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post #1 of 14 Old Dec 20th, 2006, 1:07 pm Thread Starter
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This should stir up a mess

I got this from the MSF the other day.

"Motorcycle Safety Foundation Files Lawsuit
to Protect Intellectual Property Rights "

https://online.msf-usa.org/perspecti...E8TkTRGA%3d%3d

I believe in the MSF and what it tries to do, i.e. teach people to ride more safely. And give basic skills training. But I don;t care for this kind of thing. I know MCN has published the articles against the MSF and that the Oregon program is liked by many.

I also understand protecting your trademarks and copyrights.

So I guess the MSF has to do this. Maybe the courts will rule that it isn't an infringement and let them continue to TRAIN riders.

Rando
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post #2 of 14 Old Dec 20th, 2006, 1:48 pm
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Would like to know what the base the suit one. A cone weave is a cone weave. Will I get sued if I put down cones, talk about the weave, do a demo on the weave and have someone pay me??? Is this like Harley attempting to trademark their sound.
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post #3 of 14 Old Dec 20th, 2006, 2:03 pm Thread Starter
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Did you read the article? Looks like the MSF is claiming they stole the curriculum, basically. I'm not sure. Aren't you the one that does the videos? I guess you could have an interest in this too, huh?

I would think that teaching a cone weave would be okay, but using the whole basic class would be out. After all, if they don;t file the suit and others develop their own courses similar to the MSF class, then the copyright would be useless and the whole MSF empire would fall apart. I'll stop at that, I guess. Not sure that saying anything else would be useful. But where does progress come from? People developing their own ideas from others. There is nothing much originbal in this world that can't be traced back to something before.

I'm thinking about this way more than I want to now....I can see both sides and it's causing inner conflict, which leads to drinking demon rum and .....

Rando
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post #4 of 14 Old Dec 20th, 2006, 4:06 pm
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Welcome to the Cluster Froth that's US Intellectual Property Law. Aughta talk to one of your friendly neighborhood software developers to see what kinda nightmares are going on - even in the FOSS world.

Gotta admit - I like Linus' take on closed driver 'n the kernel - even if it pisses off the Stallmanites.

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post #5 of 14 Old Dec 20th, 2006, 7:27 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rando
Did you read the article? Looks like the MSF is claiming they stole the curriculum, basically. I'm not sure. Aren't you the one that does the videos? I guess you could have an interest in this too, huh?

I would think that teaching a cone weave would be okay, but using the whole basic class would be out. After all, if they don;t file the suit and others develop their own courses similar to the MSF class, then the copyright would be useless and the whole MSF empire would fall apart. I'll stop at that, I guess. Not sure that saying anything else would be useful. But where does progress come from? People developing their own ideas from others. There is nothing much originbal in this world that can't be traced back to something before.

I'm thinking about this way more than I want to now....I can see both sides and it's causing inner conflict, which leads to drinking demon rum and .....

Rando
I am not the video guy, that is motorman Pallamio, or something like that. I am the real motorman587. I have on the side done private lessons and taken money. I stay away from the MSF exericse and pick exerices that I know is not trademark, like LEO courses. I keep all my MSF stuff at home when I do this.
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post #6 of 14 Old Dec 20th, 2006, 9:11 pm
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Having discussed all this with the State Directors for Idaho, Washington and Oregon, as well as Connecticut and Tennessee, what I surmise is happening started with the implementation of the new BRC course and the Rider-Coach designation of the former Instructors.

There are many MSF grass-roots people who are not totally in love with the new class, feeling that it caters to the lowest acheiver, rather than to the student who seems to be learning. Net result, some think, is that the class turns out LESS competent riders, and more of them. Team Oregon has gone so far as to refuse to go with the new program even when MSF stopped recognition and support of the old MRC:RSS.

Team Oregon went and developed their own curriculum.

MSF says it is the same as their 'old' one, and that it belongs to them, whether they use it or not. If Oregon wants to use it, they must 'buy' the rights to it. Either way, MSF will not support its use. Think in terms of someone wanting to keep using Windows for Workgroups, but not wanting to acknowledge the Microsoft origins.

Anyway, that's my take on the situation. Unfortunately, it does not bode well for the entire Motorcycle Safety community, IMNSHO.

