Helmet Laws...For or Against? - BMW Luxury Touring Community
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post #1 of 113 Old Jun 13th, 2006, 11:23 am Thread Starter
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Question Helmet Laws...For or Against?

Yeh, evil ain't it?

But what is the deal...are YOU for helmet laws or against helmet laws? Maybe Billy Omaha will set us up with a poll...

Let the fireworks begin!
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post #2 of 113 Old Jun 13th, 2006, 11:29 am
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I'm for personal safety and think people should wear helmets. I am against the government dictating helmet use.

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post #3 of 113 Old Jun 13th, 2006, 11:33 am
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For Helmets - Against Laws that protect you from yourself.

Oh and the Social Burden Theory doesn't wash.

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post #4 of 113 Old Jun 13th, 2006, 11:38 am
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Agreed

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidTaylor
I'm for personal safety and think people should wear helmets. I am against the government dictating helmet use.
Agreed 1000%. I am for Helmet use, I use it. But it should NOT be dictated

Darcy Bastos
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post #5 of 113 Old Jun 13th, 2006, 11:52 am
 
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Well, I'm pretty new here, but I'll weigh in on the helmet law stuff -

The problem with not having helmet laws is that people want their freedoms but *not* the responsibility that goes with it.

In my field, I see people all the time with head injuries after motorcycle accidents (Wyoming has no helmet law). Guess what? A huge number of them are on Medicaid, many unable to work afterwards, some just simply stiffed the hospital for their $200,000 in direct medical costs which included 2 weeks in the ICU and 3 weeks in the Rehab unit, along with long-term outpatient therapy. So who's responsible for their "freedom" - you and me. WE pay for it.

I'd be all for the freedom aspect of not having helmet laws if those who chose not to wear helmets had to 1) post a $1 million bond against their direct and indirect costs to society when they get their head injury, or 2) had to show enough assets to pay for themselves, rather than dump the bill on the taxpayers, or 3) carried an advance directive card that they demand no medical/rehab/etc. services in the case of a head injury (still doesn't solve the problem of their long-term cost to society when they can't work and go on state support for the rest of their lives, or 4) some other remedy I haven't though of yet

Also, we who wear helmets of course pay for those who don't with our insurance premiums too, and that's not fair. How about tiered insurance at the least with the higher premiums for those who don't wear a helmet?

But to demand your freedom and have the other insureds or the taxpayers pick up your tab when you crack your head open is hypocritical BS.

End of rant.
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post #6 of 113 Old Jun 13th, 2006, 11:53 am
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I'm all for helmet use.

Along the lines of "You can't legislate morality" - you can't legislate evolution either.

Choice is good - making bad choices improves the species. Let 'em go. (Society seems to have lost the ability to learn such basics)

Parallel to that:
If a rider chooses to not wear a helmet, fine. However, by doing so, they aughta waive all Medicare/Medicade publicly funded health benefits/care. Idea is if you choose to ride lid-less, don't saddle society with vegetable maintenance when you scramble your mellon. To ride lid-less, you must have your own, full ride insurance. Your choice! Your consequences.

You make a choice that'll cost me, then I get to tell you what to do.

Choice is good - it's only effective when the consequences stay with that choice.

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post #7 of 113 Old Jun 13th, 2006, 11:54 am
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Seriously - we didn't plan that! Check the post times.

I used to work in the ER in Laramie - maybe why we've some similar ideas, eh?

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post #8 of 113 Old Jun 13th, 2006, 12:00 pm
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What David Said

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidTaylor
I'm for personal safety and think people should wear helmets. I am against the government dictating helmet use.
Right arm (sorry, a little 60s humor).

I also like the idea of posting a bond and/or paying a higher insurance premium if you don't wear a helmet. Yet, what will the docs and nurses do when a non-paying patient shows up in the ER with a massive injury -- not treat him? Let him bleed to death on the gurney in the hallway? That seems unlikely, and inhumane. There needs to be a way to reconcile their irresponsibility and our desire (or right) to not have to pay the consequences of their actions.

