Clutch Help - BMW Luxury Touring Community
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post #1 of 46 Old Mar 4th, 2017, 6:47 pm Thread Starter
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Clutch Help

Just finished up a clutch rebuild and am having a problem - hope someone here can help out.

Got it all buttoned up and off the lift, drained the clutch master (installed new slave) using still installed grub screw and pressing in that small decent to let it gravity drain. (Ran about three full master cylinders worth of fluid through it.)

Went until it drained clear HOWEVER now the clutch lever pulls in to about 1/2" from bar and clutch does not engage. That is, I can hard shift into 1st but when I try and pull clutch lever it's "hard" and does not disengage.

Any ideas?

Gino
Salida, CA
'02 Silver
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post #2 of 46 Old Mar 4th, 2017, 8:11 pm
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Re: Clutch Help

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gino View Post
Just finished up a clutch rebuild and am having a problem - hope someone here can help out.

Got it all buttoned up and off the lift, drained the clutch master (installed new slave) using still installed grub screw and pressing in that small decent to let it gravity drain. (Ran about three full master cylinders worth of fluid through it.)

Went until it drained clear HOWEVER now the clutch lever pulls in to about 1/2" from bar and clutch does not engage. That is, I can hard shift into 1st but when I try and pull clutch lever it's "hard" and does not disengage.

Any ideas?
Since you installed a new slave, you need to get the air out. Gravity draining is great for a flush, but not so good for bleeding. Faster fluid flow helps move the bubbles. I replaced my grub screw with a normal bleed screw. I then bled normally by having my wife squeeze the clutch to the grip and then opening the bleeder quickly to let the fluid move briskly out. Close the valve, release the lever and repeat as normal. I repeated this several times.

Even then, the clutch barely disengaged. However, it was enough to ride the bike and after a few rides the clutch disengagement returned to normal. I think the vibration from the engine and road helped dislodge the smaller bubbles.

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post #3 of 46 Old Mar 4th, 2017, 9:35 pm
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Re: Clutch Help

First thing we need to know is what year is your LT and what clutch parts did you replace and where did you get them. Some people manage to get the diaphragm spring in backwards but I think in that case, the clutch doesn't engage.

Matt, it sounds like the clutch handle does not compress all the way to the bar as it normally would even with air in the lines.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
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1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
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post #4 of 46 Old Mar 5th, 2017, 1:33 am Thread Starter
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Re: Clutch Help

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Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post
First thing we need to know is what year is your LT and what clutch parts did you replace and where did you get them. Some people manage to get the diaphragm spring in backwards but I think in that case, the clutch doesn't engage.

Matt, it sounds like the clutch handle does not compress all the way to the bar as it normally would even with air in the lines.
Thanks all...

Here's the details - 2002 LTC, 127k, I replaced clutch plate, spring, pressure plate, slave cylinder, slave pushrod, plus whatever else was required (rear main, bolts, trans seals, etc.). All parts are BMW originals.

And yes exactly - the clutch handle does not compress all the way to the bar.

I HOPE the spring is installed correctly - otherwise I'll be having a fire sale on this LT. Spring was installed such that it "domes" away from the front of the bike. (Crosses fingers). I REALLY don't want to tear this thing down agin....

I'll try bleeding again in the morning with fresh eyes....

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Salida, CA
'02 Silver
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post #5 of 46 Old Mar 5th, 2017, 7:34 am
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Re: Clutch Help

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Originally Posted by Gino View Post
Thanks all...

Here's the details - 2002 LTC, 127k, I replaced clutch plate, spring, pressure plate, slave cylinder, slave pushrod, plus whatever else was required (rear main, bolts, trans seals, etc.). All parts are BMW originals.

And yes exactly - the clutch handle does not compress all the way to the bar.

I HOPE the spring is installed correctly - otherwise I'll be having a fire sale on this LT. Spring was installed such that it "domes" away from the front of the bike. (Crosses fingers). I REALLY don't want to tear this thing down agin....

