to agree with you -but are there extenuating circumstances ?
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post #3 of 83 Old Jan 27th, 2007, 5:27 pm
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[QUOTE=JPSpen]
What about the police officer who chases some kid over a broken tail light and the kid winds up killing himself in a car wreck...They don't get charged with a thing..


And what do you purpose to charge the Officer with?

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post #4 of 83 Old Jan 27th, 2007, 5:32 pm
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Kid got what he deserved. Officer died in pursuit of a felon, and if I were the DA, I would have pushed for first degree murder. Run from the cops, go to jail. Cause the death of anyone while running, take the fast lane to the execution chamber.


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post #5 of 83 Old Jan 27th, 2007, 5:43 pm Thread Starter
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http://www.koco.com/news/10855737/detail.html

Posted by Chipper.

Quote:
And what do you purpose to charge the Officer with?
That's just my point. The police officer wouldn't have been charged at all..

Don't get me wrong. The kid in question certainly should have been up for manslaughter but not murder. Murder is when you take a weapon and intentionally kill someone with it.

And I believe the police officer who chases a kid to his death over a tail light should be charged as well...

So there is some police chase going on. And officer Bubbah 20 miles away decides he wants in on it. So he drives his car in a completely wreckless manner and kills himself or someone else. Does the original person who was the object of the chase get charged with murder ?

I know plenty of police officers who are capable of making sound decisions.

I also know plenty of police officers who are complete bullies and adrenelin junkies... Those who would do anything to make that traffic stop...Including take an innocent life.

Now the law is trying to make one person responsible for the actions of another..

I think it's just wrong to convict this stupid kid of murder and put him away for 45 years when a famous Oklahoma coach is still walking the streets after killing a woman in a drunk driving accident...

Let's treat everyone's life as if it has equal value.. Just because you're a police officer or a politician or a coach doesn't make your life more valuable than anyone elses.

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post #6 of 83 Old Jan 27th, 2007, 5:56 pm
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Sounds like the state of OK has laws on the books governing the deaths of police officers in the course of duties.
It kind of goes with the theory of armed passenger fleeing a robbery fires at police and sadly kills officer. I would bet that not only the person doing the shooting is charged with murder, but I would be willing to bet the driver does also.

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post #7 of 83 Old Jan 27th, 2007, 6:13 pm Thread Starter
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Posted by Jeff.

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Cause the death of anyone while running, take the fast lane to the execution chamber.
You said it yourself Jeff, CAUSE the death.. This kid didn't cause this officer to wreck his car. The officer most likely taking chances that he shouldn't have been taking was his cause of death...He should have been smart enough to shut it down when it started getting out of hand...


That's why the police have radios... When I was a police dispatcher, we said, "You might outrun me but you can't outrun my Motorola"...

They would have probably caught up with this kid eventually, But for anyone to loose their life over it was just stupid.

The same logic would apply if we were riding, You on your GT and me on my LT.

I'm desparately trying to keep up with you and I crash and burn.

Are you guilty of murder for my trying to keep up with you ?

No you're not guilty of anything, I'm guilty of being stupid enough to try to do something I shouldn't be doing ....

I agree that this kid was a criminal and should have been charged with lots of lesser crimes..

Just not Murder...

John

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post #8 of 83 Old Jan 27th, 2007, 6:29 pm
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The kid caused the death by running. Once he became a felon by running, the sequences of actions that followed are a result of his feloneous actions.


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post #9 of 83 Old Jan 27th, 2007, 6:42 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPSpen
The same logic would apply if we were riding, You on your GT and me on my LT.

John
I don't know your definition of logic, but you're WAY off on this one.
  • You taking a motorcycle ride for enjoyment is far different than a police officer sworn in and doing his job on patrol enforcing the law.
  • You following a friend who rides faster than you and being too stupid to ride within your skill set and killing yourself is far different than that sworn, on duty officer pursuing a felon in a stolen vehicle, conducting the pursuit per department regulations, and in the course of that lawful pursuit, which has greatly enhance risk over normal patrol, loses his life.
  • The only reason you died on the ride is because of the situation you put yourself in. The only reason the officer died in this pursuit is because of the situation the fleeing felon put him in.
The fact of the matter is that since police officers do put their lives on the line every day for you, me, and everyone else, the penalties for refuting or ignoring the authority we have given them to protect us are, and should be, more severe. And I think in this case 2nd degree murder is justified. Read the definition below (#2 being the most pertinent to this discussion), from http://criminal.findlaw.com/crimes/a...nd_degree.html -

Murder: Second degree

Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion" or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life. Second-degree murder may best be viewed as the middle ground between first-degree murder and voluntary manslaughter.

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post #10 of 83 Old Jan 27th, 2007, 6:47 pm
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In Canada, there is no way in a million years that poor guy would be charged for anything other than theft of a vehicle and eluding police. The police officer is suppose to be in control at all times and risking the health of himself or anyone else over such a minor crime is not acceptable in this country.
That's my two cents worth.
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post #11 of 83 Old Jan 27th, 2007, 7:06 pm
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Cop got in over his head, you have got to know your limitations. At least he only killed himself and not other cops/bystanders with his recklessness.
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post #12 of 83 Old Jan 27th, 2007, 7:30 pm
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Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion" or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life.
I don't see where either of these apply. I doubt he intended for the cop to be killed, he intended to get away. And it was the officer's dangerous conduct that got him killed, not being in complete control of his vehicle during a persuit.
Following their logic for 2nd degree murder for that kid, then the congressman that killed the biker (or anyone that kills someone while DUI) should be charged with 1st degree murder, since he intentionally got drunk, intentionally got behind the wheel and intentionally blew through the red light/stop sign. All acts were premeditated.
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post #13 of 83 Old Jan 27th, 2007, 8:36 pm
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How Come Everyone Knows So Much??

I can speak my onions now because I retired from law enforcement after 28+ years. If it was one thing that never failed to amaze me was just how many people knew every aspect of how I should be doing my job. They knew how I should treat people, they knew when I should arrest someone, or give them a ticket and oh so many people knew exactly when I should chase someone. I always thought to myself," if you know so damn much how come you ain't out here helping me and putting your ass on the line like me?" But alas, no way would they do that! These were the same people that had an answer for everything usually while feeding their face in front of a TV and the most serious threat they faced in their mundane lives was getting a paper cut while reading the newspaper. These were the same jerks that never ventured out in a snow storm or blizzard to lend a hand and they damn sure never worked in a flood or hurricane. They never stood at an intersection directing traffic in 100 degree heat for hours on end due to a brown out but they could sure piss and moan when they went passed you in their air conditioned cars for holding them up from all the really important stuff they had to do.

Yeah I learned a lot one afternoon when my ass was getting thumped by two semi pro football players and not one do-gooder stopped to help. Had to be at least 75 to 100 cars that drove past me, but NOBODY stopped to offer aid. Finally an off-duty cop stopped and helped me out. So John, what have you done to help someone out? Have you put your life on the line? Have you worked as a cop? Remember the verse about casting the first stone pal. I know nothing about the incident you refer to, but I've seen it played out a hundred times. I've been to the funerals and I listened to the families sorrow. But you know what John, the goof on the bike set into motion everything that happened. He made the decision to take off from the police. From that point on HE is responsible for everything that goes on. At any point in a pursuit the bad guy can pull over and end it. Sure the police can terminate a pursuit also and many times they do, but what if the guy they are pursuing for a traffic violation just raped and killed your wife, mother or daughter and the crime hadn't been reported yet and the perp got away? Then what would you say? Would you be as quick to chastise the police for giving up on the pursuit? I had a pursuit several years ago where we found a 5 year old kid in the back seat of the car that had been stolen, but we had no prior knowledge of the kid in the car or the fact the car was stolen. Should I have just given up on that pursuit, for a burned out license plate light? Would you have wanted me to give up on that chase if it was your kid in the car???

