"The Ultimate Driving Machine" ONLY means 2-wheel varieties - BMW Luxury Touring Community
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post #1 of 74 Old Oct 21st, 2006, 2:56 pm Thread Starter
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"The Ultimate Driving Machine" ONLY means 2-wheel varieties

OK, this isn't totally "Bike" related, although I really wish I had been on my motor 2 days ago because I'd be a lot happier right now.

Thursday morning, 7:18 am, stretch of road that NEVER has any traffic, turned out to be blocked off for 2 miles because of a fatal accident that occurred at the same intersection 20 mins earlier...I dropped the cell phone I was plugging in after popping on my bluetooth headset, reached down to grab it, looked up and saw nothing but the back of a 97 Ford Explorer. Brake pedal to the floor and WHAM. Yep, absolutely, totally my fault.

Explorer's driver popped out, calling paramedics, peeked at the relatively minor damage to the back of his vehicle (I later learned from a cop on scene that his car bumped one in front who bumped one in front of that, no damage to the other two and THANK GOD, no one else was hurt.

My knee was screaming from impacting the dashboard next to and below the steering wheel. Forehead a little sore from impacting the steering wheel. Everything from mid-torso up already stiff and in excrutiating pain. Driver I hit says to me "Wow, you hit me HARD..."as I focused my eyes momentarily out the windshield, all I saw was my hood in a 45-degree angle, mumbled back "yeah, no kidding, are you ok?" before fading out again.

Medics c-collared me, extricated me with a backboard, x-rays and ct scans came up negative, but I feel like I've gotten my ass kicked.

Interesting thing...prior to Thursday, I'd wear my seatbelt maybe 30% of the time, something made me put it on that morning.

More interesting, as you look at the pics, none, NONE of the airbags (steering wheel, passenger dash, or either front curtains) deployed, so I am looking for an atty, as this was a HARD, dead center impact.

I am now convinced to wear my seatbelt, and the bruised chest and soft-tissue damage is a good trade for what I can imagine what would have happened otherwise.

Be safe, my friends.

Pete




(PS, Hey Griff, care to take a crack at fixin' it, I have a killer set of Sam's Club tools! Also, anyone need a BMW 6-disk changer? I pulled it before the insurance adjustors got to it...see classifieds)
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post #2 of 74 Old Oct 21st, 2006, 3:47 pm
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Ouch

Glad you are mainly okay - we have all done something similar and some have even got away with it - not me though ;-(

Hope you have a speedy recovery and are the headlights HID?http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/newreply...te=1&p=117829#
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post #3 of 74 Old Oct 21st, 2006, 4:26 pm
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Glad you are basically ok. Would sue BMW for no airbag deployment.
It does sucks when a car hits an SUV. A lady totaled her Nissan on the back of my wife's Blazer. Scratched the Blazer bumper. No other damage.
I always wear a seatbelt when I ride or drive in a cage. Those things make me nervous (cages not the belts).
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post #4 of 74 Old Oct 21st, 2006, 5:01 pm
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Looking at the photos I think I see why the airbags didn't deploy. The bumper didn't take any of the hit and I believe that is where the sensors are located that deploy the bags. ??? Glad your okay!!!

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post #5 of 74 Old Oct 21st, 2006, 6:19 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petevandyke
(PS, Hey Griff, care to take a crack at fixin' it, I have a killer set of Sam's Club tools!
Sam's Club? I'm thinking golf clubs.... and a torch. Man, I'm glad you wasn't in a Kia or one of them other little cars.

I second not contacting the bumper being the reason the airbags didn't go off. You might have never needed to shave again if it had been a pickup with a lift.

Now, quit dicking around and go get you a nice, convertible 6 series.



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post #6 of 74 Old Oct 21st, 2006, 6:45 pm
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Glad to hear you are basically ok. I guy i work with just rear ended someone and his airbags never went off either. He drives an Altima but from waht he says the car is totalled. Whats up with that?

Luckily no one was seriously injuried. Drive Safe.

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post #7 of 74 Old Oct 21st, 2006, 8:51 pm Thread Starter
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thanks, everyone.

If you look closely, the front bumper took enough impact to tear off the top 1/4 of it on one side(see below)--PLUS all of the damage just beyond.

And regardless of precisely where the sensors were placed, with enough impact to tilt the inline-6 engine after impact (and yes, those used to be HID lamps), I don't give a sh** about any counter-argument of "well, the bumper didn't directly impact blablabla..." the bags should have gone off...when you go from 20mph to zero instantaneously, that should be enough to overcome the magnet holding the ball bearing in the sensor tube and cause the ball bearing to roll and complete the switch.

Nonetheless, I can barely move today, discovered the hard way this morning that I may also have a broken wrist, but am grateful as HELL that no one else was injured. That's a trade I'm willing to make.

And Griff...that there is alu-min-i-um, does your toolbag include an oxygen free welding environment?


P
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post #8 of 74 Old Oct 21st, 2006, 9:04 pm
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Before spending $$ on a 'land shark', may be worth it to get the deployment specs on that Air Bag system. Or cash in on your retainer and let the Lawyer do definitive research. Quickie look 'round found this bit of info:

Quote:
Air bags are typically designed to deploy in frontal and near-frontal collisions, which are comparable to hitting a solid barrier at approximately 8 to 14 miles per hour (mi/h) (13 to 23 km/h). Roughly speaking, a 14 mi/h (23 km/h) barrier collision is equivalent to striking a parked car of similar size across the full front of each vehicle at about 28 mi/h (45 km/h).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbag#...ing_conditions

Could well be that 20mph into rear of a stopped car is considered insufficient to deploy an air bag. Lack of deployment is likely not a failure, but could well be by design. Those steering wheel bombs carry a lot of their own energy. Deployment could very well have caused more injury than a 'low speed' impact. It's a dice roll.

In any case - way glad you're OK!

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post #9 of 74 Old Oct 21st, 2006, 9:25 pm
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I don't know why there was no "deploy"... I wonder if somehow when it was serviced they disabled the airbags and forgot to re-enable? Worth askin'....

Glad you're okay!

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post #10 of 74 Old Oct 21st, 2006, 9:43 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewuff
Looking at the photos I think I see why the airbags didn't deploy. The bumper didn't take any of the hit and I believe that is where the sensors are located that deploy the bags. ??? Glad your okay!!!
The sensors on most BMW cars are back in the car, on both of mine they are mounted on the drive shaft tunnel under the rear seats.