I'll try bleeding again in the morning with fresh eyes....
Do you happen to still have the part numbers you installed from the bags they were in? One other possibility is you have the wrong clutch plate ( thicker than original ) If the clutch plate is too thick, it draws the spring down too far and the slave push rod does not protrude far enough and you get the symptoms you describe because the slave cylinder tops out and can't push any farther to disengage the clutch. Do you remember how far you had to compress the slave to get the bolts tight? It should have been away from the case a little more than 1/4 of an inch and the screws draw it tight, compressing the slave cylinder as it goes.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #6 of 46 Old Mar 5th, 2017, 8:31 am
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Re: Clutch Help

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Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post
First thing we need to know is what year is your LT and what clutch parts did you replace and where did you get them. Some people manage to get the diaphragm spring in backwards but I think in that case, the clutch doesn't engage.

Matt, it sounds like the clutch handle does not compress all the way to the bar as it normally would even with air in the lines.
Yes, I misread his first post. Sounds more serious than air in the system.

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post #7 of 46 Old Mar 5th, 2017, 12:58 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Clutch Help

Clutch plate was purchased from a board member more than a year ago so I can't verify part number (unfortunately packaging didn't make it through moving twice within that time).

I don't recall exactly how much the slave needed compression before getting tight, but 1/4" sounds about right.

Does it matter, on the slave, where the master cylinder connects versus the bleed hose? IIRC master is on "left" and bleed is on "right."

Looks like I'm going back in..... Thanks for all the suggestions.

Gino
Salida, CA
'02 Silver
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post #8 of 46 Old Mar 5th, 2017, 1:21 pm
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Re: Clutch Help

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Originally Posted by Gino View Post
Clutch plate was purchased from a board member more than a year ago so I can't verify part number (unfortunately packaging didn't make it through moving twice within that time).

I don't recall exactly how much the slave needed compression before getting tight, but 1/4" sounds about right.

Does it matter, on the slave, where the master cylinder connects versus the bleed hose? IIRC master is on "left" and bleed is on "right."

Looks like I'm going back in..... Thanks for all the suggestions.
I don't think the hose attachment matters.

Did you take pictures during your assembly? That would help ensure that clutch spring is oriented correctly, etc. I am not sure about whether the pushrod can be put in backwards or anything like that. Sounds like it might be a disk thickness issue as was mentioned earlier.

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post #9 of 46 Old Mar 5th, 2017, 3:27 pm
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Re: Clutch Help

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Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
I don't think the hose attachment matters.

Did you take pictures during your assembly? That would help ensure that clutch spring is oriented correctly, etc. I am not sure about whether the pushrod can be put in backwards or anything like that. Sounds like it might be a disk thickness issue as was mentioned earlier.
One other possibility is that the clutch disk is in backwards and the spring is impacting the longer side of the clutch spline center.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
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post #10 of 46 Old Mar 6th, 2017, 7:49 pm
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Re: Clutch Help

I would at least go in as far as removing the slave cylinder and make sure you have the rod in the correct way (see photo for reference). Also if it is all installed correctly the slave should be almost full seated with the bolts out, maybe less than 1/4 inch from the transmission boss. Air in the lines will not prevent the lever from going to the handle nor will a backwards clutch disk so my money is on the rod.
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post #11 of 46 Old Mar 10th, 2017, 11:48 am
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Re: Clutch Help

My $0.02....

You have the clutch spring plate in backwards. Happens... (don't ask me how I know, but it wasn't my bike that it happened too)

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post #12 of 46 Old Mar 10th, 2017, 2:39 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Clutch Help

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My $0.02....

You have the clutch spring plate in backwards. Happens... (don't ask me how I know, but it wasn't my bike that it happened too)
Will be getting back into it this weekend to check... I could have SWORN I put in in correctly, based on the spacer ring, wear patterns, pictures I seen on the 'net, and the three beers consumed while contemplating it...

To clarify - the spring goes in with the domed face AWAY from the engine (like below)?

I'll post once I have the issue resolved - to be served as a warning to other as to what no to do!
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post #13 of 46 Old Mar 10th, 2017, 2:55 pm
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Re: Clutch Help

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Originally Posted by Gino View Post
Will be getting back into it this weekend to check... I could have SWORN I put in in correctly, based on the spacer ring, wear patterns, pictures I seen on the 'net, and the three beers consumed while contemplating it...

To clarify - the spring goes in with the domed face AWAY from the engine (like below)?

