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2007 slipping clutch repair saga

29K views 393 replies 19 participants last post by  Voyager 
#1 · (Edited)
Well, after tolerating a slipping clutch for several years (only slipped occasionally until a year or so ago), I launched into the job this morning. Going reasonably well so far. I am up to page 15 of the 59 pages of the procedure printed from the BMW CD. I am also cross checking my Clymer manual.

A couple of questions for the experts:

1. Is the nut on the EHCS actuator rod a polymer insert locknut or a regular nut heavily loctited? I suspect the former, but I had a heck of a time getting it loose. The wrench on the shaft flats wouldn't hold. I finally heated it until blue liquid bubbled out of the nut. It then came loose, but I am not sure if the nut is reusable. If it was a polymer insert lock nut, it is no more!

2. I tried to remove the left fan duct, but found the wire to the fan runs through a hole in the duct and I can't remove the duct. The right side duct has no hole and the wire went through a slot in the duct. The left side has a similar slot, but it wasn't, unfortunately, used for the wire. I don't see a way to easily unhook the fan wire, can't even see where the wire runs to. Any ideas, short of cutting the wire? I am trying to attach a picture.

3. There are two tie wraps on the fuel rail that hold wires and also have loops to hold a vacuum line. I was hoping not to have to cut them given their special nature, but it looks like I may have to in order to remove the rail. What have the rest of you done with these?

Well, about time to get back to work and hope my lunch break gave the WD40 enough time to help the exhaust header nuts come loose.
 

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#2 · (Edited)
I don't have an EHCS so no comment on #1

#2 If I am remembering correctly, the fan cowl just needs to be removed to gain access to the fuel rail and TB for removal to allow the tilt of the engine. If you don't want to cut the wires, you may be able to tie it out of the way. I can only make a suggestion of finding the connector plug and removing the pins from the plug and snaking them out the hole then reconnecting it.

#3..Take pictures of how all the wires and vacuum hoses are tied up including the routing of the throttle and cruise cables. I just cut the ties as without, you won't have enough access to the crimp clamps and screw clamps holding the TB and air box on.

#4, take pictures. We love pictures :grin:

Good luck.

Make sure when you have the tranny out, you tighten the screw on the starter. I will remind you again once we know you have gotten that far.

On those exhaust headers, DO NOT use the torque table in the Clymer for tightening. 44FT LBS will snap the bolts off. It is 16 Ft Lbs correctly laid out in the text on the previous page.
 
#6 ·
Yes, I am working with wrench in one hand and iPhone in the other. However, it seems that no matter how many you take, you never have the shot you need. ��

And I generally check fastener torques in both BMW and Clymer manuals.
 
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#3 ·
After a closer inspection of your attached photo, you might be able to just cut the plastic on the cowl and pull the wire through. That shouldn't weaken the structure much as long as that notch below is where the wire is supposed to be routed.
 
#4 ·
Yes, that may be a good option. I hate hacking things, but if I can't find the connector for the fan... I can't believe the factory assembled it this way.
 
#7 ·
If you don't have one or if Beech hasn't offered up a Viton O-ring yet, you can PM me and I will send you one. I still have some and am happy to send them no charge.
 
#8 ·
I appreciate the offer! However, I did buy a couple of the Viton o-rings a couple of years ago ... now if I can just remember where I put them.

I figured out the removable zip tie/vacuum line holders on the fuel rail and got that removed OK once I got enough confidence to pull on it hard enough. And I found the fan connector hidden behind the fuel rail and got the unhooked so I could remove the duct. Still working on the throttle bodies as I can't figure out where some things are. The BMW manual says to unhook the crankcase breather hose, but I can't find it. Their picture is a close-up that doesn't show where it is really located. I am going to study the Clymer manual for a while to see if it is more clear. Also, unhooking the cruise control looks to be a little tricky.

The exhaust came off fairly easily. After an hour of soaking in WD40, six of the nuts came off easily, but two pulled out the studs. I removed the nuts from the studs and got them back in place. It was a little tricky getting the exhaust pulled off of that rear anchor, but I finally got it to come free with a few good tugs. Speaking of exhaust, any tricks to remove those copper gaskets which are well swedged into place in the head?

Off to study how to get the rest of the fuel system removed...
 