I think the main reason they did not deploy is because of the stupid high bumpers on the SUV hitting mainly sheet metal that folded up, not transmitting enough decelleration to the body. If the hit had been lower, and hit at leas the front of the engine, I feel sure the air bags would have been set off.

It takes a pretty sharp spike in decelleration to set off air bag sensors. I think his decelleration was a lot more linear, without the sharp spike needed to be sensed properly.

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post #11 of 74 Old Oct 21st, 2006, 9:49 pm Thread Starter
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sure felt like a spike to me!

lol.....oh, ouch, shit, owww, it hurts to laugh

(PS, it's a 2002 530i errrr, it was....now it's a BMW taco supreme)

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post #12 of 74 Old Oct 21st, 2006, 10:00 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petevandyke
And Griff...that there is alu-min-i-um, does your toolbag include an oxygen free welding environment?


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post #13 of 74 Old Oct 21st, 2006, 10:30 pm
 
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I don't know dude, you might end up being glad the AB didn't fire off. If you were bending down to grab the cell and the AB deployed it probably would have broken your neck at the angle I imagine your neck shoulder and head were creating there. Those things deliver with mucho gusto!

When the AB deployed in my Audi it slammed my right hand into my chest so hard it dislocated my index finger and thumb, sprained my wrist and bruised two ribs. I wouldn't want it deploying into my head at close range.

I know in my LR3 that the AB is deactivated when there isn't enough weight in the seat to consitute an adult. It may have been by design. Not that they engineer in the "rear end collision whilst picking up dropped cell phone" effect.

Glad you're ok. Count your blessings before you submit your sacrifice to the gods of litigation.
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post #14 of 74 Old Oct 22nd, 2006, 6:04 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petevandyke
OK, this isn't totally "Bike" related, although I really wish I had been on my motor 2 days ago because I'd be a lot happier right now.

Thursday morning, 7:18 am, stretch of road that NEVER has any traffic, turned out to be blocked off for 2 miles because of a fatal accident that occurred at the same intersection 20 mins earlier...I dropped the cell phone I was plugging in after popping on my bluetooth headset, reached down to grab it, looked up and saw nothing but the back of a 97 Ford Explorer. Brake pedal to the floor and WHAM. Yep, absolutely, totally my fault.

Explorer's driver popped out, calling paramedics, peeked at the relatively minor damage to the back of his vehicle (I later learned from a cop on scene that his car bumped one in front who bumped one in front of that, no damage to the other two and THANK GOD, no one else was hurt.

My knee was screaming from impacting the dashboard next to and below the steering wheel. Forehead a little sore from impacting the steering wheel. Everything from mid-torso up already stiff and in excrutiating pain. Driver I hit says to me "Wow, you hit me HARD..."as I focused my eyes momentarily out the windshield, all I saw was my hood in a 45-degree angle, mumbled back "yeah, no kidding, are you ok?" before fading out again.

Medics c-collared me, extricated me with a backboard, x-rays and ct scans came up negative, but I feel like I've gotten my ass kicked.

Interesting thing...prior to Thursday, I'd wear my seatbelt maybe 30% of the time, something made me put it on that morning.

More interesting, as you look at the pics, none, NONE of the airbags (steering wheel, passenger dash, or either front curtains) deployed, so I am looking for an atty, as this was a HARD, dead center impact.

I am now convinced to wear my seatbelt, and the bruised chest and soft-tissue damage is a good trade for what I can imagine what would have happened otherwise.

Be safe, my friends.

Pete
right over he bumber, that is why there is so much damage, the car stil did it;s job, it crushed and took the brunt of the impact force, cool! beter than you having serious injury!, about 90 i hit the back of a PU truck with a 89 cavalier, the car was totalled , all of us had seat belts on, no one was hurt care looked like a scene from animal house (beer can squished into head)

and this is where you say,. i'm GLAD i was not on the bike, (who knows what could have happened)

(glad yer ok!!!!!!)

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post #15 of 74 Old Oct 22nd, 2006, 6:13 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petevandyke
thanks, everyone.

If you look closely, the front bumper took enough impact to tear off the top 1/4 of it on one side(see below)--PLUS all of the damage just beyond.

And regardless of precisely where the sensors were placed, with enough impact to tilt the inline-6 engine after impact (and yes, those used to be HID lamps), I don't give a sh** about any counter-argument of "well, the bumper didn't directly impact blablabla..." the bags should have gone off...when you go from 20mph to zero instantaneously, that should be enough to overcome the magnet holding the ball bearing in the sensor tube and cause the ball bearing to roll and complete the switch.

Nonetheless, I can barely move today, discovered the hard way this morning that I may also have a broken wrist, but am grateful as HELL that no one else was injured. That's a trade I'm willing to make.

And Griff...that there is alu-min-i-um, does your toolbag include an oxygen free welding environment?


P

so now i wonder what speed the sensors are actually activated at, I know at one point this was looked into heavily by manufactures as so many low speed accident were causing pretty serious injury from air bags, so it may take 25mph for them to set off or something these days, I remember hitting a curb setting off air bags and sending people into the hospital.

yes I see your engine cocked , but remember it is in a rubber motor mount which does not take much to break the rubber isolator and once that is broke it could easily snap a bolt (they are small) the point is, it does not take much to snap off engine and trans mounts, in fact it is part of the design of many vehicles, so the engine/ trans will actually break loose from the vehicle and not come into he passenger compartment and cause bodily injury (although Chrysler screwed up on their design for a while and he engines would snap off list and sit right in your lap )(AKA NOT GOOD)

disclaimer - (i have been away from all this for a while now so i could be partially wrong about the sensors working in conjunction with speed)

Tom

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post #16 of 74 Old Oct 22nd, 2006, 6:18 am
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"....and regardless of precisely where the sensors were placed, with enough impact to tilt the inline-6 engine after impact (and yes, those used to be HID lamps), I don't give a sh** about any counter-argument of "well, the bumper didn't directly impact blablabla..." the bags should have gone off...when you go from 20mph to zero instantaneously...."

Having "worked" a crash or two in my day, 20 MPH in a vehicle of that size is not fast enough to set off the bags. That aside, you are/were driving a very safe vehicle.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #17 of 74 Old Oct 22nd, 2006, 6:20 am
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Originally Posted by backpain
I don't know dude, you might end up being glad the AB didn't fire off. If you were bending down to grab the cell and the AB deployed it probably would have broken your neck at the angle I imagine your neck shoulder and head were creating there. Those things deliver with mucho gusto!