I'll post once I have the issue resolved - to be served as a warning to other as to what no to do!
Keep it to 2 beers until you get it back together. Unfortunately, this is more common than you would expect. Should be a piece of cake the second time around.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #14 of 46 Old Mar 11th, 2017, 1:34 pm
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Re: Clutch Help

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Originally Posted by Gino View Post
Will be getting back into it this weekend to check... I could have SWORN I put in in correctly, based on the spacer ring, wear patterns, pictures I seen on the 'net, and the three beers consumed while contemplating it...

To clarify - the spring goes in with the domed face AWAY from the engine (like below)?

I'll post once I have the issue resolved - to be served as a warning to other as to what no to do!
Yes. Here is my assembly as I did the final check before installation. The engine side is the left side of this picture.

Don't forget to check the pushrod orientation also, although I can't imagine you could even install the slave if it was in the wrong way. Unless maybe if the spring was also backwards.

Take lots of pictures as you disassemble and then assemble again. I took hundreds during my clutch work and they proved very helpful. And measure your disk thickness in at least three equally spaced locations once you have it out again.
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post #15 of 46 Old Mar 11th, 2017, 5:44 pm
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Re: Clutch Help

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Originally Posted by Gino View Post
To clarify - the spring goes in with the domed face AWAY from the engine (like below)?
Voyager has hooked you up with pictures. No crayons needed...

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post #16 of 46 Old Mar 19th, 2017, 3:54 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Clutch Help

Ok..... Got it down to pulling the slave..... Pushrod is in correctly.

With slave cylinder out, pulling in the clutch handle, I can see the slave strain against the c-clip and I get no movement from slave (I would assume I would be able to see a the slave move...) and handle is stiff.

Brand new slave.... Any ideas?

Gino
Salida, CA
'02 Silver
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post #17 of 46 Old Mar 19th, 2017, 4:15 pm
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Re: Clutch Help

I think you would not get any movement in the slave when removed as the piston is fully out,, for it to work the piston would need to be in the cylinder maybe halfway to test.
that is why when you install the slave it doesnt but up against the gear box, you have to screw it back on in steps which forces the piston back into the slave

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post #18 of 46 Old Mar 19th, 2017, 4:37 pm
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Re: Clutch Help

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Originally Posted by Gino View Post
Ok..... Got it down to pulling the slave..... Pushrod is in correctly.

With slave cylinder out, pulling in the clutch handle, I can see the slave strain against the c-clip and I get no movement from slave (I would assume I would be able to see a the slave move...) and handle is stiff.

Brand new slave.... Any ideas?
Do not squeeze th clutch lever with the slave out! You can easily blow the o-ring out and send brake fluid and parts everywhere. Trust me.

The pushrod pushes the slave piston into the cylinder. With the slave removed, an internal spring will extend the piston. Remove your pushrod and use it to depress the piston. I believe you can depress it readily by hand. That will tell you if the slave cylinder is froze.

Another thing you can do is measure how far past the slave mount flange the pushrod is protruding. I made such measurements on mine and can probably find that in my massive thread from last April/May for comparison. That will give you an idea if the clutch spring was inserted backwards.

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post #19 of 46 Old Mar 19th, 2017, 6:41 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Clutch Help

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I think you would not get any movement in the slave when removed as the piston is fully out,, for it to work the piston would need to be in the cylinder maybe halfway to test.
that is why when you install the slave it doesnt but up against the gear box, you have to screw it back on in steps which forces the piston back into the slave
I see...... my misunderstanding of how the slave works.

I can use the push rod to depress the slave manually and clutch handle to make it come back out. When reinstalling clutch slave to transmission there is no resistance to getting it in, so no spring pressure.

Looking like a spring in backwards, will be dropping the trans tomorrow and making it right.

I'm beginning to think the old girl has it out for me....the gear position switch actually disintegrated when I removed it this time..... to the web for a replacement!

Gino
Salida, CA
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post #20 of 46 Old Mar 19th, 2017, 7:43 pm
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Re: Clutch Help

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I see...... my misunderstanding of how the slave works.

I can use the push rod to depress the slave manually and clutch handle to make it come back out. When reinstalling clutch slave to transmission there is no resistance to getting it in, so no spring pressure.

Looking like a spring in backwards, will be dropping the trans tomorrow and making it right.

