Deals Gap Video - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 
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post #1 of 33 Old Jul 5th, 2006, 10:16 pm Thread Starter
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Deals Gap Video

http://www.teamposracing.com/video/D...usic-Small.wmv

The leanings of a 1200GS being chased by an 1150 RT (videographers mount) through the twisties of Deals Gap. For those that have ridden it, may it bring back fond memories. For those that havent, notice how they try desperately to ride in the motorcycle only lane between the yellow lines!!

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post #2 of 33 Old Jul 6th, 2006, 5:54 am
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Mount sucks

first Not sure where they got the rig mounted but it is very jittery, I would be very unhappy if that were my camera.
2nd watch the film, how many times did the camera bike cross the line (not on a pass) how many corners did they square off? There are no square corners on the Dragon.
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post #3 of 33 Old Jul 6th, 2006, 7:42 am
 
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Great choice of music for a Doin' the Dragon video. I wasn't overly-impressed with any of the riding I saw, especially the camera man's riding. I didn't see them passing any sportbikes either. Passing cruisers is fairly common place...even for cagers.
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post #4 of 33 Old Jul 6th, 2006, 8:31 am
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Sorry Rock, I watched closely and the camera bike didn't cross the line once other than to pass. To use the whole lane when you have good vision ahead is OK on the Gap. All the guy is doing is creating a good line thru the corners. This looks like a nice steady run to me, nothing extreme in any way.

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post #5 of 33 Old Jul 6th, 2006, 9:44 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmg08057
Sorry Rock, I watched closely and the camera bike didn't cross the line once other than to pass. To use the whole lane when you have good vision ahead is OK on the Gap. All the guy is doing is creating a good line thru the corners. This looks like a nice steady run to me, nothing extreme in any way.
I have made many runs on that stretch of road, I know what he was trying to do, and can see the spots that he got past his level.

Well watch again, closely at
1:06
2:36 maybe*
2:51
3:03
3:38*
3:59 Last pass stayed over line around next bend.
Now this depends on where the camera is on the bike,
right side definitly over
center well give him the benifit on the astriks.
JMO
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post #6 of 33 Old Jul 6th, 2006, 11:57 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmg08057
Sorry Rock, I watched closely and the camera bike didn't cross the line once other than to pass. To use the whole lane when you have good vision ahead is OK on the Gap. All the guy is doing is creating a good line thru the corners. This looks like a nice steady run to me, nothing extreme in any way.
I'll stick my neck out and say that passing on a double-yellow is "extreme". I have done it very, very rarely on long, straight roads where I'm passing farm equipment only. I won't pass a licensed vehicle (car, truck, m/c) or even a bicycle on a double-yellow no matter what the circumstances. Just my approach.

I think passing outside your lane on the Dragon is just plain dumb. If I'm missing something here please help me understand. Seriously.

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post #7 of 33 Old Jul 6th, 2006, 12:04 pm
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Rock

Its an interesting point, but generally I try and stay in the lane wherever, unless overtaking, because its more fun in corners than straights. I will, as my line requires however, use all the lane if necessary/available and on left hand corners, riding close to the center line, I may even be leaning enough that while my tires are in the lane, I overhang into the the other lane occasionally I guess....this requires that you have clear sight enough ahead so your head doesn't get lopped off - you feel comfortable doing this if you are used to watching far enough ahead. In my opinion all that happens is this guy gets close to the center line (the closest at about 1:06) so the line disappears below the bike. After watching closely again, in my opinion, I can't see that his tires ever cross the center even if the mount is on the right.

As for riding beyond himself, again in my opinion, I would take that the best indicator of that, in this video, is if he has numerous corners (everyone's allowed a few I guess per day) where he does significant corrections deep in the corner because he's got it wrong. I didn't see too many of those. Coming out of a corner and having your line take you to the centerline or the edge of the road is nothing, its just smooth, brisk riding...I didn't even see much of that which seems to me to imply he's riding well inside any maximum.

Ahhh, opinions.......