When the AB deployed in my Audi it slammed my right hand into my chest so hard it dislocated my index finger and thumb, sprained my wrist and bruised two ribs. I wouldn't want it deploying into my head at close range.

I know in my LR3 that the AB is deactivated when there isn't enough weight in the seat to consitute an adult. It may have been by design. Not that they engineer in the "rear end collision whilst picking up dropped cell phone" effect.

Glad you're ok. Count your blessings before you submit your sacrifice to the gods of litigation.
Yup you could be very well right, also at 25 mph or less he should have been able to brace himself, that is if he was not bent over, also that would effect the usefulness of the seat belt, so that would not even matter if it was adjusted properly for the driver, which I thought of as I read that at first, seat belts are designed to work with a occupant seated upright period.

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post #18 of 74 Old Oct 22nd, 2006, 9:15 am Thread Starter
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adding to the fodder

this post, which was meant to be a "please don't be a part-time seat belt wearer like I used to be" post" gets more and more interesting.

I was FULLY upright at the point of impact, the seat belt that I for some reason put on that morning (one of five trips I would before this, I admit) did its job, as the now emerging linear bruise from my left shoulder down attests to, I did indeed brace for impact as the ridiculous muscle soreness in my left triceps muscle supports, and as soon as I finish this I am heading back to the hospital for xrays on my left wrist because I now can't even squeeze toothpaste with it.

I couldn't estimate my speed at impact...maybe 20 mph, not sure--posted speed limit was 35 and for once in my life (maybe the same karma influence that caused me to buckle up that mornin') I was driving less than the posted limit that morning. If you look at the pics, the driver-side bumper did have impact, as well as everything above the bumper line.

Oh, went back Saturday, two days later, and there was debris left on the side, but no skid marks, so the ABS system worked nicely, but the airbag system didn't...

Here's an interesting shot from the interior...the impact was harsh enough to cause this part of trim to become permanently detached on the passenger side, the only evidence from the interior that ANYTHING happened.

and the thread goes on...


(many thanks for all who have given me well-wishes thru the post, it means a LOT to me)


Pete
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post #19 of 74 Old Oct 22nd, 2006, 9:32 am
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First of all, glad you are (relatively) okay.
PAY ATTENTION NEXT TIME! :-) (lecture over)

I doubt the impact you experienced was sufficient to deploy the airbag. Remember, it's not the speed you are (were) travelling, it's the rate of deceleration. It looks like the hood and upper sections of the fenders absorbed most of the impact, and actually slowed the vehicle gradually enough to prevent airbag deployment. I know it seemed like a pretty substantial stop, but had you hit something like a bridge support dead straight on at that speed, the car would have stopped a lot more quickly, and the airbags most likely would have deployed at that time.

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post #20 of 74 Old Oct 22nd, 2006, 9:55 am
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Hmm.. well, I just wonder if the "engineers" at BMW will say the "retraint system" worked "as designed".

The "restraint system" is airbags AND seat belt.

Seems there are several good points here. The seat belts were all that was necessary for that deceleration "event"... no need for bag deployment.

All the "crash" tests are against "bumper" to object impacts I see on TV...the airbags deploy quite nicely.

In November 1979 I had a similar crash with a Ford F-150... the front bumper of my car was almost unscathed... never touched the truck due to the "nose dive" on my Buick Skylark (Nova). No ABS, no Airbags.. just a seatbelt which I always wore... and still do...

In that accident, the nose dove, the car turned to the right (no ABS), and the impact twisted the frame so that I could nearly put my arm between the drivers door frame and the car roof. There was much more damage.... I pushed the brake pedal permanenetly to the floor and the steering wheel into the dash.

I hit him around 50 mph.

I was sore for 2 weeks. Will never forget it.

Yup.. I think the car worked properly... Glad you're here to learn from it..

...............
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post #21 of 74 Old Oct 22nd, 2006, 10:16 am
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Glad you're OK Pete. To coin a phrase, any crash you can call a lawyer after is a a good one.

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post #22 of 74 Old Oct 22nd, 2006, 11:00 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmgs
so now i wonder what speed the sensors are actually activated at, I know at one point this was looked into heavily by manufactures as so many low speed accident were causing pretty serious injury from air bags, so it may take 25mph for them to set off or something these days, -----------------------------------------------
Airbag sensors are not speed sensitive. They are calibrated to go off at a certain decelleration rate which can be achieved at pretty low speeds.

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post #23 of 74 Old Oct 24th, 2006, 3:36 pm
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tmgs wrote in part, " ...also at 25 mph or less he should have been able to brace himself, that is if he was not bent over, also that would effect the usefulness of the seat belt, so that would not even matter if it was adjusted properly for the driver, which I thought of as I read that at first, seat belts are designed to work with a occupant seated upright period."

HUH? I doubt that the incredible hulk could brace himself adequately in a 25 mph crash! In this instance, it appears from what I have read, that the car did it's job thanks to the superior design of the E 39 car in conjunction with seat belt usage. Airbags are triggered at from 8 to 14 mph as said by someone else. The car might have decelerated to within that range prior to impact or the car in front may have been rolling forward at the time of impact. Seat belts work when used properly. Airbags provide supplemental protection in frontal crashes. They do not replace seat belts.

I'm glad to hear the injuries were relatively minor.
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post #24 of 74 Old Oct 24th, 2006, 3:58 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ben1364
---------------- Airbags are triggered at from 8 to 14 mph as said by someone else. ------------------------.
Do you have any technical source for that information? I designed machinery once (about 16 years ago) for manufacturing air bag explosive initiators, and in that involvement learned a lot about the air bag systems. At that time, the sensors were strictly decelleration rate sensors, and had absolutely no tie in to the speed of the vehicle. They triggered when the CHANGE in speed/time is greater than a calculated set point. The early ones were simply a ball in a tube, with a magnet at one end, the sensor contacts at the other. If the RATE of decelleration was great enough the ball would become detached from the magnet, then overcome the air trapped between it and the contacts. If the decelleration rate did not last long enough, the ball would not get the air pushed out of the way before the rate decreased, and would be pulled back to the magnet, not setting off the airbags. So the Decelleration RATE had to be high enough, and LAST for a specific time period.