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post #7 of 14 Old Dec 21st, 2006, 12:41 am
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screw 'em, I hope MSF makes a killing on this one

Re-read the article, gentlemen (and ladies).

MSF said cease and desist promoting your course, which you are MAKING MONEY on, as being sanctioned by MSF (which it ain't), and the university basically said "make us" so they are.

I ran the Northwestern University/Harley Davidson Police Motorcycle program for just under seven years...the ONLY factory-sponsored program in existence. There was a, pardon the vernacular, world-class asshole cop in Indiana who was teaching our two-week program in a four-day format, and advertising it as "officially sponsored by Northwestern AND Harley."

I called the guy, didn't tell him who I was or where I was from, asked him "so, is this an official Northwestern University class?"

The guy replied "yes, we're one of only TWO sites in the world that are licensed to provide this training by Northwestern and Harley Davidson..." and then dropped the name of the then director of Police and Fleet Sales at H-D, saying "John so-and-so from Harley's Police Division even provides the motorcycles for our program."

Biting my lip to keep from laughing (we did not have ANY "licensed sites" for our training AND he was using a condensed version of training we had abandoned and revised twice in the TEN YEARS since he stole it) I then asked "wow, so, if I come there, do I get an actual NORTHWESTERN UNIVERSITY diploma?"

He said "yes, indeed, you do, and it also has the official stamp of Harley-Davidson"

Now, Northwestern University is a fortune FIFTY corporation with an operating budget in the billions, with it's own law school, and a "legal division" full of pitbulls, but that's NOTHING compared to "The Motor Company's" legal rottweilers. Yet letters from both entities to this clown AND to the police department that was sanctioning his training by letting him use their property (and thus, exposing them to liability in case of injury, etc.) wasn't even enough to stop the bootleg training...it was the guy's passing away from cancer a number of months later that finally, pardon the unfortunate juxtaposition of words here, killed his program.

So, before you slam MSF--which in MY humble opinion does a LOAD of good but does have a couple areas in which they may be deserving of slamming--re-read the article again.

Specifically:

The suit seeks to permanently enjoin the defendants from using the Team Oregon BRT, or any other product that infringes upon the MSF's copyrights, as well as from marketing or offering the Team Oregon BRT to other states or entities, and from making false endorsements.


They ain't suing because someone is teaching the same kind of exercises, they are suing because a major-league institution is claiming that the MSF endorses what they are doing, when they don't, which is not only a liability issue, but is downright wrong.

It would be like ol' Grif and I offering a weekend mechanics class, based on repairing lawnmower engines, and handing out diplomas that had the BMW logo and "Harvard University" and telling people who shelled out thousands that they are now officially certified "BMW Motorcycle Technicians."

(now, if we told them they were Honda certified techs, no one would complain...but that's another thread)



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post #8 of 14 Old Dec 21st, 2006, 6:58 am Thread Starter
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Okay. Sorry motorman, for the mixup.

As for the rest, I can see the MSF's side and I can see the "other' side. I'm not familiar with team Oregon's class, so I can't really comment on how much it is similar to the old RSS. I am (was) certified in the the RSS as well as the BRC. I was in the last IP class in NC to do the RSS. I took the RSS, also, several years back. I have my opinions on the pros and cons of both classes.

We'll see how it all turns out. I don;t stand to lose anything either way, I guess, unless the MSF folds completely or makes some kind of drastic policy change, which according to some, could happen.

I do not like when someone takes my designs to another company and has them produced. UNfotunately, in our field (signs), there is usually not enough money to be worth trying to press the matter. the lawyer fees would far outweigh the results. But I do know how it feels on a personal level to put your time, money, and effort, into something (intellectual property) and have someone STEAL it.

Rando
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post #9 of 14 Old Dec 21st, 2006, 7:48 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jayz9705
Having discussed all this with the State Directors for Idaho, Washington and Oregon, as well as Connecticut and Tennessee, what I surmise is happening started with the implementation of the new BRC course and the Rider-Coach designation of the former Instructors.

There are many MSF grass-roots people who are not totally in love with the new class, feeling that it caters to the lowest acheiver, rather than to the student who seems to be learning. Net result, some think, is that the class turns out LESS competent riders, and more of them. Team Oregon has gone so far as to refuse to go with the new program even when MSF stopped recognition and support of the old MRC:RSS.

Team Oregon went and developed their own curriculum.

