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post #51 of 141 Old Jun 17th, 2013, 1:15 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by copperstatetour
Just in case anyone (besides me) cares, to provide an update on my post #46 above, I drained the fluid that was in there at the time I made that post after about 1,000 miles of use and there was absolutely nothing to report. I would have posted a pic to show everyone but just go pour some brand new gear oil in a jar and you will see the same thing; nothing on the plug magnet either, and I mean nothing. Whatever was getting ground up in there is ground up and gone.
Yup looks normal to me. Nice garage floor coating.

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post #52 of 141 Old Jul 18th, 2013, 5:34 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Just left on holidays last Friday. Drove 5 hrs to Edmonton Alberta with my 2009 LT. IT HAS 27, 000 MILES Sounded like I had a flat tire Stopped to look and back wheel was covered in oil. Is that slapping noise I heard typical of a rear drive failure? Currently left it at the local dealer.
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post #53 of 141 Old Jul 18th, 2013, 9:12 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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Originally Posted by jzeiler
If you take the time and do your research here you will find that the design is fine but were missassembled at the factory with too much preload. This occurred mostly up to about mid 2002.
Up to about mid 2002 Model year or manufacture year. Because 2003 bikes were actually made in 2002.

Just wondering if I need to be proactive and buy a 2004+ FD to have around just in case.

Currently riding a 2003 K1200LTC
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post #54 of 141 Old Jul 19th, 2013, 9:23 am
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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Originally Posted by timgray
Up to about mid 2002 Model year or manufacture year. Because 2003 bikes were actually made in 2002.
Not necessarily. My 2003 was built in 06/2003. Look at the nameplate for the build date.

I've also been pondering if I should do anything pre-emptively, but since I only have 14k miles on the clock I think I'll just ride on.
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post #55 of 141 Old Jul 19th, 2013, 1:58 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

There are some 2005 & newer years that have self destructed in less than 10,000 miles.

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post #56 of 141 Old Aug 22nd, 2013, 10:48 am
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

I'm an R1200GS (2009, 40kMi) guy, but this LT forum seems to talk much more intelligently about FD issues than any of the GS sites.
My drive gave up the ghost 2 weeks ago. I pulled the FD apart and the grooved roller bearing cage was completely gone. There were only 15 balls (not sure what's standard on this bike). Crown and pinion gears look very good.
So I did all the disassembly and inspection, ordered the parts (all bearings, seals, o-rings; $280) and ready to reassemble. I just don't trust myself (or my local dealer - a little too pompous for my liking) to give me a better result than the original factory build.
CharlieVT (or others) - can you recommend a shop? I'm in CO but willing to ship it to a reputable mechanic.

One other question while I'm at it. My FD has a sealed bearing. Oil changes help lube the needle bearing and gears, but no impact on the grooved roller. Is the LT bearing open (i.e. lubed by the FD oil)? I would see no fuzz on my magnet if the bearing starts to degrade. At least not until the bearing fails and tears open the bearing seals.
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post #57 of 141 Old Aug 22nd, 2013, 11:00 am
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Both on this Forum saddleman or jzeiler they do a great job.
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post #58 of 141 Old Aug 22nd, 2013, 10:27 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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Originally Posted by GaryEm
Both on this Forum saddleman or jzeiler they do a great job.
Thanks for the plug Gary but the 09 GS has an EVO rear drive. I have not been in those ..yet.

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post #59 of 141 Old Aug 23rd, 2013, 4:50 am Thread Starter
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by VinCris
I'm an R1200GS (2009, 40kMi) guy, but this LT forum seems to talk much more intelligently about FD issues than any of the GS sites....
I just don't trust myself (or my local dealer - a little too pompous for my liking) to give me a better result than the original factory build....
CharlieVT (or others) - can you recommend a shop? I'm in CO but willing to ship it to a reputable mechanic....
One other question while I'm at it. My FD has a sealed bearing. Oil changes help lube the needle bearing and gears, but no impact on the grooved roller. Is the LT bearing open (i.e. lubed by the FD oil)? I would see no fuzz on my magnet if the bearing starts to degrade. At least not until the bearing fails and tears open the bearing seals.
Earlier GS models did have a FD which used the same bearing and setup as the K1200LT as did some RT models. Anyone with experience with the K1200LT FD will be familiar with the FD of these earlier GS and RT models.

However, later model GS's use the Evo drive with the hole in it. I don't know much about the Evo drives except to say I've heard they've had their share of problems.