I'm beginning to think the old girl has it out for me....the gear position switch actually disintegrated when I removed it this time..... to the web for a replacement!
It is sounding like that is the problem. I will try to find a couple pictures to show another check you can make. My pushrod was about 9/16" inside the mounting plane of the slave. And the slave hit resistance from the pushrod when a little more than 0.2" from the mounting plane. Let me see if I can find those pictures on my iPad. If not, I will have to post them later when I get to my iMac.

I found the pictures, but the site refuses to let my iPad upload both together. It will take only one. This one is probably most useful to you.
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post #21 of 46 Old Mar 19th, 2017, 7:48 pm
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Re: Clutch Help

Here is the other picture.
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post #22 of 46 Old Mar 19th, 2017, 10:49 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Clutch Help

Thanks for the pics - it confirms the issue - I can install the slave and it's flush with the trans with ZERO resistance - there's no gap and the push rod protrudes only about 1/4" (or less) into the slave housing - so it's never in contact with the slave...

Taking the hit and moving on - at least it came apart quicker this time around...

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post #23 of 46 Old Mar 25th, 2017, 5:21 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Clutch Help

Ok have it all torn down... Spring was in correctly... Now I'm at a loss...

So.....

OLD clutch plate measures at 5.2mm thickness (replacing due to rear main seal leak contamination).

NEW clutch plate measures at 6.5mm thickness - too thick? Do I need to get a new clutch plate?

Appears that there's still some room there to release the clutch... refer to pic.

Thanks!
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post #24 of 46 Old Mar 25th, 2017, 5:50 pm
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Re: Clutch Help

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Originally Posted by Gino View Post
Ok have it all torn down... Spring was in correctly... Now I'm at a loss...

So.....

OLD clutch plate measures at 5.2mm thickness (replacing due to rear main seal leak contamination).

NEW clutch plate measures at 6.5mm thickness - too thick? Do I need to get a new clutch plate?

Appears that there's still some room there to release the clutch... refer to pic.

Thanks!
Gino, IT may be that your plate is too thick. Looking at another thread, it should be closer to 6.1mm and Sailor makes reference to a 6.5mm plate that the user could not use as it was too thick.

post #70 from this thread.

2007 slipping clutch repair saga

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #25 of 46 Old Mar 25th, 2017, 6:13 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Clutch Help

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Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post
Gino, IT may be that your plate is too thick. Looking at another thread, it should be closer to 6.1mm and Sailor makes reference to a 6.5mm plate that the user could not use as it was too thick.

post #70 from this thread.

2007 slipping clutch repair saga
Thanks for the research and link - I did read that thread but for some reason glossed over that information (long thread!)...

Looks like that's what I'm up against because it's consistently 6.5mm...

I guess the price was too good to be true, too bad it was pawned off on me from another member of this board - oh well - live and learn - off to the dealer to see if they have one in stock... Spring open house today though - I may be walking out with a new K1600GTL instead!

Gino
Salida, CA
'02 Silver
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post #26 of 46 Old Mar 25th, 2017, 6:18 pm
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Re: Clutch Help

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Originally Posted by Gino View Post
Thanks for the research and link - I did read that thread but for some reason glossed over that information (long thread!)...

Looks like that's what I'm up against because it's consistently 6.5mm...

I guess the price was too good to be true, too bad it was pawned off on me from another member of this board - oh well - live and learn - off to the dealer to see if they have one in stock... Spring open house today though - I may be walking out with a new K1600GTL instead!
If the dealer doesn't have one, you can get one from Beamer Boneyard for less and better than stock. As I plan on keeping mine for some time to come, I went with the oil resistant one for a few dollars more. Good luck on this venture and take your micrometer with you so you know the replacement is thinner.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
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post #27 of 46 Old Mar 25th, 2017, 6:27 pm
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Re: Clutch Help

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Originally Posted by Gino View Post
Ok have it all torn down... Spring was in correctly... Now I'm at a loss...

So.....

OLD clutch plate measures at 5.2mm thickness (replacing due to rear main seal leak contamination).

NEW clutch plate measures at 6.5mm thickness - too thick? Do I need to get a new clutch plate?

Appears that there's still some room there to release the clutch... refer to pic.

Thanks!
I think Sailor is better versed on this than me, but I am pretty sure that is too thick. I think the LT should be 6.0 mm new. I will need to find my original post, but I think my rebuilt disk was 6.1 mm thick, but that was with probably 0.07 mm extra to adjust for the 0.030" or so machined off my flywheel and pressure plate.

