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  #51  
Old Sep 2nd, 2013, 6:42 pm
jrhSeattle jrhSeattle is offline
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Re: Bad decision

I think Risky should just tell the truth. Its easy to remember and is hardly ever a bad idea!

I suppose his policy could have some weird provision for cancellation if you ride your RT somewhere other than a paved road. In that event, the worst that would happen...........they'd cancel you. Probably don't want them as an insurance company if they are that picky anyway. Of course, your premiums might go up a bit, but given the likely cost of the repair, I think you would be bread ahead by reporting the accident. Regardless, the claim should be made as soon as possible.
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  #52  
Old Sep 2nd, 2013, 7:03 pm
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Re: Bad decision

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrhSeattle
I think Risky should just tell the truth. Its easy to remember and is hardly ever a bad idea!

I suppose his policy could have some weird provision for cancellation if you ride your RT somewhere other than a paved road. In that event, the worst that would happen...........they'd cancel you. Probably don't want them as an insurance company if they are that picky anyway. Of course, your premiums might go up a bit, but given the likely cost of the repair, I think you would be bread ahead by reporting the accident. Regardless, the claim should be made as soon as possible.
Well, Flo is my insurance agent. She's too nice to not pay a claim!!!!

Yeah, the premium might go up depending on how they classify the claim.

I'm still not getting this thread. Did anyone say "lie?"
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  #53  
Old Sep 2nd, 2013, 7:16 pm
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Re: Bad decision

Quote:
Originally Posted by fpmlt
I can certainly see how this settles the question: Weld the crack or patch it.
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  #54  
Old Sep 2nd, 2013, 7:17 pm
Solo6 Solo6 is offline
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Re: Bad decision

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeftCoastMan
I'm still not getting this thread. Did anyone say "lie?"
Someone suggested claiming that the damage was done by a brick that fell off of a truck.
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  #55  
Old Sep 2nd, 2013, 8:09 pm
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Re: Bad decision

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponch
01 11 11 7 701 990 ENGINE HOUSING, BLACK (from 10/07) 26.29 Lbs 1 $1425.48
You have three choices.
1) Sell the bike at a loss and buy a new one ($26,000 CAN)
2) Weld it and live with the hope it doesn't fail on that next big trip
3) Spend the 2 grand and have your baby back.

I just low sided my bike a few weeks ago and faced $3000 in repairs.
My bike is my sanity. I've ridden all over North America and I have great memories attached to it. I decided it was worth fixing.

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  #56  
Old Sep 2nd, 2013, 8:13 pm
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Re: Bad decision

Lying - even a little bit - to an insurance company is called insurance fraud and can have nasty consequences.

I agree that, in its simplest form, insurance is there to make things 'right' when dumb things happen. Sometimes they are avoidable, sometimes they are not. My two cents' worth: file the claim soon, being completely honest. If the insurance company denies the claim, ask them to point out the clause in the policy on which that denial is based. Read it for yourself, and if you still think it should be covered hired an attorney.

Best case scenario: insurance covers it.
Worst case scenario: you tried the insurance route, then you get it fixed (whichever way you decide to go with that).
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  #57  
Old Sep 2nd, 2013, 9:34 pm
Ponch Ponch is offline
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Re: Bad decision

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeftCoastMan
Solo is some sort of Captain or Sergeant or something. Maybe even General. I don't know. But if he says that the CHP doesn't have a quota, I believe him.

You're telling us a story form 25 years ago and in NYC. The world has changed. First of all music is better. Women's hair styles are better. And the weed is better.
Yeah, it has changed and I believe Solo6 too as far as CHP goes. It's one of those always and never deals.

Some of the music is better, some is worse. I don't smoke weed though, but I do favor 18 year old Macallan. As far as women go, I am married, so one, I don't question hair styles and two, see rule #1. When it comes to style and sartorial matters, I just nod in agreement.
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  #58  
Old Sep 3rd, 2013, 2:35 am
Chayside Chayside is offline
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Re: Bad decision

Wow this thread went crazy for a while. Risky, as a motor mechanic when ever we found a crack in an engine block our method of repair is as follows. At the beginning of the crack we would drill a hole half into good steel and half into the beginning of the crack. We then taped the hole and screwed in a short stud stopping flush with the block surface. We then drilled a second hole again taking out half of the first stud. We then taped it and inserted a second stud and so on and so on until we reached the end of the crack and finally overlapping in to good material at the other end. It could be a long job but this is the professional way to fix a cracked block. Each stud had red loctite 271/262 applied good for high temp oily parts you don't want to come lose. Worked a treat. JMTW. Good luck with your fix. On a side note, JB weld is used regularly to build up the base of worn cylinder liner bases and then machined were welding is not an option especially were cast iron is concerned.
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  #59  
Old Sep 3rd, 2013, 4:45 am
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Re: Bad decision

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregcm
Wow. That's tough. But forget the JB Weld -- I've never had that stuff work on ANYTHING, and wouldn't dare rely on it for something like a cracked engine case.

You're looking at replacement of the case.
I respectfully but completely disagree.

In my many years of professional involvement with high end cars I have been around the most amazing successful repairs of engine blocks and similar parts using JB weld. The critical part is the preparation. For instance if you have a crack, using a dremel to grind a V shaped grove along the center of the crack helps greatly. Drilling small holes at the ends of the crack assures it does not creep further. Total removal of oil, dirt, and paint plus roughing up of surfaces is another important step. It can be time consuming, but done right it works. For me, anyway
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  #60  
Old Sep 3rd, 2013, 7:14 am
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Re: Bad decision

I apologize for getting this discussion back on track but you might want to look at a product called Belzona. It is like JB weld on steroids. I saw it used on the casing of a pump on a fire truck. This truck saw heavy use for 20 years! and the Belzona repair looked just like new when the pump was retired from service. http://www.belzona.com/en/products/1000/1111.aspx
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  #61  
Old Sep 3rd, 2013, 7:38 am
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Re: Bad decision

Quote:
Originally Posted by hschisler
Lying - even a little bit - to an insurance company is called insurance fraud and can have nasty consequences.