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post #8 of 33 Old Jul 6th, 2006, 12:14 pm
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Howard, since you quote me, I'll reply....yes, passing on yellows is dumb and doing it at the Gap is even dumber....and it can be the topic of an excellent thread is my guess. The discussion I was having with Rock was on issues he had with the guy while not doing the overtaking on the yellows, but riding (or in Rock's eye - attempting to ride) within his lane.

For some people, double yellow line settings are orientated to cars, and since bikes have better acceleration than cars, bikes have more potential leeway for passing. This then is their justification for passing on some double yellow situations. This arguement is usually used purely internally, because it doesn't do to try and justify our actions to others like this :-).

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post #9 of 33 Old Jul 6th, 2006, 1:18 pm
 
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Exclamation Double-Yellow Jeopardy Anonymous

Hello. My nickname is 'messenger13'.


"Hello messenger13."


And yes . . . I am . . . a double-yellow cager passer!
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post #10 of 33 Old Jul 6th, 2006, 1:29 pm
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I'll certainly pass a slow vehicle on a double yellow.... if it is safe to do so. As mentioned, the lengths of the double yellow are set for cages, trucks, and slow moving maroons. If I can see far enough to ascertain getting around safely, I'll do it everytime..... unless the man is behind me.

On the dragon, you can often see thru several curves by looking thru the woods.....
during the winter.



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post #11 of 33 Old Jul 6th, 2006, 1:51 pm
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My .02 worth

I have ridden the Dragon approximately 20x on 6 different trips there while stationed at Ft. Bragg. I rode 3x on my RT, 2x on my K12RS, and once on the HD. I don't care what you are riding, the Gap is a GREAT place to "learn" your curves. If you box it out (and you KNOW that you are squaring them) this is a great place to go. However, a LOT of riders are unaware that they even square off on a curve. This is one of the best things to judge a riders experience on. Actually, there are several Police Departments on both sides of the border that use DG as a training aid for follow thru and "look into your turn" type of techniques. The MST rides behind the new guys and actually GRADES them on their performance.

Now, for the Double Yellow. A motor vehicle according to State Statutes(all states) is a vehicle that is mechanically powered by a combustible engine)...hybrids don't count...

Now, a Registerable Motor Vehicle is one in the same. Motorcycles, cars, trucks, Tractor/trailers, etc. They ALL have to abide by the same law. A double yellow is a double yellow. NO PASSING!!

Look at the annual number of fatalities on Deal's Gap....and then look at the number of fatalities due to head-on collisions... 96% of the fatalities on Deal's Gap are from Head on Collisions.

I have several pictures of a headless squid from La Veta Pass, Colorado 1998. He was hanging over the center line and rolling 90+ and came into a left curve and around the bend was a Tractor trailer with a Low Boy trailer hauling a huge land excavator and had the huge steel tracks. Well.. you know the rest.

I am not saying I do not enjoy 'hot dogging' or anything like that. Look at the Avatar to my name and if you can see that Gorgeous Princess there....that is my goal whether I am strapping on my Kevlar Vest, or my Kilimanjaro jacket.....my goal is coming home to her.

In the video when he made the last pass there, passing through a couple turns....he could not see a darn thing, and there could have been anything. His riding to me was not extreme, it was unlawful, neglectful and very irresponsible.
The only thing that could even somewhat remotely justify his action, is if he and his buddy on the GS have FRS and he told him...the coast was clear. If that was the case...then he was just unlawful!