MSF says it is the same as their 'old' one, and that it belongs to them, whether they use it or not. If Oregon wants to use it, they must 'buy' the rights to it. Either way, MSF will not support its use. Think in terms of someone wanting to keep using Windows for Workgroups, but not wanting to acknowledge the Microsoft origins.

Anyway, that's my take on the situation. Unfortunately, it does not bode well for the entire Motorcycle Safety community, IMNSHO.
No it does not Jay, and your right about some thinking the "new" brc is too easy, and it is for some riders, but like you know I have seen some riders that need that easy of a class. It is after all better than nothing

I see MSF's stance here but I also _feel_ MSF is doing this purely to stay on top and for no other reason. I would have to actually see the changes they made in the class to really say that. But if MSF wins this they can make sure No other has training that will do any good in the U.S. getting a monopoly on rider education, which IMHO is a bad thing and would lead to No new / better training through others ideas and companies.

I can see it now, No Mr."othername training program" you can not use a weave pattern in your class, or you can not ride over a 2*4 or any do fast stops ect ect


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post #10 of 14 Old Dec 21st, 2006, 8:03 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petevandyke
Re-read the article, gentlemen (and ladies).

MSF said cease and desist promoting your course, which you are MAKING MONEY on, as being sanctioned by MSF (which it ain't), and the university basically said "make us" so they are.
So, before you slam MSF--which in MY humble opinion does a LOAD of good but does have a couple areas in which they may be deserving of slamming--re-read the article again.

Specifically:

The suit seeks to permanently enjoin the defendants from using the Team Oregon BRT, or any other product that infringes upon the MSF's copyrights, as well as from marketing or offering the Team Oregon BRT to other states or entities, and from making false endorsements.


They ain't suing because someone is teaching the same kind of exercises, they are suing because a major-league institution is claiming that the MSF endorses what they are doing, when they don't, which is not only a liability issue, but is downright wrong.

It would be like ol' Grif and I offering a weekend mechanics class, based on repairing lawnmower engines, and handing out diplomas that had the BMW logo and "Harvard University" and telling people who shelled out thousands that they are now officially certified "BMW Motorcycle Technicians."

(now, if we told them they were Honda certified techs, no one would complain...but that's another thread)



Pete
I would like to see more of this to be sure that Oregon actually said MSF endorses them

but if true you are correct and my last post is invalid, unless they actually do sue to stop using similar or same exercises as well

(I bet they do) there had been talk at a state meeting I went to years back of the same thing, someone was using similar courses and they wanted it stopped.

Actually I guess I can not blame them since they invested so much into this when it was not very profitable, now that it is profitable everyone wants in on the bandwagon.

Shoot I would to, and if GA. allowed privately owned MSF training facility to be able to get your MC endorsement (like FL does),
I would have long ago opened up a facility here.

Merry Christmas All

Tom

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post #11 of 14 Old Dec 21st, 2006, 4:33 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petevandyke
Re-read the article, gentlemen (and ladies).

MSF said cease and desist promoting your course, which you are MAKING MONEY on, as being sanctioned by MSF (which it ain't), and the university basically said "make us" so they are.

I ran the Northwestern University/Harley Davidson Police Motorcycle program for just under seven years...the ONLY factory-sponsored program in existence. There was a, pardon the vernacular, world-class asshole cop in Indiana who was teaching our two-week program in a four-day format, and advertising it as "officially sponsored by Northwestern AND Harley."

I called the guy, didn't tell him who I was or where I was from, asked him "so, is this an official Northwestern University class?"

The guy replied "yes, we're one of only TWO sites in the world that are licensed to provide this training by Northwestern and Harley Davidson..." and then dropped the name of the then director of Police and Fleet Sales at H-D, saying "John so-and-so from Harley's Police Division even provides the motorcycles for our program."

Biting my lip to keep from laughing (we did not have ANY "licensed sites" for our training AND he was using a condensed version of training we had abandoned and revised twice in the TEN YEARS since he stole it) I then asked "wow, so, if I come there, do I get an actual NORTHWESTERN UNIVERSITY diploma?"