Interesting debate. Not sure if it can ever be solved. Maybe that's why there are helmet laws in some states.

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post #9 of 113 Old Jun 13th, 2006, 12:04 pm
 
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I too think that helmet use is a "no brainer" and wouldn't think of riding with-out one, but question whether it should be law for those past the age of majority.
But------I question the logic of people who argue they "should pay for their own medical bills" or "should have to carry X million dollars in insurance". I frequently hear these same people saying that helmets save lives (they do !) so how much insurance coverage is required for a dead person ?
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post #10 of 113 Old Jun 13th, 2006, 12:05 pm
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Poll....

Howdy Dave,

Here is the POLL you asked for.

.

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post #11 of 113 Old Jun 13th, 2006, 12:07 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mser
Hmmm...lemme think about this. *Soapbox On* Here on the hurricane magnet peninsula I don't have to wear protective headgear while riding my motorcycle (as long as I'm 21 years of age or older and carry $10k worth of medical insurance coverage) but my kid is required by law to wear it while riding his bicycle. I am however required to buckle up when I'm in a car or truck. Where is the logic? *Soapbox Off* With that said, I am in total agreement with all of the previous posts. I have not/do not/will not ride without the protection of a helmet/hat/skid lid/brain bucket, but let me make that decision.

Mike
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Good points, sir. Another way of impacting this topic: we can refuse to ride with others who won't wear a helmet. I don't ride with many other people and have never been confronted with this question, but I think I'd back out of a group ride if 1 or more were not wearing helmets.

I liken it to my policy of not playing racquetball (when I used to play) with anyone not wearing eye protection. That wasn't my policy until I saw a guy in the locker room one time who did not have eye protection on; he took a return volley right smack in the old eyeball. Not a happy person; never did hear what happened to his vision in that eye.

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post #12 of 113 Old Jun 13th, 2006, 12:09 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrGrabow
Well, I'm pretty new here, but I'll weigh in on the helmet law stuff -

The problem with not having helmet laws is that people want their freedoms but *not* the responsibility that goes with it.

In my field, I see people all the time with head injuries after motorcycle accidents (Wyoming has no helmet law). Guess what? A huge number of them are on Medicaid, many unable to work afterwards, some just simply stiffed the hospital for their $200,000 in direct medical costs which included 2 weeks in the ICU and 3 weeks in the Rehab unit, along with long-term outpatient therapy. So who's responsible for their "freedom" - you and me. WE pay for it.

I'd be all for the freedom aspect of not having helmet laws if those who chose not to wear helmets had to 1) post a $1 million bond against their direct and indirect costs to society when they get their head injury, or 2) had to show enough assets to pay for themselves, rather than dump the bill on the taxpayers, or 3) carried an advance directive card that they demand no medical/rehab/etc. services in the case of a head injury (still doesn't solve the problem of their long-term cost to society when they can't work and go on state support for the rest of their lives, or 4) some other remedy I haven't though of yet

Also, we who wear helmets of course pay for those who don't with our insurance premiums too, and that's not fair. How about tiered insurance at the least with the higher premiums for those who don't wear a helmet?

But to demand your freedom and have the other insureds or the taxpayers pick up your tab when you crack your head open is hypocritical BS.

End of rant.
Thank you, couldn't have said it any better.
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post #13 of 113 Old Jun 13th, 2006, 12:15 pm
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hschisler
Right arm (sorry, a little 60s humor).

I also like the idea of posting a bond and/or paying a higher insurance premium if you don't wear a helmet. Yet, what will the docs and nurses do when a non-paying patient shows up in the ER with a massive injury -- not treat him? Let him bleed to death on the gurney in the hallway? That seems unlikely, and inhumane. There needs to be a way to reconcile their irresponsibility and our desire (or right) to not have to pay the consequences of their actions.

Interesting debate. Not sure if it can ever be solved. Maybe that's why there are helmet laws in some states.
Let those who ride decide!

