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post #101 of 141 Old Apr 7th, 2016, 9:14 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

I own an airplane...when I do an oil change, I send the filter to a company that gives me an accurate measure of what metals are deposited in the sample and filter. Does any company do the same for the K1200LT? (2003 with 21K...fresh service from BMW)
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post #102 of 141 Old Apr 7th, 2016, 10:47 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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Originally Posted by donaldus View Post
I own an airplane...when I do an oil change, I send the filter to a company that gives me an accurate measure of what metals are deposited in the sample and filter. Does any company do the same for the K1200LT? (2003 with 21K...fresh service from BMW)
Don, I expect you could send your oil sample to the same place and get an analysis but the best indicator of an impending failure so far is flakes on the magnet indicating some component is self destructing. This will also usually show up as play in the rear wheel, both of which would be cause for a disassembly and close inspection of the internal components as long as it wasn't the pivot bearings on the swing arm causing the play.

A very fine fuzz on the magnet is normal but shiny flakes and bits are not. Someone else may have a site to send samples to for Motorcycles. If there is a large quantity of non ferrous aluminum then something else is going on like a spun taper bearing seat or the creeping pinion race where aluminum can be removed and then suspended in the oil which would not be collected by the magnet.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
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post #103 of 141 Old Apr 8th, 2016, 5:34 am Thread Starter
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by donaldus View Post
I own an airplane...when I do an oil change, I send the filter to a company that gives me an accurate measure of what metals are deposited in the sample and filter. Does any company do the same for the K1200LT? (2003 with 21K...fresh service from BMW)
A number of folks have posted on this site over the years regarding having oil analysis done. Yes, any number of companies will provide you an analysis for a fee. My understanding is than the best oil analysis information comes from routinely submitting samples with each oil change.

That said, I haven't heard anyone report that oil analysis gave a "heads up" regarding impending "classic" crownwheel bearing failure. That particular failure comes on fast.

The spinning tapered roller bearing failure, the spinning aluminum trunnion failure, and the creeping input pinion bearing race failure all are more slow going and will generate aluminum suspended in the gear lube. Typically the color of the gear lube is notably darker as these failures progress.

In summary, no harm in doing gear lube analysis, but "the juice may no be worth the squeeze."
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post #104 of 141 Old Apr 8th, 2016, 10:54 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

I was just wondering...if oil analysis has been done whether there is a difference in the types of metal in the sample as the gear degrades. On my airplane, any "spikes" in nickel, chromium or other alloys are cause for alarm. I would guess the "flakes" would cause the analysis to be regarded as abnormal. Right? Or am I just way out of touch with BMW cycles? This is my first Beemer; I have previously owned VRods, aircooled Hardlys, Road Stars, and a sprinkling of Hondas and BSAs. My 2003 LT appears pristine, under 22k, and just to be safe I had the dealership do the 18K service. All recalls and SBs had been complied with. Glad I got it "cheap" because after my "mods" I've doubled the cost of the bike! Makes the 26K new 1600s look more and more affordable.

I was told the whining and crunching at low speed is par for the course. I'm going to look into analysis...both for the beemer and me!
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post #105 of 141 Old Apr 9th, 2016, 1:22 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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Originally Posted by donaldus View Post
I was just wondering...if oil analysis has been done whether there is a difference in the types of metal in the sample as the gear degrades. On my airplane, any "spikes" in nickel, chromium or other alloys are cause for alarm. I would guess the "flakes" would cause the analysis to be regarded as abnormal. Right? Or am I just way out of touch with BMW cycles? This is my first Beemer; I have previously owned VRods, aircooled Hardlys, Road Stars, and a sprinkling of Hondas and BSAs. My 2003 LT appears pristine, under 22k, and just to be safe I had the dealership do the 18K service. All recalls and SBs had been complied with. Glad I got it "cheap" because after my "mods" I've doubled the cost of the bike! Makes the 26K new 1600s look more and more affordable.