But like you say, we have Motorola right? So just what does that mean? Does that help me stop the car? Does that help me ID the driver? Which in case you don't know is a cardinal rule of law.....proving who is driving a given vehicle. I can't make an arrest if I don't know who the person is now right?Sorry, all the radio does is lets everyone know where I am and what direction I'm heading. Motorola doesn't catch the bad guy for me anymore than lifting a single finger print from a crime scene does solves the crime. I need a suspect to solve the crime. You said the kid "probably" would have been caught later on, but in my 28 years probably didn't cut it.

At any rate John, my old department is taking applications and if you would like I can send one to you so you know first hand what a cops world is all about. You really should experience it before you tell them how to do their job. It's like complaining about politicians, but not voting. Give me a break!!

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P.S. And yes, I miss chasing the jerks in this world and I felt good catching them and putting them in jail!!!
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post #14 of 83 Old Jan 27th, 2007, 8:45 pm
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Let me see...

- We have a bank robber who runs into a bank takes the money and while doing this scares a lady to death. Is it the lady's fault that she was "reckless or negligent" in taking care of her health which resulted in a heart attack?
- Same bank robber leaves bank in a car and speeds away. Officer (who has read John's post) decides not to pursue because John may want him charged if something should happen... The bank robber drives his car to another place where he commits another crime.

The "kid" deserves the charge of murder. He/She knew the concequences of his actions. The moment he committed his crime and failed to stop for the officer his fate was sealed. The officer on the other hand was attempting to do his job and stop this "kid" so that he may not commit another crime such as run into a store, restaurant, or bank where your loved one may be.

When someone commits a crime he/she is responsible for everything that happens after that. You commit a robbery and that person dies for any reason and you are guilty of murder.

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post #15 of 83 Old Jan 27th, 2007, 9:23 pm
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Very nicely said Ric...

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post #16 of 83 Old Jan 27th, 2007, 9:26 pm Thread Starter
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Posted by Rick
Quote:
So John, what have you done to help someone out? Have you put your life on the line?
Yes, I have , More than once...And wouldn't hesitate to do it again.
Rick, I would have gotten out of my car and helped you, even if I had to shoot the thugs that were assulting you..I have stopped and helped police officers on more than one occasion..

Seems to me that there are certain risks in many job situations. Being a police officer is probably no more risky than being a rescue swimmer, or a fireman.

Or a soldier..

When you sign up to do a job, you should be aware that there are risks involved in doing that job...Especially if you do it well. But that officer received the training to know when he was reaching the limit of his abilities..He should have backed down before he got himself, or someone else killed...

In my life I have always tried to look at my situation and decide if I have reached my limit...When I find that I have, I always back down..

It really is this simple. He shouldn't have been charged with murder... Something else, yes, Lots of other things, But not murder..

John

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post #17 of 83 Old Jan 27th, 2007, 9:36 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPSpen
Well, the verdict's in, I just can't agree with the more than double standard that has been set...

A kid who was running from the police on a stolen motorcycle was convicted yesterday of second degree murder..Not manslaughter but murder..
Even though he actually had nothing to do with the officers bad driving oe poor judgement that cost him his life..IF he was in over his head he should have broken off his chase.

What about the politicians and our esteemed coaches who drive drunk, Kill someone and get off with a slap on the wrist...

What about the police officer who chases some kid over a broken tail light and the kid winds up killing himself in a car wreck...They don't get charged with a thing..

Only in the fair and equal treatment of everyone can we call ourselves a just society...

I truly respect the police in every way and would never try to run from them,
But this is just ridiculous...

Yes the kid should be charged with something, But not more than the Politician, The coach, or the Police Officer would have been charged with..

JM2CW

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post #18 of 83 Old Jan 27th, 2007, 11:55 pm
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John, you're WRONG

First off, nods to Rick.

Now here's the "rest of the story..."


Your "not his fault" rider stole the motorcycle he was on and had a TEENAGED FEMALE PASSENGER on it when he was alluding police...making that not one but two felonies...his passenger, a female, gets charged with second-degree murder.

see here for details:

http://www.kfor.com/Global/story.asp?S=4129789

(wonder if you'd want the PO-LEECE terminating the chase if that were YOUR daughter on the back of the bike...)


Second, read a little more about the case on this news site. Grider gets life plus FIVE YEARS for the Alluding charge...:

http://www.ksbitv.com/home/5379856.html


We could debate for weeks on whether the agency's pursuit policy was appropriate, and whether a supervisor should have called for the pursuit's termination. Fact is, every state, every county in every state, and every municipality in every county in every state has different "when to chase and when not to" policies.

But before you chime in with another assinine "cops are all adrenaline pumped a-holes" posting, read this:

http://www.policespecial.com/intheli...gus/Dragus.htm

OOPS, it wasn't the cop's irresponsible driving that caused him to wreck, it was a PICKUP TRUCK pulling into the line of traffic.


another link...Grider's excuse for riding 122 F**king miles per hour is that he wouldn't have done it if he wasn't being chased by the police.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16754295/



A couple points here, my two cents if you will.

First off, in all fifty states there exists such a thing called a "Felony murder rule." Defined roughly as such; if, during the course of committing a felony, those actions directly or indirectly result in the death of another, then that offender is guilty of murder.

Examples include things like:

Robbing a bank, and the explosive charge used to blow the door kills a teller--although you didn't tie the explosive to the bank teller, you still go down for murder

Taking someone hostage, and during dynamic entry an innocent person is caught in crossfire and dies--yup, you get charged with murder, even if the bullet that killed the civilian came from a police officer.

Grand Theft Auto, and while driving 120 mph, you cause someone you pass to lose control of their vehicle--without contacting it--and they hit another vehicle, causing it to flip and kill the people inside---you get charged for murder.

So guess what, Grider would have gotten charged with felony murder (or its equivalent) if during that chase an ice cream truck had smacked a tree and not a cop, too, because the death happened WHILE HE WAS COMMITTING A FELONY.

So, stolen vehicle (felony), fleeing from the police (and not just the Sgt. who lost his life), endangering the life of a SIXTEEN YEAR OLD GIRL PASSENGER while doing it, running speeds over 120 MPH ("I wouldn't have done that if the big bad policemen weren't trying to stop me after I stole this motorcycle"), another article that mentioned possible methamphetamine use before the theft, and an accident at an intersection that occurred when the Sgt. swerved to avoid a pickup truck who entered the said intersection.

Funny, but in MY analysis, this makes the Sgt. a HERO for giving his life instead of crushing the pickup truck, and it makes Grider LUCKY to have a life sentence instead of having pulled the same shit in a state like the one immediately south where killing a cop (even if it qualifies under the "felony murder rule") equals the DEATH PENALTY.

How anyone else could read this differently is beyond me, but what the hell do I know?

