'05 STALL AT 1.6K-2K RPM - BMW Luxury Touring Community
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post #1 of 82 Old Feb 25th, 2017, 9:51 pm Thread Starter
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'05 STALL AT 1.6K-2K RPM

Just sold my Softail Deluxe a few months ago and purchased an '05 KLT. It was running slightly on the rough side and the seller suggested adding Seafoam to new gas, since it had been sitting, which I did. It has 42k miles and I've added about 400 miles in the two weeks I've had it. Have to say it's been running pretty good other than an occasional bump at idle that felt like a cylinder misfire.
Two days ago, I was sitting at a red light and when the light turned green, the engine stalled when I started to take off. When I'd restart the engine, it would continue to stall. Each time, it would start again easily but as soon as I increase the RPM, it would stall.
After trailering it back home, it would start easily with a smooth idle and I realized it would run if I rolled the throttle to a point where it would redline if I didn't let off. It wouldn't stall if I kept it between 3k and 7k rpm's but if I got it around 1.6k-2k, it would kill the engine. I also noticed that when I put the bike in reverse, the rpm's wouldn't increase and there were no dash light indicating a problem.

Previous work by seller:
Installed braided brake lines.
Changed the fuel quick connects.
Changed all fluids and filters.
Removed canister.

I've cheched the TVA and the bolts are tight and the wire plug is secure. Anyone have any idea what the problem might be?Any suggestions for a solution?
Thanks for your help!
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post #2 of 82 Old Feb 25th, 2017, 10:00 pm
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Re: '05 STALL AT 1.6K-2K RPM

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Originally Posted by Bomajoma View Post
Just sold my Softail Deluxe a few months ago and purchased an '05 KLT. It was running slightly on the rough side and the seller suggested adding Seafoam to new gas, since it had been sitting, which I did. It has 42k miles and I've added about 400 miles in the two weeks I've had it. Have to say it's been running pretty good other than an occasional bump at idle that felt like a cylinder misfire.
Two days ago, I was sitting at a red light and when the light turned green, the engine stalled when I started to take off. When I'd restart the engine, it would continue to stall. Each time, it would start again easily but as soon as I increase the RPM, it would stall.
After trailering it back home, it would start easily with a smooth idle and I realized it would run if I rolled the throttle to a point where it would redline if I didn't let off. It wouldn't stall if I kept it between 3k and 7k rpm's but if I got it around 1.6k-2k, it would kill the engine. I also noticed that when I put the bike in reverse, the rpm's wouldn't increase and there were no dash light indicating a problem.

Previous work by seller:
Installed braided brake lines.
Changed the fuel quick connects.
Changed all fluids and filters.
Removed canister.

I've cheched the TVA and the bolts are tight and the wire plug is secure. Anyone have any idea what the problem might be?Any suggestions for a solution?
Thanks for your help!
Welcome to the forum Bomajoma. Could be a few things causing this. First I would open the tank and make sure that when you look in and turn the key on, do you see any excessive movement of fuel in the tank? The connecting fuel lines inside the tank are made of rubber or some submersible compound but they don't hold up as long in the ethanol laced fuels so there is a possibility one has sprung a leak and is not maintaining proper fuel pressure in the line. This will definitely affect the running of the bike and if bad enough, will keep it from running at all.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #3 of 82 Old Feb 26th, 2017, 7:18 am Thread Starter
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Re: '05 STALL AT 1.6K-2K RPM

Thanks Gordon, I'll take a look. May try to get a gauge on the fuel line. Pressure should be around 49-50 psi, right?
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post #4 of 82 Old Feb 26th, 2017, 7:55 am
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Re: '05 STALL AT 1.6K-2K RPM

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Thanks Gordon, I'll take a look. May try to get a gauge on the fuel line. Pressure should be around 49-50 psi, right?
Yes for a T in line. If you dead head it, it can go much higher. Also make sure you are on the pressure side, as if I need to say that

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
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post #5 of 82 Old Feb 26th, 2017, 8:56 am Thread Starter
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Re: '05 STALL AT 1.6K-2K RPM

Would a problem with the fuel pump, filter or one of the lines allow easy start and smooth idle while causing it to stall with slight rpm increase but still allow it to to rev high?
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post #6 of 82 Old Feb 26th, 2017, 8:57 am Thread Starter
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Re: '05 STALL AT 1.6K-2K RPM

And the lack of rpm increase in reverse has ne confused.
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post #7 of 82 Old Feb 27th, 2017, 6:40 pm
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Re: '05 STALL AT 1.6K-2K RPM