I was told the whining and crunching at low speed is par for the course. I'm going to look into analysis...both for the beemer and me!
I never saw any visible metal flakes on my rear drive magnet, but I did see steadily increasing iron, nickel and chromium in my last 3 oil analysis results. Also started to see some oil seepage from the seal and then I could feel movement in the bearing. At that point, I traded it in on a K1600GTL last year. Not sure if the dealer has taken it apart or not to see what was failing.
Jim

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post #106 of 141 Old Apr 9th, 2016, 6:42 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

...Just bought a "spare" final drive...just in case. Is there a great place to have the spare overhauled? Spending money that "Momma" doesn't know I have, but I'll have the biggest smile in the graveyard!
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post #107 of 141 Old Apr 9th, 2016, 7:00 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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...Just bought a "spare" final drive...just in case. Is there a great place to have the spare overhauled? Spending money that "Momma" doesn't know I have, but I'll have the biggest smile in the graveyard!
If you are going to have it inspected and rebuilt, I would send it to Saddleman. He is currently the subject matter expert.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
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1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
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post #108 of 141 Old Apr 9th, 2016, 9:24 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

WILCO
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post #109 of 141 Old Apr 18th, 2016, 9:35 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Reading CharlieVT's original post from 2011, I am concerned with a impending FD failure, or maybe I'm paranoid after reading about FD failures. I was at the end of a 1800 mile ride this past weekend and I heard a noise from the rear end I hadn't noticed before. The final drive has 53,000 miles on it. However, I may not have noticed the noise before because I typically have music playing in my helmet.

I rotated the tire while on the center stand and didn't hear grinding. The tire also rotated smoothly. I also noticed that the rotor had the cow bell sound when I tapped it from the side. Could this be the sound I heard while riding without braking? To be sure, I changed the final drive fluid and had the standard grey fuzz. However, I also had silver flakes/fuzz on the oil pan (photos attached). Can you all make an assessment from the pictures?

I have a ten day trip in July where I'll be riding many miles with long days in the saddle. Perhaps I should preemptively have the FD rebuilt for peace of mind.

Rob, 2000LT
Navarre, FL
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post #110 of 141 Old Apr 19th, 2016, 5:19 am Thread Starter
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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Originally Posted by Fun Bobby View Post
... However, I also had silver flakes/fuzz on the oil pan (photos attached). Can you all make an assessment from the pictures?

I have a ten day trip in July where I'll be riding many miles with long days in the saddle. Perhaps I should preemptively have the FD rebuilt for peace of mind...
Rob,
I don't like the looks of the drain plug magnet and the shiny particles in the pail; shiny chips are pathognomonic of early classic crown wheel bearing failure.
I don't think you need a "preemptive" rebuild. I think you have a failure. Glad you caught it before heading out on your trip. I'd bet my lunch money you'd not have made it home without breakdown.

Suggest you give Saddleman a private msg on this forum.
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post #111 of 141 Old Apr 19th, 2016, 6:35 am
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

I agree with Curtis. I would do a preemptive rebuild (not a dealer rebuild!). The earlier model LT's had a higher failure rate. My FD on my 2000 LT went out at 52k miles. I changed the FD oil regularly and it gave no warning when it completely failed 1500 miles from home.

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post #112 of 141 Old Apr 19th, 2016, 7:13 am
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

+2 on the not liking what they see. Not sure what kind of oil you are using but what is in the pan looks very dark and the non ferrous residue screams for a look see inside.

The only reason I make a question about the oil is I am currently using Royal Purple and it starts out a deep dark purple color anyways and no inference that you are using a wrong oil.

Something is going on that needs to be looked at.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
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post #113 of 141 Old Apr 19th, 2016, 11:34 am
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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Originally Posted by Fun Bobby View Post
I have a ten day trip in July where I'll be riding many miles with long days in the saddle. Perhaps I should preemptively have the FD rebuilt for peace of mind.

Rob, 2000LT
Navarre, FL
Off topic but I would replace the rubber tire stem with a metal one before that trip.

John
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post #114 of 141 Old Apr 19th, 2016, 12:46 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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Off topic but I would replace the rubber tire stem with a metal one before that trip.
Wow! What a catch there John. If that is one of the original tire valves, amazing it lasted this long.
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post #115 of 141 Old Apr 19th, 2016, 12:59 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Dang, mine look like that also. No idea if they are original or not.

Gordon
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1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
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post #116 of 141 Old Apr 19th, 2016, 6:41 pm Thread Starter
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OEM tire valve stems

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Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post
Dang, mine look like that also. No idea if they are original or not.
What jzeiler was referring to is known to old timers on this site.
There were a number of OEM tire valve failures due to defective valves.
Old post on the subject:
Change your valve stems!
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post #117 of 141 Old Apr 19th, 2016, 7:18 pm
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Off topic but I would replace the rubber tire stem with a metal one before that trip.
Hi John
Better still is to get a valve stem that looks like this!!

