Does a 15 RT WC have a "clean air system" or PAIR - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 
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post #1 of 18 Old Feb 7th, 2017, 8:13 pm Thread Starter
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Does a 15 RT WC have a "clean air system" or PAIR

"Make sure the clean air system is blocked (if applicable). Also called the PAIR
valve, the clean air system draws fresh air out of the air box and dumps it into the
exhaust port to help ignite any unburned fuel in the exhaust."

Wonder if the LC RT has this system? The FJR did and we had plates to cover them with and block them off, does the RT have this system in place?

Lee
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post #2 of 18 Old Feb 8th, 2017, 1:19 am
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Re: Does a 15 RT WC have a "clean air system" or PAIR

You ask to many hard questions...

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post #3 of 18 Old Feb 8th, 2017, 4:44 am
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Re: Does a 15 RT WC have a "clean air system" or PAIR

Quote:
Originally Posted by LAF View Post
"Make sure the clean air system is blocked (if applicable). Also called the PAIR
valve, the clean air system draws fresh air out of the air box and dumps it into the
exhaust port to help ignite any unburned fuel in the exhaust."

Wonder if the LC RT has this system? The FJR did and we had plates to cover them with and block them off, does the RT have this system in place?
Why would you want to make sure it is blocked? surely you would want it unblocked so that it can do its stuff.
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post #4 of 18 Old Feb 8th, 2017, 7:24 am Thread Starter
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Re: Does a 15 RT WC have a "clean air system" or PAIR

It really is just taking unburnt gasses and putting them back into the exhaust to try and re-burn them.

The reason I want to know is that can make AFR measurements inaccurate in some instances.

After removing the PAIR on my FJR trust me when I tell you it was a gunked up mess. Nasty black oil, gas, exhaust mixed together being injected back into your exhaust. It was not pretty.

I did by looking at parts diagrams we have a PCV hose but could not find the valve in any parts diagram?

Appreciate any opinions or thoughts as to where this would exist if we have such a system on a RT WC.

Lee
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post #5 of 18 Old Feb 8th, 2017, 1:02 pm
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Re: Does a 15 RT WC have a "clean air system" or PAIR

No, some of the airhead models did. Not a current technology.

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post #6 of 18 Old Feb 8th, 2017, 1:37 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Does a 15 RT WC have a "clean air system" or PAIR

We have a crankcase breather and a crank case hose that runs to the air breather box.

It is what would be our pair system I am pretty sure.

It has a breather wheel, a breather wheel cover, and you put the bike in gear to torque the breather wheel to the crankshaft with a M10 x 1 x 25 @ 40Nm.

The other end is the hose in the rear of the breather box that has a hose shooting down to the breather wheel cover which is held on by 3 bolts when removed exposes the breather wheel that is attached to the end of the crankshaft.

A bit more than the passive PAIR we put plates over on the FJR. Basically taking the four hoses that ran to the air box and eliminating them by putting a solid plate over each of the four cylinders breathing tubes.

Interesting stuff that is it a driven system on the RT.

Lee
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post #7 of 18 Old Feb 9th, 2017, 2:13 pm
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Re: Does a 15 RT WC have a "clean air system" or PAIR

Quote:
Originally Posted by beech View Post
No, some of the airhead models did. Not a current technology.
This is the correct answer.

When you have carbs there is lots of unburned fuel out the exhaust. With fuel injection, hardly ever ... in fact it would likely ruin an oxygen sensor, burning or not.

In any event, you can see the entire exhaust system and you can't see anything attached to it to do this. On the airheads, the air entered in cylinder head just behind the valve and ahead of the header pipe. Nothing there on modern bikes.

What Yamaha does is irrelevant.

Kent Christensen
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post #8 of 18 Old Feb 9th, 2017, 6:16 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Does a 15 RT WC have a "clean air system" or PAIR

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Originally Posted by lkchris View Post
This is the correct answer.

When you have carbs there is lots of unburned fuel out the exhaust. With fuel injection, hardly ever ... in fact it would likely ruin an oxygen sensor, burning or not.