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And the lack of rpm increase in reverse has ne confused.
You should get the increase rpm in reverse only when you have the starter button pushed and are actively backing up, but it should be there. The starter button (during reverse) is routed to the reverser controller that then sends a signal to the ECU to bump up the idle. It, along with the stalling could be a result of a failure of the Throttle Valve Actuator. More reliable troubleshooting will require assistance from some one with a GS-911 diagnostic unit. John (user sailor) also has great experience in this area and perhaps he will chime in to assist.
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post #8 of 82 Old Feb 27th, 2017, 11:25 pm Thread Starter
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Re: '05 STALL AT 1.6K-2K RPM

Thanks John!
I just tried to send Sailor a PM asking about the TVA but because I haven't submitted 15 posts, the message wouldn't go thru. I read his reply written in 2014 to a post titled, "If it was a horse, I'd shoot it". He mentioned testing the TVA by putting the bike in reverse. By all means Sailor, chime in please!
I took out the fuel pump and I'm waiting on a filter, nylon hoses and the sleeve that goes below the pump. The filter arms and hoses had a white, powdery residue on them and the sleeve had a smalll hole. Not sure what effect that will have but I'm sure it won't hurt.
I'm open to any ideas!
Bob
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post #9 of 82 Old Feb 28th, 2017, 12:15 am Thread Starter
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One more thing....I noticed the jacket on the two small wires on the fuel pump had pieces missing. Could this cause a problem.
While I have the tank off, what's the best way to clean it out?
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post #10 of 82 Old Feb 28th, 2017, 1:03 am
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Re: '05 STALL AT 1.6K-2K RPM

Hey Bomajoma!
Congratulations on your new KLT, one of the best touring bikes available (in my opinion), especially if you like to ride two up.
I've had my LT since 2007, and it has been dead nuts reliable.

It sounds like the PO of your bike knew there was something not right ..... thus the "sea foam" suggestion.
That stuff is to make you feel good. Doesn't really fix anything.

changing the internal tank fuel lines is good preventive MTX.

My money is on chaffed spark plug wires and / or worn out plugs. Always go for the simple stuff first.

Also make sure that the fuel tank is vented to atmosphere & the purge hose from the manifold is plugged properly (PO did a canisterectomy?) ensure no vacuum leaks.

Make sure to let us know how it goes!

Rand

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post #11 of 82 Old Feb 28th, 2017, 7:37 am
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Re: '05 STALL AT 1.6K-2K RPM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomajoma View Post
Thanks John!
I just tried to send Sailor a PM asking about the TVA but because I haven't submitted 15 posts, the message wouldn't go thru. I read his reply written in 2014 to a post titled, "If it was a horse, I'd shoot it". He mentioned testing the TVA by putting the bike in reverse. By all means Sailor, chime in please!
I took out the fuel pump and I'm waiting on a filter, nylon hoses and the sleeve that goes below the pump. The filter arms and hoses had a white, powdery residue on them and the sleeve had a smalll hole. Not sure what effect that will have but I'm sure it won't hurt.
I'm open to any ideas!
Bob

Bob,
Although I am familiar with the Motronic EFI system of these K1200, troubleshooting at a distance is always more difficult. In addition, since you bought this 2005 recently from a previous owner (my understanding), we CANNOT assume as much about maintenance history / modifications done / change in behavior over time...

Based on this sentence you wrote in your 1st post:
"It wouldn't stall if I kept it between 3k and 7k rpm's but if I got it around 1.6k-2k, it would kill the engine."
I would guess it is NOT fuel-pressure related (not pump.. or damaged hoses inside tank.. or filter... or fuel-pressure regulator). In most cases, these would make symptoms worse when more fuel is needed at higher RPM.

Of course, above text is based on my assumption that bike can accelerate and has good power at higher RPM - correct ??

MORE Questions: you said you remove the charcoal canister (in your 1st post).. HOW did you plug the hose(s) coming out of the 4 linked vacuum hoses at throttle bodies. A picture would help me confirm what you did. This can cause vacuum leak that may be part of your problem.


-------------------------------------------------
About the fast idle not working in Reverse:
-------------------------------------------------
Before we suspect TVA (idle actuator) is defective, we need to know IF you ALSO see an idle that is too low (normal idle in neutral when cold or warm).

Another important data point on a used bike: during last 2 years, there has a sudden popularity in buying a chip to upgrade Motronic unit in many K1200 forums (a guy on EBAY sells these). I do not have all the data to prove this yet, but I suspect he started from a base K1200RS chip and modified the mapping (in some cases). If this assumption is correct, it would explain why the reverser cannot command the ECU to increase idle on some K1200LT (as the base program of a K1200RS chip may not have this code - no reverse on a K1200RS).