I am sure the sensors have likely become far "less simple" now, especially since the advent of side and head airbags, which need to sense decelleration/accelleration from different angles, not just the basically head on impact that the early systems were made for. I know the new side air bags will go off if the car is hit hard enough from the side, even if the car is not moving.

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post #25 of 74 Old Oct 24th, 2006, 4:29 pm
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The beauty of our legal system(from a lawyers perspective) is that you can sue if the airbag doesn't go off or if it does go off, injuries either way. And of course every suit that's filed just increases the cost of all cars for all of us. I do not understand the mentality of I make a mistake so someone else has to pay. We are truly a nation of victims. What happened to I'm glad I'm not badly hurt and taking personal responsibilty for one's actions?? With the present legal environment in this country I can fully understand companies moving overseas. Rant #124

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post #26 of 74 Old Oct 25th, 2006, 2:12 pm Thread Starter
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Update

Spoke with an accident reconstructionist who explained that the sensors don't react based on speed of impact or the energy of the impact, but the rate of decelleration, or "delta v" as he referred to it. He basically said that had my bumper not dipped under full braking and popped the other vehicle's bumper, POOF would have gone the bags. Because the impact went from hood to lights to bracing to radiator to tubes to fans to various plastic to engine an mounts, it wouldn't have resulted in a "delta v" that would hit the threshold of 200 miliseconds (most likely what the system would have been set at)...which is one helluva short timeframe, hence, no POOF.

Here's where things SUCK...

Friday, I discovered the hard way when I flexed my wrist while holding a glass that I have something VERY wrong with my left wrist. I had both hands on the wheel at impact, my left triceps has a small tear, and I am typing in a cast on my left wrist and arm, having undergone an MRI yesterday. IF the particular bone they are afraid of is broken (won't know for two days), I have two options, 8 weeks in a full arm cast then another mRI to see if it healed--if not, surgery to put a screw in it, or surgery in a week to put a screw in it. Option B would be my choice.

The scafoid bone (spelling?) has it's own blood supply, so if it's broken, it could constrict or sever the blood vessel and that would result in the bone dying, a bad thing.

So, I REALLY friggin wish that I wasn't on the brakes so hard, so that the bags would have blown my hands off the steering wheel, because the way I had my hands on it--I might have had some bruising, but I wouldn't be looking at surgery or the possibility of maybe not riding again.


Oh, to top things off, the insurance company adjuster called yesterday pm, and said, no shit, "I looked at your car, and I only estimate $9,000 in damages, so we're not inclined to total it out. We can take it to a shop for a tear-down to see if there is additional damage, where do you want it taken to?"


$9,000? I told him I insist it go to a BMW dealership, once they tell him each friggin screw has to come with a $540 attached part, the estimate to repair it will be $345,000.

I hope


Pete

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post #27 of 74 Old Oct 25th, 2006, 2:34 pm
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Cool The fine art of crashing and getting over it........

Quote:
Originally Posted by petevandyke
Spoke with an accident reconstructionist ............
Here's where things SUCK...

Friday, I discovered the hard way when I flexed my wrist while holding a glass that I have something VERY wrong with my left wrist. ...............
The scafoid bone (spelling?) has it's own blood supply, so if it's broken, it could constrict or sever the blood vessel and that would result in the bone dying, a bad thing.....
Pete,

Thank God you are hear writing to us.

At race schools, I have been taught if impact is unavoidable, let go and let the restraints take the hit, not ankles, wrists, elbows.....

Sure, it's easy to say when you're not in the accident.

My brother in law has now exceeded the life time $1,000,000 cap his company provides for insurance due to multiple surgeries trying to repair hand and arm damage from his bicycle crash into a van. He is back on his BMW R 1100 and rode from Lancaster, PA, to Bay Village, OHIO, this summer with my wife's sis on the back. You will get through this setback. Hang in there.

Rob Nelson

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post #28 of 74 Old Oct 25th, 2006, 2:53 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petevandyke
Spoke with an accident reconstructionist who explained that the sensors don't react based on speed of impact or the energy of the impact, but the rate of decelleration, or "delta v" as he referred to it. -------------------------


Pete
Sure hope you did not pay for that information. I told you that for free.

It is actually Delta V/Time, not just Delta V

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post #29 of 74 Old Oct 25th, 2006, 3:06 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petevandyke
So, I REALLY friggin wish that I wasn't on the brakes so hard, so that the bags would have blown my hands off the steering wheel, because the way I had my hands on it--I might have had some bruising, but I wouldn't be looking at surgery or the possibility of maybe not riding again.
I'm sorry - but shouldn't this be "I'm really friggin sorry that I took my eyes off the road to pick up my cell phone?

Ted

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post #30 of 74 Old Oct 25th, 2006, 5:15 pm Thread Starter
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Thanks, Ted.


Funny thing, dumbass that I am, but when the phone slid between my foot and the accellerator pedal, I figured "gee, maybe I should move this so that I don't get into an accident."

Appreciate the shot, though. Will laugh about it when I sell my bike to pay for my out of pocket expenses.

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post #31 of 74 Old Oct 25th, 2006, 7:58 pm
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Sounds like Shealey nailed it once again.

Heal well, Pete. The vehicle can always be replaced.

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post #32 of 74 Old Oct 26th, 2006, 10:49 pm Thread Starter
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Update

Nationwide insurance still says "only $9,000 in damage..." the bmw dealership is tearing into the car tomorrow for a better look, for those who are following my pathetic little soap opera, I'll let you know what THEY say the damage really is.

Well, the wrist is broken, but not the scafoid bone or however it's spelled, so I am not facing surgery on that (or the potential for a life-threatening condition if the bone slipped---who would have thunk it?), will have to see what the docs say wednesday on my spinal injuries.

David, the shop manager at dallas' classic BMW said that no current production BMW has airbag triggers mounted "in the center" as your post listed, showed me on the 3, 5 and 7's where on the front bumper they are, and where the cross sensors are for the side impact triggers...I guess you got two supercars...and no, I didn't pay for the info I posted, it was from a guy who used to work for me as a motorcycle trainer who also is a reconstructionist...and he replied that the term "linear" doesn't exist in that lexicon, because you can have a high velocity linear decelleration (meaning "at the same rate") that would pop a bag...it's when the decelleration rate declines in more of a sine wave-type drop off, as mine did, because my forward momentum was slowed by the crumpling of my hood, then my lighting, then my radiator, then my fan, then my various plastic parts, then my engine being blown off it's mounts...that kept the computer from deciding to trigger the system. And you don't have to pay me for that one, or him.