At least "Google" for the whole story before you dishonor a man, a department, and a profession so quickly...


Pete "Former Sheriff's Deputy" Van Dyke

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post #19 of 83 Old Jan 28th, 2007, 12:08 am
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a word from the other voice in my head...

Just to repeat...

The Sgt. died because he swerved to avoid t-boning a pickup truck that disregarded both flashing lights and sirens and entered an intersection (read the links I posted, the pickup driver in the early stages was listed as "cooperating with the police" and later reported as "will not be charged in the incident" although he could have been). The swerve that the Sgt. chose instead of the high likelihood of killing the pickup driver took him off the paved road and into a tree and killed him, leaving a wife without a husband and kids without a father.

tomato, tomahhhto...but in my eyes, this does NOT qualify as "driving beyond his abilities," "getting in over his head," "or taking chances that he shouldn't have taken"


two more cents


P

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post #20 of 83 Old Jan 28th, 2007, 12:58 am
 
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+1 to both Pete's and Ric's responses.

The kid set the chain of events in motion by committing a felony offense by trying to evade. IF this punishment were handed out evenly to anyone who commits a crime which takes a life (I'm thinking specifically of the Janklow case), some people might just start thinking a little more about the results of their actions before they decide to do the stupid.
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post #21 of 83 Old Jan 28th, 2007, 2:58 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petevandyke
(wonder if you'd want the PO-LEECE terminating the chase if that were YOUR daughter on the back of the bike...)
Damn straight I'd want them to terminate the chase if MY daughter was on the back. The longer they chase him, the greater chance that he would wreck and kill his passenger.
Quote:
OOPS, it wasn't the cop's irresponsible driving that caused him to wreck, it was a PICKUP TRUCK pulling into the line of traffic.
And yet you say the truck's driver isn't being charged. I believe it is law that you give the right of way to emergency vehicles. The thief is charged with murder but the driver that failed to yield is let off...yeah, that makes sense.
Why is it that when a drunk driver hits and kills someone they are only charged with vehicular manslaughter? Where is the difference? I still think murder 2 is a bit harsh and life +5 is a little overboard (unless this guy has a list of priors). We've got murderers, rapists, child molesters and assorted other violent felons that don't get sentences that harsh. I guess that is why we say "Justice is blind". Because the justice system can't seem to see its own foul ups.
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post #22 of 83 Old Jan 28th, 2007, 5:33 am
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Murder of a Police Officer

Quote:
Originally Posted by JPSpen
...A kid who was running from the police on a stolen motorcycle was convicted yesterday of second degree murder--not manslaughter, but murder--even though he actually had nothing to do with the officers bad driving or poor judgement that cost him his life. If he was in over his head he should have broken off his chase.

What about the police officer who chases some kid over a broken tail light and the kid winds up killing himself in a car wreck? They don't get charged with a thing.

Yes the kid should be charged with something. But, not more than the politician, the coach, or the police officer would have been charged with.
We're getting a little ahead of ourselves here. We have no information to support that the sergeant was driving badly, exhibiting poor judgement, was in over his head, or that his actions cost him his life. His actions may have saved lives. He may have given his own life to do just that.

I don't know any officer, especially in today's legal climate, who would chase someone over a broken tail light--much less get into a wreck over it.

I agree that the law should be applied equally and justice should be blind. That is in a perfect world, however. Our world is far from perfect!

I agree with you that the GTA suspect was charged with the wrong crime. The life sentence is more than appropriate, however. I believe that fleeing from police, using a M/V, should be an automatic life sentence--no intent or malice aforethought needed.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #23 of 83 Old Jan 28th, 2007, 6:14 am
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....I believe the police officer who chases a kid to his death over a tail light should be charged as well.

So there is some police chase going on. And officer Bubbah 20 miles away decides he wants in on it. So he drives his car in a completely wreckless manner and kills himself or someone else. Does the original person who was the object of the chase get charged with murder?

....I also know plenty of police officers who are complete bullies and adrenelin junkies... Those who would do anything to make that traffic stop...Including take an innocent life.

....I think it's just wrong to convict this stupid kid of murder and put him away for 45 years when a famous Oklahoma coach is still walking the streets after killing a woman in a drunk driving accident...

Let's treat everyone's life as if it has equal value....
Does your "kid" have any responsibility, if he is killed, or is it just the officer's fault for chasing him?

Your fictitious "officer Bubbah" does not exist. Such an officer would not last a minute in today's world. He'd be dead or in federal prison!

I would like to meet even one police officer who is a "bully" or "adrenalin junky." I would like to meet even one officer who "would do anything to make a traffic stop....including take an innocent life." The reason no such officer exists is that such an officer wouldn't last one day in today's America. Again, he'd be dead or in federal prison!

I agree that every life should have equal value. That is in a perfect world, however. We don't live in any such place.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #24 of 83 Old Jan 28th, 2007, 6:49 am
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....You said it yourself Jeff, CAUSE the death. This kid didn't cause this officer to wreck his car. The officer was most likely taking chances that he shouldn't have been taking was his cause of death. He should have been smart enough to shut it down when it started getting out of hand.

That's why the police have radios. When I was a police dispatcher, we said, "You might out run me, but you can't out run my Motorola."

They would have probably caught up with this kid eventually, but for anyone to loose their life over it was just stupid.

....I agree that this kid was a criminal and should have been charged with lots of lesser crimes. Just not murder.
Again, our proverbial panties are wadding here when we don't have enough info to speculate like this.

The kid may have been the cause of the sergeant's crash. There is no reason to believe that the sergeant was taking "chances" or that things were "out of hand." For all we know, he did "shut it down." We won't know all these things unless and until we are able to read the investigator's T/C report. All these reckless charges are sheer speculation at this point!

Police do have radios. Some of these bikes are so fast they can out run your radio and your helicopter!

Of course this kid would have been caught--eventually. Because he would be dead! Lucky for him, the sergeant died and he was caught before he could kill himself--or anyone else.

I agree the kid should have been charged with lessor crimes. But, his sentence was more than fair.

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post #25 of 83 Old Jan 28th, 2007, 6:59 am
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People come on here all the time crying about folks speeding through the Dragons Tail (where there is no intersecting roads)
This guy is chasing a bike beyond the triple digit mark through a place where people and vehicles can enter his track.
How many feet per second do you travel at 120mph, (pick up looks your not there looks the other way and proceeds) Roughly 180ft. 2 seconds they are well over a football field away.
Look left look right pull out something catches your eye, so your moving slowly your in the path of on coming car which you had not seen or heard.
I did not say all cops are adrenaline pumped aholes, I said he went outside his limitations period, his being dead is pretty good testament to that fact.
I didn't make any statement about if he was good cop or stupid, I said at least he didn't kill anyone else with his decision to go beyond his limitations.
Let me clarify that I think he is dead because of a selfless act at the last moment, throwing himself into the path of danger instead of some innocent bystander. (As I believe most LEO's would do) Hats off to the guy for that!
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post #26 of 83 Old Jan 28th, 2007, 7:25 am
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....This guy is chasing a bike beyond the triple digit mark through a place where people and vehicles can enter his track.
....he went outside his limitations period, his being dead is pretty good testament to that fact.
....I said at least he didn't kill anyone else with his decision to go beyond his limitations.
....Let me clarify that I think he is dead because of a selfless act at the last moment, throwing himself into the path of danger instead of some innocent bystander....Rock
Until we have an official report on the T/C, all this is total speculation.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #27 of 83 Old Jan 28th, 2007, 8:50 am
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How come everyone knows so much? ...
Sgt. Rick,

How come everyone knows so much? We're all armchair quarterbacks. We would have run a different play at a critical time during The Big Game. We would have used airpower rather than infantry during the < fill in the blank > war. We would not have chased a speeding felon.