If you have access to a GS911, we could do 2 things:
(1) read for any fault codes in memory
(2) check what version / part number for your Moronic chip (and prove if indeed it is a K1200RS code base)
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Last edited by sailor; Feb 28th, 2017 at 7:44 am.
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post #12 of 82 Old Feb 28th, 2017, 8:09 am
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Re: '05 STALL AT 1.6K-2K RPM

AS Sailor said, here is what to look for on the canister removal. The purge valve needs to be blocked so check the line that comes off it if it is still present and make sure it is properly plugged. I pulled the line completely out and placed a vacuum plug over it. Also, one or more of the 4 vacuum lines that come off the purge valve to the throttle body might be off causing some issues marked with red arrows. There are 4 but I can only see and mark 2 in my picture. I also have the TVA marked for location purposes.

Cleaning the tank is pretty easy with the pump removed. You can pull the sending tube off the top right and get a better view inside to make sure there is no debris but you can flush anything out through the pump opening.

If you decide you might need plug wires, Euro Motoelectric sells a nice NGK set with proper fitment for the LT.
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2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #13 of 82 Old Feb 28th, 2017, 8:25 am
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Re: '05 STALL AT 1.6K-2K RPM

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Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post
AS Sailor said, here is what to look for on the canister removal. The purge valve needs to be blocked so check the line that comes off it if it is still present and make sure it is properly plugged. I pulled the line completely out and placed a vacuum plug over it. Also, one or more of the 4 vacuum lines that come off the purge valve to the throttle body might be off causing some issues marked with red arrows. There are 4 but I can only see and mark 2 in my picture. I also have the TVA marked for location purposes.

Cleaning the tank is pretty easy with the pump removed. You can pull the sending tube off the top right and get a better view inside to make sure there is no debris but you can flush anything out through the pump opening.

If you decide you might need plug wires, Euro Motoelectric sells a nice NGK set with proper fitment for the LT.
Because all other K1200LT/RS outside the USA do not have a purge valve (and no canister), you are allowed to do this and make it even simpler:
(1) remove purge valve solenoid completely and leave the electrical connector attached to fuel-rail with a zip tie

(2) make sure you remove the white plastic "T" at middle section of vacuum-hoses. Just replace with a straight short section of new hose between vacuum of cylinder 2 and 3)

I have never tried to prove this assumption, but I suspect the Motronic ECU may change its behavior slightlly when/if it sees there is no "live" connection at the purge valve . Item 1 and 2 above is how all K1200RS/LT where designed and shipped from factory for Europe and Canada.
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post #14 of 82 Old Feb 28th, 2017, 8:46 am
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Re: '05 STALL AT 1.6K-2K RPM

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Bob,
"I would guess it is NOT fuel-pressure related (not pump.. or damaged hoses inside tank.. or filter... or fuel-pressure regulator). In most cases, these would make symptoms worse when more fuel is needed at higher RPM."
While I admit you know more about these bikes then I'll ever know but I have a question about this statement. The reason is when I had a hole in an internal fuel line, my LT would hesitate and die on takeoff if the RPM was under 2k (particularly if the brown wire was connected and above 80F). At higher RPM and at speed I had no issues and the only other discernible issue I saw was a reduction in fuel economy. Like your statement said, I would of expected the opposite due to the higher demand at higher RPM but that wasn't the case. Now I will admit that in all probability the engine was running lean due to the lack of fuel supply but not enough for me to notice from the seat of my pants.

Correct me if I'm wrong, when you have a small hole in the fuel pump/lines at idle the fuel regulator is dumping the excess fuel/pressure back to the tank due to low demand and moderate supply. When you throttle on, the engine momentarily starves due to the increase in fuel demand but lack of supply until the regulator can allow the proper fuel volume/pressure to get to the engine. By the time you get to >2k the regulator has closed allowing fuel to get to the engine in sufficient volume to run. While it has sufficient volume while running at higher RPM the AFR is lean due to the hole in the system.
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post #15 of 82 Old Feb 28th, 2017, 9:44 am
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Re: '05 STALL AT 1.6K-2K RPM

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While I admit you know more about these bikes then I'll ever know but I have a question about this statement. The reason is when I had a hole in an internal fuel line, my LT would hesitate and die on takeoff if the RPM was under 2k (particularly if the brown wire was connected and above 80F). At higher RPM and at speed I had no issues and the only other discernible issue I saw was a reduction in fuel economy. Like your statement said, I would of expected the opposite due to the higher demand at higher RPM but that wasn't the case. Now I will admit that in all probability the engine was running lean due to the lack of fuel supply but not enough for me to notice from the seat of my pants.