Enjoy the ride, the Gap is worth the trip, but be safe and come home to your "avatar"

Bill

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post #12 of 33 Old Jul 6th, 2006, 8:48 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmg08057
Howard, since you quote me, I'll reply....yes, passing on yellows is dumb and doing it at the Gap is even dumber....and it can be the topic of an excellent thread is my guess. The discussion I was having with Rock was on issues he had with the guy while not doing the overtaking on the yellows, but riding (or in Rock's eye - attempting to ride) within his lane.
Fair enough. Got your point, and it's appreciated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rmg08057
For some people, double yellow line settings are orientated to cars, and since bikes have better acceleration than cars, bikes have more potential leeway for passing. This then is their justification for passing on some double yellow situations. This arguement is usually used purely internally, because it doesn't do to try and justify our actions to others like this
This is where I have to ask: What happens when we all decide (truckers, car drivers, motorcyclists, unicyclists) that we can outperform the vehicle in front of us and therefore it's OK for us to ignore the double yellow? Yes, this is meant rhetorically and yes, I'm being hyprocritical on this point because when I pass a 15 mph combine or other farm machinery on a double yellow I'm doing something unlawful... but I feel it's safe to do so! Arrgghhhhh.... I'm answering my own question.

Never mind. I'll go back to my AARP Magazine.

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post #13 of 33 Old Jul 6th, 2006, 9:01 pm
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Now, I didn't say anything about passing on a double yellow being legal. Hell, going one mph over the speed limit is illegal. The true fact is that I've never gotten a ticket that I didn't deserve.

I did mention doing it safely and one point of safety is knowing your and your machine's limitations.



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post #14 of 33 Old Jul 7th, 2006, 3:07 pm
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Personally I'm really tired of these vids and the idiots in them.
I also think it's piss poor that the guys from killboy and dealsgap.com are profiting off this crappy behavior, without regards to what they and their promotions of the area are doing to it. After they make it so crowded you'd never want to go near there and they have made enough money, they'll probably end up moving somewhere nice and quiet - like it used to be there.
I left a couple of posts on killboy last night, commenting specifically on some of the more ignorant pictures he had posted and the wimp "Daryl" who moderates the site immediately deleted them and has blocked me from commenting there. So just remember, any of the comments you see on killboy are only the ones he wants you to see, which is why you're not seeing the undercurrent of anger among the local population showing up on his website.
I refuse to support putting more money into a couple of opportunists pockets as well as the impending over-exploitation of the area by buying any of their paraphernalia or promoting their viewpoints.

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post #15 of 33 Old Jul 7th, 2006, 3:18 pm
 
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I refuse to support putting more money into a couple of opportunists pockets as well as the impending over-exploitation of the area by buying any of their paraphernalia or promoting their viewpoints.
And that is your right. Now exercise it!

As for me...I'll be doing the Dragon sometime this weekend. Or maybe Monday or Tuesday when NOBODY is on it. It's a great place to wear in your new footpegs.
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post #16 of 33 Old Jul 7th, 2006, 5:53 pm
 
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this dialog, and other recent, begs the question ... which rider is the biggest idiot?

1) the one casually cruising the dragon with his girlfriend wearing beanie helmets?

2) the fully leather festooned roadracer wanna-be who is crossing double yellows and wheelying between hairpins?

3) the one who decides he or she knows The Answer to this question?
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post #17 of 33 Old Jul 7th, 2006, 10:01 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pieceofficer
If you box it out (and you KNOW that you are squaring them) this is a great place to go. However, a LOT of riders are unaware that they even square off on a curve. This is one of the best things to judge a riders experience on. Actually, there are several Police Departments on both sides of the border that use DG as a training aid for follow thru and "look into your turn" type of techniques. The MST rides behind the new guys and actually GRADES them on their performance.
Okay you were watching the same thing I was.
Been doing this awhile huh?
Rock
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post #18 of 33 Old Jul 8th, 2006, 5:58 pm
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Emery Pass on New Mexico 152 has more turns is Much longer and no lines.
Then there is US 191 Coronado Hiway in eastern AZ.
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post #19 of 33 Old Jul 8th, 2006, 9:30 pm
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Cool Pass the information

Have ridden the dragon on several occasions with my brother we have bike to bike communications - FRS. Whoever is in the lead reports on road conditions and traffic ahead and it allows the other to pass under most all conditions - never had an incident. While being passed others may believe our actions were reckless but this situation was in reasonable control. In fact, riding all over the area down there is somewhat dangerous and we find having bike to bike communications helps identify and reduce many risky situations - debris on road, fast bikes from behind, fast cars coming at you, cars turning in all directions, and not to forget animals on the road - both dead and alive!