We all have opinions (informed, uninformed, partially-informed) and it's easy to say "I would have done it differently" in the light of day -- the next day.

I've never been a police officer, but I have put my life on the line in military service. Not as dramatically as those who have served in combat, but in the sense that anyone who serves is in jeopardy.

All that being said, here's an honest (i.e.,non-rhetorical) question for you: Why is it that many cities (all cities?) have policies on high-speed pursuit, and don't those policies state when it's time to break off the pursuit and catch the bad guy down the road?

Some time ago we had a high-speed pursuit through a large city's downtown district that resulted in an innocent bystander's death -- much like the issue discussed in this thread. It sure "looked like" (there's the armchair quarterback part) they should have not blasted through downtown at 110 mph, but chosen to follow at a longer distance and let the helicopters do their job, find out where the bad guy is going and then catch him.

In short, IMO the answer to your question is: Because it's human nature to think "Oh, I would have done that differently." (which implies better).

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post #28 of 83 Old Jan 28th, 2007, 8:57 am
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I always thought to myself," if you know so damn much how come you ain't out here helping me and putting your ass on the line like me?" But alas, no way would they do that! These were the same people that had an answer for everything usually while feeding their face in front of a TV and the most serious threat they faced in their mundane lives was getting a paper cut while reading the newspaper. These were the same jerks that never ventured out in a snow storm or blizzard to lend a hand and they damn sure never worked in a flood or hurricane. They never stood at an intersection directing traffic in 100 degree heat for hours on end due to a brown out but they could sure piss and moan when they went passed you in their air conditioned cars for holding them up from all the really important stuff they had to do.

Sgt. Rick Humphreys-Proudly Retired

P.S. And yes, I miss chasing the jerks in this world and I felt good catching them and putting them in jail!!!
You did your job because you were paid to do it, period. And since your post script says you miss it you aren't doing it for free either.
Funny you should bring up floods and hurricanes. A lot of us people you complain about got up off our sofas and went to New Orleans to help for free. At the same time the local cops deserted their posts and fled the city.
To group all private citizens as weak and uncaring is as bad as saying all police officers are bad because of a few rouge cops.

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post #29 of 83 Old Jan 28th, 2007, 10:08 am
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Holy Crap! I can not believe we are even debating this. HOw is it the Cops fault? Did he still the BIke? NO!! We do know how fast he was driving through the intersection? How is it he was beyond his limit? He swerved to miss someone entering an intersection. How is that any different from you or I entering an intersection and someone pulls out in front of you? Granted you may or may not be speeding but come on here. This whole agrument sounds very very liberal minded. It's always the cops fault...Bull Spit. If the Ahole the bike had stopped we would not even be debating this thing. Period. F'ing Stop when being pursued by LEO. It is that plain and simple.

THis reminds me of a story that happened a couple years ago here inCT but the cop did stop the persuit. And then he got the call about 5 minute later of TC several miles down the road where the ahole on the bike conitued his triple digit joy ride and killed himself. So who you gonna blame on that one? THe COP? NO the idiot for speeding.

The only problem with the story we are debating is that the wrong person died in this case.

And no I am not a cop but have great respect and admiration for what they do everyday of their lives.

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post #30 of 83 Old Jan 28th, 2007, 10:16 am
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Originally Posted by bruce2000ltc
You did your job because you were paid to do it, period. And since your post script says you miss it you aren't doing it for free either.
Funny you should bring up floods and hurricanes. A lot of us people you complain about got up off our sofas and went to New Orleans to help for free. At the same time the local cops deserted their posts and fled the city.
To group all private citizens as weak and uncaring is as bad as saying all police officers are bad because of a few rouge cops.

Bruce Hodges
Bruce, I really do believe that there was much, much more to Rick's 28 years of service than his paycheck. Many officers enjoy it so much (or are just frickin' nuts), that they DO work for free (as reserves, volunteers, etc.).

I did not take Rick's remarks as complaining either. I believe he was making an observation about the amount of time it takes to get some help when you most need it--while people drive by oblivious. Believe it or not, cops need help all the time. The last time I was on the ground, wrestling with a mentally ill gentlemen, I was sure happy for a security guard's help (especially since he had no obligation to help me).

I did not take Rick's remarks to be grouping all citizens as weak and uncaring. We depend on citizens every minute of every shift. Such a remark would be so untrue, that it would be silly.

Thank you for not grouping all officers because of a very few rouge ones.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #31 of 83 Old Jan 28th, 2007, 10:50 am Thread Starter
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Thanks Guys

This has been a great discussion..

Everyone here has made legitimate points and I can truly see everyone's opinions from their point of view...

I think ( therefore I am ) that my original point of view was that the stupid kid riding the stolen bike just should not have been charged with the officer's murder. Just like the politician and the famous coach who were not charged with murder for the citizens they actually had a hand in killing..
I just don't think that was the fair part...

Yes the officer is a hero for giving his life but I also believe he gave it unnecessarily. His widow will have to deal with that for the rest of her life.

Use the radio and the helicopter to close the persuit. I just don't think it's necessary to sacrifice up your lives because of a speeding kid on a stolen bike...

And I'm also sorry because I personally know several policemen who are in it to fight and cause pain whenever they can.They're in it for the adrenelin rush.. And they are still street cops because of it.. No promotions for them.... I also know that most police officers are professionals who do a great job.

But officer Bubbah is out there.. I know him....And his name really is Bubbah.

I just don't think your life is worth any more than my life should be worth just because of the job you do...


Thanks for all the great words....


John

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post #32 of 83 Old Jan 28th, 2007, 11:30 am
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Chiming in again...

OK, read this one:

http://www.kfor.com/Global/story.asp...9&nav=menu99_1

You're a cop, it's 3am, you recognize a motorcycle that you've been looking for since it was reported as stolen for two or three days, and attempt a traffic stop. The rider with underage passenger slows in response to your lights and siren then takes off...stops and dumps off teenage girl then takes off like a bat out of hell.

Do you A) say "oh well, back to the donut store" or B) say "something is very wrong here?" particularly if you then get radio confirmation on the license plate?

(Grider wrecked a mile after Sgt. Dragus had the wreck that took his life, by the way, then eluded police--the woman who kept him hidden ended up with probation)



Here's a site that has more insider info than the regular media would get:

http://www.officer.com/article/artic...ion=2&id=26565



looks like the wreck killing Sgt. Dragus occurred when both motorcylist and pursuing officer were travelling on a green light...

Remember, the reason for the stop in the first place? The motorcycle matched the description of a "stolen" from earlier that week...seems to me that's "good police work," not too many of those rotten cops remember reports of stolen bikes from three days earlier, the reason we all pay such high insurance rates.

(before you poo-poo this source, keep in mind it comes from Lexis-Nexis, which is akin to AP in terms of reliability, it just happens to be on a police site)


THIS is why a lot of cops HATE defense attorneys...