Jim
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post #118 of 141 Old Apr 20th, 2016, 9:05 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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+2 on the not liking what they see. Not sure what kind of oil you are using but what is in the pan looks very dark and the non ferrous residue screams for a look see inside.

Something is going on that needs to be looked at.
I'm using Valvoline 75W-90 full synthetic gear oil in the final drive. I change the gear oil in conjunction with an oil change (approximately 3000 miles).

I sent saddleman a message requesting his service for a final drive rebuild.

JZeiler, thanks for the input on the valve stems. I'll have the stems replaced when I replace the tires in June.

Rob, 2000LT
Navarre, FL
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post #119 of 141 Old Apr 20th, 2016, 9:16 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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I'm using Valvoline 75W-90 full synthetic gear oil in the final drive. I change the gear oil in conjunction with an oil change (approximately 3000 miles).

I sent saddleman a message requesting his service for a final drive rebuild.

JZeiler, thanks for the input on the valve stems. I'll have the stems replaced when I replace the tires in June.

Rob, 2000LT
Navarre, FL
I imagine that the Valvoline is a honey color when new, unlike my royal purple or a specialized lube like Redline. Being as dark as that or at least from what I can see in the photo there is a good chance of aluminum being in it also those silver flakes in the pan lead to that assumption also. Nothing wrong with your oil, just wanted to make sure it was not naturally dark like mine.

Dave will get you fixed up.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
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post #120 of 141 Old Apr 26th, 2016, 2:20 pm
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Cool Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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Hi John
Better still is to get a valve stem that looks like this!!

Jim
But Jim, I believe that valve stem comes with an expensive option which I cannot afford yet! Now maybe John Z can.

John

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post #121 of 141 Old Apr 30th, 2016, 8:45 am
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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But Jim, I believe that valve stem comes with an expensive option which I cannot afford yet! Now maybe John Z can.

John
Well, the valve stem does come with a wheel option, which comes with a rear drive option, which comes with a few extra bits, but you can get the whole package by specifying K1600GTL on the order sheet. 😈😈😈
So, in exchange for a few$$, no more valve stem issues, no more rear drive failures🤑🤑🤑🤑
Jim

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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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Hi John
Better still is to get a valve stem that looks like this!!

Jim
I have one on the front of my K1300GT, I like it!

John
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post #123 of 141 Old May 12th, 2016, 11:00 pm
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My 2002 k1200 Lt runs battery dead in garage. Is there any way to unhook the clock?
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post #124 of 141 Old May 12th, 2016, 11:16 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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My 2002 k1200 Lt runs battery dead in garage. Is there any way to unhook the clock?
Rather than disconnecting stuff and it would be more than the clock, you would be better off getting a battery tender and leaving it on that.

How fast does it go dead? It should last a couple weeks and still start but there is a drain that is constant so it will eventually go dead. It should be only about 20 miliamps.

Gordon
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post #125 of 141 Old May 17th, 2016, 8:08 am
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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Rob,
I don't think you need a "preemptive" rebuild. I think you have a failure.

Suggest you give Saddleman a private msg on this forum.
You were correct CharlieVT, my final drive was in the midst of a failure. Saddleman may chime in with additional details, but the message I receive from him said; "The taper bearing on the opposite side of the crown bearing that failed fell apart when I split the final drive case apart." I'm fortunate to have made it home.

Rob, 2000LT
Navarre, FL
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post #126 of 141 Old May 29th, 2016, 6:57 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Hi folks,

At approximately what mileage do these occur and what model years are affected by this FD failure? Thanks,

Dick
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post #127 of 141 Old May 29th, 2016, 8:56 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Most failures of the big bearing occurs in the 99 2003 era. Mileage varies. The later bikes seem to suffer a taper bearing coming loose but it is pretty rare. Both are easy to fix if caught early.

John
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post #128 of 141 Old May 30th, 2016, 11:07 am
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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Hi folks,

At approximately what mileage do these occur and what model years are affected by this FD failure? Thanks,

Dick
Mine failed this spring with 95,xxx miles on it. She is a 2002 model. Not much warning at all. But I think I am a rare case.