Correct me if I'm wrong, when you have a small hole in the fuel pump/lines at idle the fuel regulator is dumping the excess fuel/pressure back to the tank due to low demand and moderate supply. When you throttle on, the engine momentarily starves due to the increase in fuel demand but lack of supply until the regulator can allow the proper fuel volume/pressure to get to the engine. By the time you get to >2k the regulator has closed allowing fuel to get to the engine in sufficient volume to run. While it has sufficient volume while running at higher RPM the AFR is lean due to the hole in the system.
In your case, assuming that ONLY the damaged fuel hose in-tank was replaced to fix the problem, indeed yours would certainly be an oddball exception. At the minimum, It should / would have behaved bad at higher RPM or higher fuel demand when accelerating. I am ALWAYS willing to change / improve my knowledge, but I cannot apply an exception like yours unless I have all the data on what else was change to fix the issue.

Even for a car, on most EFI system having a return hose with a fuel-regulator in line (or in the rail), we can pretty much assume that:
(1) the fuel-pump has so much extra capacity that a lot is returned to the tank (unless you are full throttle for a longer period then you may meet 50% of a perfect new pump capacity)

(2) the fuel pressure is constant as the pump runs at same speed even if your engine is idling. However many bike and car have a small vacuum hose that goes to fuel pressure regulator to reduce regulator pressure at high vacuum (idling mainly). The K100 had this, but NOT the K1200LT.

OF COURSE, the above statements / facts do not apply to more recent EFI system that BMW has used on many models after 2004. These have no return fuel hose and instead have a device that serves as an electronic fuel pressure regulator (getting data / command from ECU depending on conditions).

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K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 91,000 miles)
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post #16 of 82 Old Feb 28th, 2017, 9:58 am
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Re: '05 STALL AT 1.6K-2K RPM

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailor View Post
Because all other K1200LT/RS outside the USA do not have a purge valve (and no canister), you are allowed to do this and make it even simpler:
(1) remove purge valve solenoid completely and leave the electrical connector attached to fuel-rail with a zip tie

(2) make sure you remove the white plastic "T" at middle section of vacuum-hoses. Just replace with a straight short section of new hose between vacuum of cylinder 2 and 3)

I have never tried to prove this assumption, but I suspect the Motronic ECU may change its behavior slightlly when/if it sees there is no "live" connection at the purge valve . Item 1 and 2 above is how all K1200RS/LT where designed and shipped from factory for Europe and Canada.
I am going to be in that area soon as I plan on changing my external fuel line to steel braided polyurethane to handle the ethanol better along with some Jiffy Tite QD's so I can pull off the purge plug and see if it throws a code with my GS911 or changes behavior. I always assumed people left it connected to avoid the error. There has to be some code in the ECU to support the purge function so is that code also present in non US models?

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #17 of 82 Old Feb 28th, 2017, 10:50 am Thread Starter
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Re: '05 STALL AT 1.6K-2K RPM

Thanks Rand! The PO had bought a Goldwing and the KLT had sat for a few months. I did test ride but noticed a slight miss from time to time. I called the seller and that's when he suggested the Seafoam.
The seller removed the canister and also changed the plugs and wires within the last 2k miles. I will remove the trunk and post pics of what the vaccum lines look like.
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post #18 of 82 Old Feb 28th, 2017, 11:02 am
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Re: '05 STALL AT 1.6K-2K RPM

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I am going to be in that area soon as I plan on changing my external fuel line to steel braided polyurethane to handle the ethanol better along with some Jiffy Tite QD's so I can pull off the purge plug and see if it throws a code with my GS911 or changes behavior. I always assumed people left it connected to avoid the error. There has to be some code in the ECU to support the purge function so is that code also present in non US models?
To the best of my knowledge, there will be no problem and no faults even if purge valve is disconnected (assuming vacuum hoses are plugged / linked properly).

Although they added these components (canister, purge valve) for USA specs, they did NOT change the ECU part numbers for various markets.