In closing arguments, defense attorney Charles Cox said Grider has never denied he was guilty of eluding police, for which he also is charged, but he maintained his client was not to blame for the wreck that killed Dragus.

"In this particular situation, no one took Sgt. Dragus' life," Cox said. "He died in a car wreck."


Read here about how this has affected the agency, and to donate to the family

http://www.officer.com/article/artic...&siteSection=2


or if you can handle a real emotional heart-tugging, look here:

http://jonathandragus.memory-of.com/


....................

And Bruce, why don't you actually READ Rick's post...nowhere in it does he make a blanket statement about all civilians, ONLY THOSE WHO, AFTER BEING PULLED OVER FOR VIOLATING THE LAW, BECOME INSTANT EXPERTS ON HOW COPS SHOULD BE DOING THEIR JOBS.

(your words were: "To group all private citizens as weak and uncaring is as bad as saying all police officers are bad because of a few rouge cops." Spelling mistake aside, he didn't do that, my friend...RE-READ THE POST)

You also posted that he did what he did for over 20 years "because he got paid to do it, period." Well, no cops get rich being cops (unless they are dirty) that much I can guarantee, and after riding nonstop alongside Rick just four days after the 9-11 NYC tragedy in a relief trip to deliver police motorcycles and donated money for medical support, without being paid for it, I can tell you that you're throwing shit at the wrong man.


P.J. O'Rourke, writer for National Lampoon in his early days, and now a political commentator (a little liberal often for my tastes) put it best a few years when he said "We only have one 'Basic Right;' to do whatever the hell we want. However, we have one 'Basic Responsibility,' to accept the consequences for these actions."

If you choose to run from the police, it is YOU that are putting everyone in the world at risk of great bodily harm, even death, not the police, PERIOD. Whether a department has a more- or less-restrictive pursuit policy is secondary...if you decide not to pull over when you are lit up, and instead throttle up, you are putting the life of the officer and every person you pass at extreme risk, and should be punished to the full extent of the law for any and all injuries, damages, and consequences that result.

(and for the record, there are unfortunately DOZENS of police officers a year who are permanently injured or killed while driving less than FIFTEEN miles per hour through intersections, lights and sirens blazing, either pursuing fleeing suspects, or trying to get to a scene to render aid, every single call responded to carries a risk of injury or bodily harm, not just the ones involving "adrenaline junkie driving"--look at NHTSA's website---)


P

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post #33 of 83 Old Jan 28th, 2007, 11:36 am
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Rick,

Cudo's to you. You have my 100% support. Just one comment about the motorola. There has to be other police officers out there to hear your radio. In Michigan, the worthless governor is going to single handedly sink the State Police. This will give way to every asshole to flee and endanger life even more.

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post #34 of 83 Old Jan 28th, 2007, 12:27 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petevandyke
looks like the wreck killing Sgt. Dragus occurred when both motorcylist and pursuing officer were travelling on a green light...

P
Right turn on red?
He is Dead any way you slice it.
I would shoot the kid in his face for stealing the bike.
The cops life is worth no more or less than the bum under the bridge.Neither is my own.
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post #35 of 83 Old Jan 28th, 2007, 1:53 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleRock
Right turn on red?
He is Dead any way you slice it.
I would shoot the kid in his face for stealing the bike.
The cops life is worth no more or less than the bum under the bridge.Neither is my own.
Rock

then it was a right turn on red failing to yield to an emergency vehicle...still a violation...and still not automatically = "the cop was driving beyond his limits"



I've never been the victim--knock on wood--of a stolen vehicle, though I have been the victim of a vandalized one, and I can certainly sympathize and empathize with the sentiment of "shoot a car or motorcycle thief in the face." Wouldn't do it, but I know many who would...

As to your third point, my friend (and I'd like to consider you such, over the time we've communicated on here), I agree. If this D**khead had caused a minivan driven by a soccermom to go off the road and flip, killing her, he should get no less a sentence and punishment.

As an aside, the reason drunk drivers often don't get life sentences for killing someone while driving loaded is that their defense attorneys convince the juries that they were not in complete control of their actions at the time because of their impairment---the same way that "not guilty by reason of insanity" or "guilty but insane" (depending on your State) keeps many people that should be permanently removed from society from being juiced.

In this guy's case, his defense attorney wasn't able to look at the 12 in the jury box and instead of getting them to say to themselves "gee, I've gotten behind the wheel at some point in my life and driven drunk" which usually leads to comparatively light sentences for "vehicular manslaughter", it wasn't possible to find 12 jurors who would say to themselves "you know, a couple times in my life I've stolen a motorcycle and ran from the cops at 120+ mph, in a pursuit that led to an officer's death too, maybe we should cut this guy a little slack..."

(read the articles, this guy had more than 5 prior arrests some of which included incarceration--a year previous he was arrested with methamphetamine in his possession and resisted arrest quite strenuously--we could speculate all day and night as to what his next extracurricular activity might have been had he not been pursued that evening...maybe something violent, maybe something worse, who knows)


Now everyone, PLEASE don't confuse this with increased punishment for those who kill a cop who has identified himself/herself as such in order to escape (example: robbery of a 7-11 in progress, officer says "POLICE! Don't Move!" and the dirtbag shoots to enable escape) in which case most states ADD an additional charge and penalty--in many states automatic death sentence--and rightfully so. (Otherwise, we end up in a lawless state where there is no incentive for that NOT to happen...)

Motorcycle not stolen...traffic stop wouldn't have been initiated...rider stopped...pursuit wouldn't have started...rider stopped when he dumped off his passenger...pursuit wouldn't have continued...pursuit didn't continue...honorable man who devoted his professional life to protecting and SERVING others wouldn't have been lost. Chain could have been broken anywhere, but I can at least see where the first few links are...


Bottom line, from my perspective, is that those who protect us go out on patrol daily facing the unknown on every traffic stop, have to be the ones going IN to the chaos when everyone else is running AWAY from it, and with the exception of a small handful of bad apples who do it for the wrong reasons, do it because they have a calling for it and because despite the long hours, shitty pay, and horrific work conditions, they get to make a difference in the life of a child, or a battered woman, or an accident victim every once in a while.

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post #36 of 83 Old Jan 28th, 2007, 2:19 pm
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Murder of a Police Officer

To Howard: Yes, almost all LE agencies have specific policies that regulate high speed pursuits. Speaking as a supervisor, it's a very difficult call to make when deciding to terminate a chase. All sorts of variables must be taken into consideration such as traffic, weather, the violation, the area, the experience of the officer running the pursuit etc. Make the call too soon and you risk being labeled overly cautious. Make the call too late...well you know the rest. There's no school that teaches this kind of supervisory action, it's training and experience that gives you the knowledge and gut feeling when it's time to say enough. If no one gets hurt you're a hero, if it results in death or injury you're a incompetent supervisor.