In any event, you can see the entire exhaust system and you can't see anything attached to it to do this. On the airheads, the air entered in cylinder head just behind the valve and ahead of the header pipe. Nothing there on modern bikes.

What Yamaha does is irrelevant.
You are totally wrong.

If you look at what I wrote it is direct from the CD. It is there and it is doing what the PAIR system did on the Yamaha.

Since I asked the question I had to dig to find the answer.

You need to look at some motor diagrams before you proclaim you know what is what.

Really you need to look and dig before you make a statement that is pure speculation on your part with no facts. I know for a fact the RT WC has a fresh air system or PAIR as it is called on other bikes.

It is not in the exhaust on ANY bike it is in the head of the motor. As I say in the WC RT it is driven from the crank shaft.

https://www.ascycles.com/MicroList?i...me=11%20Engine Click on Engine Ventilation.

Lee
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post #9 of 18 Old Feb 9th, 2017, 9:07 pm
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Re: Does a 15 RT WC have a "clean air system" or PAIR



That's for crankcase ventilation. Hose at 2 goes to the air cleaner box, not the exhaust port. As you said, it mounts on the back of the gearbox, driven by the rear end of the crank, behind the alternator. I believe part 6 spins in order to separate some of the oil back into the crankcase before crankcase air goes to the air box, and through the intake valves.

There's a video cutaway of the LC engine here:
It seems to show everything in the engine, and I do not see any points where anything could be injected into the exhaust. I find it helps a lot to use the YouTube settings to slow it down to half or even quarter speed, otherwise there is too much going on to comprehend.

My understanding is that un-burned fuel in the exhaust would cause changes in the O2 sensor output, causing the amount of fuel to be reduced, so that there would be no need to add air or cause burning within the exhaust.

Larry
2006 R1200RT

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post #10 of 18 Old Feb 9th, 2017, 9:58 pm
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Re: Does a 15 RT WC have a "clean air system" or PAIR

Cool video! Thanks for sharing.


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post #11 of 18 Old Feb 10th, 2017, 8:58 am Thread Starter
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Re: Does a 15 RT WC have a "clean air system" or PAIR

Quote:
Originally Posted by lkraus View Post


That's for crankcase ventilation. Hose at 2 goes to the air cleaner box, not the exhaust port. As you said, it mounts on the back of the gearbox, driven by the rear end of the crank, behind the alternator. I believe part 6 spins in order to separate some of the oil back into the crankcase before crankcase air goes to the air box, and through the intake valves.

There's a video cutaway of the LC engine here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcrFi3ZCi7U It seems to show everything in the engine, and I do not see any points where anything could be injected into the exhaust. I find it helps a lot to use the YouTube settings to slow it down to half or even quarter speed, otherwise there is too much going on to comprehend.

My understanding is that un-burned fuel in the exhaust would cause changes in the O2 sensor output, causing the amount of fuel to be reduced, so that there would be no need to add air or cause burning within the exhaust.
Thank you for the video it is very cool for sure.

Also excuse my attitude at times I am old and cranky and sometimes both of me can not agree how to act, especially before the meds kick in.

A PAIR or Air Induction System to me is when un burnt gases are sent into the induction system to be re burnt.

"Air injection.
The air induction system burns unburned exhaust gases by injecting fresh
air (secondary air) into the exhaust port, reducing the emission of
hydrocarbons. When there is negative pressure at the exhaust port,
the reed valve opens, allowing secondary air to flow into the exhaust
port. The required temperature for burning the un- burned exhaust gases
is approximately 600 to 700 C (1112 to 1292 F).

Air cut-off valve.
The air cut-off valve is controlled by the signals from the ECU in
accordance with the combustion conditions. Ordinarily, the air cut-off
valve opens to allow the air to flow during idle and closes to cut-off
the flow when the vehicle is being driven. However, if the coolant
temperature is below the specified value, the air cut-off valve remains
open and allows the air to flow into the exhaust pipe until the temperature
becomes higher than the specified value."

This link will help you see what I am describing.

The air induction system - Yamaha FJR Forum : Yamaha FJR Owners Forums

So when I see the only thing that is labeled a fresh air system I believe it to be this system in some shape or forum.