Just for the K1200LT, they have produced at least 7 variants of Motronic ECU with different part numbers. In reality, now we only need 2 as they sell only the latest "improved" version in parts fiche (1 for 1st generation 1999-2004 and another for 2nd generation engine 2005-2009)

The ECU part number changes across various years was due to these reasons ONLY:
(1) imrovements and correction to codes / maps to fix issues with early models (1998-1999 mainly).
(2) addition of a 2nd map to fix issue related to brown wire
(3) change of engine design and HP on 2005-2009
(4) need to meet Euro3 emissions specs that became law in 2002 for motorcycles

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post #19 of 82 Old Feb 28th, 2017, 11:07 am Thread Starter
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Re: '05 STALL AT 1.6K-2K RPM

Thanks for your input Sailor. PO bought the bike from the original owner with about 35k on it. I think the first owner pretty much just put gas in it and rode.
I need to clarify the 3k-7k issue. When I give enough throttle to get above 2k, it will wind out the engine and I have to let off. When this happened on the road, I was able to get it up the road about 60' into an Auto Zone parking lot.
In reference to the canister, the PO removed it. I will remove the trunk and post pics.
As far as the lack of reverse idle increase, this started when the main problem of stalling with slight throttle increase started. Before that, rpm would increase in reverse when I hit the starter button.
I talked to the PO about aftermarket chips and he wasn't familiar and I don't think the original owner would have added one unless he paid to have it installed.
I might have to bite the bullit and buy a GS911.
I bought this bike because it was in my meager budget and hoped for the best. After the test ride, everything seemed good, so I took a chance. I've really enjoyed the 400 miles I've put on it and look forward to getting on the road again. Love this bike!
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post #20 of 82 Old Feb 28th, 2017, 11:20 am
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Re: '05 STALL AT 1.6K-2K RPM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomajoma View Post
Thanks for your input Sailor. PO bought the bike from the original owner with about 35k on it. I think the first owner pretty much just put gas in it and rode.
I need to clarify the 3k-7k issue. When I give enough throttle to get above 2k, it will wind out the engine and I have to let off. When this happened on the road, I was able to get it up the road about 60' into an Auto Zone parking lot.
In reference to the canister, the PO removed it. I will remove the trunk and post pics.
As far as the lack of reverse idle increase, this started when the main problem of stalling with slight throttle increase started. Before that, rpm would increase in reverse when I hit the starter button.
I talked to the PO about aftermarket chips and he wasn't familiar and I don't think the original owner would have added one unless he paid to have it installed.
I might have to bite the bullit and buy a GS911.
I bought this bike because it was in my meager budget and hoped for the best. After the test ride, everything seemed good, so I took a chance. I've really enjoyed the 400 miles I've put on it and look forward to getting on the road again. Love this bike!
OK... so I have a few facts I was not fully aware (I may I have read your previous post too fast):
We can NOW assume the fast idle did work as expected before (while using the reverse), so that rules out any mods of chip or any mistake/defect done prior to your ownership.

The combined symptoms that you describe (staling in certain conditions and lack of fast idle on reverser) could be due to an intake vacuum leak. These are not easy to track unless it is something simple like a vacuum hose that was disconnected by mistake. As always, we need to go back to what was changed / done since problem started. This troubleshooting rule is often the true cause in 50% cases, in particular when change in behavior was sudden (not progressive).

Based on your answer above, I am NOT sure yet if your bike:
(1) will idle properly when warm AND
(2) if the fast idle kicks in when started from cold on center-stand (at least 8 hours since stopped). Unless your parked temp is extremely hot, the RPM should increase to 1300-1500 depending how cold it for duration of about 5 to 20 seconds. NOTES: make sure throttle is fully closed forward at idle-stop before you turn ignition ON, and do NOT touch throttle during the starting sequence.


ABOUT the GS911: many members here have a GS911, so you should post a separate post for a request for help.
Something like "Need GS911 scan in xxxxxxx" where xxxxx is your city, state.

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John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 91,000 miles)
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post #21 of 82 Old Feb 28th, 2017, 12:31 pm
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Re: '05 STALL AT 1.6K-2K RPM

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Thanks Rand! The PO had bought a Goldwing and the KLT had sat for a few months. I did test ride but noticed a slight miss from time to time. I called the seller and that's when he suggested the Seafoam.
The seller removed the canister and also changed the plugs and wires within the last 2k miles. I will remove the trunk and post pics of what the vaccum lines look like.
If the canister was removed, there should be one line from the tank vent out to the back of the bike ( if done properly) No canister and either the remaining line that went the purge valve well plugged or removed and a rubber cap placed on the valve itself.