I wear one most of the time, sometimes I choose not to. The wife and I have recently decided that your average Masshole is encroaching further into NH (pardon the regional slur, it's aimed at driving style not locale ) and we will be wearing helmets and jackets more often around home. It's a personal risk tolerance question.

As for the social burden thing...as soon as they start regulating McDonalds, KFC, and the like and institute the cholestorol control laws in order to contain health care costs I'll listen to the arguments about MC rider's relatively microscopic cost to the public.
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post #14 of 113 Old Jun 13th, 2006, 12:19 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron82much
Let those who ride decide!...
I think that's the side I came down on, but with a nagging/lingering doubt about just how to implement that. I'm with you.

You decide not to wear a helmet? Cool. Now take responsibility for that decision and post a bond, pay a higher insurance premium, or something similar -- and reasonable.

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post #15 of 113 Old Jun 13th, 2006, 12:33 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron82much
-------------
As for the social burden thing...as soon as they start regulating McDonalds, KFC, and the like and institute the cholestorol control laws in order to contain health care costs I'll listen to the arguments about MC rider's relatively microscopic cost to the public.
Now that strikes me as totally irrelevent.

That in no way relates to whether one should be required to wear a helmet or not. It would equate to NOT SELLING MOTORCYCLES! Or, you can sell a motorcycle but it must be sold WITH a DOT approved helmet. If you decice to buy a high cholesterol hamburger, then eat it, or a motorcycle (with helmet) and decide to ride without the helmet, YOU are responsible for the circumstances, not the company who sold it to you.

Why do we still have cigarettes? Then we end up with the total idiots who then sue the companies for health care when they get cancer!

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post #16 of 113 Old Jun 13th, 2006, 12:36 pm
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If someone has hard numbers to post about the Social Burden of Motorcyclist injuries without helmets - then site it.

I don't believe that the Social Burden Theory holds up in the big picture.
Hard numbers from the AMA - http://www.amadirectlink.com/legislt...ons/helmet.asp
Read it all the way through.

For me it's the greater of two evils - There is always going to be some social burden in a free capitalist society.
I'll always support Helmet use but never support Helmet Laws for Adults.

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post #17 of 113 Old Jun 13th, 2006, 12:45 pm
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I have to be one of the few who fall on the side of helmet laws.

I have never understood the "thinking" of those who state that it "only affects me". Total BS!

I would fully support any workable way that any negative result that would have been greatly affected by a good helmet should be paid for by the perpetrator. But I also know that would be almost impossible to do, so the only reasonable enforceable option is to make helmets mandatory for everyone.

Maybe a world wide law that states "Everyone other than Al Qaeda members must wear DOT approved helmets when riding a motorcycle".

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

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post #18 of 113 Old Jun 13th, 2006, 12:46 pm
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Some insurance companies are going the route of 'discouraging' poor health practices. These days of ever rising health costs, folks're getting their rates jacked or policies dropped if their eating/behavior choices put them 'outside the acceptable group'. There's a lot of state by state law invovled, so it's tough to make 'blanket' statements about who and how - but if you ain't seen it yet, get ready.

And yes - these viwepoints are very much USA centric. Interesting to note that those countries with publicly funded health care do require skid lids. They also have the injury statistics to support that action.

ERs - that take any form of public funding at least - are required to treat any and every patient that walks in the door. That is the law now. We'll start another thread someday to talk about the 'System Abusers' that use ERs as their primary care providers.

May also want to take a look at the 'public burdon' of un-insured head injury patients. The expense is mind-boggling. 'Heart attack' patients are flip'n CHEAP by comparison.