Having video taped rides on a few occasions there is no way these strap on cameras show you what the rider can see under all conditions - in many instances we are only seeing a limited portal.

As a lead bike have I passed on double yellow? Many times "yes" and more often "no". When I did pass on double yellow it was a decision based on the skill and control I had at the time and I felt I made a reasonably good decision. When I did not pass the conditions were not in my favor and there was insufficient information and I felt the risk was too high. Like all decisions on the bike skill, information and control are managed on a split second basis weather you are within the law or breaking the published rules - the moment you get on the bike you are in a high risk environment!!

My 2 cents . . .

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post #20 of 33 Old Jul 8th, 2006, 10:00 pm
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Doesn't matter

Quote:
Originally Posted by dfinazzo
When I did not pass the conditions were not in my favor and there was insufficient information and I felt the risk was too high. Like all decisions on the bike skill, information and control are managed on a split second basis weather you are within the law or breaking the published rules - the moment you get on the bike you are in a high risk environment!!
Any of those conditions a Patrol car in front of you, beside you, parked nearby? Because if you honestly feel that you have control and all the information to pass on a double yellow....then go ahead and do it. Then explain to the officer your "justification" you posted here and see if he doesn't give you his autograph.

Bill

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post #21 of 33 Old Jul 8th, 2006, 10:07 pm
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A little while

Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleRock
Okay you were watching the same thing I was.
Been doing this awhile huh?
Rock

Rock, I am not one to brag about miles, years, etc. All that needs to be said is that I have been riding since 4yo and have always been in possession of a bike, and it is usually used as my primary form of transportation.

However, in my experience....and I am only 31..so I know there is a lot more experience on here than me... but MOST people are not even aware of their Boxing corners. I know there were a lot of people disagreeing with you, but I am with you 100%, the camera bike was in my opinion, an inexperienced rider(in curves) or he is an experienced rider with a bad habit.

There were a few people that said he entered it wrong, misjudged the apex and had to realign....well that is crap! He did it consistently on the majority of his turns.

With ya Rock.....on this one

Bill

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2002 HD FXDL "Kristi"
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post #22 of 33 Old Jul 8th, 2006, 10:50 pm
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I bet the last thing the two riders in the video were thinking about was being critiiqued on this site...Can't we just all enjoy the ride?.

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post #23 of 33 Old Jul 9th, 2006, 3:34 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pieceofficer
Any of those conditions a Patrol car in front of you, beside you, parked nearby? Because if you honestly feel that you have control and all the information to pass on a double yellow....then go ahead and do it. Then explain to the officer your "justification" you posted here and see if he doesn't give you his autograph.
The rules and laws are there for a reason, but can't cover every possible situation. In many cases, they are designed towards the Least Common Denominator. If an RV or a mid-80's Chevette can't safely make the pass, then it's easier to paint a double yellow than to selectively enforce the rules. That does mean it's illegal, but does not automatically mean it's unsafe.

Yes, there are exceptions and those who will always push things beyond a reasonable limit. But the LEO's job is to enforce the laws as written, not to question those laws. Sure they have some latitude in their interpretation, but they are not the ultimate truth in these matters. However, the power that they do have, and the consequences they can impose, is to be respected. And in most cases, the risks the LEOs take and the job that they do makes them worthy of respect. Though in this case too, there are those who take things too far and thus make themselves the exception as well.

