Slipping Clutch - Clutch Slave Cylinder

[lhendrick]

Well, here's another data point on the slipping clutch/slave cylinder issue:

Bike: New 05 LT, 9,000 miles

While driving down the West Side Highway I was unable to shift gears. It felt like the clutch wasn't disengaging. I couldn't select neutral so the next stop light looked to be a bit of a problem. By pumping the clutch lever I was finally able to get the bike into neutral, and eventually back to my garage, where examination of the clutch fluid reservoir showed a low level. I topped up the fluid and bled the clutch line (with a speed bleeder) - not a fun job, but OK once you remove the tupperware, and find the bleed point.

Shortly after this occured, last Fall, I moved out of NYC. Over the Winter, I read on this board how clutch slave cylinder failure can leak clutch fluid on the clutch, causing it to slip. Sure enough, this Spring as I took the bike out for some post-Farkle installation testing, I noticed that there was slipage under heavy throttle, with the engine revving and the bike not accellerating. It got worse over a few rides, and I read here that it was likely to let go altogether, potentially leaving me stranded. I was able to use the bike if I took it really easy on the throttle, but highway on-ramps were a problem as I tried to accellerate to cruising speed.

I made an appointment at my selling dealer (BMW of Manhattan) since I anticpated a major warranty repair. In the past I have not been to kind in my words for their Service department, as they underwhelmed me with their performance. This past Monday I dropped the bike off, described the problem and left. Today at 4:00PM I received a call to tell me that they had just completed the repair. They told me that the transmission shaft seal had leaked transmission lube onto the clutch slave cylinder, and that the transmission lube ate a seal on the slave cylinder, causing the slave cylinder to leak clutch fluid onto the clutch. They replaced the transmission seal, clutch slave cylinder, clutch and clutch housing.There were more than 12 hours labor involved. They do not drill weep holes to prevent fluid contamination, and recoiled in horror at my suggestion that they do so. I guess they don't read this forum.

Cost to me: $0.00
Total down time: One Week
Satisfaction with dealer service: A+
Concern with bike design/reliabilty (1=low, 10=high): 5 Since I was not stranded, it was repairable, but a. I hoped this issue had been resolved by the factory, b. If this happens again and I'm out of warranty the cost will be very high, so I may have to consider spending $700-1,000 on and extended warranty.
Learning: The clutch slave cylinder leaked, but it failed because the transmission shaft seal leaked.
Question: If I realized what was happening when I experienced the original baulky clutch is there anything I could have done to prevent the total loss of the clutch that I experienced?

[mneblett]

Question: If I realized what was happening when I experienced the original baulky clutch is there anything I could have done to prevent the total loss of the clutch that I experienced?Nope -- by the time you noticed it wouldn't disengage, the slave cylinder seal was already destroyed by the tranny seal leak (as evidenced by the fluid lost from the clutch reservoir).

[timderr]

wow mine did exactly the same thing and i mean eaxctly
my dealer picked it up yesterday and i called today and they said it would be a week to get parts for it...please keep me posted
mine went at 9000 miles exactly....i bought it and put 500 miles on it and wham it happened just like you said....
let me know how your bike is doing im concerned that i should have stayed with my zrx 1100 kawasaki...

[lhendrick]

wow mine did exactly the same thing and i mean eaxctly
my dealer picked it up yesterday and i called today and they said it would be a week to get parts for it...please keep me posted
mine went at 9000 miles exactly....i bought it and put 500 miles on it and wham it happened just like you said....
let me know how your bike is doing im concerned that i should have stayed with my zrx 1100 kawasaki...


No... I don't happen to feal that way at all. I haven't had a lick of trouble with the bike since this well documented problem. If it happens again I'll just drive it through the front window of the service department...

[havnablast]

My 05 clutch just did the same thing to me this week while touring down south. It was 1500 miles after I spent $1000 for tires and 24k maint. I was angery but the good news is I got home with a little ateration in route. Spent some great time with my son in the Marines and got some great riding in.
It's a warrenty issue and I'm dropping the bike off Wed. It's nice to hear it will only be gone a week. The service guy already told me he'd drill a weep hole for me. I just hope this isn't an issue I have to deal with every 25k.

[cccpastorjack]

The above thread mentions that the Slave Cylinder Seal was ruined by transmission oil leaking from the input shaft seal. Honestly, can anyone with knowledge tell me how gear oil can ruin that seal??? I don't believe it would do so. Seems far fetched to me, but maybe I don't understand. :confused:

[SmokinJoe]

The above thread mentions that the Slave Cylinder Seal was ruined by transmission oil leaking from the input shaft seal. Honestly, can anyone with knowledge tell me how gear oil can ruin that seal??? I don't believe it would do so. Seems far fetched to me, but maybe I don't understand. :confused:
Jack, Gear or engine oil not compatible with Dot 4 or any brake fluid and if clutch slave or brake components are exposed to gear or motor oil they can fail. I have experienced complete brake system failure, collapsed hoses, abs, calipers, and the works when we discovered motor oil was put into the client’s master cylinder.