I think you are correct to suspect the ability and reliability of BMW service depts. That's not to say that there aren't some excellent BMW shops, it's just hard to know which one's will do a good job.

I'd suggest calling these shops and ask if they'll do your Evo final drive. By reputation, they do good work:

Anton Largiader at http://www.largiader.com/
or
Tom Cutter at http://www.rubberchickenracinggarage.com/index.html
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post #60 of 141 Old Aug 23rd, 2013, 10:58 am
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

CharlieVT - thanks for pointing me to some repair shops. Sorry to hijack the LT thread with a GS post. I contacted a shop in Utah and go this interesting response. Hope it is a worthwhile contribution to the conversation.


You are completely correct about the oil changes having absolutely nothing to do with that external bearing failure. We have been repairing those rear drives regularly, particularly with the Salt Lake City Police units which we are contracted to repair and maintain.. Our hypothesis concerning those units failing at a rate very much higher than out civilian customers has to do with washing. The officers have the bikes inspected for cleanliness, so they were taking them to the high pressure car washes and spraying the wheels to clean them. On those bikes we were seeing that water was getting into the bearings past the seals, resulting in the expected failure in short order.
This leads us to believe that some of the bearings had bad seals or were not packed well when they were manufactured. We think (please read the think part--this is just what we see) that most of the failures are due to low quality bearing seals or that during the assembly of the final drives these bearings might be heated too much to make them easier to install and therefore compromising the seals.
The Police bikes fail earlier, in our thoughts, because of the frequency of the attack washing. But, if the bearing on a bike that does not get this washing abuse is still damaged or defective it will just take longer before the failure shows up. The Police units often failed before 12,000 miles, but we suspect about the same number of washings as a civilian unit might get in 50,000 or more miles.
If the seal is compromised, even correct washing or just riding in the rain could introduce enough water and debris into the bearing to eventually make it fail.
Thus far, as the officers have been trained to not aim the washing sprays right at the final drive, we have seen a dramatic decrease in failures. But, the 2005/2006 civilian models are starting to fail as the mileages are getting up there and, if we are correct, the seals are simply not keeping the bad stuff out and the good stuff in.
Thus far, we have not had a single repeat failure on a hex head final drive that we have repaired. But, to be completely fair, the time/mileage lapse from our repair may simply not be long enough to have it show up again.
Ugg, final drives on BMWs. We thought the oil head one was a problem; I am afraid the new one is going to be much worse
Ron



On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:50 PM, Cris wrote:
Ron and friends,

The grooved ball bearing on my 09 failed last week at 40Kmi. I pulled it apart, cleaned and inspected it, and ordered new parts (bearings, seals, o-rings). But, now as I get ready to reassemble Im seeing all kinds of forum chatter about the cause of these failures in particularly the odds of a repeat failure. There seems to be a consensus that the shimming and bearing pre-load are critical. I dont trust myself to do the job right. BMW did something wrong the first time, so Im hesitant to trust my local dealer, too. Im not even sure yet what right is.
What are your credentials and experience doing rebuilds on the 2nd generation EVO final drives? And, what would you charge to reassemble including the shimming process? What would it be if I reassemble and just had you do the shimming? Id also appreciate an estimate on the turn around time.
One last question: theres a lot of talk about regular oil changes to prevent this failure. But the bearing is sealed and I dont see how FD fluid would affect its life. Am I missing something? (Not arguing that fluid changes are a bad idea, just that they cant contribute to bearing health.)
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post #61 of 141 Old Sep 24th, 2013, 7:24 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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Originally Posted by CharlieVT
Much discussion and speculation about what indicators might be useful for predicting final drive failure.

I continue to try and understand the progression of the "classic" crownwheel bearing failure in our beloved K1200LT. I have now done about 50 final drive rebuilds, both repairs of various types of failures, (the most common being the "classic" crownwheel bearing failure) and a number of preemptive rebuilds. In several of the "preemptive" rebuilds the owner had become suspicious of dark gear lube, increasing grey metal fuzz on the drain plug magnet, and in more advanced cases, weeping of lube at the hub seal.

I have noted in past preemptive rebuilds that in many cases the outer race of the crownwheel bearing is wallowed out. More recently I have seen cases of where the hub seal had started to leak without other signs of catastrophic failure. In these cases, the crownwheel bearing outer race was severely wallowed to the point where one side of the groove had developed a very sharp edge. In the attached picture, I am trying to demonstrate how sharp the edge of the groove gets by shaving a finger nail on the edge of the groove. In this particular race there is also significant pitting, but in some cases the groove is smooth with out any pitting, but the groove is widened and very sharp on one side.