Ted, I hope I'm taking your post the wrong way and that you didn't mean it the way I read it, because if that was a shot, it was a cheap one. I've been down on the bike twice, in three auto accidents (this is the first time it was my fault), been shot at, had my ass kicked more times than I could count, and have spent the last 20 years training in the martial arts, the last 12 teaching federal agents, military personnel and cops how to do really nasty things to the human body under the most adverse circumstances. And I've fought two inoperable brain tumors successfully for four years now. Which qualifies me to say "I am a pretty tough guy." Yet I've cried not once but three times from the pain of this experience and the testing I've been through in the last 6 days, so much so during my MRI that the tech thought he made a mistake and had put a wet sheet on the headrest cover. So if your post wasn't a shot, I am glad. But if it was meant as a dig, as though to say that I earned it for plugging in and subsequently dropping a cell phone, then I am very sorry you felt the need to post that.

For everyone else, thank you for the well wishes and thoughts and perhaps prayers. May NONE of you ever have to experience any of this.

Pete

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post #33 of 74 Old Oct 27th, 2006, 12:58 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petevandyke
Ted, I hope I'm taking your post the wrong way and that you didn't mean it the way I read it, because if that was a shot, it was a cheap one. I've been down on the bike twice, in three auto accidents (this is the first time it was my fault), been shot at, had my ass kicked more times than I could count, and have spent the last 20 years training in the martial arts, the last 12 teaching federal agents, military personnel and cops how to do really nasty things to the human body under the most adverse circumstances. And I've fought two inoperable brain tumors successfully for four years now. Which qualifies me to say "I am a pretty tough guy." Yet I've cried not once but three times from the pain of this experience and the testing I've been through in the last 6 days, so much so during my MRI that the tech thought he made a mistake and had put a wet sheet on the headrest cover. So if your post wasn't a shot, I am glad. But if it was meant as a dig, as though to say that I earned it for plugging in and subsequently dropping a cell phone, then I am very sorry you felt the need to post that.
Pete - since you asked - this accident happened because you took your eyes off the road to pick up your cell phone. I have a real problem with that. Luckily the person you hit wasn't hurt. Luckily they were not sitting on a motorcycle. It scares me that people who should know better do what you did. It scares me that making or receiving calls on your cell phone is more important than your safety or the safety of others.

Quite frankly I've given you more thought than you have given others. You seem to be on borrowed time, so make the most of it, but please don't take anybody with you.

Ted

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post #34 of 74 Old Oct 27th, 2006, 10:05 am Thread Starter
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OK, Ted, You had your say, here's mine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted
Pete - since you asked - this accident happened because you took your eyes off the road to pick up your cell phone. I have a real problem with that. Luckily the person you hit wasn't hurt. Luckily they were not sitting on a motorcycle. It scares me that people who should know better do what you did. It scares me that making or receiving calls on your cell phone is more important than your safety or the safety of others.

Quite frankly I've given you more thought than you have given others. You seem to be on borrowed time, so make the most of it, but please don't take anybody with you.


Hmmmm OK, Ted, let's have at it a bit here.

First off, you obviously haven't bothered to read the posts, or you'd know that i wasn't making a phone call.

Second, your comment suggesting that I would take the safety of myself or others less seriously than making a phone call is bullshit, plain and simple...I wasn't making a phone call, and I've devoted more time (volunteer and professional) to enhancing others' safety than you have to any single activity you can name, I'll bet.

As to your "you seem to be living on borrowed time," here's my response to you, my friend, or as one could call it, time to call the kettle black.

A brief review of YOUR BMWLT.com forum posts the last few months, Mr. Glass House:



October 7, 06
you share with the forum about how you went a week without wearing riding gear because it was too hot (hmmm, sounds like not taking one's own safety into consideration...)

October 05
You discuss how you shoot raccoons with "subsonic .22 bullets" from INSIDE YOUR HOUSE...the same house your profile says you share with three children. Now Ol' Camarillo, California on your profile looks pretty urban on my google satellite view, and I know how .22's can travel through soft tissue, and how they react to bone, so I'm thinking that unless before you're plinking raccoons, firing your weapon that may be illegal in California from IN THE house, SURELY you have relocated your family miles away, and you MUST have your entire homestead surrounded by a gigantic dirt enclosure to ensure that one of your shots doesn't travel beyond it's intended target and into someone else's property, because that wouldn't be thinking about others' safety...and firing a weapon INSIDE the house surely wouldn't send the right message to your children, would it?

Sept 7, 06
You add suggestions for participation in the Iron Butt rally. Now, "driving while tired" has been proven in multiple federally-funded studies to be as negatively-affecting to driver response as alcohol intoxication. I still intend on doing it one day, but hey, you already pointed out that I am living on borrowed time, but why would YOU do such a thing, that's something that could put others at risk???

August 6, 06
You add in a thread about how you initiated a "shouting match" with the driver of a mercedes 500 coupe after you were cut off. Good way to "take the upper road" and we ALL know that no one in Cal-i-for-ni-uh who drives high end mercedes' has handguns, but SOME might think that you, being on a motorcycle and MUCH more vulnerable than someone in a 4,000+ pound car should have acted differently if you were truly concerned with your safety, unlike me as you took the liberty of saying above.

July 06
You added advice on the purchase and use of radar/lidar (lasar speed detector) devices. Now, for someone who so openly and harshly criticizes someone else for doing something that takes their attention off the road, why would you advocate, directly or indirectly, the use of a device that 1)encourages breaking the law and 2) by its nature would REQUIRE a distraction via sound, flashing lights, or a combination, that would HAVE to take the motorcyclists' attention away from the operation of his motorcycle? I can't understand, because you seem to be the self-appointed spokesperson for uninhibited attention...in fact, I imagine you've disabled your intercom system and stereo, just so that you don't have those as potential distractions as well...one who is so critical would simply HAVE to those things, because like plugging in or (gasp) picking up a dropped cell phone, they would DISTRACT you.

May 12, 06
In a thread that discussed a motorcyclist who made a mistake and was injured because he was following too closely behind a car and for whatever reason (lack of training, panic, who knows), screwed up and wasn't able to execute an emergency lane change, you actually posted this:

"thanks for replying - sure hate to pass judgement on someone who is injured but seems like #2 got what he deserved"

So, It's official, you are the ONLY motorcyclist I've ever known who has EVER expressed in an open forum that he or she felt that someone deserved injuries.