I agree that, in its simplest form, insurance is there to make things 'right' when dumb things happen. Sometimes they are avoidable, sometimes they are not. My two cents' worth: file the claim soon, being completely honest. If the insurance company denies the claim, ask them to point out the clause in the policy on which that denial is based. Read it for yourself, and if you still think it should be covered hired an attorney.

Best case scenario: insurance covers it.
Worst case scenario: you tried the insurance route, then you get it fixed (whichever way you decide to go with that).
Exactly.

I admit being disappointed at seeing suggestions that someone compromise their integrity. In my world, we simply do not do that.
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  #62  
Old Sep 3rd, 2013, 10:40 am
Solo6 Solo6 is offline
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Re: Bad decision

Quote:
Originally Posted by steveaikens
I admit being disappointed at seeing suggestions that someone compromise their integrity. In my world, we simply do not do that.
I wish that I could find a world like that!
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  #63  
Old Sep 3rd, 2013, 10:43 am
Ponch Ponch is offline
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Re: Bad decision

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solo6
I wish that I could find a world like that!
You wouldn't have much of a job.
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  #64  
Old Sep 3rd, 2013, 10:45 am
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Re: Bad decision

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solo6
I wish that I could find a world like that!
Sorry, I'm already married....

It's sad that integrity is often had cheaply.
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  #65  
Old Sep 3rd, 2013, 3:15 pm
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Re: Bad decision

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponch
You wouldn't have much of a job.
Sure I would. Most of the problems that I deal with have nothing to do with the people's personal integrity, but more with mistakes they make.

I don't consider traffic offenses to be a sign that someone lacks integrity. Judgment, much of the time, but not integrity.

The guys I know who deal with felonies wish that the most important jobs in their agencies were in the Lost Kitten Bureau.
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  #66  
Old Sep 3rd, 2013, 3:17 pm
Solo6 Solo6 is offline
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Re: Bad decision

Quote:
Originally Posted by steveaikens
It's sad that integrity is often had cheaply.
It's sad that integrity isn't seen for its true value.
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  #67  
Old Sep 3rd, 2013, 3:32 pm
Ponch Ponch is offline
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Re: Bad decision

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solo6
Sure I would. Most of the problems that I deal with have nothing to do with the people's personal integrity, but more with mistakes they make.

I don't consider traffic offenses to be a sign that someone lacks integrity. Judgment, much of the time, but not integrity.

The guys I know who deal with felonies wish that the most important jobs in their agencies were in the Lost Kitten Bureau.
I've had people tell me that any infraction of the law is a sign of a lack of integrity. I don't agree, but they were uptight mid-westerners. FWIW, IMO, most crime and infractions are to do with faulty thinking. It's just a question of degree.
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  #68  
Old Sep 3rd, 2013, 4:06 pm
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Re: Bad decision

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponch
Here's where I do disagree. I dated a NYC cop in the 80's. She worked the 43rd precinct in the Bronx. She had to write a certain amount of paper and if she didn't, she would be out of the heated and air conditioned RMP to a 3 wheeled cushman with neither or walking a beat. Like you said though, there are enough people breaking the law that it wasn't hard, but she got her orders from the Sergeant at the start of her shift when then did roll call.
The dealership I frequent does service work for many law enforcement agencies and just about any day you'll find an officer or two milling about. Being that I always like to strike up conversations with people, I frequently ask these guys about parts of the traffic code I don't understand and they for the most part are very informed and if they are unsure, they have this neat little book where they can look up the vehicle code.

Anyway, I asked more than one officer if there were any "quotas" they had to meet. With some it's a "no" in a very natural and conversational tone. With others, you get a pause, a stammer and then a no...we don't have quotas. One of those guys I know best said that his department does not have quotas...but supervisors can easily look at the numbers and call into the office any officer that's not meeting what would normally be expected.

He went on to say quotas are against the law but "in general" departments that he has worked for use words like "contacts", "goals", "activity targets" and "benchmarks" and with a wink and a nod LEOs know what's been conveyed.

Now to say that quotas are non-existent, you only need to follow these links...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...p_ref=new-york

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/10/ny...anted=all&_r=0

http://www.ktsm.com/news/former-ep-o...-ticket-quotas

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/h...EfrxdIbP9Xit8K

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/07/29...ticket-quotas/

http://www.nashvillecriminallawrepor...otas-revealed/

http://www.newschannel5.com/story/12...people-or-else

Out here in Oceanside, there's a neat little place for motor officers on BMWs no less, to sit and write tickets until their hand gets tired. And what gives credence to the notion of quotas is that like clockwork, you'll see them sitting there with lasers and a ticket book the last three days of the month. Maybe it's just a coincidence.
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  #69  
Old Sep 3rd, 2013, 6:35 pm
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Re: Bad decision

Quote:
Originally Posted by gphusky1
The dealership I frequent does service work for many law enforcement agencies and just about any day you'll find an officer or two milling about. Being that I always like to strike up conversations with people, I frequently ask these guys about parts of the traffic code I don't understand and they for the most part are very informed and if they are unsure, they have this neat little book where they can look up the vehicle code.

Anyway, I asked more than one officer if there were any "quotas" they had to meet. With some it's a "no" in a very natural and conversational tone. With others, you get a pause, a stammer and then a no...we don't have quotas. One of those guys I know best said that his department does not have quotas...but supervisors can easily look at the numbers and call into the office any officer that's not meeting what would normally be expected.

He went on to say quotas are against the law but "in general" departments that he has worked for use words like "contacts", "goals", "activity targets" and "benchmarks" and with a wink and a nod LEOs know what's been conveyed.

Now to say that quotas are non-existent, you only need to follow these links...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...p_ref=new-york

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/10/ny...anted=all&_r=0

http://www.ktsm.com/news/former-ep-o...-ticket-quotas

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/h...EfrxdIbP9Xit8K

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/07/29...ticket-quotas/

http://www.nashvillecriminallawrepor...otas-revealed/

http://www.newschannel5.com/story/12...people-or-else

Out here in Oceanside, there's a neat little place for motor officers on BMWs no less, to sit and write tickets until their hand gets tired. And what gives credence to the notion of quotas is that like clockwork, you'll see them sitting there with lasers and a ticket book the last three days of the month. Maybe it's just a coincidence.
In science, that's called confirmation bias. That is, you search for the stories to support your hypothesis, but, in this case, you ignore the 100,000 other jurisdictions where it may or may not happen.