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post #129 of 141 Old Jun 16th, 2016, 1:55 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Just a few comments:

1. "Impending" crown wheel bearing failure is easy spot - flakes on the magnetic plug

2. Impossible to have rear wheel wobble during impending crown wheel bearing

3. On my 2002 LT replaced the bearing twice
- once was a quick on the road repair - no adjustment or measuring of shims
- last time was with gauges and proper shimming since I did not trust the "road repair"

4. I now run a 2009 LT with a sidecar and am the proud owner of a 2009 completely rebuilt rear drive by Saddleman sitting in a box in the event
- if I were to let the rig go in the future I'll sell the drive to others as a form of insurance

Dan Finazzo

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post #130 of 141 Old Jun 16th, 2016, 2:24 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

I have a final drive from an 03 that crapped out anyone want it for the cost of shipping?

K1200LT gone, beater 1100RT on the way
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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I have a final drive from an 03 that crapped out anyone want it for the cost of shipping?
PM sent
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post #132 of 141 Old Jun 16th, 2016, 9:39 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

and answered, it's ready to mail.
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post #133 of 141 Old Jul 9th, 2016, 6:32 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Bought syringe on amazon, should do refill job OK

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

How many cc is FD?

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post #134 of 141 Old Jul 9th, 2016, 6:43 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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Bought syringe on amazon, should do refill job OK

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

How many cc is FD?
I use 220 at Tom Cutter's recommendation.

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post #135 of 141 Old Nov 23rd, 2016, 3:34 am
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Red face Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Hello to all, New to the forum and really enjoying it. I'm going today to look at a 2002 K1200LT with 100,000+ miles on it. Owner says it smokes on start up as did my K100 of several years ago The design of the Brick seems to encourage this type of behavior. I've been reading several of the posts regarding FD failure and watched an excellent YouTube video on the rebuild. My back ground is as a Tool & Die Maker and what jumped out at me was as follows. I doubt that BMW makes their own ball bearing for the final drive so given size or even bearing marking an off the shelf bearing is possible, Further there are grades of bearing with "super precision" being available for critical applications. But what really struck me was that by preloading you are putting an axial load on a bearing not designed for it. The tapered roller bearing often referred to as a Timkin is designed for radial and axial load a common radial bearing is not, but there are angular contact ball bearings in which the races are tilted to take an axial load as well as the radial load. SKF has a nice down loadable flier on these bearings. On assembly these bearing need to be oriented in order that axial load is applied in the correct direction. If someone has a failed bearing that is relatively intact I'd be happy to pay postage to have it sent to me so I can research and see if an angular contact bearing of proper size can be found. I plan on a per-emptive repair to the FD if I get the 2002 and plan to see if off the shelf bearings and seals are available. I'll keep you posted. Thanks for the forum! PeteVS
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post #136 of 141 Old Nov 23rd, 2016, 4:26 am
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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Originally Posted by PeteVS View Post
Hello to all, New to the forum and really enjoying it. I'm going today to look at a 2002 K1200LT with 100,000+ miles on it. Owner says it smokes on start up as did my K100 of several years ago The design of the Brick seems to encourage this type of behavior. I've been reading several of the posts regarding FD failure and watched an excellent YouTube video on the rebuild. My back ground is as a Tool & Die Maker and what jumped out at me was as follows. I doubt that BMW makes their own ball bearing for the final drive so given size or even bearing marking an off the shelf bearing is possible, Further there are grades of bearing with "super precision" being available for critical applications. But what really struck me was that by preloading you are putting an axial load on a bearing not designed for it. The tapered roller bearing often referred to as a Timkin is designed for radial and axial load a common radial bearing is not, but there are angular contact ball bearings in which the races are tilted to take an axial load as well as the radial load. SKF has a nice down loadable flier on these bearings. On assembly these bearing need to be oriented in order that axial load is applied in the correct direction. If someone has a failed bearing that is relatively intact I'd be happy to pay postage to have it sent to me so I can research and see if an angular contact bearing of proper size can be found. I plan on a per-emptive repair to the FD if I get the 2002 and plan to see if off the shelf bearings and seals are available. I'll keep you posted. Thanks for the forum! PeteVS
Welcome to the forum Pete. There has been a lot of discussion on the loading of that particular bearing and the collective wisdom of the likewise engineers on this site is that the bearing failed due to too much preload during assembly at the factory by an average of .2mm over spec on the ones that failed early. The bearing is a C3 spec 6917 85x120x18 deep groove bearing and the less expensive ones are usually C1 and are still close to $90 us. Seals are readily available from other than the dealer.