#10 ·
#1 9 mm on the shaft flats and 13 mm on the nut. Nylon lock nut and you can find it at Lowes.

The straps on the fuel rail are re-usable use a small flat blade to release. The connector is close by for the fan. As you can see I didn't have to go far to remove the shroud.

This is how I made clearance to drop the engine.

It also helps to temporarily replace the two front engine mount bolts with 1/4 bolts. This will give you some lateral swing at the transmission to clear the frame sides.
 

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#13 ·
Thanks, John.

I finally got everything apart with enough heat, but ruined the nylock nut. It was really on there.

I removed more than necessary to just raise the frame as I want to thoroughly clean things and replace rubber parts given that my bike is now 9 years old. The clutch job is a good excuse to really go over the LT.

One other question for you: how do you remove the bushings on the EHCS? I got the large screws out and the springs off, but the manual says to then remove the centerstand, but it appears that the bushings are hanging up in the mount and I don't see any way to get them out from the outside. I think there is a video on youtube that shows disassembly of the EHCS so I may have to see if I can find that. BMW sure likes their Loctite. My Milwaukee heat gun got a real workout today!
 
#14 ·
Here is the status after one day and about 9 hours of working and study time. Would have made it clear to the clutch, but I spent 3 hours just getting off the fuel system as I had not done that before and spent a fair bit of time studying the manuals and checking here and elsewhere.

And, I really want my scissor jack to arrive before I pull the rear wheel.
 

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#15 ·
Looking at your pictures reminded me that when you jack up the back end, you may have to adjust your straps on the front so they don't bind because they will get tighter the higher the rear gets. This isn't immediately obvious to all who do this job.
 
#18 ·
The bushings have a groove and one of them has a circlip to use to pry them out (after you remove the bolt). Then move the circlip to the other side.

I now see why I have the front extension on my lift. I drive up to the wheel stop and deploy the EHCS and it puts the bike centered on the lift. I remove all behind the transmission then jack the back and then remove the center/sidestand assembly. But I see without the front extension you cannot center the bike on the main stand.
 
#20 ·
I was wondering what the purpose of that circling was. I need to get a smaller circling plier as the one I have has tips about 50% too big for the holes in this clip.

Do you mean centered length-wise on the table or side to side?
 
#21 ·
Another question for the cognescenti, does the lower outside mount on the right radiator normally have a clip on it? Mine didn't when I took the side cover off. It almost looks unnecessary as there is quite a gap between the groove for the clip and the rubber bushing. Unless something like a spacer is also missing...
 

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#25 ·
I don't think my lower one had a clip and I was looking for it putting things back on as Panzer pulled the clips off while I was doing something else. All stuff went into cups or bowls for at least some organization. Never found one anywhere so it currently doesn't have one and I suspect it never did as long as I owned it.
 
#26 ·
Both Clymer and BMW recommend supporting the engine and raising the frame. I don't have a hoist, but do have jack stands and scissor jack. It seems to me that lowering the engine is equivalent to raising the frame, other than keeping the engine level which may facilitate transmission removal.

Any reason not to raise the frame fairly high and place on jack stands and then use the scissor jack under the engine and lower it to gain clearance needed?
 
#29 ·
Do you recall how much you had to lower the engine? Did you raise the frame quite high before you started lowering the engine so that the engine was close to level when you began transmission removal?
 
#30 ·
Didn't have to raise it that much. I have small jack stands and they were set as high as they would go. then i strapped them to the frame so they wouldn't move or be knocked out while I torqued on the clutch basket.

It only has to be lowered enough to clear the bottom of the battery box.
 

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#31 ·
The chock I have raised the front of the bike so much that I had to place a board under the CS to get the rear wheel off the ground to remove it. I think I have my jack stands set where the CS is about an inch over the board so 2 or 2 1/2 inches up and I had plenty of space to lower.
 
#32 ·
To ensure I understand, you are saying you lowered the jack under the engine by 2 to 2.5"? Which would be roughly equivalent to raising the rear of the frame by roughly twice that or 4-5".

Or are you saying the rear tire was 2 - 2.5" up when you placed the jack stands?
 