[rattler50]

I just can't swallow that explanation............ :confused:

[cccpastorjack]

Jack, Gear or engine oil not compatible with Dot 4 or any brake fluid and if clutch slave or brake components are exposed to gear or motor oil they can fail. I have experienced complete brake system failure, collapsed hoses, abs, calipers, and the works when we discovered motor oil was put into the client’s master cylinder.

OK...I hear what you are saying and agree that if motor oil was put INTO the system it could destroy things. It is much thicker and compresses much more than DOT 4. Could mess up a lot of things. However, I am not sure that gear oil, under NO pressure, not being IN the system would ruin the seal. Is there something in the gear oil's composition that would deteriorate the seal itself? I believe -- unless I am wrong -- that the seals in the input shaft and the Slave Cylinder seal are made of the same material. :confused:

[Dman]

OK...I hear what you are saying and agree that if motor oil was put INTO the system it could destroy things. It is much thicker and compresses much more than DOT 4. Could mess up a lot of things. However, I am not sure that gear oil, under NO pressure, not being IN the system would ruin the seal. Is there something in the gear oil's composition that would deteriorate the seal itself? I believe -- unless I am wrong -- that the seals in the input shaft and the Slave Cylinder seal are made of the same material. :confused:

Jack,
The composition of the seals are totally different. If mineral oil is added to a system that is supposed to use glycol based fluids, the "rubber" part will swell and get "fatty" kind of like cured silicone rubber. It also becomes very soft and you can roll it between your fingers and it will shed little chunks. Someone on this board made mention in some similar language of the above and I would bet that is the failure he saw.

In a previous life I had a fleet of heavy equipment in my charge that I maintained. Some machinery used mineral oil in the brake system and some used DOT 3 / 4. Putting mineral oil in a DOT 3 / 4 system would guarantee brake failure during that shift. The master cylinder cups would deteriorate to a mushy pile of black fuzz. Occasionally an operator would put brake fluid in a mineral oil system and the result was the same. Guaranteed failure.

Now back to the LT. Something else to ponder: The slave cylinder piston carries the clutch release rod bearing. The bearing is not sealed (and has very little grease in it from the factory.) I believe that putting more grease in it could result in the same failure. If over lubricated it would leak out and be in direct contact with the cylinder bore. Catch 22 huh.

[cccpastorjack]

Now that's what I was looking for as an explanation. Excellent job! I love the wisdom of this forum. Personally, I would venture to say that Input Shaft Seals are to blame for a LOT of ruined clutches. Not all, but a lot! Thanks again!

[alindsay]

If you want to see how different they are, dribble a little motor/gear oil and a little brake fluid on your paint. :eek:

[Fred]

Considering all of the above what year did bmw switch to mineral oil in the clutch line 2 did they change the cups in the hand reserve 3 did they change the slave seal material as well. 4 if yes to the above then after the changeover was made the problems should all be solved. Now the cluutch and trans fluid are both mineral oil. So whats up with that????
Try flushing the system and refill with milk. It is compatiable with all the seals won't make the clutch slip then if it leaks we can cry over spilled milk.
I know this sounds crazy but think about it..

[Dman]

Considering all of the above what year did bmw switch to mineral oil in the clutch line

They never did.

The discussion centers around the fact that the slave cylinder is in close proximity to mineral oil if the transmission input shaft rear seal develops a leak. This in turn contaminates the bore of the slave cylinder and results in a failure of the slave cylinder seal.

Hope this Helps.

[Dman]

Personally, I would venture to say that Input Shaft Seals are to blame for a LOT of ruined clutches. Not all, but a lot!

Pastor Jack,

I'll take that bet and raise you +1 :D

Regardless of failure initiation, (oil contamination or slave seal failure for whatever reason) the drilling of the drain hole is still valid. (Thank You Mr. Shealy!!!!!!!!!)