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post #19 of 113 Old Jun 13th, 2006, 1:00 pm
 
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I think insurance companies should give a discount to helmet wearers. And if you get into an accident without your helmet on and head trauma results...than your coverage is compromised (i.e. 60% coverage, instead of 90%). Make non-helmet riders PAY for their actions. Furthermore, they (or a family member) should have to wash their brains off the street!
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post #20 of 113 Old Jun 13th, 2006, 1:02 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amarider
... http://www.amadirectlink.com/legislt...ons/helmet.asp
Read it all the way through.
....
Howdy John,

I did read it and I haven't made the social cost argument.

I pulled this from the article, which I believe to be the crux of the AMA position,
"The AMA opposes provisions conditioning rider choice of helmet use on economic criteria such as, but not limited to, additional insurance coverage, which is based on the negative and incorrect view that motorcyclists are a social burden. The AMA believes accepting such requirements is contrary to the long-term interests of motorcycling. The Association further believes that helmet use alone is insufficient to ensure a motorcyclist's safety. There is a broad range of other measures that can be implemented to improve the skill of motorcycle operators as well as reduce the frequency of situations where other vehicle operators are the cause of accidents involving motorcycles."


So, let me see if I understand:

1- The AMA wants to spend money (money from my membership) to tell insurance companies that they can not charge me more in premiums because a rider chooses to not wear a helmet? Common sense tells any reasonable person that two riders, one with a helmet and one without, in identical accidents where they both survive, the one with the helmet is going to cost less. Of course the rider not wearing a helmet that dies is a lot cheaper for the insurance company, but who wants to stand on a soap box and make that argument?


2- The AMA says that avoidance of an accident is better than protection during an accident, which we'd all agree with. But then they say, therefore don't bother with protection go for prevention. Huh? So a pilot in a fighter plane doesn't need to wear a parachute because he should simply avoid having to bail out. Stuff happens, all the education in the world won't keep gravel out of the road, or grandma from making a left in front of a motorcycle. But the helmet will mitigate the injuries.

The AMA position is a popular opinion argument based on logic that is erroneous.

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Last edited by BillyOmaha; Jun 13th, 2006 at 2:24 pm.
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post #21 of 113 Old Jun 13th, 2006, 1:06 pm
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Here ya go John - section 6

http://www.iihs.org/research/qanda/helmet_use.html

EDIT: Oops! Wrong section - see section 7!

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post #22 of 113 Old Jun 13th, 2006, 1:07 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidTaylor
I'm for personal safety and think people should wear helmets. I am against the government dictating helmet use.
BINGO!


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post #23 of 113 Old Jun 13th, 2006, 1:10 pm
 
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Two questions:

Are you willing to waive all publicly funded assistance for any medical bills resulting from head injuries for those who choose to ride without a helmet?


Are you willing to allow the insurance company to raise your rates to what they think is acceptble to deal with the added expense?
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post #24 of 113 Old Jun 13th, 2006, 1:23 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotter
Here ya go John - section 6

http://www.iihs.org/research/qanda/helmet_use.html

EDIT: Oops! Wrong section - see section 7!
That's a benfit I would have never thought of - Less Motorcycle theft.....
But I find that the Hard numbers in section 7 interesting, only a 8 percent increase in cost for unhelmeted injuries which equated only to a $1201 increase.

Not that anyone should have to pay for anyone elses stupidty, but I would rather start with welfare, drug user health costs ect.

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post #25 of 113 Old Jun 13th, 2006, 1:27 pm
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Maybe something like in some European countries would work (as a deterrent). "If you don't wear a helmet all your insurance fly out the window. Not only if you are at fault, but also if you are NOT at fault. in not wearing a helmet you actually contributed to the accident and to the seriousness of the accident and therefore the insurances go free"

That goes so far as to: You get hurt at your foot in an accident were you are NOt at fault but weren't wearing your helmet, so even the insurance of the party at fault goes free since you opted to "contribute" to the seriousness of the accident.