Nevertheless, bring it up with Solo. He's the one disputing your allegation.
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  #70  
Old Sep 3rd, 2013, 6:42 pm
Ponch Ponch is offline
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Re: Bad decision

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeftCoastMan
In science, that's called confirmation bias. That is, you search for the stories to support your hypothesis, but, in this case, you ignore the 100,000 other jurisdictions where it may or may not happen.

Nevertheless, bring it up with Solo. He's the one disputing your allegation.
Again, it's always versus never. It happens in some places and not in others. The truth is kind of like that.
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  #71  
Old Sep 3rd, 2013, 7:43 pm
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Re: Bad decision

I believe that quotas exist but they will not be called quotas because the public doesn't like the word so they are performance measures of some sort. I understand the need for measuring the effectiveness of employees in any organizations and numbers make this simple in most instances, i.e. you make widgets you can say you need to make one a minute and most people would not argue this. Measuring the work done by someone like a teacher, police officer, doctor, repair technician or any job were the employee has tasks that are not the same each time is harder. Using numbers to measure those profession makes it easy for those employees being measured to manipulate the system teachers teach the test, police officer write enough tickets to stay under the radar and technicians stretch their jobs to fill the allotted time. With law enforcement this results in ineffective use of time.

Gerhard
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  #72  
Old Sep 3rd, 2013, 8:27 pm
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Re: Bad decision

Who cares if police officers are expected to write tickets? If I'm traveling at or only 4 mph above the speed limit I'll never be ticketed and have often been sighted by leos at well over that speed and not ticketed. Warned, perhaps.

There are always plenty of excessive speeders on the roads if an officer has a need to write tickets. I can avoid being the recipient by staying close to speed limits unless I'm in the middle of nowhere with no traffic for miles in any direction.

I support the efforts of law enforcement. I've never been mistreated by a leo in many, many years of driving. On the contrary, I've had more second chances than I've deserved.

Law enforcement is a tough job. An officer faces challenges most of us would be unwilling or unable to accept.
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Old Sep 3rd, 2013, 8:59 pm
Ponch Ponch is offline
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Re: Bad decision

Quote:
Originally Posted by gerhard
I believe that quotas exist but they will not be called quotas because the public doesn't like the word so they are performance measures of some sort. I understand the need for measuring the effectiveness of employees in any organizations and numbers make this simple in most instances, i.e. you make widgets you can say you need to make one a minute and most people would not argue this. Measuring the work done by someone like a teacher, police officer, doctor, repair technician or any job were the employee has tasks that are not the same each time is harder. Using numbers to measure those profession makes it easy for those employees being measured to manipulate the system teachers teach the test, police officer write enough tickets to stay under the radar and technicians stretch their jobs to fill the allotted time. With law enforcement this results in ineffective use of time.

Gerhard
Look up parkinson's law.
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  #74  
Old Sep 3rd, 2013, 9:02 pm
Ponch Ponch is offline
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Re: Bad decision

Quote:
Originally Posted by HBarlow
Who cares if police officers are expected to write tickets? If I'm traveling at or only 4 mph above the speed limit I'll never be ticketed and have often been sighted by leos at well over that speed and not ticketed. Warned, perhaps.

There are always plenty of excessive speeders on the roads if an officer has a need to write tickets. I can avoid being the recipient by staying close to speed limits unless I'm in the middle of nowhere with no traffic for miles in any direction.

I support the efforts of law enforcement. I've never been mistreated by a leo in many, many years of driving. On the contrary, I've had more second chances than I've deserved.

Law enforcement is a tough job. An officer faces challenges most of us would be unwilling or unable to accept.
Like anything else in life, there's good and bad. As far as not getting a ticket for 4 over, I've know of cops that ticket for 1 over. Windsor Heights PD in Iowa. Real machers when it comes to revenue. There are so many barney fifedoms in Iowa that the state graces 2 speeders a year if the speeds are under 10 over. In some places it's all about the money.
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  #75  
Old Sep 3rd, 2013, 9:08 pm
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gphusky1 gphusky1 is offline
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Re: Bad decision

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeftCoastMan
In science, that's called confirmation bias. That is, you search for the stories to support your hypothesis, but, in this case, you ignore the 100,000 other jurisdictions where it may or may not happen.

Nevertheless, bring it up with Solo. He's the one disputing your allegation.
I don't stand in opposition to Solo6. I don't have any reason not to believe him. It's entirely possible that the CHP does not have "quotas".

My point, inconveniently supported with evidence to the contrary (not a hypothesis), is that in this day and age, even with 100,000 jurisdictions (your arbitrary number) NOT engaging in the quota system...doesn't mean it doesn't exist. In the old days, laymen would call this type of thinking "sticking your head in the sand".

I think you admonished Ponch by idly dismissing his story about quotas as something that happened 25 years ago. I simply brought up evidence to the contrary. One of those "Inconvenient Truths" I guess.

When evidence to the contrary is put on the table and the people decide not to believe it, the antithesis of "Confirmation Bias" is called the "Backfire Effect". Essentially, when people are shown evidence contradictory to their beliefs they tend to become even more entrenched in their incorrect initial belief.

I learned a long time ago there are no absolutes in life and thus no one can say with any certainty that quotas don't exist....it's possible they do as a number of municipalities are wrapped up in litigation over that very issue.

Heck the most liberal newspaper in the US...the New York Times...ran an article at...http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/10/ny...anted=all&_r=0 under the heading of "Secret Tape Has Police Pressing Ticket Quotas". Click on the link, read the article and see if it's reasonable to assume the "quota" system was in play there. Granted, this was back in 2010 when the story broke, but without that tape that precinct could simply say...nope, we don't have quotas. Any reasonable person, open to truth, no matter how much it goes against one's belief system, has to acknowledge that in this specific case, quotas were being discussed.