May 06
You, the same guy who ripped my ass in your post about how I put others at risk, and am living on borrowed time, and thank goodness no one else was hurt posted that you were in Oregon and engaged in LANE SPLITTING on an ENTRANCE RAMP and were later shocked to learn that it wasn't allowed there, because you were used to California riding.

Well, it's not legal in California, just "not illegal" (see the thousands of threads for that one), but even in California, I can't imagine how passing someone via the technique of lane splitting, even in California, on an ENTRANCE RAMP could be considered a safe practice, when that could certainly surprise, shock, potentially scare someone--and yes, maybe even cause someone startled enough to react in a way that could result in an ACCIDENT.

And how could someone who is so lightning-quick to criticise others have ever in his lifetime NOT known the laws of any and every state he peruses? Gosh, I hope you didn't do that towards the end of one of your iron butt runs when you didn't have your riding gear on because it was too hot, someone might think you were as irresponsible as Pete Van Dyke...putting others at risk and all



Get my point?

Have I done some of the things listed above? YES I HAVE.

Do I openly criticize others, particularly in a way that "kicks them when they are down" when they do it? HELL NO, I DON'T.

I make mistakes, I am human, I am IMPERFECT, I've been called an asshole as recently as yesterday, but I am not a hypocrite...

I'll be in Los Angeles for a Week the end of November if you'd like to meet for a beer, a handshake, and the opportunity for me to say "hey, not everyone agrees on everything, but in the end, we're all 'bikers' and should look out for each other' and you can choose to do the same if you like.

Or, if you'd prefer to smack me in the mouth, that's option two.

But don't go posting bullshit threads in a holier than thou tone when you as "pot" are as black as the "kettle" you're criticising.

There are very few who haven't made mistakes (and if you actually READ my posts in this thread, you may have noticed that I openly and repeatedly stated my responsibility and mistakes, in hopes of helping others--rather than hiding them--I could easily have said "the road was slick and I lost traction and..." and no one would know the difference, but I was hoping my misery would help convince just one more person who was like me before last week--a part-time seat belt wearer--to become a full-time wearer).


Pete

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post #35 of 74 Old Oct 27th, 2006, 10:19 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petevandyke
David, the shop manager at dallas' classic BMW said that no current production BMW has airbag triggers mounted "in the center" as your post listed, showed me on the 3, 5 and 7's where on the front bumper they are, and where the cross sensors are for the side impact triggers...I guess you got two supercars...
If that person told me the sky was blue, I would have to walk outside and check for myself. My two BMWs are not "current production". What does that mean, cars being made TODAY? I just went outside and took pictures of my 1994 525i, and you can certainly see that the airbag sensor is just where I said it was, under the rear seat on top of the drive shaft tunnel. I am pretty sure the main sensor on my 2001 740 is in that vicinity also. There is a seperate sensor for the side impact bags on the 740, I do not know where that is mounted. but sure it is also somewhere in the passenger compartment.

I can just about guarantee that no airbag sensors are mounted "ON THE BUMPER"! They are not interested in the decelleration rate of the bumper, as that can be almost instantaneous even in a relatively minor accident. The engineers are interested in the decelleration rate of the passenger compartment, as that is where the protection is needed.
Quote:
and no, I didn't pay for the info I posted, it was from a guy who used to work for me as a motorcycle trainer who also is a reconstructionist...and he replied that the term "linear" doesn't exist in that lexicon,
I never used the term "linear".
Quote:
because you can have a high velocity linear decelleration (meaning "at the same rate") that would pop a bag...it's when the decelleration rate declines in more of a sine wave-type drop off, as mine did, because my forward momentum was slowed by the crumpling of my hood, then my lighting, then my radiator, then my fan, then my various plastic parts, then my engine being blown off it's mounts...that kept the computer from deciding to trigger the system. And you don't have to pay me for that one, or him.
Why would I pay, I already knew that.
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post #36 of 74 Old Oct 27th, 2006, 10:57 am Thread Starter
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David, I love you like the Uncle I never had who was wayyyyyyyyyy smarter than I'll ever be...but this is what you posted...


The sensors on most BMW cars are back in the car, on both of mine they are mounted on the drive shaft tunnel under the rear seats.

I think the main reason they did not deploy is because of the stupid high bumpers on the SUV hitting mainly sheet metal that folded up, not transmitting enough decelleration to the body. If the hit had been lower, and hit at leas the front of the engine, I feel sure the air bags would have been set off.

It takes a pretty sharp spike in decelleration to set off air bag sensors. I think his decelleration was a lot more linear, without the sharp spike needed to be sensed properly.
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No bike now, but maybe in the future.





you guys are sucking ALL the fun out of ruining my dream car, breaking my wrist at the time of the year when I love riding most, damaging my spine, and racking up bills that might take my motorcycle away...

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post #37 of 74 Old Oct 27th, 2006, 11:33 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petevandyke
David, I love you like the Uncle I never had who was wayyyyyyyyyy smarter than I'll ever be...but this is what you posted...

-----------It takes a pretty sharp spike in decelleration to set off air bag sensors. I think his decelleration was a lot more linear, without the sharp spike needed to be sensed properly.
Yes, I said "more linear", meaning your impact was not a sudden enough "jolt" to cause a very high peak in decelleration, which would have been a big spike in the decelleration curve. Your car decellerated in a "relatively" linear mode due to all the crushable/moveable items soaking up most of the energy. The decelleration you experienced started pretty low with sheet metal crumpling, then rose as harder parts became involved. Probably reached peak just at the end of the action. Had your bumper hit, I feel sure the decelleration rate would have been enough to set off the airbags since there would have been a much sharper peak while the car was moving the fastest. As it was, you were probably lucky the airbags did NOT go off! Airbags can cause a lot of injuries themselves. I was once told that an airbag activation is like being hit by George Forman, using both fists.

I am sure it is a difficult decision for the designers to make determining just where to put the trigger point. They want the airbags to activate somewhere around the point where their activation will not hurt you more than would result if they did not activate. A lot of gray area there.