#34 ·
this was mine if it helps
this was my third attempt 1.clutch failed then 2. oil seal leaked from g/box, then shortly after front input shaft bearing collapsed all in a 6 month period,
 
#35 ·
Wow, I hope all is well now after all that work. You probably don't even need a manual now to tear down an LT.
 
#41 ·
My hat is off to you guys who tackle this job. I like Voyagers way of looking at the project , not as one big daunting job but 30 small tasks.
Not being a mechanic, doing this type of job, would scare the shit out of me. Although having this forum to help would almost convince me to tackle it. The real fear being, if I got it back together and it didn't work and had to come apart again or I had to do diagnostic work to get it running correctly. I am just not good at or enjoy wrenching enough or have the patience to sort through all that is required for this work. Hopefully I won't have this decision to make.

Good Luck to all you brave souls.
 
#42 ·
I grew up on a farm early in life, worked on bicycles, mini bikes, and cars as a teen, worked through college as a logger, truck driver and heavy equipment mechanic and have degrees in computer science, EE and structural engineering ... and I still approach the LT with some trepidation. The main issue for me is the number of special tools involved and the tightness of everything. I don't have the smallest hands and getting the fuel system off was especially challenging.

However, I have found with past LT work, CB installation in particular, that the job has not been as bad as I expected. Challenging, which is part of the fun, but not bad.

There are hundreds of fasteners and dozens of electrical connections. However, any given component has only a few fasteners and connections. So approach each step on its own and look at, and photograph, each part before removal. Then during assembly, take a few seconds to look at each part and note all electrical connections, cable connections and fastener holes. Then focus on ensuring that everyone of those gets something in it before you move to the next step. There are some exceptions where a panel has a hole the remains unfilled until overlapped by a later panel, but I address that with pictures and by keeping fasteners on the floor by the part and location they fill. I never liked the practice of throwing fasteners in a cup or bucket as you lose the location information. Just my personal practice.

The last thing is, don't rush and if something isn't coming apart fairly easily, stop and do more research. Read the manual again, search here, ask here. Most things come apart with little force.

I hesitated on the fuel injectors as they didn't come out very easily, but after reading both manuals they said to just pull and I saw no other fasteners or clips. Finally, after rocking it a little and gradually pulling harder, one end let go. The other three then followed suit.

So, study beforehand, take each component as one task, and don't let the magnitude of the overall job psych you out. And take comfort in the fact that you have many LT repair pioneers here who are very generous with their advice should you get stuck. And we all get stuck from time to time.
:smile:
 
#43 ·
Well your thoughts are encouraging. This forum and the $20K was the main reasons I keep the bike and did not get a new one after my extended warranty ran out. I went through much mental anguish wondering whether to get a new bike or keep my LT. Even though I had saved the money for a new bike and after test riding almost every option out there I realized I loved my LT. It was like wearing my favorite comfortable pajamas. Now that I'm retired I really don't have the excess cash to spend sending the LT to the dealer, so I guess whether I like it or not I'll be doing the next major service and/or anything else that is needed.
So I need you wrench head members of this forum to stay involved as long as I on my LT. Deal!
 
#45 ·
Well, after another 3+ hours, I got from the rear wheel to ready to drop the engine for transmission removal. I wish I had a 10 year old to unhook the starter and alternator connections. I spent close to an hour on that part alone.

It appears I will need a full seal replacement in the transmission. The swing arm had a lot of gear oil in the front of it. And the slave cylinder was bathed in gear oil. I suspect the front is also leaking and probably took out the clutch.

I hit a snag in lowering the transmission for removal. It hit the frame on the right side. I thought I could lever it sideways, but with both frame and engine on rigid supports, no luck. That is likely one advantage of hoisting the frame with straps that would allow some side sway.

I suspect I need to use John's smaller engine mount bolt trick to allow the engine to swing side ways a 1/4" or so. John, the left bolt and nut are easy to get to, but I can't see a nut on the right side. It appears to be a blind hole. If this is a blind hole, how do you install a smaller bolt without damaging the threads in hole?

I decided to quit for the night and think about it before doing something stupid. Anyone have any other ideas besides the engine mount bolt trick? I need to go buy some 1/4" bolts as I don't have any long ones on hand.
 