If a person can't see that, they are free to put their head back in the sand.
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1974 Husky 250 Mag, 1975 Husky 250 GP, 1976 Husky 360 GP
1977 Husky 250 and 390 GP, 1982.5 Husky 500 Silver Streak
1974 Yamaha Ty250 Trials bike, 1971 Honda CB 175
1971 Yamaha 100 Enduro, 1970 Minibike with a "Clinton Engine" (my first bike)

.... a 2011 BMW R1200RT in Thunder Grey Metallic and a 2014 F800GS-Adventure in red.

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  #76  
Old Sep 3rd, 2013, 10:28 pm
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Gruivis Gruivis is offline
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Re: Bad decision

One more insurance consideration - Diminished Value.

Lets say a claim is submitted and denied. The insurance company will take note of the damage and calculate a new value for the vehicle. Some time later a cement truck rolls over the parked bike smashing it flat. Surprise, you now only get a check for the reduced value.

Having said that I still recommend filing a claim unless you know for a fact that the claim will be denied.
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Old Sep 3rd, 2013, 11:55 pm
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Re: Bad decision

Quote:
Originally Posted by gphusky1
Out here in Oceanside, there's a neat little place for motor officers on BMWs no less, to sit and write tickets until their hand gets tired. And what gives credence to the notion of quotas is that like clockwork, you'll see them sitting there with lasers and a ticket book the last three days of the month. Maybe it's just a coincidence.
Okay, so when those same media outlets think that all motorcycle riders are squids and 1%ers, that must be true also?

And no, it's not a coincidence that traffic cops in a military town are active in the first and last several days of the month. When you're hunting, you go where the game is and you go when it's there. The city council, police commission, etc wants a "strong first impression" so that newcomers will know from the beginning that they can't be Ricky Racer on the local streets.

I will point out also that there is always a competition between traffic cops, to get the best story, the most miles, write the highest speed violation, the most citations per hour or day, etc. None of these is a "quota."

Once again, I will tell you that we don't NEED quotas. It's the other way around -- I have to practice "selective enforcement," going for those who really need it rather than every violation that I see.

Even when there's a "push," all we're told is that TPTB want us to "do something about _______," filling in the blanks with whatever group they think is causing problems. They don't tell us to bring back X number of citations of people burning through school zones or whatever.
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Old Sep 4th, 2013, 12:19 am
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Re: Bad decision

Quote:
Originally Posted by HBarlow
Who cares if police officers are expected to write tickets? If I'm traveling at or only 4 mph above the speed limit I'll never be ticketed
YMMV. Most of the time, it just depends on what the TO sees when you attract his or her attention. If you look like someone he thinks is worthy of 5 minutes, you'll get stopped for as little as 1 over.

Likewise, if you are in the middle of a "push," where we've been told to "do something about speeding motorcycles," and you're pulling away fast from a stop, or pulling ahead of traffic, you'll get stopped.

MOST of the time, someone who is riding or driving SAFELY gets 10% "tolerance," simply because we're after the UNsafe operators, but you can't count on that. It's like "courtesy cards" that some people wave around. In some agencies, a person might be given a card by an officer, detective, whatever, and think that it's supposed to get them out of trouble. An NYPD traffic officer might be shown a Homicide detective's card, then see a little mark which means that the bearer was helpful (or inconvenienced) and the department owes the guy a favor. Seeing that, the traffic cop will take the card and ignore a minor infraction (nothing major, though).

I've had drivers wave business cards at me, but we don't play that game around here.
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Old Sep 4th, 2013, 12:31 am
Solo6 Solo6 is offline
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Re: Bad decision

Quote:
Originally Posted by gphusky1
Heck the most liberal newspaper in the US...the New York Times...ran an article at...http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/10/ny...anted=all&_r=0 under the heading of "Secret Tape Has Police Pressing Ticket Quotas". Click on the link, read the article
It didn't work for me, but when you read it, look for anything saying specifically that a cop has to write a certain number of citations or face punishment of some sort. Any "weasel words" in the article (such as "they told us to write more tickets") isn't the same thing.
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Old Sep 4th, 2013, 12:34 am
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Re: Bad decision

Well based on the last 16 posts here, it's clear that the majority believes welding is the answer to the original question.
Or was is JB Weld?
Oh hell, now I forget.
Never mind.
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Old Sep 4th, 2013, 3:35 am
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gphusky1 gphusky1 is offline
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Re: Bad decision

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solo6
It didn't work for me, but when you read it, look for anything saying specifically that a cop has to write a certain number of citations or face punishment of some sort. Any "weasel words" in the article (such as "they told us to write more tickets") isn't the same thing.
Here's the link again...

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/10/ny...nted=all&_r=1&

...just copy and paste.

According to the New York Times, here's some excerpts of what was on the tape...

" On the tape, a police captain, Alex Perez, can be heard warning his top commanders that their officers must start writing more summonses or face consequences. Captain Perez offered a precise number and suggested a method. He said that officers on a particular shift should write — as a group — 20 summonses a week: five each for double-parking, parking at a bus stop, driving without a seat belt and driving while using a cellphone.

“You, as bosses, have to demand this and have to count it,” Captain Perez said, citing pressure from top police officials. At another point, Captain Perez emphasized his willingness to punish officers who do not meet the targets, saying, “I really don’t have a problem firing people.”

In another section....

“Your goal is five in each of these categories, not a difficult task to accomplish on Monday,” he added. “If it’s not accomplished by Monday, you’ve got to follow up with it on Tuesday. But there’s no reason it can’t be done by Thursday. So whatever I get by Friday, Saturday, Sunday is gravy. I’m not looking to break records here, but there is no reason we should be losing this number by 30 a week.”

No "WEASEL" words here.