The only other signs of a possible problem other than weeping at the hub seal was dark gear lube and lots of fine fuzzy metal on the drain plug magnet.

Previously, I had maintained that grey fuzz on the drain plug was "normal" and shiney metal flakes were bad. Now it seems that grey fuzz maybe normal but may also be associated with wearing of the race without pitting. Metal flakes are definitely associated with pitting of the races.

In no case that I am aware of a "wiggle test" or "shake the wheel test" indicating a failing final drive. My suggestion is that if you are trying to find an indication of final drive failure, checking the rear wheel for wiggle is a waste of time. Even when the races of the crownwheel bearing was wallowed out enough to cause weeping of oil at the hub seal, there have been no reports of detectable wiggle at the wheel; the looseness is apparently too subtle for the human hand to detect.

Conclusions so far:
- Shiney metal flakes in the gear lube indicate near term final drive failure.
- Dark colored gear lube, especially when previous lube changes have been lighter in color, indicates a problem. This suggests that using the same type/color gear lube and keeping to regular lube change intervals may be helpful in identifying increasingly dark lube. (Please DO NOT start an oil thread here.)
- Increasing grey metal fuzz on the drain magnet may indicate a problem. Again, keeping to a reqular interval of changing lube will help identify increasing amounts of grey fuzz on the drain plug. Increasing amounts of grey fuzz is a bad sign.
- The "shake the wheel" test is basically useless in checking for final drive problems. By all accounts, by the time you can feel the wheel move during a "shake the wheel" test, the hub seal will have already puked out the lube. (The shake the wheel test is a valid check for pivot bearing and other swing arm related problems.)

Based on my increasing understanding of the progression of failure of the crownwheel bearing, I would never suggest just changing the hub seal in a case where weeping at the seal is occuring. Too often there is an underlying cause of the leak that is related to the crownwheel bearing.
As a new owner of a 1200LT could you tell me what type of lubricant is used in the Final Drive???
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post #62 of 141 Old Sep 24th, 2013, 8:04 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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Originally Posted by Rightrudder2
As a new owner of a 1200LT could you tell me what type of lubricant is used in the Final Drive???
Tom Cutter, who has rebuilt many final drives and transmissions recommended Castrol Hypoy C 80W90 which, I believe, was superseded by this: http://www.castrol.com/castrol/secti...tentId=7036192

I believe he also recommends a Spectro product, but I forget which one. The Castrol is easy to find almost anywhere.

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post #63 of 141 Old Nov 5th, 2013, 11:36 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager
Tom Cutter, who has rebuilt many final drives and transmissions recommended Castrol Hypoy C 80W90 which, I believe, was superseded by this: http://www.castrol.com/castrol/secti...tentId=7036192

I believe he also recommends a Spectro product, but I forget which one. The Castrol is easy to find almost anywhere.
I use Red Line synthetic motor oil in my Boxster with 170k miles and am planning on switching over to Red Line for the '99 LT with 58k miles that I just started riding (3,500 miles in 6 weekends). Red Line makes a couple of gear oils, I am considering switching to their Heavy Shockproof for my Final Drive that Saddleman is rebuilding; I would appreciate thoughts on the subject.
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post #64 of 141 Old Nov 6th, 2013, 8:34 am
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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Originally Posted by Rightrudder2
As a new owner of a 1200LT could you tell me what type of lubricant is used in the Final Drive???
75-90W Gear Oil

It only takes a little less than a pint so, I would recommend synthetic. Just cause I think it's better.

Change it every oil change.

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post #65 of 141 Old Nov 24th, 2013, 11:52 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

CharlieVT,
You mentioned above you are not in the business of rebuilding final drives and there are good companies that do. I currently have a 01gs that is leaking through the seal. I did an emergency bearing change in Utah 3k ago and now it leaks. It left me high and dry in the indian reservations in Arizona and a friend bailed me out. I had a 99 and suffered two fd failures. now I have a 02 lt and just lost my first at 85k. For years, I carried an extra in the right bag and that paid off this summer. Now it looks like I need to rebuild my spare and the gs. What do you suggest? For those of you who are counting, that is four failures with three different bikes. Hmmm. DS
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post #66 of 141 Old Nov 25th, 2013, 5:43 am Thread Starter
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by schutter
CharlieVT,
You mentioned above you are not in the business of rebuilding final drives and there are good companies that do. I currently have a 01gs that is leaking through the seal. I did an emergency bearing change in Utah 3k ago and now it leaks. It left me high and dry in the indian reservations in Arizona and a friend bailed me out. I had a 99 and suffered two fd failures. now I have a 02 lt and just lost my first at 85k. For years, I carried an extra in the right bag and that paid off this summer. Now it looks like I need to rebuild my spare and the gs. What do you suggest? For those of you who are counting, that is four failures with three different bikes. Hmmm. DS