To Bruce: No sir, it's not the pay, trust me. Being a cop isn't like anything else and unless you work on a handful of departments the pay sucks. Care to know how many times I missed Christmas with my family while I was working midnights. How many did you miss? How much money would it be worth to you to work a semi crash in -80 degree windchills? I was making $7.95 an hour at the time and it took 3 hours to get the driver out of the truck. I suffered frostbite that still bothers me 20 years later when I get cold. There were more than a few times when I questioned my sanity for going into law enforcement based on what I was being paid. I did my job because I took an oath to support the Constitution of the United States and the State of Wisconsin and part of that oath was to complete any assignment given to me to the best of my ability. That meant to me, never quit no matter how difficult the mission or assignment. My dedication (or stupidity) placed me in harm's way thousands of times. Problem was I didn't think about most of the danger I had been in until well after the event had taken place. I don't want to sound like I'm blowing my own horn here, because every cop worth their salt does the same thing every minute of the day without giving a second thought to the danger they face. They never ask for damn thing except may be a thank you every now and then, but those words are far and few in coming. I remember after 9/11 how people would come up to me and say " hi trooper, thanks for doing your job". That lasted about a month or so. Want to see a shocked look on a cops face??? Just go up to one and say "thanks for doing a great job"! You will make that man or womans day for sure. The same holds true for the men and women in military service. It sure isn't the pay that keeps most of them in active status, yet many of them look home from far away and wonder what the hell is going on here , but that's another story that unfortunately was played out once before.

To Jay: Thank you for your kind words. At least you understand some of what I had to say.

Lastly, as I said before I know nothing regarding the facts of the chase referenced by John initially, but I have witnessed this same type of situation many times before. If your information is coming only from the news media then shame on you. Perhaps they get it right 50% of the time at best. If the sergeant that was killed did in fact swerve from direct contact with another vehicle than God Bless him for he paid the ultimate price. Every kid in this country over the age of 12 knows that if a cop is trying to stop a vehicle you are operating, you MUST stop. If you choose to disregard the order to stop EVERYTHING that takes place after that is on your shoulders. The law regarding felony/murder has already been explained so there is no sense going into it again, but I'll cite two examples. A robber goes into a bank with a gun sans ammunition. He has no intent what-so-ever of hurting anyone yet the teller he points the gun at has a heart attack and dies, guess what the robber is charged with? Yep, murder. In another similar situation, there is a guy waiting in a get-away car for the same robber. When he is apprehended guess what he is charged with? Yep, murder, same as if he was holding the gun that caused the teller to have the heart attack. Sound a little too cruel? Not as far as I'm concerned, the teller had a right to life did she not? By the way, that is a true story and one that caused a number of states in enact felony/murder laws.

And lastly to John: I hope you understand my concerns here. We have become a nation of uninvolved arm-chair quarterbacks who know everything, but choose to do nothing but flap their lips. Lord knows that problem runs rampant in Congress and filters down from there. From the evidence you presented, the kid on the bike (and just how old was he?) was as guilty of killing the sergeant that crashed, as if he had pulled out a gun and shot him. Absolutely NONE of this would have taken place IF the kid would have just stopped. Make a bad decision and it will cost you. That's called LIFE, deal with it and quit blaming everyone else. Rick

P.S. I forgot to mention in my earlier post that the guy I pursued with the kid in the car, well the kid wasn't his, he had been abducted. what do you think would have happened to the child if I would have terminated my chase, or my sergeant would have called it off? For the record, it takes between 5 and 15 miles for a perp to slow down once a pursuit is called off. Food for thought......
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post #37 of 83 Old Jan 28th, 2007, 2:32 pm
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After Thought

Let me caution some of you, if by chance you do have an opportunity to "thank" a cop, be ready for a total look of bewilderment on the cops face. They won't expect it and may even laugh a little because inside they are probably saying "what's wrong with this person?" Later on though it will mean a lot to them. One more thing, if you are at a restaurant with your little kids and you see a cop, please don't tell them if they don't eat you are going to have the cop arrest them. I can't tell you how many times that happened to me and it drove me nuts! That's what starts kids thinking cops aren't there to help them. Rick
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post #38 of 83 Old Jan 28th, 2007, 2:48 pm
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I have been a cop for 19 years. Last 13 have been on motors. When I first started we were allow to chase with supervisor approval. We could start a chase for anything. We now have a "no" pursuit policy only for forceable felonies. We can chase down speeders, but must stop if they refuse to stop. Speed up, run lights, stop etc........... Over the years, I guess my age is chases are not for me. They are dangerous and most end in a crashes. I do not chase, but I know how hard is not chase, we you get one that runs. So I glad for our policy, probably has saved more lives than we will ever know. For the last 19 years my goal each day is to come home. And so far, knocking on wood, I have.

In my department when you have lights and siren and crash, 99% the officer will be written up. You must use "do care", when operating lights and siren. You can not go through a red light at 90mph just cause you are chasing someone. Our policy is 15mph, and if I am running lights, I "Stop" before going into the intersection checking all traffic.
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post #39 of 83 Old Jan 28th, 2007, 2:49 pm
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I don't hold cops in any different light than any one else.
Dead is dead, go tell his wife and kids you think he made the right choice, sound like pretty hollow words in that respect.
Blame it on anyone but him, the bike rider the truck driver whoever, you want... he was still the one behind the wheel and now he is dead. I hold my same points past his limitation.
Your never gonna convince me other wise, so with all due respect to other on the list, I'll bow out.
Rock
PS Posting up quotes from NHTSA is a joke, if you want to take what they say into play "Motorcyclists Are the Scourge of Americas Highways" Dr. Jeffrey Grunge (I may have spelled his name wrong,)
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post #40 of 83 Old Jan 28th, 2007, 2:58 pm
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Sorry
Reading back over this I see that I had failed to mention
That I totaled a cop car coming into the intersection almost killing him in 1984
He had had on neither rollers nor siren was going against the red light.
They tried to get me to pay for the crusier,
Rock
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post #41 of 83 Old Jan 28th, 2007, 3:29 pm
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Thanks

To Ric, Pete, Tony, Chipper, John, and the other officers on the list,

I want to say Thank You for all you do. Being a police office, fire fighter, para-medic or soldier, for that matter, are all special callings. Not everyone can do the job that you do day after day and deal with the situations that you have to deal with. I sure wouldn't want to do it day after day.

Thanks Again!!!

And for all you other folks, want to make someone's day? Walk up to a police office, fire fighter, or para-medic when you're traveling, stick out your hand and say "I don't live here, but I want to thank you for the job you do." Find a someone in the military and thank them for their service to their country whether you believe in the war or not. No matter how bad a day their having, I can promise you, IT WILL MAKE THEIR DAY.

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post #42 of 83 Old Jan 28th, 2007, 3:55 pm
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Apparently the jury felt they had enough information/evidence to convict and not become a hung jury.

We are basing our views on the media that we know NEVER sensationalize or bend the information (truth) to sell papers or improve ratings, so some may not feel that the conviction was proper some may feel it was excessive but the jury convicted him and they are the one that have to live with that right or wrong.

Lets see if the case goes to appeal, which I am sure it will and if the courts feel the sentence was excessive it will surely be overturned.

We have have a jury system in this country so not just one person is deciding the suspects fate. It has been said that a person is tried by a jury that is not smart enough to get out of serving. When is that last time you did not try to avoid your civic duty.

Rusty Snyder
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post #43 of 83 Old Jan 28th, 2007, 4:05 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jayjacobson
Your fictitious "officer Bubbah" does not exist. Such an officer would not last a minute in today's world. He'd be dead or in federal prison!