Where did you get the thick disk from?

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post #28 of 46 Old Mar 25th, 2017, 6:31 pm
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Re: Clutch Help

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Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post
Gino, IT may be that your plate is too thick. Looking at another thread, it should be closer to 6.1mm and Sailor makes reference to a 6.5mm plate that the user could not use as it was too thick.

post #70 from this thread.

2007 slipping clutch repair saga

Gino, Gordon,

The quoted tread in message above is a bit long because of numerous back-forth including feedback from many members.
HOWEVER, the "bottom line" lesson(S) from this long older thread are:

- The regular OEM friction plate sold by BMW is generally 6 to 6.1 mm when NEW

- Most "reliable" sources like BeemerBoneYard will offer 2 models of Siebenrock after-market clutch friction plates (made in Germany). These have been measured by me and many members and are generally 6.1 to 6.18 mm MAX when new.

- Some cheaper alternatives, some on EBAY, are "made in China" and are generally 6.5 mm. A few members on the K1200RS forum and also here got caught buying these useless replacement...

- As the friction disc wears (gets thinner), it pushes the push-rod out more toward rear or transmission. The opposite, too thick friction plate, will bring it in (away from slave piston). This somewhat strange concept (depth -vs- plate thickness) has been explained many times by JZEILER (john) and is caused by curvature of diaphragm spring.

- Although BMW as never published a MAX friction disk thickness, various mistakes and measurements done by a member in the K1200RS forum leads to me to believe it is around 6.2 mm. More than this and you run out of push-rod extension in the slave cavity. Of course, one could install a longer push-rod to match a 6.5 mm friction plate... however, unless you are a machinist and have time to play guinea-pig, I fail to see why you would choose this battle. As designed, the slave cylinder and its piston inside has a limited travel based on normal wear range as specified in shop manual (6.1 new to 4.5 min when old). Unless you design a new slave and a new cavity in transmission, NOTHING can change this limitation.

- Once the transmission is in place (fully bolted) AND before installing you SLAVE, check distance / depth of push rod tip compare to metal in center of seal (see attached picture). You should have approx 16 to 18 mm. The attached photo show 19 mm, but this one had about 35K miles on this new friction disk (and as you know, push-rod goes out with wear...)

- Another tip, similar to above, if to measure space between slave and base of transmission as you tighten the 3 bolts of slave. With new plate installed, you should see a gap of at least 0.30 inch to approx max of 0.37 (3/8 inch). Of course, this resulting gap is proportional to previous item as a push-rod that is out more, will increase the gap measured here.


Buyer of clutch parts beware... hopefully every new K1200LT/RS member shopping for clutch parts will read this warning or the previous thread.
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Last edited by sailor; Mar 25th, 2017 at 6:56 pm.
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post #29 of 46 Old Mar 25th, 2017, 6:40 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Clutch Help

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Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
Where did you get the thick disk from?
Was purchased from a member here a few years back and, yes, touted as an "OEM replacement" - so not sure if this was a known issue back then, and I didn't think anything of it, and may not have been a known issue by the seller. Life is too short and I want to ride so taking the hit and moving on.

BBY has clutch plate for $260 - I plan on maybe having this bike for another year (or less) so the stock clutch plate is OK with me (the last one installed 80k ago)... If dealer doesn't have one I'll order from BBY.

Thanks all for the input - looks like I'm on the right track.

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post #30 of 46 Old Mar 25th, 2017, 6:50 pm
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Re: Clutch Help

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Originally Posted by Gino View Post
Thanks for the research and link - I did read that thread but for some reason glossed over that information (long thread!)...

Looks like that's what I'm up against because it's consistently 6.5mm...

I guess the price was too good to be true, too bad it was pawned off on me from another member of this board - oh well - live and learn - off to the dealer to see if they have one in stock... Spring open house today though - I may be walking out with a new K1600GTL instead!
Read post #250 in my thread (yes, the LONG one). I list both my original disk thickness as well as the rebuilt one. It turns out my rebuilt one was about the same thickness as yours, but that was with machined metal parts. I think 6.0-6.1 is correct with OEM metal parts.

I was a little concerned when I measured the rebuilt disk as it was in the danger zone from Sailor's information. However, Southland did the measurements and calculations correctly as my clutch disengaged fine once the air was completely purged. If only the clutch didn't chatter during initial engagement at low RPM. I think they must have machined one of the metal parts ever so slightly off-axis...

