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HELP - Clutch slipping??

5K views 38 replies 16 participants last post by  dshealey 
#1 ·
Ok, I have an 03 with almost 19,000 miles on it. I have been renovating my house and not been able to ride much last year or this year. However I have got to ride a little lately and out of the blue, it seems as if my clutch is slipping. I noticed it first in higher gears when I would go to accelerate or pass someone, and last night I even noticed it a second gear trying to get up to speed. Now I must say there was zero sign of this, this was not gradual, this was very sudden. So could it be my clutches, or could it be something else. If anyone has experienced this, please let me know. I know our bikes are dry clutches and have no adjustments.
 
#2 ·
The dreaded slave cylinder failure... Or some other seal in the engine or transmission has failed and contaminated your clutch...Is your clutch reservoir low ?

Unfortunately leaving a bike sitting for a long period can accelerate the seal failures..

Time to take it apart and replace all the seals, Slave cylinder, And clutch...

Sorry....

John
 
#3 ·
Well I am second owner, bought the bike 3 years old with 4000 miles on it, so it sat then, I did ride it a decent amount for the first couple years but b/c of obligations, the last two summer's have sucked... So, I am supposed to go on a trip 800-1000 miles next weekend. Can I baby this thing thru the trip? If not or once I am back, what kinda time and money am I gonna have in replacing all these seals? I will do the work myself. Or is it time for me to trade in and upgrade, which I have been tossing around anyways.
 
#4 ·
Taking an 800-1000 mi trip on that bike in it's condition would not be a good idea. Unless your idea of a good time is having the clutch completely fail on you far from home, having to wait.... getting it towed to a dealer far away from home and waiting.... and having to travel back home by another means and wait... or stay put in a hotel in the area until it's fixed and wait... It'll end up costing you a lot more than doing it yourself or even having your local dealer fix it.
 
#5 ·
Well I appreciate the comments.. I don't feel like it is quite that bad, if I drive normal it really does not act up. However, I agree that I may not take the chance.

So with that being said. Does anyone have photos or pics or anything showing how far I gotta tear into this to get back up and running?
 
#6 ·
Hate to tell you, but, it can only get worse. The leakage will conitnue and will further damage your clutch. Even though it seems "acceptable" now, it will slip more and more.

You need to search for clutch replacement and see what you are in for. The dealer will charge around $1500.00

Pastor Jacks Clutch Replacement

This site has many who have been through it, ask questions and be well read, then if you gat the "skills", go for it!

Good luck,

Joe
 
#7 · (Edited)
Well, as usual, I'm gonna' get in big trouble here :D since this isn't an "authorized" or "accepted" way of addressing this problem, and mine had exactly the same symptoms.

Try this first:

Put the front wheel up against a VERY sturdy wall. Put the bike in second gear.

Rev the engine to about 3K and let the clutch slip almost to engagement a dozen times. You want to literally abuse it and get it HOT. Park the bike and let it cool completely. Just be ready to accept the fact that it may fail completely at any time during this drill, but much better here than on the road. If it survives you are good to go.

What you have done is temporarily "cooked" off any contamination, It will return, but when - who knows? I did this to mine 5K miles ago and it is still running strong.
Not one slip since. What I believe has happened is that any glazing that has accumulated over time is now gone. Any light oil contamination has evaporated. If you've got a slave seal failure - instead of just minor weeping - this is not going to work.

EVERYONE on this site will automatically tell you that you are screwed, glued and tattooed to the tune of $2K - and eventually you probably are. However, you have absolutely NOTHING to lose by giving this a try.
 
#8 ·
Well Ron, I know what I am gonna do... Is there anyway to get in there and stop the slave cylinder from leaking, do your procedure and be good to go?

Either way, thanks for the input, actually I had thought about taking it out and running the p*ss out of it to do the same thing.. So against the garage wall is fine with me..
 
#10 ·
RonKMiller said:
Well, as usual, I'm gonna' get in big trouble here :D since this isn't an "authorized" or "accepted" way of addressing this problem, and mine had exactly the same symptoms.

Try this first:

Put the front wheel up against a VERY sturdy wall. Put the bike in second gear.

Rev the engine to about 3K and let the clutch slip almost to engagement a dozen times. You want to literally abuse it and get it HOT. Park the bike and let it cool completely. Just be ready to accept the fact that it may fail completely at any time during this drill, but much better here than on the road. If it survives you are good to go.