I would like to meet even one police officer who is a "bully" or "adrenalin junky." I would like to meet even one officer who "would do anything to make a traffic stop....including take an innocent life." The reason no such officer exists is that such an officer wouldn't last one day in today's America. Again, he'd be dead or in federal prison!
Oh but he does exist! A few years ago we had a drive off (pumped gas and didn't pay) and the police were called. High speed persuit ensued involving 2 state police cruisers and no less than 6 sherriff's patrol cars from 2 different counties. The chase ranged from small 2 lane roads to I95 and then back to 2 laners. During the persuit one of the sherriff's men got a bit over zealous and ran a loaded school bus off the road. Fortuantely none of the children were hurt.
they finally caught the guy (he was driving one of the small Blazers and they took forever to catch up with him) He had a few arrests for petty crimes (bounced checks etc) and the total on the pump that he drove off from??? $14.
Officer Bubba is alive and well in this country and still has a job.
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post #44 of 83 Old Jan 28th, 2007, 4:49 pm
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There are some cops that feel you chase until the wheels will fall off and chase for everything. If the cops did not chase our courty will go to poo.
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post #45 of 83 Old Jan 28th, 2007, 4:51 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleRock
I don't hold cops in any different light than any one else.
Dead is dead, go tell his wife and kids you think he made the right choice, sound like pretty hollow words in that respect.
Blame it on anyone but him, the bike rider the truck driver whoever, you want... he was still the one behind the wheel and now he is dead. I hold my same points past his limitation.
Your never gonna convince me other wise, so with all due respect to other on the list, I'll bow out.
Rock
PS Posting up quotes from NHTSA is a joke, if you want to take what they say into play "Motorcyclists Are the Scourge of Americas Highways" Dr. Jeffrey Grunge (I may have spelled his name wrong,)
Uncle Rock says it the best. "Dead is Dead", over what??? Taillight stolen motorcycle. I can not believe I typing this, man I am getting old.
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post #46 of 83 Old Jan 28th, 2007, 4:52 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve_R
To Ric, Pete, Tony, Chipper, John, and the other officers on the list,

I want to say Thank You for all you do. Being a police office, fire fighter, para-medic or soldier, for that matter, are all special callings. Not everyone can do the job that you do day after day and deal with the situations that you have to deal with. I sure wouldn't want to do it day after day.

Thanks Again!!!

And for all you other folks, want to make someone's day? Walk up to a police office, fire fighter, or para-medic when you're traveling, stick out your hand and say "I don't live here, but I want to thank you for the job you do." Find a someone in the military and thank them for their service to their country whether you believe in the war or not. No matter how bad a day their having, I can promise you, IT WILL MAKE THEIR DAY.
Steve, thanks, I do it for people like you. I would take a bullet for you anyday.
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post #47 of 83 Old Jan 28th, 2007, 4:56 pm
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That is like a while back, a mother lost her son to the war in Iraq. There was some hate mail. I e-mail her and told her that her son life allowed my children to walk this country in freedom. Speak English, and say what they want without fear. Her son died as in my eyes, a "hero". God Bless this country, cops, soldiers, firefolks, Lt riders, EMTs etc...........
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post #48 of 83 Old Jan 28th, 2007, 7:33 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve_R
To Ric, Pete, Tony, Chipper, John, and the other officers on the list,

I want to say Thank You for all you do. Being a police office, fire fighter, para-medic or soldier, for that matter, are all special callings. Not everyone can do the job that you do day after day and deal with the situations that you have to deal with. I sure wouldn't want to do it day after day.

Thanks Again!!!

And for all you other folks, want to make someone's day? Walk up to a police office, fire fighter, or para-medic when you're traveling, stick out your hand and say "I don't live here, but I want to thank you for the job you do." Find a someone in the military and thank them for their service to their country whether you believe in the war or not. No matter how bad a day their having, I can promise you, IT WILL MAKE THEIR DAY.
[BLUSH]

Thank you for that, Steve, it means a lot to me.

I would like to think that I can speak for the others in saying that we don't do what we do for the thanks (or for the unremarkable pay that most of us earn), but it IS nice to hear a sincere thank you from time to time.

I will always remember one time out to dinner, I had taken along one of my newly-minted sergeants in recognition of his promotion. We were at a fairly nice steakhouse where dinner for two (sans alcohol) runs a little under one hundred dollars with dessert, tax, and tip. When I asked the waiter for our check, he handed me the check folio with only a note inside that said something along the lines of thank you for what you do to keep our families safe. God Bless You. The waiter said our benefactor wanted to remain anonymous and had already left. You could have knocked me over with a feather!

Interesting that you made the suggestion that you did. After the RTE yesterday, I went to Austin to visit a friend. Later, when I was checking into my hotel, I noticed a cover with "Vietnam Veteran" and a campaign ribbon embroidered on it. I asked the night clerk if it was his. When he said that it was, I put out my hand, looked him in the eye, and thanked him for his service to our nation. He took a moment, shook my hand, and said he had only heard that a handful of times since he returned home all those years ago. It made the guy's day, and it made mine that those few words meant so much to him.

Antony (Tripod)
Dallas' Northern Suburbs
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post #49 of 83 Old Jan 28th, 2007, 7:58 pm
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back atcha' Bruce...

you wrote to Rick:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce2000ltc
You did your job because you were paid to do it, period. And since your post script says you miss it you aren't doing it for free either.
Funny you should bring up floods and hurricanes. A lot of us people you complain about got up off our sofas and went to New Orleans to help for free. At the same time the local cops deserted their posts and fled the city.
To group all private citizens as weak and uncaring is as bad as saying all police officers are bad because of a few rouge cops.

Bruce Hodges


First off, it's rogue cops, unless you mean they are colored red......particularly humorous when you read what you posted to me about comprehension...



Well let's see Pete,

In the title of his post he writes "How come everyone knows so much??" He then writes: "If it was one thing that never failed to amaze me was just how many people knew every aspect of how I should be doing my job. They knew how I should treat people, they knew when I should arrest someone, or give them a ticket and oh so many people knew exactly when I should chase someone."

The only part where he refers to pulling someone over for breaking the law is when he writes "or give them a ticket".

I suggest you re-read his post. Maybe this time you'll comprehend it.


And, I'm not throwing shit at anyone....I'm just tossing it back.

Bruce Hodges





We can go mano a mano all day on reading comprehension (but I wager my Masters in Adult and Continuing Education and post-grad studies in Education are gonna' come out on top in this one). I'll ALSO bet that you are the ONLY one who read his original post and interpreted that to mean he was (your words) "(grouping) all private citizens as weak and uncaring."



Tell y'all what (I'm working on my Texan, too), I think I can summarize this messy-ass thread and put it to rest:


1. It SUCKS worse than a Bill Clinton intern that a police officer died

2. It ALSO sucks that in today's America, the "Justice System" is neither fair, nor just, and that depending on who you are, how much money you have, how skilled a team of defense attorneys you can hire, and the "spin" that can be put on one's case, equal punishment is quite often NOT dished out for equal crime (OJ Simpson, Jankowski or whatever his name is, every drunk driver who kills someone, countless examples)

3. Yes, there are some asshole cops on the streets today, and unfortunately people remember the unprofessional actions of a poorly-trained, poorly-supervised, or just plain "shouldn't be a cop" cop much longer and much more vividly than the one that is helpful.