I can tell you for a fact, once this was the case in Austria everybody VERY quickly started wearing helmets. I don't know what the situation is today but back when this law went into effect helmets were not mandated, but you lost ALL your rights as a victim if you didn't wear you helmet.
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post #26 of 113 Old Jun 13th, 2006, 1:36 pm
 
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i saw some stats once on the social financial burden from helmetless accidents. the financial costs are a drop in the bucket compared to the effect of things like:

- smoking cigarettes
- being overweight
- shunning exercise
- eating sweets

so the question is ... are you willing to deny insurance coverage to people who fall in these categories too? their financial burden on you greatly outweigh anything helmetless motorcyclists could possibly inflict.
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post #27 of 113 Old Jun 13th, 2006, 1:42 pm
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Seatbelt vs. helmet??

All states have some sort of seatbelt law, what is the difference with helmets that make persons so uptight???
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post #28 of 113 Old Jun 13th, 2006, 1:49 pm
 
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Works for me. Let's see personal choice folks put up or shut up
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There are more of us than you think
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So you want to start with the stuff that does not touch your pocketbook first. Well if you don't look out for number one, who will, eh?
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post #31 of 113 Old Jun 13th, 2006, 1:55 pm
 
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I would say his logic is flawed if he is truly thinks the judgement skills of children to be on par with adults.
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post #32 of 113 Old Jun 13th, 2006, 1:56 pm
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[QUOTE=dshealey]I have to be one of the few who fall on the side of helmet laws.

I have never understood the "thinking" of those who state that it "only affects me". Total BS! [QUOTE]


I agree with a helmet law also. A real one.

There is a helmet law in Georgia, but according to local law enforcement officers - it seems that when the state legislature passed the law, it required the Georgia State Patrol to formulate a list of approved helmets for wear in the State. Then this same legislature decided not to fund the State Patrol for preparation of said list of approved helmets. So, what we have is a law that seem to require that a rider must wear something on their head whilst riding / operating a motorcycle. In Georgia, it would be interesting to find out the percentage of riders that use actual DOT (not brain buckets with a purchased DOT label) helmets.

How many times can I vote in the survey?

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post #33 of 113 Old Jun 13th, 2006, 1:57 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motorman587
All states have some sort of seatbelt law, what is the difference with helmets that make persons so uptight???
one word...............

Passion!

I've been on both sides of this and around more times than I can remember. In my younger days I was all for social good of all. As with many I became more conserative with age about over Legislation.
I see both sides of this and lean ever so slightly toward freedom of choice.
One thing is for sure - I've never seen anyone change their mind about this subject no matter what is said.

John & Cathy
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post #34 of 113 Old Jun 13th, 2006, 1:58 pm
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motorman587
All states have some sort of seatbelt law, what is the difference with helmets that make persons so uptight???
People that don't wear helmets are morons. There's no rationalizing with them, or their behavior. You know...they're born to be wild and all.
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post #35 of 113 Old Jun 13th, 2006, 1:59 pm
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I am new to this board. I always wear a helmet and proper clothing. Just recently bought an 03 LT. Some things I have a hard time keeping quiet about and this is one of them. It pains me to see some dude on a bike with his young son on the back both in shorts and no helmet, but i dont think I have the right to impose my opinions about riding. Maybe we should have every facet of our lives legislated and taxed. Just about is now. I agree that the cost to society argument doesnt wash. It is the insurance lobbyists that are always trying to get helmet laws passed.
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post #36 of 113 Old Jun 13th, 2006, 2:07 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotter
I'm all for helmet use.

Along the lines of "You can't legislate morality" - you can't legislate evolution either.

Choice is good - making bad choices improves the species. Let 'em go. (Society seems to have lost the ability to learn such basics)

Parallel to that:
If a rider chooses to not wear a helmet, fine. However, by doing so, they aughta waive all Medicare/Medicade publicly funded health benefits/care. Idea is if you choose to ride lid-less, don't saddle society with vegetable maintenance when you scramble your mellon. To ride lid-less, you must have your own, full ride insurance. Your choice! Your consequences.

You make a choice that'll cost me, then I get to tell you what to do.