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post #31 of 46 Old Mar 25th, 2017, 7:16 pm
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Re: Clutch Help

When I was a small job machinist I had shaved down clutch and brake disc's on several occasions but had to ensure the rivet were set deep enough leaving enough clutch disc friction material.
Perhaps a small job shop could help or a K1600 is in your future!
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post #32 of 46 Old Mar 25th, 2017, 7:32 pm
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Re: Clutch Help

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gino View Post
Was purchased from a member here a few years back and, yes, touted as an "OEM replacement" - so not sure if this was a known issue back then, and I didn't think anything of it, and may not have been a known issue by the seller. Life is too short and I want to ride so taking the hit and moving on.

BBY has clutch plate for $260 - I plan on maybe having this bike for another year (or less) so the stock clutch plate is OK with me (the last one installed 80k ago)... If dealer doesn't have one I'll order from BBY.

Thanks all for the input - looks like I'm on the right track.
That $260 from BBY is the oil proof one I got. It is a nice well made plate and for a few dollars more than the stock OEM price from MAX. Too bad they are currently out of the basic plus as the reports of it are better than stock for a good price.

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post #33 of 46 Old Mar 25th, 2017, 7:56 pm
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Re: Clutch Help

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Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post
That $260 from BBY is the oil proof one I got. It is a nice well made plate and for a few dollars more than the stock OEM price from MAX. Too bad they are currently out of the basic plus as the reports of it are better than stock for a good price.
I still wish I could turn back the clock and but the $104 disk from BBY and use my stock parts with a good cleaning and sanding. I would have shamed several hundred dollars and had a shudder-free clutch. But I digress...
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post #34 of 46 Old Mar 25th, 2017, 8:22 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Clutch Help

Well went with stock from dealer because 1) they had one in stock and 2) they were having a spring open house so I saved 15% off list price. Better than a sharp stick in the eye, but not by much

Yes - several K1600GTLs in stock - financing deals until end of April so there's still time, and my birthday is right around the corner.

New stock clutch measures 5.83mm thick consistently all around - you wouldn't think the extra thickness would make that much difference (it is ~10% thicker if you think about it that way). One of these days when I'm bored I need to work out the math as to why that small of a difference translates to 3/8" more throw on the push-rod (probably some complex math to work out given the curvature of the spring plate, spring tension, etc.).

Hopefully back on the road for a test ride tomorrow.

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post #35 of 46 Old Mar 25th, 2017, 8:34 pm
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Re: Clutch Help

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gino View Post
Well went with stock from dealer because 1) they had one in stock and 2) they were having a spring open house so I saved 15% off list price. Better than a sharp stick in the eye, but not by much

Yes - several K1600GTLs in stock - financing deals until end of April so there's still time, and my birthday is right around the corner.

New stock clutch measures 5.83mm thick consistently all around - you wouldn't think the extra thickness would make that much difference (it is ~10% thicker if you think about it that way). One of these days when I'm bored I need to work out the math as to why that small of a difference translates to 3/8" more throw on the push-rod (probably some complex math to work out given the curvature of the spring plate, spring tension, etc.).

Hopefully back on the road for a test ride tomorrow.
I suspect it is a combination of the lever arm ratio and the fact that the lever is a spring rather than a rigid beam.

Glad to hear you got the right parts. I am surprised how thin the factory disk is. My original disk had 56,000 miles on it and was thicker than your new one. However, you definitely should disengage cleanly now.

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post #36 of 46 Old Mar 25th, 2017, 9:02 pm
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Re: Clutch Help

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New stock clutch measures 5.83mm thick consistently all around - you wouldn't think the extra thickness would make that much difference (it is ~10% thicker if you think about it that way). .
about 12% actually BUT only 1/32" & I don't feel enough to cause the issue you're experiencing.
Did you replace the clutch plate? Its comparative thickness?

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post #37 of 46 Old Mar 25th, 2017, 9:23 pm
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Re: Clutch Help

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about 12% actually BUT only 1/32" & I don't feel enough to cause the issue you're experiencing.
Did you replace the clutch plate? Its comparative thickness?
It is absolutely enough to cause the issue. The ratio between slave movement and pressure plate movement has to be quite high in order to not have horrendous clutch lever effort. My clutch slave was only about 0.23" from the housing when it contacted the pushrod. A leverage ratio of 8:1 would make a 1/32" thickness difference equal 1/4" at the pushrod. I suspect the ratio is at least that much and possibly more.