If you want a nice project, take it on yourself but there is more to that FD than just installing the bearing. I have done 2 myself, one completely which is my spare and the other was just the crown bearing which I am riding on. There are a couple other things you have to watch for and that is a creeping pinion needle race, a spun taper bearing seat and a lose sensor ring. After doing this myself, making the special tools and jigs necessary, I would recommend having Saddleman do the rebuild for you as it is easy to get wrong and Dave is the Forum final drive specialist and you will likely get something better back than if you do it yourself and I am a do it myself kind of guy. The video was likely done by CharleyVT on some of his earlier ones when he was doing rebuilds and covers the crown bearing but does not go over the other issues mentioned earlier.

If you want to buy or make the tools for just one rebuild, have at it and I am sure we can help you through it but as I said, it is easy to get wrong so if you want something reliable, talk to Dave. He is in North Carolina and is the gold standard.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #137 of 141 Old Nov 25th, 2016, 5:24 am
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Thanks for you information on the bearing. I don't want to be " reinventing the wheel " but consider the difference in the bearing loading between a Yamaha Venture Royale, I have an 88 and a 91, and the K1200LT. The Venture uses a double sided swing arm and there are a total of four bearing, two in the wheel and two in the final drive. Because the wheel is supported on both sides the bearings under static load see only radial load and under dynamic riding conditions the rotational component, which would add axial loading is minimized by the support of the swing arm. The loading of the K bearing is identical to front wheel bearings on cars and trucks. Bearing failure in these applications do happen but typically only after hundreds of thousands of miles without maintenance. WHY? Tapered roller bearings designed to carry radial and axial load under all conditions. The BMW's elegant single sided swing arm makes wheel changing almost fun compared to the Venture but the final drive bearings are the wheel bearings and see radial and axial loading under all conditions. I believe the K calls for a reinforced tire on the rear in order to carry rider, passenger and fully loaded gear to a max of 886 lbs.. From what I read the drive tapered bearing rarely fails as it's design is proper for the load it will see rather like the outer bearing on our cars front wheels. Because of the taper the roller will be in line contact over their full width and the unit pressure will be well distributed. A deep groove ball bearing is also a line contact bearing the line being the radius of the ball in contact with the groove and under normal radial loading unit pressure is within design spec. Just sitting on the ground the races will be forced together top and bottom and the balls will tend to ride up the sides of the bearing groove which could reduce the line contact and raise unit pressure. Under real world riding conditions the unit pressure could cause metal fatigue in the balls and races and cause the bearing to fail, which I read they do. BMW designers are reluctant to admit the have ever produced a poor design so it is a myth the anyone has had the latch on their top case "Dog Ear". !I want to work with Dave, I am probably "barking up the wrong tree" but will believe until proven wrong that if an angular contact bearing can be found there will be an improvement in FD life. Thanks again for the information!
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post #138 of 141 Old Nov 25th, 2016, 7:35 am
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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Originally Posted by PeteVS View Post
Thanks for you information on the bearing. I don't want to be " reinventing the wheel " but consider the difference in the bearing loading between a Yamaha Venture Royale, I have an 88 and a 91, and the K1200LT. The Venture uses a double sided swing arm and there are a total of four bearing, two in the wheel and two in the final drive. Because the wheel is supported on both sides the bearings under static load see only radial load and under dynamic riding conditions the rotational component, which would add axial loading is minimized by the support of the swing arm. The loading of the K bearing is identical to front wheel bearings on cars and trucks. Bearing failure in these applications do happen but typically only after hundreds of thousands of miles without maintenance. WHY? Tapered roller bearings designed to carry radial and axial load under all conditions. The BMW's elegant single sided swing arm makes wheel changing almost fun compared to the Venture but the final drive bearings are the wheel bearings and see radial and axial loading under all conditions. I believe the K calls for a reinforced tire on the rear in order to carry rider, passenger and fully loaded gear to a max of 886 lbs.. From what I read the drive tapered bearing rarely fails as it's design is proper for the load it will see rather like the outer bearing on our cars front wheels. Because of the taper the roller will be in line contact over their full width and the unit pressure will be well distributed. A deep groove ball bearing is also a line contact bearing the line being the radius of the ball in contact with the groove and under normal radial loading unit pressure is within design spec. Just sitting on the ground the races will be forced together top and bottom and the balls will tend to ride up the sides of the bearing groove which could reduce the line contact and raise unit pressure. Under real world riding conditions the unit pressure could cause metal fatigue in the balls and races and cause the bearing to fail, which I read they do. BMW designers are reluctant to admit the have ever produced a poor design so it is a myth the anyone has had the latch on their top case "Dog Ear". !I want to work with Dave, I am probably "barking up the wrong tree" but will believe until proven wrong that if an angular contact bearing can be found there will be an improvement in FD life. Thanks again for the information!
Pete, there are many threads on this subject on many forums. Most have come to the same conclusion that a taper bearing on both sides would greatly improve the reliability of this FD. That being said, drives that are set up with the proper shimming do see a much increased service life compared to those that have been shimmed too much from the factory. Metal fatigue is exactly what happens and some have cut open the bearings to examine the wear on the races and balls. I don't think a suitable taper bearing exists that could replace the deep groove one that fails, or someone would be doing that already. I have done some searching myself. That leaves us with having to use what was designed to fit but making sure that the shimming is correct. Too little and the taper bearing can be damaged, too much and the groove bearing will suffer. Too much is why these FD have a bad rep and the main reason they fail early. You can find Dave (Saddleman) on this thread and send him a private message if you still want to work with him on your rebuild. He does a total rebuild and makes sure that the other issues that can happen are also taken care of.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #139 of 141 Old Jun 17th, 2017, 9:35 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Great post. I too have had my fair share of performing surgery on these units and I have found that the wiggle test is not accurate. I just had a 2006 LT in here for a final drive that spit the seal out completely but the bearing had no play. the seal came out because the bearing failed and the cage around the balls wadded up and pushed the seal out. The interesting thing to me was the fact that the bearings were no longer in line and most of them rotated around the other side of the housing and there was still no play at all in bearing. seriously unsafe condition but customer rode the bike into shop like that. You can see a picture of the bearing on my website Kbikerepair.com under final drive repair. Its worth a look. But then again I'm sure you have seen that before! LOL