He said "yes, indeed, you do, and it also has the official stamp of Harley-Davidson"

Now, Northwestern University is a fortune FIFTY corporation with an operating budget in the billions, with it's own law school, and a "legal division" full of pitbulls, but that's NOTHING compared to "The Motor Company's" legal rottweilers. Yet letters from both entities to this clown AND to the police department that was sanctioning his training by letting him use their property (and thus, exposing them to liability in case of injury, etc.) wasn't even enough to stop the bootleg training...it was the guy's passing away from cancer a number of months later that finally, pardon the unfortunate juxtaposition of words here, killed his program.

So, before you slam MSF--which in MY humble opinion does a LOAD of good but does have a couple areas in which they may be deserving of slamming--re-read the article again.

Specifically:

The suit seeks to permanently enjoin the defendants from using the Team Oregon BRT, or any other product that infringes upon the MSF's copyrights, as well as from marketing or offering the Team Oregon BRT to other states or entities, and from making false endorsements.


They ain't suing because someone is teaching the same kind of exercises, they are suing because a major-league institution is claiming that the MSF endorses what they are doing, when they don't, which is not only a liability issue, but is downright wrong.

It would be like ol' Grif and I offering a weekend mechanics class, based on repairing lawnmower engines, and handing out diplomas that had the BMW logo and "Harvard University" and telling people who shelled out thousands that they are now officially certified "BMW Motorcycle Technicians."

(now, if we told them they were Honda certified techs, no one would complain...but that's another thread)



Pete
Good points made it clearer understanding for me. I taught both the RSS and now BRC. I like the new. Easier to teach. I found that person get the same training with new as in the old.
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post #12 of 14 Old Dec 21st, 2006, 11:51 pm
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The MSF and Team Oregon have been fighting for years. It seems this is just the latest skirmish.

What I've read is that Team Oregon disagrees with the MSF's new programs, and at some point decided to develop their own program. How much is based on the older MSF program I'm not sure, but at some point the basic skills needed are the same regardless of who's outline you're following. I do know that Team Oregon has been recognized several times for the quality of their programs.

It seems that as the MSF has grown, it's gotten much more political, and developed much closer ties with the manufacturers. Some folks feel like the new curriculum is dumbed down so that more riders pass, hence increasing the sales base for the manufacturers. Also, it seems fairly clear that the MSF is fighting to take over every state program, with Oregon being one of the few holdouts (possible the only one).

My girlfriend took the MSF training here in California many years ago, and it was tough. It was run by a couple ex-marines, who were fine if you did the exercises correctly the first time. But they had no clue on how to recognize what difficulties individual students were having, or how to coach them through it. She failed the riding portion and had to retake it on another day. The instructors did let me work with her on difficult exercises, which she was able to pass with my help. When we finally got her on the street, we stayed on small side roads and I worked with her quite a bit until she could handle more.

I'd rather all the training groups focused on the quality of their own programs rather than who may have copied who, or who controls who, but sadly, that isn't the world we live in.

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post #13 of 14 Old Dec 22nd, 2006, 5:14 pm
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Careful, Ken! You keep saying things like that and people might start to think you make sense! Ruin a perfectly good reputation!

As a point of information, Wyoming, Idaho, and possibly Washington were all waiting to see what happened between Oregon and MSF. They were looking, very seriously, at Oregon's program. I became 'interested' in the situation when I tried to get ERC classes both at Breckenridge and Jackson Hole.

I have been aware of what MSF seems to be trying to do for several years. The appearance is that they are 'franchising' the rights to authenticate their classes to a single entity in each state.

I will not publicly speculate on the truth of either side, nor on the quality of the various programs, nor the quality of the graduates of said programs. Right now, I just feel that the situation is not beneficial to either group, or to motorcycling, in general. It creates another set of 'factions' in the sport, and we can ill afford anything but a united front!

Just my .02 and not worth that.

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post #14 of 14 Old Dec 22nd, 2006, 5:30 pm
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politics

I do think the MSF has become a political entity. That said, my .02 on the new vs old curriculum (I taught under the old, coached under the new, retired when I moved to the country

I liked the new course for an number of reasons, one of which was it was easier to set up (not as many cones) and another the fact that it treated the students like adults. I hated the straddle walk and 'push your partner' sessions, new students can ride a mc across a range if they can ride a bicycle.

Anyhow, neither course is/was designed to put out a fully functional, ready for the road, rider.

My '02, the wife just called, said to get me butt off the computer!

Merry Christmas to all!

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