Choice is good - it's only effective when the consequences stay with that choice.
I agree with your ideas, BUT (and there's always one of those, isn't there?):

Here in Massachusetts we have had a mandatory helmet law in place for as long as I can remember. So, to get around it, a lot of riders wear beanie caps - non DOT approved cheap fiberglass salad bowls with a chin strap usually worn so loosely the helmet is flapping behind your head when on the highway. Occasionally, you'll get stopped and ticketed (I was, twice) and you go to court and beat it (I did, twice).
Would that beanie have saved me in a crash? Highly doubtful, since it fell off my bike seat once and cracked in two when it hit the pavement (I held it together with duct tape in order to get home "legally") So, would wearing something as useless as that allow me to ride without my million dollar coverage? If I crashed and they had to pick bits of my helmet out of my cracked skull, would they still have to pay my medical and recovery costs?

This may sound crude, but the only way to get around the cost of caring for someone who chooses not to wear a helmet is to somehow assure they only crash with sufficient force to kill them before the ambulance arrives.

Just my $.02
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post #37 of 113 Old Jun 13th, 2006, 2:16 pm
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I just know my comm system would be worthless without a helmet. I have to go back to yelling at the pillion, blasting the radio, using a hand mike for the CB, holding my cellphone up to my head, and wearing earplugs. Think of all the money I would have saved on farkles and convenience if I had just moved to Wyoming and bought a doo-rag.

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post #38 of 113 Old Jun 13th, 2006, 2:34 pm
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I posted a Companion Poll - Why do you wear a helmet - in the poll section with Billy's poll.
Just want to see why we wear the helmet or not, besides why we support helmet laws or not.

John & Cathy
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post #39 of 113 Old Jun 13th, 2006, 2:38 pm
 
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How can ya'll holler about medical cost for the guy without the helmet.......

Dr grabow that $200,000. bill is full retail for treatment to someone without insurance,, People with insurance especially group insurance don't get the $200,000. bill because they have a prior agreement with the hospitals to only pay wholesale.. My insurance pays what they consider is a reasonable amount, the hospital writes off part of the bill and I pay a small co-payment..
So the argument about cost on medical bills is bogus, nobodies insurance has gone up due to the cost of motorcycle accidents... Heres a FACT for you,, More people are killed or injured percentage wise in automobiles than on motorcycles due to head injures.. So if ya want to call for people to wear helmets or waiver their insurance due the same to cage drivers, that is where the money is spent....

That quarterback would have gotten the same injures with or without a helmet,, Maybe .. If he would have had a full face helmet on he would have had some protection, but a 3/4 or 1/2 helmet on would not have stopped any of his injures...

Anyway I'm all for helmets I wear one just like my seat belt but I hate the law telling me I must wear one.. One of these days they will tell us what kind of razors to use so we don't hurt ourselves ...........Regards Pete
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post #40 of 113 Old Jun 13th, 2006, 2:40 pm
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Years ago I used to donate time and supplies to a head injury institute in California. They trained people with head injuries to enter the food service and hospitalities industries. The vast majority of young adults had injuries as a kid from bicycles hitting parked cars ,fences or street lite poles and slamming their heads onto the object crushing the frontal lobe. Many rumored to have actually been abused as a child and shaken or struck, the parents used the accident as an excuse.Unfortunately mandatory helmet laws for bicycles on kids didn't statistically change the situation very much.Granted some kids don't wear them,others wear them incorrectly etc.

The argument that motor cycle helmets save lives is correct but to what percentages.If they want to save all motorcycle lives will they stop until they ban the motorcycle completely. If we are to argue the life saving aspect where will the legislation end.

The statistical argument will be debated forever...Cigarettes,booze and greasy food killing many more than are killed on motor cycles without helmets. Leave it up to the individual and let nature thin the heard.