I am sorry you had the accident, and hope you can get the insurance company on the right track. Hopefully it won't take an attorney to do it. I know how stressful an accident is, and to add worries about getting your vehicle back and replaced to your satisfaction makes it that much worse.
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you guys are sucking ALL the fun out of ruining my dream car, breaking my wrist at the time of the year when I love riding most, damaging my spine, and racking up bills that might take my motorcycle away...[/QUOTE]

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

David Shealey
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post #38 of 74 Old Oct 27th, 2006, 12:31 pm Thread Starter
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like I said, wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy smarter than I'll ever be!

cheers!

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post #39 of 74 Old Oct 27th, 2006, 1:30 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petevandyke
like I said, wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy smarter than I'll ever be!

cheers!
Probably not. I just happen to be pretty well trained in engineering, so these subjects always make me think about them in engineering terms.

You could very well be "smarter" than I, and there are likely things for which I would come to you for answers.

There certainly many people in this group who are highly knowledgeable in many areas, and we have a HUGE knowledge base on so many things. I would not want to compare my overall "smartness" to anyone else here, could be embarrassing.

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

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post #40 of 74 Old Oct 27th, 2006, 2:23 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dshealey
The sensors on most BMW cars are back in the car, on both of mine they are mounted on the drive shaft tunnel under the rear seats.

I think the main reason they did not deploy is because of the stupid high bumpers on the SUV hitting mainly sheet metal that folded up, not transmitting enough decelleration to the body. If the hit had been lower, and hit at leas the front of the engine, I feel sure the air bags would have been set off.

It takes a pretty sharp spike in decelleration to set off air bag sensors. I think his decelleration was a lot more linear, without the sharp spike needed to be sensed properly.
David,
Ed Zachary...my wife turned into the lane of an oncoming vehicle (35mph) and was hit at a 45 degree angle in her Mercedes. The airbag did NOT deploy because the impact at that angle is less than head-on would have been. Crazy sometimes but that's physics! Those "crunch" zones and off line angles really help when you only wear seatbelts...She was wearing her seatbelt so no real injuries.

Side note: The air bag is "supplemental" as in SRS. I take that to mean that seatbelts should always be worn and the air bag only supplements evertything else.

Saw an engineering film on it sometime ago and it is VERY dangerous to rely only on the airbag. Not to mention using a friggin cell phone...
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post #42 of 74 Old Oct 27th, 2006, 11:08 pm Thread Starter
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nah, I "earned" that in May, I guess I need to update it now, according to a couple of these posts perhaps I should include this on the top:

2002 530i..."Can you hear me now?"


(hah, beat you to it!!!)

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post #43 of 74 Old Oct 28th, 2006, 1:20 am
 
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Consider yourself lucky the bag didn't deploy. Know a person who incurred broken nose and facial bone from airbag deployment. Sue yourself, you caused it.
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post #44 of 74 Old Oct 28th, 2006, 4:28 pm Thread Starter
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oh c'mon, you can do better than that...

thanks for the idea, Gary!

Right around noon today I rang my doorbell, then hobbled around the house, through the back door, through the kitchen, past the living room, and opened the front door. Opened it, then reversed the process.

Asked myself "Are you Peter Van Dyke?"

Ran around the other way, replied "Why, yes, I am."

Returned from the reverse trip and removed an envelope from my breast pocket and responded "You've been served, have a nice day."

I'll be appearing in civil court to defend myself against myself the second week of December, which doesn't give me much time to prepare much of a defense, so I'm hoping that I also don't have sufficient time to throw together an adequate attack.

The list of character and expert witnesses is growing rapidly, naturally my wife will be a "hostile witness" for both sides, but Virgin Mobile and Cingular wireless have both agreed to supplement some of the legal fees.

If ONLY Johnnie Cochran were still here...I can see him coming to my rescue against myself with a clever melodramatic performance in front of a jury of twelve, "If yo' ABS don't stop, then yo' airbags won't go pop," followed by Johnnie making his final plea for me on the plaintiff side with "since a cellphone he possessed, he deserves to get hurt like the rest!"

Court TV will cover it from start to finish, as soon as they find an actor ugly enough to play me in a challenging double-role, filming of the hollywood blockbuster will begin, NHTSA has requested that they use my facial image for their crash dummies as a way to re-vamp the old PSA's of the 1990's with the talking "Vince and Larry" crash dummies to raise awareness.

I can only hope that Texas isn't rocked with riots the way it was years ago when the verdict was handed down in the Rodney King trial when this thing comes to an end, because the chances of THIS forum heeding the advice of "can't we all just get along?" are about as likely as BMW unveiling a new 240-hp K2400LT at the next CYCLE WORLD motorcycle show as a late fall release, weighing in at 540 pounds, priced at $4,350 (USD) with built in ZUMO nav, Ohlins, pre-snipped brown wire, custom exhaust, free BAKUP backrest, free-for-life metzeler 880 replacement tires with smart tire, and a new windshield that cannot be fogged or glazed, even with a blowtorch.

Whew, all that sarcasm made me hungry. If I could just find my cell phone, I'd drive somewhere for a bite to eat.....


(on a serious note, I wonder what it's like to be one of your kids, you guys who have chimed in on this thread with such negativity...I can only hope they never get ill or injured or find themselves in an unfortunate situation and come to you for support--unless a lifetime of "too bad for you, you certainly must have done something to deserve it" tempered them....I guess I should be flattered that you took time away from your weekends of going to the local cancer ward to poke fun at leukemia kids for "having such bad genetics" to post......ok, that was sarcasm slipping in again)

I still hope you all stay safe.

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post #45 of 74 Old Oct 28th, 2006, 4:37 pm
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Glad to see that after all that has happened you still possess a good sense of humor! You'll be fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by petevandyke
thanks for the idea, Gary!

Right around noon today I rang my doorbell, then hobbled around the house, through the back door, through the kitchen, past the living room, and opened the front door. Opened it, then reversed the process.

Asked myself "Are you Peter Van Dyke?"

Ran around the other way, replied "Why, yes, I am."

Returned from the reverse trip and removed an envelope from my breast pocket and responded "You've been served, have a nice day."

I'll be appearing in civil court to defend myself against myself the second week of December, which doesn't give me much time to prepare much of a defense, so I'm hoping that I also don't have sufficient time to throw together an adequate attack.

The list of character and expert witnesses is growing rapidly, naturally my wife will be a "hostile witness" for both sides, but Virgin Mobile and Cingular wireless have both agreed to supplement some of the legal fees.

If ONLY Johnnie Cochran were still here...I can see him coming to my rescue against myself with a clever melodramatic performance in front of a jury of twelve, "If yo' ABS don't stop, then yo' airbags won't go pop," followed by Johnnie making his final plea for me on the plaintiff side with "since a cellphone he possessed, he deserves to get hurt like the rest!"