A PCV is in all my years of trying to turn a wrench was passive.

With this on the end of the crank it is not passive at all.

I also did not see or could not see if there is a tract or port from the back side of this where it fits on the crank, to the exhaust ports. As that is where I believe it will inject unburnt gasses.

So I see this fresh air intake and a hose up to the air box. So it is drawing air from the air box continuously? It draws it down into the motor but then what? It has to be dumping that air into a exhaust valve right? I mean it is already got fresh air intakes coming off each side of the air box.

So where is this air being pulled by the crank spinning the fresh air intake going to? Or I guess the real question is how is it leaving?

EDIT: And I guess this is all based on my thought that the air is being pulled into the motor FROM the air box. Now if it is being pushed into the air box then that is the answer. It is still sending gases of some type into the fresh air intake which probably will affect AFR also.

Lee
15 R1200 RTLC San Marino Blue Metallic
10 Liquid Silver FJR1300 Sold
O7 Biarritz Blue Metallic LT Totaled 7/17/2010
ATGATT I am breathing proof.
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Last edited by LAF; Feb 10th, 2017 at 9:12 am.
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post #12 of 18 Old Feb 10th, 2017, 12:33 pm
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Re: Does a 15 RT WC have a "clean air system" or PAIR

Quote:
Originally Posted by LAF View Post
EDIT: And I guess this is all based on my thought that the air is being pulled into the motor FROM the air box. Now if it is being pushed into the air box then that is the answer. It is still sending gases of some type into the fresh air intake which probably will affect AFR also.
Yes, it is the latter. Emissions requirements prevent venting the crankcase air (which contains oil vapor and possibly some small amount of fuel/exhaust gases that leaked past the rings) directly to the atmosphere. I also was surprised to see "active" parts in the system. The idea that the spinning part is a oil/vapor separator is only my best guess as it does not seem to be shaped to pump air out (intake vacuum and those big boxer pistons can take care of that). The hex/camhead engines have been known to collect oil in the airbox (especially with an oil overfill) and I suspect BMW is trying to prevent that.

The effects on AFR are small and compensated for by the ECU. I think every gas-fueled vehicle since the early '60s has vented the crankcase air into the intake in some fashion. I'm not aware of it causing any problems. I'll take that back - instead of mixing gas and air (with crank vapor) in the intake, some cars are now injecting fuel directly into the cylinder. Intake air with slightly oily vapor, undiluted with gas, condenses on the back of the hot intake valve and intake tract, causing massive carbon buildups that require cleaning as often as 50K miles.


We can be glad that we don't need to deal with that. (yet) Or the PAIR system - that link was an eye opener. I'd read a little about the system & it's removal, and was unimpressed with the "benefit" of cleaning up the appearance. I did not realize there were so many connections and hoses. BMW seems to have avoided that snake pit by improving fueling and making air injection to the exhaust unnecessary.

Larry
2006 R1200RT

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post #13 of 18 Old Feb 10th, 2017, 5:20 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Does a 15 RT WC have a "clean air system" or PAIR

Quote:
Originally Posted by lkraus View Post
Yes, it is the latter. Emissions requirements prevent venting the crankcase air (which contains oil vapor and possibly some small amount of fuel/exhaust gases that leaked past the rings) directly to the atmosphere. I also was surprised to see "active" parts in the system. The idea that the spinning part is a oil/vapor separator is only my best guess as it does not seem to be shaped to pump air out (intake vacuum and those big boxer pistons can take care of that). The hex/camhead engines have been known to collect oil in the airbox (especially with an oil overfill) and I suspect BMW is trying to prevent that.

The effects on AFR are small and compensated for by the ECU. I think every gas-fueled vehicle since the early '60s has vented the crankcase air into the intake in some fashion. I'm not aware of it causing any problems. I'll take that back - instead of mixing gas and air (with crank vapor) in the intake, some cars are now injecting fuel directly into the cylinder. Intake air with slightly oily vapor, undiluted with gas, condenses on the back of the hot intake valve and intake tract, causing massive carbon buildups that require cleaning as often as 50K miles.