What you have done is temporarily "cooked" off any contamination, It will return, but when - who knows? I did this to mine 5K miles ago and it is still running strong.
Not one slip since. What I believe has happened is that any glazing that has accumulated over time is now gone. Any light oil contamination has evaporated. If you've got a slave seal failure - instead of just minor weeping - this is not going to work.

EVERYONE on this site will automatically tell you that you are screwed, glued and tattooed to the tune of $2K - and eventually you probably are. However, you have absolutely NOTHING to lose by giving this a try.
Well, actually you do have something to lose, a couple things at least. The excessive heat can warp the pressure plate and/or flywheel surfaces and comromise the heat treatment thus ruining parts that are otherwise fine. So, insteading of replacing the leaking seals and the clutch disk, you now get to replace the entire clutch assembly.

However, your bike and you get to make the call! :)
 
#11 · (Edited)
Voyager said:
Well, actually you do have something to lose, a couple things at least. The excessive heat can warp the pressure plate and/or flywheel surfaces and comromise the heat treatment thus ruining parts that are otherwise fine. So, insteading of replacing the leaking seals and the clutch disk, you now get to replace the entire clutch assembly.

However, your bike and you get to make the call! :)
Oh no - not more "warping"! :D Why, that's impossible! :rotf:

I'm not talking about purposely trashing it... ;)

So, what specific temperature does it take to create a change in the heat treatment of alloys that are designed to handle high temperatures?

Off the top of my head I have absolutely no idea - and I'll bet you don't either. What I will venture is that you could slip that clutch all day long and not get any where NEAR it. EXACTLY why you can't create enough heat to "warp" a rotor - EVER. :rolleyes:
 
#12 ·
ron
we are lucky to have a man w' your knowledge on this forum.
i asked this question before and you forgot to answer it. how come a big cylinder head on a diesel engine CAN warp and a brake rotor or flywheel CANNOT? just asking..
thanks, john
 
#13 ·
RonKMiller said:
Oh no - not more "warping"! :D Why, that's impossible! :rotf:

I'm not talking about purposely trashing it... ;)

So, what specific temperature does it take to create a change in the heat treatment of alloys that are designed to handle high temperatures?

Off the top of my head I have absolutely no idea - and I'll bet you don't either. What I will venture is that you could slip that clutch all day long and not get any where NEAR it. EXACTLY why you can't create enough heat to "warp" a rotor - EVER. :rolleyes:
I know you aren't trying to trash it, but the "procedure" you propose has a very real chance of doing just that. I am not going down the warping path again. I provided a range of solid references before that supported that metal can and does warp. You can choose to ignore that information in favor of one opinion from one car guy. Your choice.
 
#14 ·
RonKMiller said:
Oh no - not more "warping"! :D Why, that's impossible! :rotf:
----------------------------------------------EXACTLY why you can't create enough heat to "warp" a rotor - EVER. :rolleyes:
You keep harping on that, but you are misinformed. I have read the BS link you posted before, and it is on the Internet, so it must be true. ;)

I have MEASURED warp in brake rotors with dial indicators on more than one occasion. When you see several thousandths of dial indicator movement over 1/4th to 1/3 of the rotation, with the OPPOSITE reading on the other side of the rotor, it is WARPED! It is not hard at all to EXPECT this to happen on occasion, when rotor materials are not controlled to the Nth degree. There are a lot of imported rotors that are not the best material, and with heated CAN and WILL warp. Any metal devices can warp under high heat if they are not manufactured extremely well, with the proper heat treating to stabilize them properly.

I had a good friend in San Diego that operates a brake and alignment shop, and he turns WARPED rotors often. It is very evident when watching rotor lathe in operation when a rotor has warped.
 
#15 ·
When was the last time the clutch fluid was changed? If it's been sitting without being changed, because it is so hydroscopic, it will absorb moisture, which will then cause slippage of the clutch. My 99 LT did this when I first bought it, fluid hadn't been changed in 4 years. After changing the fluid, I've NEVER had it happen again. It was worse in higher gears than starting out. This is simpler & cheaper to try before you tear into a clutch or slave cylinder. My motto is start with the simple things first. The owners manual also states to change the brake & clutch fluids every year. Try it, you can't make anything worse than it is.
 