Isolated, probably...but the notion that quotos is a myth is probably dispelled after reading the article in its entirety.
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Old Sep 4th, 2013, 3:58 am
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Re: Bad decision

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solo6
Okay, so when those same media outlets think that all motorcycle riders are squids and 1%ers, that must be true also?
What media outlets? I'm an employee of the local ABC affiliate in San Diego and most of the time you deal with facts (except in sweeps), so with that said, what media outlets think that all motorcycle riders are "squids"? Name one. Otherwise like you said in another post, it's just "weasel words"

I was a Broadcast Journalist in the Navy from 1977 through 1982. I was a "Squid" and I rode motorcycles so that notion is not entirely untrue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solo6
And no, it's not a coincidence that traffic cops in a military town are active in the first and last several days of the month. When you're hunting, you go where the game is and you go when it's there.
I've lived here in this house for 20 years and drive the same piece of road over and over. If the motorcycle cops were out lets say...every day or every other day because they have the public's best interest in mind and need to clamp down on speeding I wouldn't think a quota system. But that's not the facts here. They come out the last couple of days of the month. Why, because it's like shooting fish in a barrel in that location. Not only one motorcycle cop, I've seen up to 3. And as you mentioned, you go when its there...well it's there EVERY day, right at the western terminus of State Route 76. 76 is a main feeder artery from Interstate 15 to the east. Day in, day out...chock full of commuter traffic. Cops only appear at the end of the month...and that's a fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solo6
The city council, police commission, etc wants a "strong first impression" so that newcomers will know from the beginning that they can't be Ricky Racer on the local streets.
Without a doubt, Oceanside is a tourist destination, but tourists head towards downtown, the pier and the beach. Not where we're talking about. Oddly enough, in the downtown area they rarely run speed enforcement. They are too busy with gangs, drugs and vagrants.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solo6
I will point out also that there is always a competition between traffic cops, to get the best story, the most miles, write the highest speed violation, the most citations per hour or day, etc. None of these is a "quota."
Sound more like a game than law enforcement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solo6
Once again, I will tell you that we don't NEED quotas. It's the other way around -- I have to practice "selective enforcement," going for those who really need it rather than every violation that I see.
And that's probably why you're one of the good guys. Plenty of good guys in good departments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solo6
Even when there's a "push," all we're told is that TPTB want us to "do something about _______," filling in the blanks with whatever group they think is causing problems. They don't tell us to bring back X number of citations of people burning through school zones or whatever.
Well that would be against the law if they did. Again, I'm not trying to say that all departments have quotas, nor am I saying a few have them. I'm saying, given the evidence from reputable news organizations who are certainly bound by libel laws of which I've sat through classes on, they have uncovered dirty little secrets. I also understand that since police officers are a small community and they protect their own, so it's of no surprise that it's hard for some to believe in the possibility of quotas at other locations.

Read the article and decide for yourself.

Thank you for your service to the community.
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Old Sep 4th, 2013, 9:20 am
Ponch Ponch is offline
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Re: Bad decision

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solo6
YMMV. Most of the time, it just depends on what the TO sees when you attract his or her attention. If you look like someone he thinks is worthy of 5 minutes, you'll get stopped for as little as 1 over.

Likewise, if you are in the middle of a "push," where we've been told to "do something about speeding motorcycles," and you're pulling away fast from a stop, or pulling ahead of traffic, you'll get stopped.

MOST of the time, someone who is riding or driving SAFELY gets 10% "tolerance," simply because we're after the UNsafe operators, but you can't count on that. It's like "courtesy cards" that some people wave around. In some agencies, a person might be given a card by an officer, detective, whatever, and think that it's supposed to get them out of trouble. An NYPD traffic officer might be shown a Homicide detective's card, then see a little mark which means that the bearer was helpful (or inconvenienced) and the department owes the guy a favor. Seeing that, the traffic cop will take the card and ignore a minor infraction (nothing major, though).

I've had drivers wave business cards at me, but we don't play that game around here.
I had a PBA card with her badge #. It got me out of a few things.
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  #84  
Old Sep 4th, 2013, 9:41 am
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Re: Bad decision

I think everyone is only thinking a hard number when people say "quotas".
Even though a number is not mentioned by a supervisor, there IS an unwritten and mostly unspoken line an officer must keep their numbers at or above.

In my 40 years in law enforcement I've seen it as 20/50 or 20/100 for the number of moving/ parking summonses per month. That's an absolute minimum, something that doesn't get you called into the Lt's office. That's in a smallish town (New Jersey) in a somewhat urban area for an officer on general patrol, also answering calls, etc.
( Definitely Not a traffic bureau guy. These guys, not in a smallish town, but highway cops write 150 a day. )

20 "movers" a month works out to only 1 per 8 hour shift. I think everyone agrees that's entirely doable, maybe its doable every hour some would say. There has to be some accountability in every job. If you were a car salesman and sold zero cars in a month, should the dealership keep looking the other way? Would you want to be a taxpayer in a town where the cops earn 100K a year and someone didn't write a single summons or make a single arrest? I don't think so.
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Old Sep 4th, 2013, 11:41 am
Ponch Ponch is offline
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Re: Bad decision

Quote:
Originally Posted by George_S
I think everyone is only thinking a hard number when people say "quotas".
Even though a number is not mentioned by a supervisor, there IS an unwritten and mostly unspoken line an officer must keep their numbers at or above.

In my 40 years in law enforcement I've seen it as 20/50 or 20/100 for the number of moving/ parking summonses per month. That's an absolute minimum, something that doesn't get you called into the Lt's office. That's in a smallish town (New Jersey) in a somewhat urban area for an officer on general patrol, also answering calls, etc.
( Definitely Not a traffic bureau guy. These guys, not in a smallish town, but highway cops write 150 a day. )

20 "movers" a month works out to only 1 per 8 hour shift. I think everyone agrees that's entirely doable, maybe its doable every hour some would say. There has to be some accountability in every job. If you were a car salesman and sold zero cars in a month, should the dealership keep looking the other way? Would you want to be a taxpayer in a town where the cops earn 100K a year and someone didn't write a single summons or make a single arrest? I don't think so.
It all depends. Did anyone break the law? If the supposition is that someone has to break the law, where does that lead? Using a priori logic and setting up "goals" can lead to all sorts of bad things in some situations. I suppose an answer to this is to use traffic cameras. Then there isn't much wiggle room and guilt is assumed and it frees up cops to do other things. It just seems to me that in the last 10 years or so we've become a more punitive and authoritarian society. Liberty versus the perception of safety is a hard choice for some. Not me.

So, how do you feel about "Pre-Crime"?
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Old Sep 4th, 2013, 11:47 am
Solo6 Solo6 is offline
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Re: Bad decision

Quote:
Originally Posted by gphusky1
No "WEASEL" words here.