You have or had three bikes that were manufactured during the "plume" of final drive failures. Good bikes, bad final drives IMO

For shipping info and contacts read here:
Need an Final Drive Repairman

If you click on "Saddleman" and read his posts, you'll see some of his final drive work. He is a meticulous, professional mechanic who understands these drives and he is reportedly reasonably priced. FD Castle Speedo Ring Failure

Last edited by CharlieVT; Nov 25th, 2013 at 5:52 am.
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post #67 of 141 Old Nov 26th, 2013, 7:28 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

I don't know how much work Dave wants but I would reccemend him to anyone in need of a final drive repair. He did mine and I thought his price was very fair. He also guarantees his work.

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post #68 of 141 Old Nov 30th, 2013, 9:20 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Hello all readers of the Final Drive saga. Most of you who follow this thread know it by heart by now, but, there is one thing that I experienced in my failure that I have not read about since I joined the group just over a year ago.

First I want to thank Saddleman, aka Dave Selvig, for the terrific job he did in rebuilding by drive and the turn around time. And of course, thanks to each of you who has shared their experience and knowledge on the subject. It has been invaluable to say the least.

So, with little warning, at 52448 miles, at 80 mph, two up and luggage on board, there she blows. I felt a shudder that smoothed out for about a minute and then it was over. I tried to ride it far enough to make it to the freeway exit about mile ahead and that was the big mistake. Doing so trashed the cover plate and it was about $300 to replace the part. My advice, stop and get out of traffic as quickly as possible.

The new stuff:
The damage to the cover was likely caused by the crown bearing cage virtually disintegrating and sending its shrapnel out into the case. The bearing then became eccentric and as a result so did the wheel rotation. That caused the abs sensor/speedometer ring to come in contact with the sensor and literally grind about 0.050-0.075 off of the end of it (which I discovered during reassembly). Death to the sensor. It still had its magnetic properties but the grinding compromised it somehow.

So, when I put it all back together, no speedo, no ABS. I got lucky and found a rear caliper complete with sensor on ebay for $26.39 delivered to my box. Swapped out the sensors and all is at it should be. Braking test confirmed that the ABS actually works.

There you have it. My best Holiday wishes to all.
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post #69 of 141 Old Dec 1st, 2013, 5:53 am Thread Starter
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Glad to hear Dave got your FD fixed and you're back on the road.

It has been reported here before, but your experience is a good reminder to others:
By the time you know your FD has failed it is best to stop riding. Our "instincts" are to get ourselves those last few miles off the interstate or home, but it can be costly.

Many folks have destroyed a brake rotor, brake caliper, and as you report, ABS sensor components. Not to mention that when you are riding on a failed FD, ground up crownwheel bearing parts are being circulated throughout other parts of the final drive, it is a wonder that we haven't seen more internal damage in final drives than we have following crownwheel bearing failures.

Once the rear wheel starts to wobble, stresses are being placed on the tapered roller bearing. Mechanical engineers have told us that this will result in microstress to the roller bearing not visible to the naked eye but which can shorten the life of that bearing.

So others should heed your warning: if you have a final drive failure, it is best to stop and trailer right away rather than limp "a few more miles". Those last few miles can increase the number of parts needing replacement even to the point where it is not cost effective to repair the drive and replacement is the only good option.

Thanks for sharing your experience.



Quote:
Originally Posted by rktman
Hello all readers of the Final Drive saga. Most of you who follow this thread know it by heart by now, but, there is one thing that I experienced in my failure that I have not read about since I joined the group just over a year ago.

First I want to thank Saddleman, aka Dave Selvig, for the terrific job he did in rebuilding by drive and the turn around time. And of course, thanks to each of you who has shared their experience and knowledge on the subject. It has been invaluable to say the least.

So, with little warning, at 52448 miles, at 80 mph, two up and luggage on board, there she blows. I felt a shudder that smoothed out for about a minute and then it was over. I tried to ride it far enough to make it to the freeway exit about mile ahead and that was the big mistake. Doing so trashed the cover plate and it was about $300 to replace the part. My advice, stop and get out of traffic as quickly as possible.