Here is a list of my diagnostics I perform.....

1. I put bike up on table
2. check fluid level and condition.
3. With bike on center stand, start and run in 2nd gear.
4. while bike is running I put a electric stethoscope on housing and listen for noise.
If the bearing is compromised the pits on the race will deliver a very detectible noise if you know to listen for?. (If mailed in this is difficult to do)
When mailed in I disassemble and check. If they mailed it in it most likely getting upgraded anyway.
I keep a 2006 K1200LT test bike at my shop to check functions of products I repair.
Ron.
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post #140 of 141 Old Jun 17th, 2017, 10:36 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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Great post. I too have had my fair share of performing surgery on these units and I have found that the wiggle test is not accurate. I just had a 2006 LT in here for a final drive that spit the seal out completely but the bearing had no play. the seal came out because the bearing failed and the cage around the balls wadded up and pushed the seal out. The interesting thing to me was the fact that the bearings were no longer in line and most of them rotated around the other side of the housing and there was still no play at all in bearing. seriously unsafe condition but customer rode the bike into shop like that. You can see a picture of the bearing on my website Kbikerepair.com under final drive repair. Its worth a look. But then again I'm sure you have seen that before! LOL

Here is a list of my diagnostics I perform.....

1. I put bike up on table
2. check fluid level and condition.
3. With bike on center stand, start and run in 2nd gear.
4. while bike is running I put a electric stethoscope on housing and listen for noise.
If the bearing is compromised the pits on the race will deliver a very detectible noise if you know to listen for?. (If mailed in this is difficult to do)
When mailed in I disassemble and check. If they mailed it in it most likely getting upgraded anyway.
I keep a 2006 K1200LT test bike at my shop to check functions of products I repair.
Ron.
Again, welcome Ron, it is always good to have options for those who do not do their own wrenching but I am going to take issue with your comment on the wiggle test not being accurate if your example is one that the cage has already wadded up and pushed the seal out. They do fail quickly once they start but if checked before the seal was popped, I suspect that some play would have been detected. Once it has failed that far with the bearings no longer in a radial pattern around the race, it would likely be binding and running metal on metal so checking for play at that point would be pointless.

The wiggle test is a good check to be done periodically to evaluate the state of the bearing and if play is detected, action should be taken prior to the cage exploding. I do like your approach of using an electrical stethoscope to listen for noise. I may have to get one and check it out.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #141 of 141 Old Jun 18th, 2017, 2:49 pm
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I guess i needed to be more clear.
Im not saying that you should not perform the wiggle test, rather one should not use it as the main method of detecting failures. If a bearing has play it may show it on the wiggle test. My comment was mainly that i witnessed a complete bearing failure with wadded up cage that not only was hardly noticeable by rotating the rear tire but had absolutely no end play on bike after failure. If i would not have seen it with my own eyes i would not have believed it myself.
Sorry for the confusion.
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