Isolated, probably...but the notion that quotos is a myth is probably dispelled after reading the article in its entirety.
Nope, no weasel words there. I'd be interested in knowing where the number came from, but I'll admit defeat and just say that corrupt agencies do corrupt things.
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Old Sep 4th, 2013, 12:14 pm
Ponch Ponch is offline
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Re: Bad decision

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solo6
Nope, no weasel words there. I'd be interested in knowing where the number came from, but I'll admit defeat and just say that corrupt agencies do corrupt things.
Which is to say not all agencies are corrupt. Take New Orleans for instance and Louisiana in law enforcement in general... at least it's worse somewhere else. For me, I get the Sheriff Joe show where I live.
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Old Sep 4th, 2013, 12:27 pm
Solo6 Solo6 is offline
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Re: Bad decision

Quote:
Originally Posted by gphusky1
What media outlets? I'm an employee of the local ABC affiliate in San Diego and most of the time you deal with facts (except in sweeps), so with that said, what media outlets think that all motorcycle riders are "squids"? Name one. Otherwise like you said in another post, it's just "weasel words"
Is that the same ABC affiliate in San Diego which reported on the arrest of a guy carrying a semi-automatic revolver when I was there a couple of months ago?

It's not enough to DEAL with facts, you also have to KNOW the facts. A lot of reporters don't take the time to get them.

Quote:
I've lived here in this house for 20 years and drive the same piece of road over and over. If the motorcycle cops were out lets say...every day or every other day because they have the public's best interest in mind and need to clamp down on speeding I wouldn't think a quota system. But that's not the facts here. They come out the last couple of days of the month. Why, because it's like shooting fish in a barrel in that location. Not only one motorcycle cop, I've seen up to 3. And as you mentioned, you go when its there...well it's there EVERY day, right at the western terminus of State Route 76. 76 is a main feeder artery from Interstate 15 to the east. Day in, day out...chock full of commuter traffic. Cops only appear at the end of the month...and that's a fact.
What do you think motorcops do all day long? If there are that many citations just waiting for someone to write them, why would your local cops wait to the end of the month to meet a quota? Do you not see them except three days a month?

Like I said, it's obvious whether or not a traffic cop is doing the job.

Why are you surprised to see "up to 3" motorcops in one area? We like to talk to each other, swap rumors, etc. When I was in a Really Big City, after roll call we'd go out to work the diamond lanes, 3 or 4 motors at one onramp, 3 or 4 at a different ramp. Just like a taxi stand, the first up took the next citation. That's because there was a constant push going on the diamonds during rush hour. On a recent visit, I saw that they still do it, decades later, except now they also watch for seat belts and cell phone usage.

The moral of that story is that we work at the direction of whatever government writes the paycheck. If it's a priority for the Oceanside City Council to push that spot you're talking about, it will be pushed.

Consider, though, that you locals know about this spot, and that you will see a lot of traffic cops there, so it's a place to collect tourists and transfers.

Quote:
Sound more like a game than law enforcement.
Traffic enforcement IS a game. On one side we have individuals who drive too fast or too stupid, on the other we have a team whose goal is to stop them from doing so.

Quote:
Well that would be against the law if they did.
Actually, that would depend on the way it's put. If I told my guys "Write me three center-line crossovers every shift," that would be illegal. If I said "Let's write every center-line crossover we see," that's perfectly legal.

Quote:
given the evidence from reputable news organizations
I say there are no quotas, you say there are reputable news organizations. Looks like we're about even here.

Quote:
who are certainly bound by libel laws of which I've sat through classes on, they have uncovered dirty little secrets.
Some of that is your interpretation, though -- it is the tendency of newspeople to put the worst spin on things.

Quote:
I also understand that since police officers are a small community and they protect their own, so it's of no surprise that it's hard for some to believe in the possibility of quotas at other locations.
I find it hard to believe, simply because there's NO POINT in quotas, any more than there is any point in newsmen lying to make a story out of nothing.
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Old Sep 4th, 2013, 2:25 pm
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gphusky1 gphusky1 is offline
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Re: Bad decision

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solo6
Is that the same ABC affiliate in San Diego which reported on the arrest of a guy carrying a semi-automatic revolver when I was there a couple of months ago?
It could be. Many of the reporters there don't know the first thing about weapons. I've given then many lessons over the years after they reported a guy carrying a .30-30 revolver. I would have to reporters do make mistakes, just like cops.

Remember when ex-cop Richard Dormer went on a killing rampage? Remember when 7 LAPD officers put over 100 rounds into a Blue Toyota Tacoma mistaking it for Dormer's gray Nissan Titan, and shooting the 47 year old driver twice in the back and injuring her 71 year old mother. Mistake...absolutely...by trained LAPD officers no less. I suspect they were carrying semi-autos with 15 round clips. 7x15 is 105. So essentially they mistook two women delivering newspapers for one black man in an entirely different class of truck and unloaded their guns in that general direction which cost the City of Los Angeles $4.2 million dollars. Was that a mistake...yep...worse than misidentifying a gun...yep. Offsetting penalties I guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solo6
IIt's not enough to DEAL with facts, you also have to KNOW the facts. A lot of reporters don't take the time to get them.
I agree, reporters should have a basic understanding of revolver vs semi-auto as should the cops. I was out on a story about 5 years ago when a police spokesman told a gaggle of reporters that the bad guy that was holed up in a house and subsequently killed by SWAT had an "unlicensed" machine gun...which in the end turned out to be a semi-automatic Ruger 10-22. Anyone can make a mistake...not just reporters, who by the way aren't trained to identify weapons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solo6
What do you think motorcops do all day long? If there are that many citations just waiting for someone to write them, why would your local cops wait to the end of the month to meet a quota? Do you not see them except three days a month?
Good question and one that I'm unqualified to answer. I don't know what they do all day but I do know they don't hang out in the "shooting fish in a barrel" area. As I said earlier, they aren't there (and I could provide a photo of the area) except towards the end of the month.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solo6
Why are you surprised to see "up to 3" motorcops in one area? We like to talk to each other, swap rumors, etc. When I was in a Really Big City, after roll call we'd go out to work the diamond lanes, 3 or 4 motors at one onramp, 3 or 4 at a different ramp. Just like a taxi stand, the first up took the next citation. That's because there was a constant push going on the diamonds during rush hour. On a recent visit, I saw that they still do it, decades later, except now they also watch for seat belts and cell phone usage.
Oceanside is a relatively big place. We have two major east-west routes running through it as well as the north - south Interstate 5 and a population of 170,000 or so. When I see as many as three motorcycle cops lined up towards the end of the month, first I think quota and then I wonder why just there. Surely other parts of the city need coverage don't you think.