The new stuff:
The damage to the cover was likely caused by the crown bearing cage virtually disintegrating and sending its shrapnel out into the case. The bearing then became eccentric and as a result so did the wheel rotation. That caused the abs sensor/speedometer ring to come in contact with the sensor and literally grind about 0.050-0.075 off of the end of it (which I discovered during reassembly). Death to the sensor. It still had its magnetic properties but the grinding compromised it somehow.

So, when I put it all back together, no speedo, no ABS. I got lucky and found a rear caliper complete with sensor on ebay for $26.39 delivered to my box. Swapped out the sensors and all is at it should be. Braking test confirmed that the ABS actually works.

There you have it. My best Holiday wishes to all.

Last edited by CharlieVT; Dec 1st, 2013 at 5:59 am.
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post #70 of 141 Old Dec 29th, 2013, 3:28 pm
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I just did a pre emptive change of the rear bearing(s) at about 100, 000 km.

My guru tells me that the only warning that occurs is the metal flakes on the drain plug. There is no other warning: it will just suddenly fail.

Also that failure is usually in the 80, 000 to 100,000 kilometre range.

Cheers,

Ron 2006 lt
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post #71 of 141 Old Dec 29th, 2013, 11:47 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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Originally Posted by CharlieVT View Post
...So others should heed your warning: if you have a final drive failure, it is best to stop and trailer right away rather than limp "a few more miles". Those last few miles can increase the number of parts needing replacement even to the point where it is not cost effective to repair the drive and replacement is the only good option....
Charlie, I understand what you're saying, but from my personal experience, I would beg to differ with you re: your reasoning. Yes, a person who tries to limp on in to the next stop or wherever is taking a chance of damaging additional parts. In effect, you're saying the repair costs will be higher. When my FD crapped out, I was also riding two up, loaded panniers/top case, and pulling a trailer, and I was in unfamiliar parts of the country. I could have wasted a lot of time, locating a tow truck/flatbed to come retrieve us off the interstate, then wasting more time figuring out where to take the bike, etc. etc.
In the end, I probably would have spent just as much money in a tow bill, along with the additional loss in monies spent on hotel reservations already booked, as I would have in additional parts replacement because I chose to limp in. My thought process is at least I got the bike, and more importantly, my wife, off the side of the interstate. The piece of mind that comes with the idea we've encountered a break down, but we're still making progress because we're still moving forward, and we're not stranded on side of a road, worrying about being hit by some other vehicle- that is worth whatever increase in costs I might suffer from as a result of limping it to the next exit.
My circumstances was such that I was carrying a spare FD, and I did have to travel on the blown out one maybe a mile or two, and there just so happened to be a motorcycle dealership at that exit, so it could have been a lot worse. The fact that it could have been a lot worse, i.e. more costly in time and money/mental anguish is my point. In such instances, my suggestion is, if one can, then ride on.

Ron, your "guru" might be correct for suggesting that range of kilometers for an '02, but there have been plenty of these FD failures occurring a lot sooner. In my case for my '99, it happened at approximately 61K km, which is significantly lower than your mentioned mileage. Readers/new owners shouldn't get hung up with the expected mileage, but rather realize if it's a BMW, and specifically an LT, then it's bound to happen, eventually.

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post #72 of 141 Old Jun 7th, 2014, 4:48 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

So we're thinking of getting ourselves a 2005 LT with 90K on it, from a dealer, and now I'm wondering if the FD is still a big issue with the BMW. I once owned a R1150GS that I had that left me stranded in Gakona on the way back for a Dust to Dawson trip, this after checking the oil in the FD before the trip to avoid this....and this was the thrid set of bearings, once at a dealer in MO, twice by me. Sore up and down I'd never own another BMW but the wife likes the look of the Light Truck.
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post #73 of 141 Old Jun 7th, 2014, 5:45 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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Originally Posted by Gnomad View Post
So we're thinking of getting ourselves a 2005 LT with 90K on it, from a dealer, and now I'm wondering if the FD is still a big issue with the BMW. I once owned a R1150GS that I had that left me stranded in Gakona on the way back for a Dust to Dawson trip, this after checking the oil in the FD before the trip to avoid this....and this was the thrid set of bearings, once at a dealer in MO, twice by me. Sore up and down I'd never own another BMW but the wife likes the look of the Light Truck.
If you went through 3 crown wheel bearings on your GS, you never got it properly rebuilt. Just replacing the bearings doesn't do it. Read more on this site.