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#47 ·
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I suspect I need to use John's smaller engine mount bolt trick to allow the engine to swing side ways a 1/4" or so. John, the left bolt and nut are easy to get to, but I can't see a nut on the right side. It appears to be a blind hole. If this is a blind hole, how do you install a smaller bolt without damaging the threads in hole?

I decided to quit for the night and think about it before doing something stupid. Anyone have any other ideas besides the engine mount bolt trick? I need to go buy some 1/4" bolts as I don't have any long ones on hand.
The RiGHT FRONT engine bolt threads directly into an engine-block extension so there is no NUT (like on left side). So on RIGHT, you need a bolt same length PLUS about 1/2 inch longer to put a NUT. The RIGHT engine-block hole is thru the metal, so passing an 1/4 bolt into an M10 threaded hole will not damage or rub anywhere.

By the way, I forgot to take exact measurements of these bolts last time I was there, BUT MAX-BMW parts fiche says "M10 x 70" for left side (about 3 inches) and "M10 x 90" for Right (about 3.6 inch). I think you better double-check on yours before you go shopping for these 1/4 diameter bolts.
 
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#46 ·
I didn't use the smaller bolts but I did loosen them. I was using a much smaller scissors jack made for a car without a large platform so I may have had more shake room.

Maybe you could find something to place under the back center of the transmission and lower the jack till it becomes slightly loose and then wiggle it to get it past the frame. Just a thought.
 
#48 ·
I tried that somewhat, but even with the engine mount bolts loosened a couple turns, there wasn't much sideways play. I didn't try a tire iron on it, but pushing on it didn't budge it and prying with a fairly large screwdriver didn't do much either. The engine mounts seem pretty tight and loosening the bolts seems to only facilitate rotation and not lateral motion.

I may need more force, but I decided to stop and think and research first. My experience has been that a little thought is often better than a lot of force.
:smile:
 
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#55 ·
Yes, probably worried about nothing, but threads in aluminum are not very robust
The threads in mine failed around he third time it was apart. I put a heli coil in to repair. I had to get a long coil ..I think was X 2.5 or X3 ??
 
#56 ·
I replaced the front engine mount bolts with 1/4" bolts and that did not help, at least not with my current jack and support setup. If the picture attaches OK, you can see that the right side of the transmission is contacting the frame hard while the transmission mount is still alongside the frame mount. The transmission needs to drop another 1/2" or so in order to clear the upper mount and move left, but it can;t drop because it hits the frame hard, hard enough to support the full engine weight. I even tried lubing the frame hoping that might let things slip past, but no joy.

I tried blocking the right side of the frame 1.5" higher than the left to see of that would rotate it enough to clear, but that seemed ineffective.

I am trying to decide now if it is better to try to rotate the engine counterclockwise (viewed from the rear looking forward) to try to get the top mount below the frame before lowering so that the engine can move left to clear at the right side. Or is it better to rotate the engine clockwise and try to gain enough clearance at the lower right side so that the engine can be lowered before the top mount has completely cleared the upper frame?

What sayest those of you who have encountered this before?

I will have to try to get a jack on the left side of the engine in order to rotate it while the scissor platform jack is still helping support the weight. May get a little tricky.

I am also trying to decide if I should jack towards the rear of the engine to keep the balance point such that the front remains low or should I jack more towards the front so that the rear drops first. Thoughts?
 

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#57 ·
Hopefully the other John (JZEILER) who has done many more of these will chime in to add to my ideas below.

Of course at the factory they can have the engine + trans as an assy and deposit (lower) the frame a bit sideway as you describe. For them, the whole process is much easier to do when you start with a bare frame over the engine.

FOR US: My experience has been that although the top of trans mount has little wiggle room (until lower 1/2 inch and cleared), the lower right side frame hitting the transmission has wiggle room because the lower Frame Cross-tube is removed. Hence the 2 lower frame section can bend a bit (toward outside). On mine, I installed a thick old leather glove between frame and transmission (to protect from scratching) and using a bit of force it came down.
 
#58 ·
I don't remember having too much trouble with it but I think I did as Sailor did and just used a pry bar with a rag protecting the exposed surfaces.

I also was supporting the engine at the front under the oil filter cover as it looks like you are in that area also.
 