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post #24 of 33 Old Jul 9th, 2006, 8:42 am
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I think it goes well beyond that though, especially in this case. Your point about the laws being for the lowest denominator is true, but they are also there because of accident statistics, type of traffic prevalent etc. Deals Gap is a great example, the speed limit up there was higher not too long ago, I think it was 55mph. It's been lowered now because of all the accidents, the lack of judgement prevalent as well as the fact that you have Joe Racer on every 3rd vehicle, mixed in with tanker trucks and Harley Davidsons pulling trailers.
There is also something else here that keeps being overlooked. This is a PUBLIC ROAD. There are a couple of "entrepreneurs" (killboy.com and dealsgap.com most notably) who came up with a nickname for a piece of road, and started marketing the hell out of it for their profit. Now it's the #1 motorcycle destination in the country, it's changed the culture there from a quiet natural park vacation spot, to one of "Let's see how fast I can go". Again this is a PUBLIC ROAD. What gives these guys the right? Where do people get off thinking they can do whatever they want and pass people whenever they want, regardless of the anger and illwill it causes?
Also, what about the explosion of people into the area? Who is going to decide that it's not safe to ride 75mph on 129 anymore because there are just too many people? Right. NOONE will and then you will start having head on collisions and people running others off the road. Oh wait, that's happening now........

If people want to go fast, go to a track. If they want to ride on the road with Grandmothers, School buses, tanker trucks, bicyclists, etc. Then you need to do at least do two things. Use your head and drive with courtesy and when you really want to wick it up, take it to a track.

My .02.

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post #25 of 33 Old Jul 9th, 2006, 8:57 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pieceofficer
Rock, I am not one to brag about miles, years, etc. All that needs to be said is that I have been riding since 4yo and have always been in possession of a bike, and it is usually used as my primary form of transportation.

However, in my experience....and I am only 31..so I know there is a lot more experience on here than me... but MOST people are not even aware of their Boxing corners. I know there were a lot of people disagreeing with you, but I am with you 100%, the camera bike was in my opinion, an inexperienced rider(in curves) or he is an experienced rider with a bad habit.

There were a few people that said he entered it wrong, misjudged the apex and had to realign....well that is crap! He did it consistently on the majority of his turns.

With ya Rock.....on this one
Sounds like my little Brother he learned to ride as he learned to walk, made it onto a precision parade motorcycle drill team by the time he was 9 (Of course he did the hardest part, forgetting everything I ever taught him )
I've made a few passes on that road, enough that I have lost count, more than 50 but less than 100. I have ran it at night, in rain, in rain in the fall so the road was covered with wet leaves. I have filmed in on many occasions.
(No a camera never sees what the rider does)
I have passed many on that road and make room for others to pass in my lane if possible.
Spend enough time there (at the Dragon, Robbinsville etc)you might hear a story. How 30+ people crammed under the canopy at the gas station. Watched in total disbelief as 4 guys took off into the Dragon in a 1/2" hail storm. They all burst into cheers as the bikes reappeared, I rode point on the whispered story of the "Tail in the Hail"
Rock
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post #26 of 33 Old Jul 9th, 2006, 3:06 pm
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Yep, there are always those who will push the limits, and some who will go way overboard. The Dragon's reputation is a magnet for these types, who would be much better served on a proper track. But again, these are the exceptions, albeit fairly prevalent on this road. They're just one end of the spectrum, as the grandmothers who can barely see over the steering wheel or past the hood are the other end. I'm not picking on old people specifically, but I'm sure we all have examples of people who really shouldn't be on a public road, purely because of the danger they represent to others.

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post #27 of 33 Old Jul 9th, 2006, 8:28 pm
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Originally Posted by messenger13
As for me...I'll be doing the Dragon sometime this weekend. Or maybe Monday or Tuesday when NOBODY is on it. It's a great place to wear in your new footpegs.
Did you get down there, Joe? We , motored up and down the Dragon 1 trip Sunday afternoon. Had an eye out for ya but didn't see any GT's.

Everyone was riding pretty good. Only lane transgressions I saw were passes, I was ready and moving over. Love to watch 'em dive through the next few corners before they're gone. Even pulled off and watched for a while.

Also, was that you that once mentioned the Tuskegee Hotel? It looked pretty nice for a future stay.