A 2005 K1200LT is past the big plume of crown wheel bearing failures, but 2005s do have their share of FD problems. It would not stop me from buying the bike, but I'd figure the price of a preemptive rebuild of the FD in to the price. Contact Saddleman on this site to learn about getting a preemptive rebuild done. If you have him do it, you won't have to worry about it again; unlike your GS experience.

HTH

Addendum: don't ask the dealer to rebuilt it, you want assurance that it will be done right. For example, read here: Need help again!!! Oil on rear wheel? Final drive shot?

Last edited by CharlieVT; Jun 7th, 2014 at 7:16 pm.
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post #74 of 141 Old Jun 7th, 2014, 8:28 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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So we're thinking of getting ourselves a 2005 LT with 90K on it, from a dealer, and now I'm wondering if the FD is still a big issue with the BMW. I once owned a R1150GS that I had that left me stranded in Gakona on the way back for a Dust to Dawson trip, this after checking the oil in the FD before the trip to avoid this....and this was the thrid set of bearings, once at a dealer in MO, twice by me. Sore up and down I'd never own another BMW but the wife likes the look of the Light Truck.
If you are handy the preemptive for the 05 + is to pull the drive apart (can be left on the bike) and pull the taper bearing off the crown wheel assembly. It may just fall off. Then re install it with green Loctite sleeve retainer. They have tendency to loosen and slip on that shaft making aluminum powder in the oil (black). Mine removed .75 mm before I caught it.

John
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post #75 of 141 Old Jun 8th, 2014, 2:33 am
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Wow a lot of excellent information. I have heard about the FD failure thing. I am about to take my 2007 LT to Colorado, Utah and then to Yellowstone. I have been wondering about the drive. I only have 19k on the bike so from what I have been reading I do not have any worries. This week will be my first FD fluid change since I purchased it so I do not have any post change info. Fingers crossed it will be good. Frequent fluid changes are in order!! Thanks to all the contributors.
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post #76 of 141 Old Jun 11th, 2014, 8:04 am
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

I think this is what you meant:
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When using oven/freezer to install a new bearing I would use 250degreesF to heat the bearing and leave the Crown Gear in the freezer a minimum of 15minutes.
--------------------

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post #77 of 141 Old Jun 11th, 2014, 8:16 am Thread Starter
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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I think this is what you meant:
That is what I meant, Dave.

Holy Moly, you just found a slip of the tongue I posted in Aug 2011!
I think you need another hobby

Seriously, thanks for the correction.
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post #78 of 141 Old Jun 11th, 2014, 8:52 am
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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That is what I meant, Dave.

Holy Moly, you just found a slip of the tongue I posted in Aug 2011!
I think you need another hobby

Seriously, thanks for the correction.
When an interesting thread I had not previously read comes up due to new posts, I may read it from the beginning, rarely do I look at the dates on the posts. Now surprised no one questioned that post before.

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post #79 of 141 Old Sep 5th, 2014, 2:13 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

I think I have another FD impending failure.

I have an 2006 K12LT with 165K miles on the clock. At 85K miles I had a FD failure in FL and the final drive was rebuilt by BMW Daytona Beach. FD oil is replaced every 5 K miles with oil changes. A few weeks ago I was headed across the US and thought something felt different. I stopped and checked and changed the FD fluid and all looked good. The past two weeks I noticed black "dust" coating the rear wheel. I changed the brake pads, which were getting close, and today am doing oil, FD and tranny fluid changes. I drained the FD, about 4K since last change, and the fluid is gray and thick, no metal filings.

Thoughts???

Also, are you still doing rebuilds or do you know of someone good that does them? I'm in CA right now.

Thanks

Greg and Melanie
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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I think I have another FD impending failure.

I have an 2006 K12LT with 165K miles on the clock. At 85K miles I had a FD failure in FL and the final drive was rebuilt by BMW Daytona Beach. FD oil is replaced every 5 K miles with oil changes. A few weeks ago I was headed across the US and thought something felt different. I stopped and checked and changed the FD fluid and all looked good. The past two weeks I noticed black "dust" coating the rear wheel. I changed the brake pads, which were getting close, and today am doing oil, FD and tranny fluid changes. I drained the FD, about 4K since last change, and the fluid is gray and thick, no metal filings.

Thoughts???

Also, are you still doing rebuilds or do you know of someone good that does them? I'm in CA right now.

Thanks
Your description of the lube makes me suspect one of the aluminum wearing failures, that is the spinning tapered roller bearing or the creeping input pinion needle bearing. Recommend you contact Dave S. aka Saddleman on this site.
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post #81 of 141 Old Sep 8th, 2014, 12:19 am
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Thanks for you responses. It's in the shop getting a diagnosis. Let you know what I find out.