I don't recall the details now, but I seem to recall someone in Australia doing some measurements on this when they got a too thick Chinese disk. A little thickness variation made a huge difference in pushrod position.

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post #38 of 46 Old Mar 26th, 2017, 1:06 am Thread Starter
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Re: Clutch Help

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about 12% actually BUT only 1/32" & I don't feel enough to cause the issue you're experiencing.
Did you replace the clutch plate? Its comparative thickness?
The bike has 130k on it and the clutch was replaced at around 40k under warranty (leaking rear-main).

Not knowing what the quality of the parts would be, I erred on the side of being real cautious (needing to or not) and replaced everything clutch related that may have "worn" (diaphragm ring, pressure plate, housing cover) except the clutch housing and spacer ring.

Only the clutch disc was on-hand from a previous purchase as described earlier. With the new clutch disc purchased today, everything (now) is new. If this still doesn't work I'll be having a "fire" sale on this bike...

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post #39 of 46 Old Mar 26th, 2017, 7:05 am
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Re: Clutch Help

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Originally Posted by Gino View Post
The bike has 130k on it and the clutch was replaced at around 40k under warranty (leaking rear-main).

Not knowing what the quality of the parts would be, I erred on the side of being real cautious (needing to or not) and replaced everything clutch related that may have "worn" (diaphragm ring, pressure plate, housing cover) except the clutch housing and spacer ring.

Only the clutch disc was on-hand from a previous purchase as described earlier. With the new clutch disc purchased today, everything (now) is new. If this still doesn't work I'll be having a "fire" sale on this bike...
I am betting it works fine.

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post #40 of 46 Old Mar 26th, 2017, 7:43 am
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Re: Clutch Help

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gino View Post
Well went with stock from dealer because 1) they had one in stock and 2) they were having a spring open house so I saved 15% off list price. Better than a sharp stick in the eye, but not by much
,,,,
,,,,,
Gino,
Just a reminder...

BMW shop-manual also recommends to always replace the 6 bolts holding the clutch package together (Part no: 21 21 1 454 417). These have pretty low torque tightening values, but given the amount of work involved to go back there (and potential damage in case of failure), I would NOT take any chance ;-)

QUESTION for GINO:
In your original post (top of thread), you said you ave replaced the "pressure-plate". Are you sure it was a new pressure plate bought at a BMW dealer (part no: 21 21 2 332 974). Although not as common as the "made-in-China" Friction-plate problem, there has been a few cases on K1200RS forum of using the incorrect pressure-plate. This was caused by fact the early K1200RS (1997-1998) had a different thickness pressure plate (with matching friction disk). These different (but very similar look alike) pressure plate were used on some K1100 models.

I do not currently have a new K1200LT/RS pressure plate to take measurement, but based on feedback from another member on K1200RS forum, the correct pressure-plate thickness should be 10.85 mm (from the flat surface to the raised section of the tabs on the back). The older / incorrect one is thicker (about 11.1 mm).
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post #41 of 46 Old Mar 26th, 2017, 8:07 am
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Re: Clutch Help

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Gino,
Just a reminder...
Because these are "one-time-use" only, you also need to buy a new large Nut and new O-ring (center of clutch). The large nut gets stretched every time it is installed and the O-Ring gets compressed (and somewhat potentially damaged by removal). LARGE NUT part no is: 11 21 1 460 673

BMW shop-manual also recommends to always replace the 6 bolts holding the clutch package together (Part no: 21 21 1 454 417). These have pretty low torque tightening values, but given the amount of work involved to go back there (and potential damage in case of failure), I would NOT take any chance ;-)

QUESTION for GINO:
In your original post (top of thread), you said you ave replaced the "pressure-plate". Are you sure it was a new pressure plate bought at a BMW dealer (part no: 21 21 2 332 974). Although not as common as the "made-in-China" Friction-plate problem, there has been a few cases on K1200RS forum of using the incorrect pressure-plate. This was caused by fact the early K1200RS (1997-1998) had a different thickness pressure plate (with matching friction disk). These different (but very similar look alike) pressure plate were used on some K1100 models.
I know it is risky questioning Sailor, but I believe the large nut he refers to holds the flywheel on (BMW uses some other nonstandard name), but to me the part that bolts to the engine will always be the flywheel. This should only have to come off for crank seal work, not for clutch only as I recall. This uses a split nut that deforms when tightened and thus should not be used again. See picture.