John

2004 - LT - Anthracite
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post #28 of 33 Old Jul 10th, 2006, 7:38 am
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[QUOTE=pieceofficer]In the video when he made the last pass there, passing through a couple turns....he could not see a darn thing, and there could have been anything. His riding to me was not extreme, it was unlawful, neglectful and very irresponsible.
The only thing that could even somewhat remotely justify his action, is if he and his buddy on the GS have FRS and he told him...the coast was clear. If that was the case...then he was just unlawful!QUOTE]
They did have FRS communication. The GS rider was telling the second bike when it was clear to pass. This video was posted and discussed on the RT DB a while ago.

Burt Jones
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post #29 of 33 Old Jul 10th, 2006, 7:52 am
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bowlesj
Did you get down there, Joe? We , motored up and down the Dragon 1 trip Sunday afternoon. Had an eye out for ya but didn't see any GT's.

Everyone was riding pretty good. Only lane transgressions I saw were passes, I was ready and moving over. Love to watch 'em dive through the next few corners before they're gone. Even pulled off and watched for a while.

Also, was that you that once mentioned the Tuskegee Hotel? It looked pretty nice for a future stay.
I'm "down here", but haven't done the dragon as of yet. It's not our favorite road at all. Tomorrow (Tuesday) We'll be doing the Cherohala (my personal favorite)...and probably the dragon, just because I have to slay the beast with the new GT. Yesterday, we rode Wayah Road, the Richard Russell, and I rode Rt17 out of Hiawassee into Helen. Pure heaven! Every local moved out of my way without so much as flashing my brights. I guess the growl of the GT was warning enough.

I'll PM you my cell number. Maybe we can ride Tuesday. I would love to learn from you.
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post #30 of 33 Old Jul 12th, 2006, 6:02 am
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If you guys are calling squaring off the corner from going from the outside of the curve to the inside and back to the outside after hitting the apex, then I do that all the time. Go look at the guys that ride at high speed, aka Super Bike or any of the other road racing brackets, and you'll see that they do that all the time as it IS the fastest way through the corner.

YMMV

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post #31 of 33 Old Jul 14th, 2006, 4:55 am
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I think that squaring the corner means coming in too straight (or too fast) and having to drastically change your lean angle mid-corner. You want a smooth, even flow through the curve regardless of actual line traveled. But many folks misjudge their corners, then end up taking it in several different pieces. In the worst case, the corner is taken as two or more straight lines, with drastic corrections mid-corner. Whenever I see this happen in a group I'm riding with, I have a pleasant, non-confrontational chat with the rider at the next rest stop and politely suggest they look into taking some advanced riding classes. I won't mention why I brought it up unless they specifically ask. The pont is to inform, not accuse.

And the fastest way through the corner - depends. A smooth arc through the apex that minimises distance traveled is the shortest way through. But on today's high-powered bikes, you often have more power available than traction. In that case, you actually want to take the corner wide but apex very early. Then you stand the bike up close to vertical as soon as possible so you can feed in as much power as the rear wheel will handle without breaking loose. By the time the other guy is apexing and looking towards the exit, you're already well into your useable power band and can slingshot out at a much more rapid pace.

Note that the above discussion really applies to track riding and over-powered sport bikes. BMWs are generally underpowered for their weight, and street riding has so many other variables that these scenarios really don't apply to us.

Jeff & Joe excepted, of course.

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post #32 of 33 Old Jul 14th, 2006, 5:00 am
 
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Originally Posted by meese
Note that the above discussion really applies to track riding and over-powered sport bikes. BMWs are generally underpowered for their weight, and street riding has so many other variables that these scenarios really don't apply to us.

Jeff & Joe excepted, of course.
A very well-placed qualifyer, if there ever was one. You won't believe how fast this GT comes out of corners. I still don't believe it.
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post #33 of 33 Old Jul 14th, 2006, 7:05 am
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....and getting back to the source of the original discussion, would you say the guys in the video are "squaring off"?.......

Ralph
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but I left my biking heart along the Scenic Byways of America.....

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