Tony 05

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post #41 of 113 Old Jun 13th, 2006, 2:56 pm
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Cool Helmet Laws

This is really an non-issue in Canada, every province and territory has a mandatory helmet law, I can't remember the last time I saw someone riding without one, It must have a DOT approval on it so easy enforcement, Even the H.A. wear them here. We have universal health care so the gov't has a financial as well as a moral obligation for helmet use. I can't remember any fellow Canadian motorcyclist complaining about "having to wear one" I think its more of a European bias culture here of freedom vs. societal obligation.
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post #42 of 113 Old Jun 13th, 2006, 3:00 pm
 
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeS
We have universal health care.

oh sure ... go ahead and rub it in.

BTW ... do you know when my prescription will be ready?
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post #43 of 113 Old Jun 13th, 2006, 3:02 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hschisler
Right arm (sorry, a little 60s humor).

I also like the idea of posting a bond and/or paying a higher insurance premium if you don't wear a helmet. Yet, what will the docs and nurses do when a non-paying patient shows up in the ER with a massive injury -- not treat him? Let him bleed to death on the gurney in the hallway? That seems unlikely, and inhumane. There needs to be a way to reconcile their irresponsibility and our desire (or right) to not have to pay the consequences of their actions.

Interesting debate. Not sure if it can ever be solved. Maybe that's why there are helmet laws in some states.
Didn't they do something like that in Florida in 2000-2001? If you wanted to ride without a helmet you paid a higher ins premium. Does anyone from Florida know if this is true and how did it turn out?

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post #44 of 113 Old Jun 13th, 2006, 3:07 pm
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I'm sure big Ben R from the Steelers is thinking a bit more about riding with a helmet today. PA's law is anyone over 21 doesn't have to wear a helmet. Sounds like the Superbowl MVP would have had relatively minor injuries with a helmet on his head instead of an oversized ego.

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post #45 of 113 Old Jun 13th, 2006, 3:18 pm
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Seatbelt vs. Helmet laws

What is the difference between a seatbelt law for drivers and passengers and a helmet law that states....wear one?

Both infringe on my "free spirit" to drive my car or my motorcycle......

Financial burden......personal choice.....it's just hot here in the southwest.....all of these are ridiculous arguments.....is our government sooooooooooo bad that a simple law that says "wear a helmet you dumbass motorcycle rider"....so you don't wreck your head 37% as bad....completely [email protected]

We all agree on one thing.....wearing a helmet = smart. Why is it that we aren't up in arms about seatbelt laws or laws that say....drive 55MPH....if we all just took personal responsibility for our actions.....

World don't work that way.....nice theory...but it don't.....mandate the use.

Course....why do i really care....i wear mine....so what doesn't affect me....shouldn't concern me!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? That's what reading most of these post leads me to believe....
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post #46 of 113 Old Jun 13th, 2006, 3:27 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrGrabow
Well, I'm pretty new here, but I'll weigh in on the helmet law stuff -

The problem with not having helmet laws is that people want their freedoms but *not* the responsibility that goes with it.

In my field, I see people all the time with head injuries after motorcycle accidents (Wyoming has no helmet law). Guess what? A huge number of them are on Medicaid, many unable to work afterwards, some just simply stiffed the hospital for their $200,000 in direct medical costs which included 2 weeks in the ICU and 3 weeks in the Rehab unit, along with long-term outpatient therapy. So who's responsible for their "freedom" - you and me. WE pay for it.

I'd be all for the freedom aspect of not having helmet laws if those who chose not to wear helmets had to 1) post a $1 million bond against their direct and indirect costs to society when they get their head injury, or 2) had to show enough assets to pay for themselves, rather than dump the bill on the taxpayers, or 3) carried an advance directive card that they demand no medical/rehab/etc. services in the case of a head injury (still doesn't solve the problem of their long-term cost to society when they can't work and go on state support for the rest of their lives, or 4) some other remedy I haven't though of yet

Also, we who wear helmets of course pay for those who don't with our insurance premiums too, and that's not fair. How about tiered insurance at the least with the higher premiums for those who don't wear a helmet?

But to demand your freedom and have the other insureds or the taxpayers pick up your tab when you crack your head open is hypocritical BS.