The six bolts and star washers that hold the clutch cover on are, in my opinion, a different story. They are not torqued to yield or even to a high value for their size. BMW recommends they not be used again. I used mine again when I had to remove the disk to return to Southland for rivet repair. I see two possible issues here: fatigue of the bolts (yielding has been ruled out already) and distortion of the star lock washers. I ruled out fatigue since the bolts had seen no operating loads let alone any stress reversals. I inspected the lock washers and the edges were still sharp and the washers had good twist in the locking tabs. I used my engineering judgement and decided to reuse mine. However, Sailor's recommendation is what BMW recommends and thus is clearly the conservative recommendation.
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post #42 of 46 Old Mar 26th, 2017, 8:19 am
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Re: Clutch Help

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Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
I know it is risky questioning Sailor, but I believe the large nut he refers to holds the flywheel on (BMW uses some other nonstandard name), but to me the part that bolts to the engine will always be the flywheel. This should only have to come off for crank seal work, not for clutch only as I recall. This uses a split nut that deforms when tightened and thus should not be used again. See picture.

The six bolts and star washers that hold the clutch cover on are, in my opinion, a different story. They are not torqued to yield or even to a high value for their size. BMW recommends they not be used again. I used mine again when I had to remove the disk to return to Southland for rivet repair. I see two possible issues here: fatigue of the bolts (yielding has been ruled out already) and distortion of the star lock washers. I ruled out fatigue since the bolts had seen no operating loads let alone any stress reversals. I inspected the lock washers and the edges were still sharp and the washers had good twist in the locking tabs. I used my engineering judgement and decided to reuse mine. However, Sailor's recommendation is what BMW recommends and thus is clearly the conservative recommendation.
OOPPS.... I guess I should not post too early in morning with a too-short sleeping period....
YOU ARE 100% CORRECT that in his case, there is no need to remove the clutch hub (back), hence there is no need to remove the large Nut or O-ring. The system let me edit my post for a few hours, so I just deleted this 1st useless/confusing paragraph ;-)

For the 6 smaller bolts, I was just issuing a warning of what I would do based on being conservative (and BMW recommendations). BUT... I do agree that it might be an overkill from a pure technical standpoint.

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post #43 of 46 Old Mar 26th, 2017, 8:26 am
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Re: Clutch Help

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OOPPS.... I guess I should not post too early in morning with a too-short sleeping period...l.
YOU ARE 100% CORRECT that in his case, there is no need to remove the clutch hub (back), hence there is no need to remove the large Nut or O-ring.

For the 6 smaller bolts, I was just issuing a warning of what I would do based on being conservative (and BMW recommendations). BUT... I do agree that it might be an overkill from a pure technical standpoint.
I waited until my first cup of coffee was halfway gone before posting.

Your recommendation is the correct one as it is what BMW recommends. I decided to use my 32 years of engineering judgement to go against that, but I would not recommend others do that without making their own analysis. Ask me after 50,000 miles if my judgement was correct.

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post #44 of 46 Old Apr 5th, 2017, 3:56 pm
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Re: Clutch Help

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Just finished up a clutch rebuild and am having a problem - hope someone here can help out.
Gino, you get it sorted out yet? Spring is here!

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post #45 of 46 Old Apr 6th, 2017, 1:14 am Thread Starter
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Re: Clutch Help

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Gino, you get it sorted out yet? Spring is here!
What a difference 0.7mm makes! Would have had it back together sooner but work got in the way .

Engine is back in place, trans is back in place - clutch lever is operating as needed and I can spin output shaft in first gear with clutch lever pulled, and it binds up when lever is let out - so it looks like I'm good to go!

Getting rain (!) the next couple of days so will be good to go for Sunday after getting the remainder of beast put back together...
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post #46 of 46 Old Apr 6th, 2017, 6:33 am
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Re: Clutch Help

GREAT NEWS! Glad it's all coming together.

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