Greg and Melanie
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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Thanks for you responses. It's in the shop getting a diagnosis. Let you know what I find out.
In the "shop".
Curious where you sent it?
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post #83 of 141 Old Sep 10th, 2014, 6:42 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Irv Seaver BMW, recommended and close to me. I will probably regret this.

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post #84 of 141 Old Sep 15th, 2014, 6:07 pm
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Talking Re: Indications of impending FD failure

OK, here it is.

The Lucas synthetic in the FD boiled riding across the states with trailer. When that happened it turned the oil thick and the increased pressure caused a mist to come out the top valve. This explanation along with much more came from a guy with 25 years in oil industry. Two guys couldn't find any issues with final drive, looks solid. Two days working on bike with two fluid changes and only charged me $100. I had to make sure it was a BMW shop. So I'm riding it and am watching.

I've riden it about 1000 miles in the past couple days with no problems. Any comments?

Greg and Melanie
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post #85 of 141 Old Sep 18th, 2014, 3:00 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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OK, here it is.

The Lucas synthetic in the FD boiled riding across the states with trailer. When that happened it turned the oil thick and the increased pressure caused a mist to come out the top valve. This explanation along with much more came from a guy with 25 years in oil industry. Two guys couldn't find any issues with final drive, looks solid. Two days working on bike with two fluid changes and only charged me $100. I had to make sure it was a BMW shop. So I'm riding it and am watching.

I've riden it about 1000 miles in the past couple days with no problems. Any comments?
Let's start an oil thread!
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

He may have 25 years in the oil industry but to say the oil boiled in your rear drive is a bit absurd. According to the Lucas site that oil boils at greater than 500 degrees F. I doubt your drive attained that temperature without damage.

But then who a I to doubt some one in the industry.

Lucas 75/90 Synthetic Gear Oil Product Code: 10047, 10048, 10072, 10073 & 10074
================================================== ================
DIVISION AND LOCATION --- SECTION I
================================================== ================
Division: Lucas Oil Products, Inc. 302 North Sheridan Street Corona, CA 92880-2067
Emergency Telephone Number: (800) 342-2512
================================================== ================
CHEMICAL AND PHYSICAL PROPERTIES --- SECTION II
================================================== ================
Chemical Name: Synthetic Petroleum hydrocarbon plus additives.
Formula: Proprietary information.
Components: Hydrocracked, Hydroisomorized/C-15/C-55 parafinic oils.
Hazardous Components: Oil mist if generated.
Appearance: Liquid Color: Light yellow/straw Odor: Petroleum and strong
additive
Vapor Density (air = 1 ATM): Greater than air
Boiling Point: > 500 degrees F

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post #87 of 141 Old Sep 18th, 2014, 7:42 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

At 300 degrees the silver paint would be darkened. At 500 degrees it would be blistered.

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post #88 of 141 Old Jan 31st, 2015, 6:48 pm
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Hi Charlie. I have an 06 K12LT with 170k miles on it. The FD was rebuilt by Daytona BMW at 85k miles due to failure. I change evey 6k miles. A couple months ago I changed the FD fluid and it was grayer than normal, but no flakes. Yesterday riding the bike seemed different and upon inspection I had a very slight rear wheel wobble. I dropped the fluid today and in was gray, no flakes but thick mud on magnet after about 3.5k miles.
Comments?
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post #89 of 141 Old Jan 31st, 2015, 6:53 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Greg,

Typically the later bikes suffer from a "spinning" taper bearing. That usually makes aluminum powder that darkens the oil. If the wear is not too bad it can be saved on bike by splitting the drive and seeing just how loose the taper bearing is. If not flopping around (0.25 mm of wear or less) too bad you can re-secure that bearing on the shaft with some green loctite and reassemble the drive.

I have done that to a few of them with no further issues.

John
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2005 Ocean Blue Blue Wizard
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
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post #90 of 141 Old Jan 31st, 2015, 7:19 pm
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Would you think a rebuild on FD to be a good idea if you have it apart anyway?
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post #91 of 141 Old Jan 31st, 2015, 7:21 pm
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Are you and saddleman still doing rebuilds on these?
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post #92 of 141 Old Feb 1st, 2015, 7:07 am
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

I'm rebuilding one today.

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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

To do a proper assessment the entire drive needs to be sent. Go with Dave as I am out of commission for a few more months following my surgery.

John
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post #94 of 141 Old Mar 27th, 2015, 1:54 pm
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Update.