[Markpac]

Similar story, mine is 05 1200lt. End of last year in August while highway riding with odometer reading about 17500 miles the clutch would not engage. Had to use engine to downshift getting off highway and to complete the trip to work. Dealer changed some gaskets and filled fluid. Worked well and moved closer to work shortly after. Left me with a 10 minute commute for about maybe another 500-1000 miles until this spring slipping clutch. Dealer too busy to work on for first 3 weeks now tell me the clutch was surprisingly not wet as they expected but dry and worn. Stating some wear out sooner than 18,000 some much later depending on riding style and since clutch is only warranteed for 12 months I can expect a bill nearing $1600 but owner says he will give me a deal in labor since he is doing labor himself. Customer service rep agrees with dealer but I get feeling rep is not technically knowledgeable. My question is---the "external" leak in august they covered by warrantee. Is there a way or likelihood that having had a leak from the system would have made the clutch wear faster as a result of lower pressure in the clutch system and the bike trying to compensate rather than being totally related to my driving habits?? I have broad shoulders and can accept if it is my driving and will foot the bill. But feel trapped between what dealer tells me and essentially no technologically minded customer service rep on my side. Any feedback appreciated. May also email me at Markpac@comcast.net.

Thanks

Mark
"05" K1200LT Blue
(The Krebscycle)

[mtrevelino]

Similar story, mine is 05 1200lt. End of last year in August while highway riding with odometer reading about 17500 miles the clutch would not engage. Had to use engine to downshift getting off highway and to complete the trip to work. Dealer changed some gaskets and filled fluid. Dealer too busy to work on for first 3 weeks now tell me the clutch was surprisingly not wet as they expected but dry and worn. Stating some wear out sooner than 18,000 some much later....... My question is---the "external" leak in august they covered by warrantee. Is there a way or likelihood that having had a leak from the system would have made the clutch wear faster as a result of lower pressure in the clutch system and the bike trying to compensate rather than being totally related to my driving habits??
I say that it is definitely related to what has happened last August. Your dealer is giving you a lot of BS. The clutch should go 180,000 miles before needing replacement.

[cccpastorjack]

I say that it is definitely related to what has happened last August. Your dealer is giving you a lot of BS. The clutch should go 180,000 miles before needing replacement.

At the very least, I would demand to see the old clutch plate. The two I have seen that were contaminated were very wet to the touch. A sticky, oily residue instead of "clutch dust" so to speak. It should be dry as a bone or there was fluid to blame. I also would check the disc myself for min. thickness. Just ask the mechanic to measure and show you how thick it is.

[McRuss]

I just turned 36,000 on my '05, narry a problem with the clutch. Now the tranny output shaft seal....that's another thing altogether. Bike is in the shop now for the THIRD time to replace that seal.

[sheinzer]

Mine is in the shop BMW dealer for 27 days and only the parts are ordered. Hmmmm I must have ticked them off without knowing it. Unable to tell me when they will start the repairs.

I am pleased others here have the repair completed without issue.

[Nitrodoc]

lt clutch slippage
HI Guys,

Similar story here. I am no mechanic but the exact same clutch failure occurred to me at only 18001 miles. Also out of warranty. In the middle of 7000 mile 3week run I notice oil under the stand, I drive 180 miles out of my way to take it Ironhorse in Tuscon. The dealer charges 1780 smackaroos and notes that my problems were multifold. His narration included his observation of leaking seals etc and that my rear end was leaking also from improperly tightened plugs during my 12000 scheduled maintenence. Parts amount to 300 the rest labor. The service manager suggests calling bmwoa for some mercy because in his opinion this should n0t be happening at this low milage perhaps after 60k.

The district bmwoa gives no consideration other than I can get 500 off a new bike if purchased within 30 days.


The clutch is slipping again and now I am home in Florida.

Bmw will warranty the parts but... this blows. Dont think that I should have to eat the labor again for a problem that BMW knows should be a recall.This problem is mentioned frequently in this post does anyone have a suggestion.
Edit/Delete Message

[lhendrick]

Well, hearing about this makes me want to rethink keeping my 05LT much longer (has 23K miles). I can afford the bike payments, but when I factor in the maintenance costs and keep a fund for possible gigantic repairs like this and the ABS brakes I am reminded of how I was forced out of the private aviation game by having to build a fund for engine rebuilding while paying ongoing costs of operation and use. I haven't done a complete analysis, but out of warranty repairs seem likely enough that I might just get a new bike sooner rather than later.

[dmatson]

It sure seems like the 05's have had a problem with leaks which cause other problems. My 05' has had the tranny output seal replaced at 17K but the clutch feels fine and when the seal was replaced I had the mechanic look at the slave and it was dry as a bone. I now have 24k on the bike and in Sept I am going on a big trip. I guess I have to make a decision, either buy a new bike or get a new set of tires for the trip. Maybe i'll just take the 950.

[jiminabqnm]

i think it is the "ocean blue" models. The other colors are jealous and put crap slave cyn's in them. You were lucky, my ocean blue was dissected at 5000 miles.