And on a side note, in a city that experiences the crime at a higher level than surrounding cities, if I were running the show I'd weigh the benefit of writing traffic citations against kids getting murdered in local parks and say..maybe we ought to get these trained police officers off their bikes and into patrol cars and do some old fashioned policing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solo6
The moral of that story is that we work at the direction of whatever government writes the paycheck. If it's a priority for the Oceanside City Council to push that spot you're talking about, it will be pushed.
Possibly, but the City Council of Oceanside and the police are always at odds over pay and benefits and they aren't friends. They have a so called hate-hate relationship. So I think if the Mayor called up the Police Chief and told him how to distribute his officers and how to do his job, the Police Chief probably wouldn't listen. Who would.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solo6
Consider, though, that you locals know about this spot, and that you will see a lot of traffic cops there, so it's a place to collect tourists and transfers.
As I mentioned earlier, this isn't an area where the tourists go. It's a place locals have to traverse.

Let me set the stage here a bit and explain this area. Heading westbound, you pull a slight grade to the top of the hill...a car is under power and even if you're doing the speed limit, when you crest the hill and start a down the other side you pick up speed until you let your foot off the gas. Just at the crest of the hill there's a change in direction where the road curves to the left as it starts to go downhill. About 800 feet from this point is a traffic light. At that traffic light, nestled next to the "Jersey Barrier" at the end of the month sits motorcycle cops with LIDAR. So you're cresting the hill, you can't see the cops, you've picked up too much speed and bam you're nailed. It's a perfect place to write tickets, easy peasy. Now right over the officers shoulder on I-5, people are doing 85-90 as they fly through Camp Pendleton. Much worse infractions are going on there, but the OCPD has a sweet spot and at the end of the month, you can be sure they'll be there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solo6
Traffic enforcement IS a game. On one side we have individuals who drive too fast or too stupid, on the other we have a team whose goal is to stop them from doing so.
What I was referring to was your statement... "I will point out also that there is always a competition between traffic cops, to get the best story, the most miles, write the highest speed violation, the most citations per hour or day, etc."

That's what seems to be a game to me. Having a team whose goal is to stop people from driving too fast or too stupid is called your job. Professional police officers shouldn't be making a game out of something so serious....just saying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solo6
Actually, that would depend on the way it's put. If I told my guys "Write me three center-line crossovers every shift," that would be illegal. If I said "Let's write every center-line crossover we see," that's perfectly legal.
Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solo6
I say there are no quotas, you say there are reputable news organizations. Looks like we're about even here.
That's not what I'm saying and I'm beginning to think you're not reading or understanding what I'm writing.

The genesis of this entire thread as been to show that there are no absolutes and I offered some examples where police departments have been caught on tape talking about quotas and punishments for not meeting them. YOU DIDN'T RESPOND TO THAT. Instead, you turn it around and criticize the news media for the anecdotal occurrence of a reporter not being able to identify a gun and "indict" the entire news media for the mistake of one reporter. I never indicted the entire police establishment for the act of shooting up a couple of women delivering papers and I mentioned that I don't think the vast majority of police departments use quotas...but when someone makes the statement that there are NO quotas, it was easy to pull up story ofter story (which you didn't respond to) of that very thing, usually brought to the forefront by a fellow cop. It's the trained police officers who say there are quotas that give the story weight. Well then people can say that cop has an axe to grind and we shouldn't believe what he's saying or the news media doesn't know what they are doing and we shouldn't believe them. It gets to the point where it sounds like a 5 year old with his hand in the cookie jar telling mom he's not after cookies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solo6
Some of that is your interpretation, though -- it is the tendency of newspeople to put the worst spin on things.
Everything you and I do is interpreted and filtered through our experiences. But I will agree the news distills everything that happens in a news day down to 22 minutes, 30 seconds and news consumers get a skewed vision of the world we live in. The old adage in the news business is "If it bleeds it leads" and usually the worst things come right off the top of the show.

While I partially agree about spin, it's not always a component. Sometimes stories just don't need spin, they stand on their own.

Bottom line as far as the news business goes which is different than city, state and government jobs, is that news organizations have to make a profit. With that in mind, they go after stories that will hold viewer interest. Sure, the news biz could fill newscast with stories about fuzzy animals and people picking up trash on the beach, but they'd quickly go out of business. The media provides just what the consumer wants, which most of the time is dark. Consumers have an macabre appetite for murders, rapes, car crashes, shootings, gang violence, drownings and especially guys who kidnap and rape 3 women, hold them in his house for 10 years, the trial and just yesterday the guys suicide. Nothing socially redeeming about that story, but people want to know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solo6
I find it hard to believe, simply because there's NO POINT in quotas, any more than there is any point in newsmen lying to make a story out of nothing.
Well again, I would agree, but I find it odd that this thread where we were discussing the possibility of quotas has been turned around and somehow got the media involved. Usually when the discussion doesn't stay on point, one side or the other side has a weak argument so they deflect and start a new argument. Liberal Progressives (that doesn't refer to you) use this tactic all the time so they don't have to answer the question.

But if you want to continue the "media" theme, I'm smart enough and been around long enough to say with certainty, that all the criticisms you have for the media are anecdotally true. I don't think on a whole the entire industry is bad, but mistakes are made.

Similarly, I think that from what I read and what I see, I think quotas are in play in some cases. I don't think it's widespread and I wouldn't even criticize our own OCPD although I think something is afoot.