#59 ·
Well, the planets finally aligned. Sometimes you just need to take a break, and make a post to the forum and all then goes well! :smile:

I decided the best initial course was to rotate the engine clockwise. So, I lowered the engine until just before the transmission bound up against the frame on the lower right side. I was then trying to decide how to fit my large floor jack onto the lift and use it to pick up under the cylinder head.

Since that looked like it might be a tough undertaking, I decided on a whim to just lift up on the cylinder head with my hands. The engine must have been nearly balanced with only a slight bias to the head (left) side. I don't think I applied even 20 lbs of force when I felt the rear drop down slightly. I went back and checked and the transmission was now free of the frame at the lower right and only had to drop 3/8" or so to clear at the top mount. I lowered the platform jack and checked a few more times for any wires or binding, and finding none, lowered another inch until it looked like things would clear.

I removed the remaining 6 transmission bolts (one came out when I removed the reverse assist bracket) and placed a 6"x6" block under the center-stand bosses so the transmission could not drop too far when it came free, since I was working alone. I tapped the side with a polymer mallet and saw a slight gap open. I tapped the other side and it opened as well. A few more taps and the transmission slide off easily and settled onto the block. The only snag is it needs to tilt to clear the starter and I could not pick up the transmission and remove the block at the same time! Luckily the wife arrived shortly thereafter and we got the tranny out.

The clutch came apart easily, except I need to make the tool to remove the big nut. That will happen tomorrow. Since this post is getting long, I will make another to show what came out, other than 3-4 drops of gear oil.
 
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#60 · (Edited)
The clutch parts look much better than I expected. They look dry to the eye, but I am pretty sure the inner half or so of the friction material is contaminated with gear oil. It may be impossible to see in the pictures, but the inner half or so of the disk has a shiny appearance to it and feels smoother to the touch. I see no signs of undue heat, which surprised me given the number of times the clutch has slipped during the last couple of years, particularly on my trip to Newfoundland two years ago.

The clutch cover and pressure plate are in surprisingly good shape. The original machining marks are clearly visible on the inner half of the wear surface which further suggests oil on the disk in that area thus reducing wear. I see no bluing other than in a couple of small spots.

I measured the disk thickness in three places spaced roughly 120 degrees apart and got 0.235". 0.235" and 0.240" which, in metric are, 5.969 mm, 5.969 mm and 6.096 mm, respectively. This is well above the Clymer specified wear limit of 4.6 mm and seems like very little wear for 54,000 miles. I don't see a spec for the disk thickness when new, but I am pretty sure I have seen it posted here before. I need to go find that out of curiosity. However, I won't use this disk again as it is clearly slipping due to loss of "mu" and not from being worn out.

I think the cover and pressure plate could be used as is other than a good cleaning, but I suspect some uneven wear from the ID to the OD so I plan to send the parts to Southland clutch for inspection and surfacing if needed. I may have them replace the disk friction material also as, I believe, that a few forum members have used them with success in the past. I am debating about replacing the clutch spring. I can't imagine it needs replacing, but given the work involved to get here, it is probably good insurance.

I can't be sure until I get the bar made to hold the clutch housing, but in looking through the big holes as I rotated the housing, the engine case looks very clean and dry with no obvious sign of oil leakage from o-ring or main seal.
 

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#61 ·
Interesting on the thickness. 6 mm is close to new ( at least one I have here is 6.44 mm). Mine was about 4.9 mm and slightly damp from oil. Curious as to your normal launch RPM. i.e. max RPM you normally hit before you fully engage the clutch when starting out. That one does not even seem worn but it is very glassy.
 
#62 ·
I agree with John Zeller. It looks very glassy but the thickness is very close to new.

I do see streaking from the splines from either oil or spline lube but I see that on most all clutches being taken apart for slipping.

I also see what appears to be a delineation of wear inside to out as if this plate was put in with already worn plates and never really bedded in with the pre-existing worn plates so is this the first clutch job?

I know you mentioned gear lube in the slave cavity. Was the pushrod wet all the way down when you pulled it out?


I would be cautious of resurfacing the existing plates. Unless you remove as much from the mating surfaces where the bolts go in, you may not get enough pressure to keep the clutch from slipping. Just thinking out loud on that. I don't have the assembly in front of me to check if resurfacing would need to include those surfaces to maintain the proper spacing for full pressure.
 
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