Court TV will cover it from start to finish, as soon as they find an actor ugly enough to play me in a challenging double-role, filming of the hollywood blockbuster will begin, NHTSA has requested that they use my facial image for their crash dummies as a way to re-vamp the old PSA's of the 1990's with the talking "Vince and Larry" crash dummies to raise awareness.

I can only hope that Texas isn't rocked with riots the way it was years ago when the verdict was handed down in the Rodney King trial when this thing comes to an end, because the chances of THIS forum heeding the advice of "can't we all just get along?" are about as likely as BMW unveiling a new 240-hp K2400LT at the next CYCLE WORLD motorcycle show as a late fall release, weighing in at 540 pounds, priced at $4,350 (USD) with built in ZUMO nav, Ohlins, pre-snipped brown wire, custom exhaust, free BAKUP backrest, free-for-life metzeler 880 replacement tires with smart tire, and a new windshield that cannot be fogged or glazed, even with a blowtorch.

Whew, all that sarcasm made me hungry. If I could just find my cell phone, I'd drive somewhere for a bite to eat.....


(on a serious note, I wonder what it's like to be one of your kids, you guys who have chimed in on this thread with such negativity...I can only hope they never get ill or injured or find themselves in an unfortunate situation and come to you for support--unless a lifetime of "too bad for you, you certainly must have done something to deserve it" tempered them....I guess I should be flattered that you took time away from your weekends of going to the local cancer ward to poke fun at leukemia kids for "having such bad genetics" to post......ok, that was sarcasm slipping in again)

I still hope you all stay safe.

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

David Shealey
Dandridge, TN
EX: '01 Black LT, BAT BYKE (Totaled at 110,000 miles)
IBA SS, BB, BBG, 10/10ths.
No bike now, but maybe in the future.

Last edited by dshealey; Oct 28th, 2006 at 6:54 pm.
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post #46 of 74 Old Oct 28th, 2006, 4:53 pm
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[QUOTE=dshealey]Do you have any technical source for that information? I designed machinery once (about 16 years ago) for manufacturing air bag explosive initiators, and in that involvement learned a lot about the air bag systems. At that time, the sensors were strictly decelleration rate sensors, and had absolutely no tie in to the speed of the vehicle. ..."

No I don't have a specific technical source. I am working from memory. I suppose the NHTSA could fill you in. I too would be interested in what you learn.
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post #47 of 74 Old Oct 28th, 2006, 4:56 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petevandyke
Right around noon today I rang my doorbell, then hobbled around the house,
Man, at least you didn't find another guy coming out the back door

That was a great post!



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post #48 of 74 Old Oct 28th, 2006, 5:02 pm
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"I dropped the cell phone I was plugging in after popping on my bluetooth headset, reached down to grab it, looked up and saw nothing but the back of a 97 Ford Explorer. Brake pedal to the floor and WHAM. Yep, absolutely, totally my fault."

As much as I hate to say it, this is clearly driver error. Glad no one was seriously hurt.
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post #49 of 74 Old Oct 28th, 2006, 10:50 pm Thread Starter
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oh, cripes...

Before I rant, Yo, Griff...if there truly WAS a balance of Karma, I'd have discovered another WOMAN coming out of the back door, but that is another post...and my luck SUCKS lately...


=================================


OK, now for the rant...

Can we add a "remedial READING SKILLS for thread readers" to the H.O.W. section, moderators? Please??????



For DOG'S sake, PEOPLE!!!



This was in my first Fu**in' post:

"...Thursday morning, 7:18 am, stretch of road that NEVER has any traffic, turned out to be blocked off for 2 miles because of a fatal accident that occurred at the same intersection 20 mins earlier...I dropped the cell phone I was plugging in after popping on my bluetooth headset, reached down to grab it, looked up and saw nothing but the back of a 97 Ford Explorer. Brake pedal to the floor and WHAM. Yep, absolutely, totally my fault. "


read the last damn sentence, I've never once said that this WASN'T my FAULT.


This was in my second post:


"...Nonetheless, I can barely move today, discovered the hard way this morning that I may also have a broken wrist, but am grateful as HELL that no one else was injured. That's a trade I'm willing to make...."

in other words, saying I was glad that I was the only one hurt from MY MISTAKE...


and in NONE of my posts do I EVER say that I was TALKING ON A CELL PHONE!!! If you bother to actually READ the things, you'll clearly see that I plugged one into a car charger, it fell to the floor next to my accellerator, I reached down to retrieve it which resulted in me losing eye contact and caused me to be the CAUSE of the accident.

NOR have I once presented what I was doing (pulling a cell phone from a potentially dangerous position) as an excuse, nor will I ever...I caused that accident, I regret it, and I am paying for it dearly (the medic actually laughed at me when I refused treatment "until everyone else was treated first" because, as he said "hey, no one else is hurt, man, they're all over there talking and looking at YOU.")


(Now Ponder this...have YOU ever adjusted or selected a destination on your GPS while riding? Have YOU ever looked down to open or close a "J-Peg"-type highway peg that wasn't opening with the tip of your boot toe without looking? Have YOU ever opened your glove box to check the contents--perhaps to retrieve toll money, or change a cd, or whatever--while moving? Have YOU ever tried to read a conventional map, while the bike was moving, maybe on a tank bag? Have YOU ever mounted a cupholder and then used an open face helmet or a modular one, and while riding one-handed actually endulged in a beverage while the bike was moving? Or, have YOU ever had a conversation with a rear seat passenger without the benefit of an intercom system, requiring you to open a face shield, turn your shoulders and head to the back of the bike to speak and to listen? Then ask yourself how much longer those activities...particularly the GPS if mounted above the stingray, reading a paper map, or conducting a conversation examples probably took YOUR attention off the road and whether that was truly longer than MY looking down and grabbing my cell phone took my attention off of the road I was traversing.)


soooooooo, don't be a retard (no offense to the mentally retarded), read the posts fully...or have someone read it to you and explain it before you rip my ass.


Pete "Gee, I wonder WHERE some people get the idea that some BMW riders are snooty" Van Dyke

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post #50 of 74 Old Oct 28th, 2006, 11:58 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petevandyke
read the posts fully...
Noticed I haven't given you any shit? I read the post fully.....

but moved my lips whilst doing so.



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