The spark plug wires are pretty expensive from the dealer ( $63 US each ) so any receipts on what was actually installed would be nice. As said earlier, EME has a buy now proper entire set for $59 US and they are NGK. They are built with a resistor so not just any plug wire will do. that is why I am asking if you got any records or maybe take a look at the plug wire heads to see what they are while you have the left side off. Stock wires have a big metal head on them. Easy to distinguish.

for reference
EnDuraLast - BMW K1200 Ignition Cables ; 12 12 1 464 934, 12 12 1 464 935, 12 12 1 464 936, 12 12 2 305 044

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #22 of 82 Old Feb 28th, 2017, 3:26 pm Thread Starter
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Re: '05 STALL AT 1.6K-2K RPM

John, I'll have to start it once I put it back together and let it get to operating temp. When I started before I tore it down, it would crank up right away with good idle. Didn't let it run more than a minute at most.
There hasn't been any changes to the bike since I bought it and the recent problem started. It was definitely a sudden thing.

Gordon, there is a line from the tank vent to the back of the bike and line to the purge valve is actually plugged with a spent .22 casing. Seems to be in there pretty tight.









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Re: '05 STALL AT 1.6K-2K RPM

Apparently I downloaded four copies of the original photo. Wish this computer fad would pass.
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Re: '05 STALL AT 1.6K-2K RPM

Those are original type so it was $250 if those were replaced recently. If so, they should be OK. If you get to a point where you still have the left side off and the tank attached where it can run. Turn off the lights and look for arcing among the spark plug wires when it is stuttering.
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Sugar Hill, GA
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1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
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post #26 of 82 Old Feb 28th, 2017, 6:22 pm Thread Starter
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Re: '05 STALL AT 1.6K-2K RPM

I keep hearing about cutting a brown wire. What's that about?
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Re: '05 STALL AT 1.6K-2K RPM

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I keep hearing about cutting a brown wire. What's that about?
You can do a search for brown wire and it'll give you all the details. The short of it is many bikes have a low rpm hesitation when the inlet temp is 80 degrees and cutting the wire changes the mapping to get rid of it. Some never find the need, some do.
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Re: '05 STALL AT 1.6K-2K RPM

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I keep hearing about cutting a brown wire. What's that about?
Like St0rm1 said, some LT's were equipped with a dual mapped ECU and cutting " the brown wire" is the way to enable the second ECU map basically one for bikes with a cat converter and one for non US bikes without. Lets not worry about that just now. If the bike runs well normally, you don't need to mess with it. It would not be causing the issue you are seeing so don't add anything new till you get it sorted out.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #29 of 82 Old Feb 28th, 2017, 9:33 pm Thread Starter
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Re: '05 STALL AT 1.6K-2K RPM

Ok, just curious. No problems with idle other than what felt like an occasional miss. Overall, good idle.
Thanks
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Re: '05 STALL AT 1.6K-2K RPM

my 02 has a miss every now and then I have not been able to find the problem no fault codes, was going to replace the coil, its about the only thing I haven't changed

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Re: '05 STALL AT 1.6K-2K RPM

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Originally Posted by Bomajoma View Post
Thanks Rand! The PO had bought a Goldwing and the KLT had sat for a few months. I did test ride but noticed a slight miss from time to time. I called the seller and that's when he suggested the Seafoam.
The seller removed the canister and also changed the plugs and wires within the last 2k miles. I will remove the trunk and post pics of what the vaccum lines look like.
Now I suspect the secondary ignition even more!

The photo of the plug wires shows OEM BMW wires. If they aren't secured correctly to the plugs you may get a misfire under certain conditions. (arcing can be indicated by white spots)

Take a look at the plugs.... If they only have 2,400 miles on them, they should look almost new.
(you can also see if they are the correct type)

Just Thinking.

Rand
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post #32 of 82 Old Mar 1st, 2017, 7:56 am Thread Starter
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Re: '05 STALL AT 1.6K-2K RPM

I can live the slight miss from time to time. It's the engine dying with slight throttle increase that's the main problem. Waiting on fuel filter, pump sleeve and hoses but don't think that's the answer. Think I'll have to find someone that has a GS911 or end up buying one myself. I have a separate post looking for a GS911 in south Louisiana.
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Re: '05 STALL AT 1.6K-2K RPM

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I can live the slight miss from time to time. It's the engine dying with slight throttle increase that's the main problem. Waiting on fuel filter, pump sleeve and hoses but don't think that's the answer. Think I'll have to find someone that has a GS911 or end up buying one myself. I have a separate post looking for a GS911 in south Louisiana.
We are waiting with you Were you able to verify that all 4 small vacuum lines branching off the purge valve were properly attached to the throttle body?

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #34 of 82 Old Mar 1st, 2017, 8:19 am Thread Starter
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Re: '05 STALL AT 1.6K-2K RPM

All attached Gordon. The one line that went to the canister is plugged with a .22 casing and it looks airtight. Have the one line going from the tank vent that's coupled with, what I'm assuming is the old cannister line and runs out the back of the bike.