I would again invite you to go back, read the New York Times article about quotas and punishments for not reaching those quotas and see if you can open yourself up to the possibility that quotas are in play in some parts of the country. Police management isn't beyond doing something illegal and we could open up a whole line of discussion on corruption in police departments across the country, but I'd rather just keep it on point and discuss quotas...because nothing gets a cop more riled up than talking about quotas. It's almost the equivalent of calling someone the N-Word.

Again, I respect your service to the community and thank you for keeping us all safe.
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40+ Vintage 125cc Motocross bikes (1973-1974) - my collection
1974 Husky 250 Mag, 1975 Husky 250 GP, 1976 Husky 360 GP
1977 Husky 250 and 390 GP, 1982.5 Husky 500 Silver Streak
1974 Yamaha Ty250 Trials bike, 1971 Honda CB 175
1971 Yamaha 100 Enduro, 1970 Minibike with a "Clinton Engine" (my first bike)

.... a 2011 BMW R1200RT in Thunder Grey Metallic and a 2014 F800GS-Adventure in red.

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  #90  
Old Sep 4th, 2013, 3:18 pm
Ponch Ponch is offline
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Re: Bad decision

Quote:
Originally Posted by gphusky1
It could be. Many of the reporters there don't know the first thing about weapons. I've given then many lessons over the years after they reported a guy carrying a .30-30 revolver. I would have to reporters do make mistakes, just like cops.

Remember when ex-cop Richard Dormer went on a killing rampage? Remember when 7 LAPD officers put over 100 rounds into a Blue Toyota Tacoma mistaking it for Dormer's gray Nissan Titan, and shooting the 47 year old driver twice in the back and injuring her 71 year old mother. Mistake...absolutely...by trained LAPD officers no less. I suspect they were carrying semi-autos with 15 round clips. 7x15 is 105. So essentially they mistook two women delivering newspapers for one black man in an entirely different class of truck and unloaded their guns in that general direction which cost the City of Los Angeles $4.2 million dollars. Was that a mistake...yep...worse than misidentifying a gun...yep. Offsetting penalties I guess.
And to add insult to injury, they offered her something like $40K and that was before taxes. Nuts. I guess they figured what the heck, the greater fool...In NY, there was a shooting of a murder suspect and the officers emptied their pistols, killing the perp, but hitting bystanders too, and they weren't far away from the perp...IMO, the high capacity weapons encourage spray and pray. If you have 5-6 or may be 7 like with a 1911, each shot means a little more if you know what I mean.

Anyway, the truth to these things is always somewhere in the middle. Cops, bureaucrats and politicians are people too and there are good and bad like anywhere else. To that extent, I am sure some departments have quotas, others do not. Having such could have to do with accountability vis a vis budget and funding or it can be a revenue stream. That said, it is what it is. I can't change it and neither can anyone else. Act accordingly...

My own experience has been somewhat divergent. On one hand I've had more speeding tickets in my life than any three people combined. Lost my license 2x when I was young. On the other hand, my mom's dad and one of her brothers were Nassau County cops. There was a certain amount of hero worship of cops growing up, yet my mom strongly discouraged my brother and I of pursuing that profession because she thought it didn't promote a good home life due to the shifts etc. Funny thing is I dated a NYC cop at one point and I think I would have been good at it, but even I admit I am not always the most disciplined of people (I did do an internship with legal aid, worked as a child abuse investigator and for a bail bond at points in my life). The job isn't easy and they are exposed to a lot of stuff most of us are not. Thing is, like most things it's voluntary, so we all chose our fates... I guess the point is that let's give it a break. I don't think we are going anywhere with this at least anywhere good and that's coming from me.
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  #91  
Old Sep 4th, 2013, 5:01 pm
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MyEleanor MyEleanor is offline
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Re: Bad decision

Hmmm. I think my computer must be busted or my browser is on the fritz. This URL USED to be linked to a forum that talked about R1200RT's, not politics. Maybe if I search real hard, I can find that site and ask my motorcycle-related questions without turning into a political debate.
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  #92  
Old Sep 5th, 2013, 2:36 am
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gphusky1 gphusky1 is offline
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Re: Bad decision

Quote:
Originally Posted by MyEleanor
Hmmm. I think my computer must be busted or my browser is on the fritz. This URL USED to be linked to a forum that talked about R1200RT's, not politics. Maybe if I search real hard, I can find that site and ask my motorcycle-related questions without turning into a political debate.
Sarcasm...I love it. Yes, your computer is busted, throw it away and buy another one.

No politics here, no political parties, just a spirited discussion about police officers on R1200RTs down here in Oceanside and quotas that kind of meandered along.. Leave a thread around long enough and that tends to happen.

To get your motorcycle related questions asked, just point your browser to..

http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=46

...and ask away. Plenty of knowledgeable guys that can help you sort out all BMW related questions.

Thanks to all who participated in the great "quota" debate without getting your butt hurt.
__________________
40+ Vintage 125cc Motocross bikes (1973-1974) - my collection
1974 Husky 250 Mag, 1975 Husky 250 GP, 1976 Husky 360 GP
1977 Husky 250 and 390 GP, 1982.5 Husky 500 Silver Streak
1974 Yamaha Ty250 Trials bike, 1971 Honda CB 175
1971 Yamaha 100 Enduro, 1970 Minibike with a "Clinton Engine" (my first bike)

.... a 2011 BMW R1200RT in Thunder Grey Metallic and a 2014 F800GS-Adventure in red.

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  #93  
Old Sep 5th, 2013, 11:53 am
Ponch Ponch is offline
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Fountain Hills, AZ, USA
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Re: Bad decision

Quote:
Originally Posted by MyEleanor
Hmmm. I think my computer must be busted or my browser is on the fritz. This URL USED to be linked to a forum that talked about R1200RT's, not politics. Maybe if I search real hard, I can find that site and ask my motorcycle-related questions without turning into a political debate.
At least we aren't debating Sheriff Joe.
__________________
Ponch


"I came into this game for the action, the excitement. Go anywhere, travel light, get in, get out, wherever there's trouble, a man alone."

My Motorrad

2009 RT

Previous bikes:2007 Nomad | 2001 Vulcan 800 Classic | 1984 GPz750 | 1978 KZ1000A2

BMWMOA 162849
BMWRA 41335
VROC 8109-R
VBA 19
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