We can be glad that we don't need to deal with that. (yet) Or the PAIR system - that link was an eye opener. I'd read a little about the system & it's removal, and was unimpressed with the "benefit" of cleaning up the appearance. I did not realize there were so many connections and hoses. BMW seems to have avoided that snake pit by improving fueling and making air injection to the exhaust unnecessary.
I stand corrected I believe.

Still not sure on the spinning part and what that is doing but it would seem it is pulling from the motor and emptying it into the air box. It very well may be to help separate oil from vapor as you said and that does make sense. I had never seen a driven PCV and being called a fresh air system I assumed it was drawing air into the motor and dumping it into the exhaust valves as the Yamaha did. I am wrong in that assumption it would seem.

On my Turbo we put air hose water collectors in line of the PCV hose and where it was dumped back into the turbo and it would get a couple of oz over a few months or so. It kept us from coking up the turbo blades.

I will be in the air box soon and will look for any signs of oil or residue where that hose dumps out. It should be pretty easy to see and feel if anything is there.

As far as the FJR and PAIR we did it to install PC V and Auto Tune. To my knowledge it was never an issue and plenty of FJR are still running with the PAIR block off plates with no ill affects. A guy pretty close to me is in the 60,000 mile range. It did make a throttle body sync a heck of a lot easier.

Thank you for your thoughts and helping me get squared away on this.



Yes I have a direct injected car and have heard there may be carbon issues down the road. You can not do anything for it.

Lee
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post #14 of 18 Old Feb 10th, 2017, 6:10 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Does a 15 RT WC have a "clean air system" or PAIR

Well still not sure on this at all.

Referring to the Haynes Manual Section 2-39 they show crankcase vent valves in fig. 23.16, 23.24 and 23.24b. They show to make sure the crankcase vent valve reeds are clean. That sounds suspiciously like the Yamaha system. It even looks like them in design.

I am going to keep reading and looking but I am not so sure we do not have a PAIR or equivalent system on our bikes.

Just rooting for info and trying to understand.

EDIT: Haynes again Section 4.8 Illustration 8.3 Pull the hose unions out of each duct. Disconnect the air by pass hose from each duct.

I am thinking we do in fact have a PAIR system in place. Hopefully someone can look at a Haynes and see and comment on these items that are listed?

Lee
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post #15 of 18 Old Feb 14th, 2017, 5:30 pm
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Re: Does a 15 RT WC have a "clean air system" or PAIR

Quote:
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It is not in the exhaust on ANY bike it is in the head of the motor. As I say in the WC RT it is driven from the crank shaft.
Yet in your first post you reference dumping into the exhaust port ... so what was wrong again with my reply that the new bikes don't have this?

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post #16 of 18 Old Feb 14th, 2017, 8:56 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Does a 15 RT WC have a "clean air system" or PAIR

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Yet in your first post you reference dumping into the exhaust port ... so what was wrong again with my reply that the new bikes don't have this?
That is the issue I dont know what is wrong or right with your reply.

All I know is there is this thing spinning on the end of the crankshaft. It is drawing air into the motor. There are reed valves on the oil pick up tubes. There is a hose that comes out of the cylinder and goes to a nipple on the intake throttle body. What happens between part #6 in the parts diagram and that hose connected to the throttle body, the path that air flows is what I am looking to understand.

I was hoping someone who had checked valves could chime in on where that hose coming out of the cylinder is routed or connected in the cylinder.

Lee
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O7 Biarritz Blue Metallic LT Totaled 7/17/2010
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post #17 of 18 Old Feb 15th, 2017, 9:48 am
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Re: Does a 15 RT WC have a "clean air system" or PAIR

Personally, I'm just going to stick with the BMW maint. schedule. If they need replacing, the schedule will show it.
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post #18 of 18 Old Feb 16th, 2017, 5:26 am Thread Starter
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Re: Does a 15 RT WC have a "clean air system" or PAIR

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Personally, I'm just going to stick with the BMW maint. schedule. If they need replacing, the schedule will show it.
I understand. This is not for maintenance though. This is just to know how air is flowing through the motor and being dumped back into the intake tubes.

Just trying to learn what is what on this system.

Lee
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