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Re: '05 STALL AT 1.6K-2K RPM

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All attached Gordon. The one line that went to the canister is plugged with a .22 casing and it looks airtight. Have the one line going from the tank vent that's coupled with, what I'm assuming is the old cannister line and runs out the back of the bike.

OK, then we wait till you get your pieces installed for Sailor to continue assisting. If this doesn't fix it, I hope we can get you connected with a GS911.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #36 of 82 Old Mar 1st, 2017, 8:18 pm Thread Starter
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Re: '05 STALL AT 1.6K-2K RPM

I'm still waiting on the vibration dampers for the fuel pump so I pulled the plugs to see how they looked. I'm no plug expert but they look fouled to me. They were wet with fuel when I pulled them so that would mean a overly rich AFR, right? I know it could be other things but it's also another indication of a possible vacuum leak.


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Re: '05 STALL AT 1.6K-2K RPM

Previous owner included 4 NGK Iridium IX (DCPR7EIX) plugs. Think I'll just go ahead and pop those in.
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Re: '05 STALL AT 1.6K-2K RPM

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I'm still waiting on the vibration dampers for the fuel pump so I pulled the plugs to see how they looked. I'm no plug expert but they look fouled to me. They were wet with fuel when I pulled them so that would mean a overly rich AFR, right? I know it could be other things but it's also another indication of a possible vacuum leak.


They don't yet look fouled but it does look like it has been running rich, What NGK plugs are those? I wonder if they are the correct heat range. Here are my Bosch XR7LDC after about 5K. Replaced with NGK iridium DCPR7EIX ( 6046) Don't have pictures of those yet. Yours almost look glazed but no oil or carbon buildup. Possible low fuel pressure and inefficient injector firing due to that might be a possible cause and you are already looking into that. Engine temp sensor out of range causing a richer mixture. I think I remember Sailor had a few resistance measurements for those sensors to get a ballpark reading on if the sensor was way out in left field. After I damaged one by not removing the cable and lowering the engine and transmission, the shop said they sell a lot of them. If it is either shorted or open, it really causes the bike to run badly.
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2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #39 of 82 Old Mar 2nd, 2017, 1:25 am
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Re: '05 STALL AT 1.6K-2K RPM

What has your gas mileage been?
Should be around 47.

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Re: '05 STALL AT 1.6K-2K RPM

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.... so I pulled the plugs to see how they looked. I'm no plug expert but they look fouled to me. They were wet with fuel when I pulled them so that would mean a overly rich AFR, right? I know it could be other things but it's also another indication of a possible vacuum leak.
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Previous owner included 4 NGK Iridium IX (DCPR7EIX) plugs. Think I'll just go ahead and pop those in.
In general, I do not put too much value into plug readings UNLESS you took them out after a good ride (fully warm-up) AND not too much stop-go traffic was involved (or too much idling).

Plug reading is a nice science, but taken out of context and with an engine is not perfectly tuned, it is subject to distortion. Of course, if someone is very familiar with a given engine history, he may be able to interpret your case better (if he knows all conditions / behavior before plugs were removed).

ALSO, as mentioned in previous post, you may have wrong plug type or range. For K1200 "brick-engine", some alternate plugs (other than factory XR7LDC) have caused non-optimum engine behavior. In modern EFI engines, the plug selection as tested by factory is more critical than on an old single-cylinder motorcycle of 1970s (or any other simple carburator engine).

I know many K1200RS/LT owners who have been happy with DCPR7EIX, but a few other felt the engine was not as smooth as with factory BOSCH XR7LDC. Just to eliminate the old plugs as a potential cause, in your case it is a good idea to try this new set of DCPR7EIX,

MAKE SURE you really push back these plug caps otherwise you will get misfire. In fact, to understand how they feel, you may want to practice with an old plug in your hand pushing the cap fully in - if correct it will be difficult to pull it back.
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K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 91,000 miles)
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post #41 of 82 Old Mar 2nd, 2017, 7:45 am Thread Starter
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Re: '05 STALL AT 1.6K-2K RPM

Rand - Mileage has been about 40mpg.
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Re: '05 STALL AT 1.6K-2K RPM

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Rand - Mileage has been about 40mpg.
That seems like a descent number to me. If your o2 sensor was bad, you'd be getting crappy mileage.

I believe that once you get the ignition issue worked out, (those look like the wrong spark plugs to me)
and ensure no vacuum leakage, your LT will run nice and smooth (I hope).

You just gotta believe!
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Re: '05 STALL AT 1.6K-2K RPM

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That seems like a descent number to me. If your o2 sensor was bad, you'd be getting crappy mileage.