4. There are also some asshole teachers, and waitresses, and dentists, and muffler installers, and garbagemen, and POLTICIANS, and computer engineers, and college professors, and technical support telephone operators as well

5. There are also some wonderful cops (and firemen, and soldiers, and EMTs, and nurses, etc.) who felt a calling to their professions, who have taken abuse that others could never imagine, put their lives on the line every week, and many have paid the ultimate sacrifice...I wonder how many servicemen and women died today in Afghanistan and Iraq and Kosovo and... by the way

6. People who steal other people's motorcycles are giant, full-blown assholes, and in a perfect world, would be shot in the face.

7. If not shot in the face, at least knee-capped

8. Ok, shot in the face. Twice. Three times if you have extra ammo.

9. There is ENORMOUS disparity in pursuit policy...as an example, last month in the Dallas area there was a pickup truck being driven at high speed and chased by three local agency pursuit vehicles, all of whom happily backed off when the Texas Department of Public Safety showed up...because they don't play bullshit "chase for three hours" games, and as expected, quickly had a Trooper leaning out of the window SHOOTING OUT ALL FOUR TIRES. Which is why people don't run from the cops in Texas.

10. ANY pursuit can result in loss of life...to the Police, to those pursued, and to the innocent...and although we're all supposed to stop immediately when lights and sirens are rolling, sometimes people don't (because they don't hear/see it, or whatever reason). Any time this happens, it's a tragedy.

11. No one who posted said that the guy who stole someone else's motorcycle and then evaded police shouldn't be punished. The issue of contention that has ignited some ill feelings and misdirected "pro/anti-police" discussion seems to be misplaced frustration with the lack of consistency in the American criminal justice system.

12. I don't think anyone here would say the guy shouldn't be punished, and in reality, I don't think anyone here would make the statement that his actions had nothing to do with the Sgt's death. The bike thief is a piece of shit...I think the misplaced frustration in this thread is that others have gotten LESSER sentences, not that he shouldn't have gotten 45 + 5 years.

13. We are all "above" prejudicial grouping and stereotyping (except for Dutch-Surnamed guys in Dallas--they are all assholes), so let's back off the "all cops suck" or "all _____ are _________" stuff. Or, as a friend puts it, "Why stereotype someone based solely on their race or creed or religion or other grouping, when if you spend enough time, you can surely find something to dislike about the person on the individual level."


There, let's all take a breath, especially me, relax knowing that our bikes won't get stolen by this shitbag for 45 + 5 ....oh wait a minute, make that 4.5 to 5 years...american justice system again...and bitch about something worth bitching about...for most of us tomorrow is Monday and we have to go to work again.


Pete Van Dyke who lives in Dallas (see 13 above)

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post #50 of 83 Old Jan 28th, 2007, 9:00 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petevandyke
you wrote to Rick:





First off, it's rogue cops, unless you mean they are colored red......particularly humorous when you read what you posted to me about comprehension...



Well let's see Pete,

In the title of his post he writes "How come everyone knows so much??" He then writes: "If it was one thing that never failed to amaze me was just how many people knew every aspect of how I should be doing my job. They knew how I should treat people, they knew when I should arrest someone, or give them a ticket and oh so many people knew exactly when I should chase someone."

The only part where he refers to pulling someone over for breaking the law is when he writes "or give them a ticket".

I suggest you re-read his post. Maybe this time you'll comprehend it.


And, I'm not throwing shit at anyone....I'm just tossing it back.

Bruce Hodges





We can go mano a mano all day on reading comprehension (but I wager my Masters in Adult and Continuing Education and post-grad studies in Education are gonna' come out on top in this one). I'll ALSO bet that you are the ONLY one who read his original post and interpreted that to mean he was (your words) "(grouping) all private citizens as weak and uncaring."



Tell y'all what (I'm working on my Texan, too), I think I can summarize this messy-ass thread and put it to rest:


1. It SUCKS worse than a Bill Clinton intern that a police officer died

2. It ALSO sucks that in today's America, the "Justice System" is neither fair, nor just, and that depending on who you are, how much money you have, how skilled a team of defense attorneys you can hire, and the "spin" that can be put on one's case, equal punishment is quite often NOT dished out for equal crime (OJ Simpson, Jankowski or whatever his name is, every drunk driver who kills someone, countless examples)

3. Yes, there are some asshole cops on the streets today, and unfortunately people remember the unprofessional actions of a poorly-trained, poorly-supervised, or just plain "shouldn't be a cop" cop much longer and much more vividly than the one that is helpful.

4. There are also some asshole teachers, and waitresses, and dentists, and muffler installers, and garbagemen, and POLTICIANS, and computer engineers, and college professors, and technical support telephone operators as well

5. There are also some wonderful cops (and firemen, and soldiers, and EMTs, and nurses, etc.) who felt a calling to their professions, who have taken abuse that others could never imagine, put their lives on the line every week, and many have paid the ultimate sacrifice...I wonder how many servicemen and women died today in Afghanistan and Iraq and Kosovo and... by the way

6. People who steal other people's motorcycles are giant, full-blown assholes, and in a perfect world, would be shot in the face.

7. If not shot in the face, at least knee-capped

8. Ok, shot in the face. Twice. Three times if you have extra ammo.

9. There is ENORMOUS disparity in pursuit policy...as an example, last month in the Dallas area there was a pickup truck being driven at high speed and chased by three local agency pursuit vehicles, all of whom happily backed off when the Texas Department of Public Safety showed up...because they don't play bullshit "chase for three hours" games, and as expected, quickly had a Trooper leaning out of the window SHOOTING OUT ALL FOUR TIRES. Which is why people don't run from the cops in Texas.

10. ANY pursuit can result in loss of life...to the Police, to those pursued, and to the innocent...and although we're all supposed to stop immediately when lights and sirens are rolling, sometimes people don't (because they don't hear/see it, or whatever reason). Any time this happens, it's a tragedy.

11. No one who posted said that the guy who stole someone else's motorcycle and then evaded police shouldn't be punished. The issue of contention that has ignited some ill feelings and misdirected "pro/anti-police" discussion seems to be misplaced frustration with the lack of consistency in the American criminal justice system.

12. I don't think anyone here would say the guy shouldn't be punished, and in reality, I don't think anyone here would make the statement that his actions had nothing to do with the Sgt's death. The bike thief is a piece of shit...I think the misplaced frustration in this thread is that others have gotten LESSER sentences, not that he shouldn't have gotten 45 + 5 years.

13. We are all "above" prejudicial grouping and stereotyping (except for Dutch-Surnamed guys in Dallas--they are all assholes), so let's back off the "all cops suck" or "all _____ are _________" stuff. Or, as a friend puts it, "Why stereotype someone based solely on their race or creed or religion or other grouping, when if you spend enough time, you can surely find something to dislike about the person on the individual level."


There, let's all take a breath, especially me, relax knowing that our bikes won't get stolen by this shitbag for 45 + 5 ....oh wait a minute, make that 4.5 to 5 years...american justice system again...and bitch about something worth bitching about...for most of us tomorrow is Monday and we have to go to work again.


Pete Van Dyke who lives in Dallas (see 13 above)
I had a change of heart and deleted my post that you referred to here. Apparently I deleted it while your were writing the above. I wanted to delete my original post too, but it wouldn't let me.
I realized that the last thing I wanted was to come across as slamming police officers. It's not something I do....It's not me.

Written communication is a funny thing. No matter how precise or clear we think we wrote it, we cannot control its interpretation...you know, the reading between the lines.

I apologize to you and Rick.....and oh, for misspelling rogue too. ;>)

Bruce Hodges
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