#16 ·
OOH OOH! I just thought of another one. I once had a two burner camp stove on it's own legs and paid a guy to build a custom stainless steel griddle for it. Made of 3/16" stainless. Rolled corners, built up sides, she was a beauty. Used it the first time and the POS warped like a pretzel! There was NO WAY that little camp stove got the griddle hot enough to even come close to melting temperature and yet it was completely ruined. It had to be due to the internal stresses within the metal.

BTW, I got my $200 back.

There ya go!

Loren
 
#17 ·
sweetride said:
When was the last time the clutch fluid was changed? If it's been sitting without being changed, because it is so hydroscopic, it will absorb moisture, which will then cause slippage of the clutch. My 99 LT did this when I first bought it, fluid hadn't been changed in 4 years. After changing the fluid, I've NEVER had it happen again. It was worse in higher gears than starting out. This is simpler & cheaper to try before you tear into a clutch or slave cylinder. My motto is start with the simple things first. The owners manual also states to change the brake & clutch fluids every year. Try it, you can't make anything worse than it is.
sweetride, what you explain is 100% exact. I first noticed it only in higher gears, the other night was the first time I noticed it in second gear trying to catch up to a friend. So let me ask this, what is the easiest way to change the fluid. Also, to other's is there anyway to clean the clutch, beyond the slip method, which I believe would be fine if I was easy on it. Can you get in there without tearing the entire bike apart? Thanks in advance. I really wanna go on this trip this weekend, it will be the first decent trip with my Dad, and at this point I am extremely hesitant to go. I have went as far as looking to rent a bike.
 
#19 ·
goodemote said:
sweetride, what you explain is 100% exact. I first noticed it only in higher gears, the other night was the first time I noticed it in second gear trying to catch up to a friend. So let me ask this, what is the easiest way to change the fluid. Also, to other's is there anyway to clean the clutch, beyond the slip method, which I believe would be fine if I was easy on it. Can you get in there without tearing the entire bike apart? Thanks in advance. I really wanna go on this trip this weekend, it will be the first decent trip with my Dad, and at this point I am extremely hesitant to go. I have went as far as looking to rent a bike.
This one will get you to the clutch slave cylinder:
http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53532

This thread will show you how far into the bike you have to go to replace the clutch
http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48295&highlight=replace+clutch

Loren
 
#20 ·
My 03 LT had the clutch start slipping at 19K. I only slipped it a couple of times on the way to work and back and I tore it down and replaced it. It was coming apart. The slave leaked fluid on the clutch. I have 72K on it now and it's doing fine....... :D
 
#21 ·
I am honestly about fed up. I love the bike, the ride, the handling, the looks.. and yet I have had it for almost 4 years now and I have had more than my share of issues with it. I do all the scheduled maintenance. I have taken it to the shop (which is very costly) and had them do work I did not feel comfortable with. Complete replacement of the intercom system, while they were at it I had them change all the fluids. Do these things really cost everyone else as much or cause as much issue. I got rid of my Harley b/c I wanted something I could get on and ride and this thing keeps slapping me in the face. I am sorry to rant but it's not like I bought first gen, could they not figure out things like this (poor design - IMO). I know last year I only got to put like 600-800 miles on it and this year to date about the same, but it's not like it sat on the stand for 2 years. I called the dealer and they were very nice but parts alone are $800 and estimate on labor between $1200 and $1500. So what's next, what else am I to suspect, or should I just expect to continuely work on it?
 
#22 ·
dshealey said:
You keep harping on that, but you are misinformed. I have read the BS link you posted before, and it is on the Internet, so it must be true. ;)

I have MEASURED warp in brake rotors with dial indicators on more than one occasion. When you see several thousandths of dial indicator movement over 1/4th to 1/3 of the rotation, with the OPPOSITE reading on the other side of the rotor, it is WARPED! It is not hard at all to EXPECT this to happen on occasion, when rotor materials are not controlled to the Nth degree. There are a lot of imported rotors that are not the best material, and with heated CAN and WILL warp. Any metal devices can warp under high heat if they are not manufactured extremely well, with the proper heat treating to stabilize them properly.