I believe that once you get the ignition issue worked out, (those look like the wrong spark plugs to me)
and ensure no vacuum leakage, your LT will run nice and smooth (I hope).

You just gotta believe!
I suspect there are multiple problems. A random one cylinder miss certainly points to ignition problrm. Severe sagging and stalling as throttle is opened, points to fuel mixture issue, either fuel starvation or excess air.

I would confirm ignition system first, proper plugs, wires in good shape, no visible arcing Gwen run in the dark, then look for a vacuum leak.

My LT had a similar issue. It idled great and ran well once underway above 2,500 rpm, but would bog severely off the line requiring blipping of the throttle and slipping of the clutch to avoid stalling. The weird part is it was random. Sometimes it would pull away normally and the next light it would bog on the start.

I had removed my canister and plugged the line at the rear. I am not sure what fixed it as I did several things during the clutch repair. I fixed the leaking crankcase vent system, replaced the O2 sensor and took the pulse valve out of the loop by removing the T between cylinders 2 and 3 and simply interconnecting all vacuum ports like Sailor said is the factory configuration for nonUSA models. LT now runs great all the time.

I can't say what fixed it, but my money is on the vacuum line change. If the issue was the O2 sensor or crankcase vent manifold, the problem should have been fairly consistent. The randomness points me to the pulse valve as that is actuated periodically by the control module.

So, even though your line is plugged where the canister was removed, I would still suggest removing the T fitting for the pulse valve and simply interconnect with a new length of vacuum hose. One less active component to worry about causing issues.
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post #44 of 82 Old Mar 2nd, 2017, 5:47 pm Thread Starter
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Re: '05 STALL AT 1.6K-2K RPM

Gordon, those NGK's are D8EA.

Bob

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and we never even know we have the key."

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post #45 of 82 Old Mar 2nd, 2017, 11:51 pm
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Re: '05 STALL AT 1.6K-2K RPM

NGK D8EA is a $2.50 plug.

There must be a reason why they're so inexpensive.
I just can't imagine how they ended up being installed in a BMW K Engine..........

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Re: '05 STALL AT 1.6K-2K RPM

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NGK D8EA is a $2.50 plug.

There must be a reason why they're so inexpensive.
I just can't imagine how they ended up being installed in a BMW K Engine..........
In my opinion, the issue here is not that it is a basic low-cost NGK, but the fact it is the wrong plug to be a close equivalent to factory (BOSCH XR7LDC). If one would like to run NGK, you should use either:
(1) DCPR7E (regular and cheaper)
(2) DCPR7EIX (Iridium and more expensive)

Saddleman, one well-known long term and long distance member of the K1200LT community has run AUTOLITE 4164 as a substitute spark-plug. As he has posted a while ago, these are available at most auto-store AND they are cheap too (about $US$ 3.00).

Based on Saddleman suggestion (and for science...) I did test the 4164 for a few thousands miles. Bike ran pretty well with about the same fuel mileage. Plug color was good on removal. My only minor complain is the fact the tip is not projected as on the original XR7LDC, hence the spark happens at different place in combustion chamber.

Overall, based on my short experience over 91,000 miles total on the K1200, I prefer using the stock BOSH XR7LDC. Maybe a placebo effect, but I feel that the engine runs smoother than NGK or AUTOLITE (it may have to do with projected tip variation).

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Re: '05 STALL AT 1.6K-2K RPM

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Gordon, those NGK's are D8EA.
Sailor is correct, that's not the correct cross reference plug for the LT. That plug doesn't have a resistor and the heat range is even farther off than the correct cross reference NGK plugs. I'm not sure if the lack of resistor will cause enough interference to present the problems you were experiencing but you definitely want to replace them.
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Re: '05 STALL AT 1.6K-2K RPM

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Gordon, those NGK's are D8EA.
As has been stated several times, those are not the right plugs so following your previous statement of putting in the Iridium plugs is a good idea.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #49 of 82 Old Mar 3rd, 2017, 11:58 am Thread Starter
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Re: '05 STALL AT 1.6K-2K RPM

Got the Iridium plugs in place.

Bob

"So often times it happens, that we live our lives in chains,
and we never even know we have the key."

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'02 Yamaha Royal Star Tour Deluxe (sold)

'98 Triumph Tbird (sold)

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post #50 of 82 Old Mar 3rd, 2017, 12:54 pm
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Re: '05 STALL AT 1.6K-2K RPM

I'm back to using the Bosch spark plugs. The cheaper plugs would only last about 30,000 miles before the LT would have a hard time starting in cold weather.

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