End of rant.
I think the statistical link to medicaid or other public funding healthcare would be more for people at the bottom of the economical ladder who ride a bike full time because they have too.Lower payments or initial investment in a bike,lower gas bills etc.These people along with younger people and students are more likely to opt not to buy health insurance and only purchase the minimum coverage for the bike. These are the people that end up on the public dime for healthcare. As opposed to the older weekend warrior with a fully decked out bike and all the gear and insurance. Helmet or not if I end up in the ER the bill is getting paid.
I am for helmets as well as the choice to wear them.
Charging people more who don't wear a helmet will only fly with me if healthcare insurers charge more to smokers,drinkers and fat people. I am paying for them in my premiums every month.
I also think if you don't wear a helmet you should automatically be put on the organ donor list .
By the way..Welcome DrGrabow!

Tony 05

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post #47 of 113 Old Jun 13th, 2006, 3:44 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter20
What is the difference between a seatbelt law for drivers and passengers and a helmet law that states....wear one?

Both infringe on my "free spirit" to drive my car or my motorcycle......

Financial burden......personal choice.....it's just hot here in the southwest.....all of these are ridiculous arguments.....is our government sooooooooooo bad that a simple law that says "wear a helmet you dumbass motorcycle rider"....so you don't wreck your head 37% as bad....completely [email protected]

We all agree on one thing.....wearing a helmet = smart. Why is it that we aren't up in arms about seatbelt laws or laws that say....drive 55MPH....if we all just took personal responsibility for our actions.....

World don't work that way.....nice theory...but it don't.....mandate the use.

Course....why do i really care....i wear mine....so what doesn't affect me....shouldn't concern me!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? That's what reading most of these post leads me to believe....
Decaf coffee tomorrow amigo and maybe get a cat to pet.

Had I not lived in Phoenix,Arizona and collapsed on a bike at an intersection in 130 degree heat from a helmet that had to be cut off of my head ,your argument might hold water. That's why we leave it up to the states to work out these situations.
You bet the trucking industry and drivers had heated arguments when the 55 mph went into effect. We all get involved with the issues that effect us.
The seat belt issue is an easy one to swallow,the only real argument is that it wrinkled clothing.Air bags on the other hand was disputed by the auto industry because it forced expensive retooling and production cost on them and didn't add customer appeal value for quite some time after introduction.

Tony 05
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post #48 of 113 Old Jun 13th, 2006, 3:44 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hawg
Yeh, evil ain't it?

But what is the deal...are YOU for helmet laws or against helmet laws? Maybe Billy Omaha will set us up with a poll...

Let the fireworks begin!
I generally stand on the side of fewer laws of any type as most are passed for political reasons and subsequently ignored. I would prefer that there be on law regarding helmet use but concede that this is a case that may warrant a law, provided it is enforced. My reason is that taxpayers and insureds pay a tremendous price to care for irresponsible people.
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post #49 of 113 Old Jun 13th, 2006, 3:45 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amarider
For Helmets - Against Laws that protect you from yourself.

Oh and the Social Burden Theory doesn't wash.
Please explain.
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post #50 of 113 Old Jun 13th, 2006, 3:50 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy
Maybe something like in some European countries would work (as a deterrent). "If you don't wear a helmet all your insurance fly out the window. Not only if you are at fault, but also if you are NOT at fault. in not wearing a helmet you actually contributed to the accident and to the seriousness of the accident and therefore the insurances go free"

That goes so far as to: You get hurt at your foot in an accident were you are NOt at fault but weren't wearing your helmet, so even the insurance of the party at fault goes free since you opted to "contribute" to the seriousness of the accident.

I can tell you for a fact, once this was the case in Austria everybody VERY quickly started wearing helmets. I don't know what the situation is today but back when this law went into effect helmets were not mandated, but you lost ALL your rights as a victim if you didn't wear you helmet.
Andy,
Good idea but the ACLU isn't active in Europe.
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