I had a good friend in San Diego that operates a brake and alignment shop, and he turns WARPED rotors often. It is very evident when watching rotor lathe in operation when a rotor has warped.
David, you know that I have tremendous respect for your views, but you REALLY need to come into the 21st century. The articles that I referred to previously are only available to members of SAE. Even though I am a lowly biochemist by training I have been a member for many years. I find their technical analysis - by guys that are smarter than you or I could ever hope to be - invaluable. I don't deal in speculation, rumors or inneuendo when I take a position like this. I am simply trying to enlighten the ignorant masses. ...and I mean ignorant in the true definition: Unaware or uninformed.

IF what you say is correct I only ask for you to show me some PROOF. Not hearsay, your experience (at measuring uneven pad deposition) old wives tales or what some guy "that turns rotors" has told you. ;)

Don't you think that in all of the years there has been "warping" going on (40?) that metallurgists and engineers would have been able to figure out a way for a solid steel disc to keep from distorting? OR have they just had their heads in the sand??

Maybe you can describe to me the process of exactly how this happens? What are the physical, thermal or chemical forces at work? Surely there is an explanation - not that it just HAPPENS. All I ask for is PROOF.

Show me an article by a recognized SAE engineer that claims that rotors get even 1/1000 of an inch out of alignment due to "warping" and I will man up and publicly tell you and everyone on this forum that I was wrong - really wrong.

If you would like PM me I'll be pleased to send you the full text of these in depth analysis. I'll have to warn you that they are VERY detailed, thorough and for most folks WAY over their head. They are intriguing - and to my scientific mind - absolute incontrovertible scientific evidence.

Once you've read them and have a little bit better insight into the real cause - uneven deposition and formation of cementite inclusions - I think you'll be in my camp in heartbeat. :yeah:
 
#23 ·
sweetride said:
When was the last time the clutch fluid was changed? If it's been sitting without being changed, because it is so hydroscopic, it will absorb moisture, which will then cause slippage of the clutch. My 99 LT did this when I first bought it, fluid hadn't been changed in 4 years. After changing the fluid, I've NEVER had it happen again. It was worse in higher gears than starting out. This is simpler & cheaper to try before you tear into a clutch or slave cylinder. My motto is start with the simple things first. The owners manual also states to change the brake & clutch fluids every year. Try it, you can't make anything worse than it is.
Excellent advice.

When you hear hoof beats don't go looking for zebras.

Unfortunately the odds of him having a total failure are pretty high - which bites big time. :mad:
 
#24 ·
I had the same problem in Mar....if you go to the dealer for the repair it'll cost you ~$2K....if you do it yourself it'll cost you ~$800 and about 14 hours to do all the right seals, clutch slave cylinder, and clutch properly (with all the right tools).....with the added bonus of getting to intimately know your bike and, perhaps, getting to buy a few tools if you desire!

Here is a thread from the Tech Session we did on my bike.

and here is another thread with a document and some other reference links I created to replace the clutch and slave cylinder..

Bottom line....whether you decide to try and ride it out, try and push a wall, do your own tech session, or go to a dealer....its your choice! If you go with doing it yourself....get in touch with Denise at Bentonville BMW and use the parts matrix I've included in the reference I created for others to use....

Good luck with your decision. :bmw:
 
#25 ·
I was at Dave's (saddleman) tech session Saturday.

One thing he mentioned was IF you could drill a hole in the bell housing right below the clutch and spray a TON of brake clean (or equivalent) with the clutch disengaged, you may be able to clean all the contamination off the plates, the brake cleaner would evaporate and the hole in the housing leak any future contamination.

Will it work? YMMV, is it easier than a clutch job, for sure. Even if it doesn't work, you still have not screwed anything up and you'll probably benefit from a hole in the bell housing (like I have) to leak out any main seal leakage.

May be worth a shot and we need a guinea pig.

Good Luck.

Joe
 
#26 ·
Well I drilled a hole in my housing. Others on the site have done that before. I got the idea from another member and since it seemed easy, plus fairly harmless, I did it. I used almost a full can of carb and choke cleaner. Let me say, first of all, when I drilled, nothing came out of the housing. However once I used the cleaner, lots of black, dirty crud came out of there. It was late and I did not get to ride it but I did run the bike while I was doing this, after complete I ran the bike through the gears hoping to help clean it up. I will keep everyone posted. I do not imagine this will fix my issue forever but if I can get thru the summer I will most likely tear the bike down over the winter and fix it correctly. Maybe I just need a slave cylinder seal and I can keep from replacing the clutches.
 
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