I was riding through Las Vegas and the rear wheel now could be wiggled at 3 and 9 so took it to the local dealer. Sure enough, like I told the guys in California, needed rebuild including tapered roller bearing and needle sleeves. Also needed a housing cover ($323). So, hopefully good for another 85k miles. The price on the rebuild actually came down from 4 years ago. My bikes now, beside this one, are chain. Easy to replace and can carry a spare with me.
Thanks guys.
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post #95 of 141 Old Mar 27th, 2015, 3:25 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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Update.

I was riding through Las Vegas and the rear wheel now could be wiggled at 3 and 9 so took it to the local dealer. Sure enough, like I told the guys in California, needed rebuild including tapered roller bearing and needle sleeves. Also needed a housing cover ($323). So, hopefully good for another 85k miles. The price on the rebuild actually came down from 4 years ago. My bikes now, beside this one, are chain. Easy to replace and can carry a spare with me.
Thanks guys.
Prior to getting the LT, all of my other bikes had chain drive. I liked the thought of never having to adjust and lube the chain and carry around a spare master link and chain breaker. In college, I carpooled with a former Harley rider - he had dropped his bike and his thumb went through the sprocket. FD's still have their advantages...

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post #96 of 141 Old May 26th, 2015, 1:58 am
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

On a ride out yesterday I was doing about 60Mph with the wife on the back and the bike suddenly developed a wobble on the back end that I at first assumed was a punctured tyre. I pulled up as soon as it was safe to do so and once I'd got off the bike and had a look at the rear end it seems the entire oil contents of the final drive were over the whole rear tyre, wheel, brake rotor, calipers etc.

It had just had the oil changed the day before (along with gearbox oil and engine oil/filter), the drain plug had the usual minimal fuzz on it but I did notice a blob of some grease on the drain plug which I don't know how it got on there but it had been in the dealers shop for the seal doing that is behind that rubber boot about 10k miles previously and I assumed it was maybe used by the tech to help fit the seal. I didn't think much of it at the time but now I'm wondering!!

The oil colour was the same as it usually was when it gets changed and the bike had no oil leaks or even weeping on inspection. The ride was smooth, no grinding noises, no weird noises at all and whatever failed did so in a very sudden manner with no warning at all beforehand.

As this only happened yesterday I haven't inspected anything yet but I'm assuming it wasn't just a seal failing as I thought seals failed gradually rather than catastrophically. I will edit this post as and when I find out what's happened but feel free to give pointers on what I should be looking for as I'm no expert.
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post #97 of 141 Old May 27th, 2015, 8:32 am
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

129K 03, final drive is terminal, wheel wobbles and makes weeky weeky noise on the center stand, feels like going over tar strips when (last) ridden. AFAICT ridden K's of miles after it started to fail (flipper PO). bought a used FD, 99 @67K "looks good" LOL, Is there anything I c(sh)ould do, look at, on the used unit before swapping it in? Are there any good FD remove/replace how to's?
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post #98 of 141 Old May 27th, 2015, 5:36 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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129K 03, final drive is terminal, wheel wobbles and makes weeky weeky noise on the center stand, feels like going over tar strips when (last) ridden. AFAICT ridden K's of miles after it started to fail (flipper PO). bought a used FD, 99 @67K "looks good" LOL, Is there anything I c(sh)ould do, look at, on the used unit before swapping it in? Are there any good FD remove/replace how to's?
The 99 FD will have the speed sensor hole that will have to be plugged because it is not used on the 03.

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post #99 of 141 Old Jun 1st, 2015, 9:37 pm
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Re: Indications of impending FD failure

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The 99 FD will have the speed sensor hole that will have to be plugged because it is not used on the 03.
Funny "some internet guy" told me I couldn't use an 05 FD for sale locally because I needed the hole. Then the "99" final drive I got from Canada didn't have the hole... So it all worked out and the FD seems to be all better now. Won't know for sure til the gusher front brake line is replaced (there's a thread) So I can rack up a few miles. Rockerbox next weekend!

K1200LT gone, beater 1100RT on the way
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post #100 of 141 Old Nov 10th, 2015, 1:44 pm
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Smile Re: Indications of impending FD failure

Saddleman Rocks


I found lots of metal flakes when changing the final drive fluid of my 2000 LT with 84000 miles. I contacted Dave and he was able to turn the drive around very quickly. Dave found too much preload on the original bearing as the cause of the failure. Installed the drive last Thursday and it is smoother and quieter than ever. A big Thanks to Dave (Saddleman).
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