Participantes for the Slave Cylinder S.Party

[strsout]

Start planning for the Service Part to do the slave cylinder fix by David Shealey.
I would like to know how many of us are willing to do it.

The date is Sunday, April 30, and the place is, for now, Elton's garage. Maybe we will be able to find a bigger place, if we have more than 4 bikes doing the service (not counting the ones who just want to see it).

So, if you are coming, I would like to know the name and if you are doing the service or just watching it.

We still need someone to videotape the procedure. If nobody can do it I will try, but I'm sure there are people with more skills here who could do it better.


Those are the parts need, courtesy by Ken 'meese'
Mandatory Parts:
Output (Slave) Cylinder 21 52 2 333 433 $100.00
Gasket Ring (4 needed) 21 52 2 332 604 $1.00 each
Gasket 23 12 2 352 156 $5.00
Felt Ring 23 21 1 230 440 $2.70

Optional Parts:
Push Rod 21 52 7 659 112 $36.00

[mjordans2000]

Elton, I'll be there to help wrench. I'll bring tools, including the special 30mm socket.
Michael

[dmatson]

I will be there to help also. Michael bring that paint marker for the drive shafts, see I remembered something!

[mjordans2000]

Good idea Doug, that was helpful.

[dshealey]

Looks like we are only doing one bike.

Elton:

I will leave San Diego around 7:30, that should put me at your place (need address) around 9:00-9:30 A.M.

My wife will be with me, as she wants to make a little shopping trip to her favorite clothing store in the Ontario Mills outlet park. So, I am glad to help out, but this trip is gonna cost me! :D :D

[Buck]

I will be there. I'd like to do mine, also. I already have the parts.

[dshealey]

I will be there. I'd like to do mine, also. I already have the parts.

Great Buck! See you there.

[strsout]

David,
What parts of the plastic should I have off the bike to expedited the service?

Thank you

[strsout]

I just sent PM to all participants (the ALL sounds like we have a lot :) :) )
with direction to my house.

I'm planning to open the garage at 8:00AM.
David already wrote that he will be here around 9:00/9:30, but I understand that we need to remove some plastic from the bikes, so fell free to came earlier and start removing the plastic on yours if you will.

Looks like the idea to shoot a video of the service is on hold... Not sure if it will be one, but I will have my camera and tapes ready.

[dshealey]

I just sent PM to all participants (the ALL sounds like we have a lot :) :) )
with direction to my house.

I'm planning to open the garage at 8:00AM.
David already wrote that he will be here around 9:00/9:30, but I understand that we need to remove some plastic from the bikes, so fell free to came earlier and start removing the plastic on yours if you will.

Looks like the idea to shoot a video of the service is on hold... Not sure if it will be one, but I will have my camera and tapes ready.

If we are doing just slave cylinder work, the only plastic that has to be removed is the small fairing piece on the right side below the passenger seat. It is a little easier to remove that if the right main fairing is off, but I have removed these 4 times without removing any other pieces. It is a little difficult to get the top front screw out, but by loosening the top two screws in the main fairing it can be pulled out far enough to get the screw in the "battery cover" out. Hint: You can use a T20 torx screwdriver instead of T25 to allow an angle on it.

[strsout]

Maybe I miss it on those many posts but do I need break fluid for this service?
I guess yes, but could not find any comment on it.
DOT 4 for a 2002 right?

Thank you

[dshealey]

Maybe I miss it on those many posts but do I need break fluid for this service?
I guess yes, but could not find any comment on it.
DOT 4 for a 2002 right?

Thank youYes, DOT 4. Small can will do.

[Buck]

I went out and bought a couple of cans - one regular(dino?) and the other synthetic. Synthetic has a higher minimum boiling point. The other thing I noticed is that there was no "Dot 4" fluid. Only "Dot 3 & Dot 4". I guess it doesn't make any difference? I also guess that the higher minimum boiling point won't make much difference with a clutch, but that brakes would benefit. It also says that the synthetic and regular are compatible.

[dshealey]

I went out and bought a couple of cans - one regular(dino?) and the other synthetic. Synthetic has a higher minimum boiling point. The other thing I noticed is that there was no "Dot 4" fluid. Only "Dot 3 & Dot 4". I guess it doesn't make any difference? I also guess that the higher minimum boiling point won't make much difference with a clutch, but that brakes would benefit. It also says that the synthetic and regular are compatible.

Yes, there are many brake fluids that are now synthetic instead of organic, and are compatable. The DOT 4 fluids also meet DOT 3 specs (which are lower), so they put both on the containers.

DOT 5, which is Silicone, is NOT compatible with DOT 3/4 though, that cannot be used without a COMPLETE flush of every component in the system, not really feasable.

[Buck]

I always imagined that Dot 5 fluids used entirely different chemicals, thus requiring the seals to be made of different compositions of rubber/plastic/teflon, etc.

[dshealey]

I always imagined that Dot 5 fluids used entirely different chemicals, thus requiring the seals to be made of different compositions of rubber/plastic/teflon, etc.

The seals etc. in brake systems are OK for silicone also, but the fluids themselves are incompatible. I have read articles about converting autos to silicone, and most people doing it will disassemble all the calipers and master cylinder, put in new seals, flush the lines with alcohol, blow them out dry, then flush with silicone fluid, then blow them out again. ABS systems are more difficult even than that. Needless to say, only people needing very high performance brake systems (racing, etc.) will go to that length.

Harley used DOT 5 from the factory in most if not all their bikes. Why? Who knows. Silicone is used for high temp brake systems. It's boiling point is much higher, and it is not hygroscopic, so it will not adsorb moisture from the air. Moisture is still a problem though, because it will still get into the system (slower), but instead of being adsorbed into the fluid it will settle to the lowest points and "pool" there. Periodically flushing a normal brake system to purge all the old fluid will remove nearly all moisture, flushing Silicone systems may leave the pooled water sitting in the low points, so corrosion problems can actually be worse in DOT 5 systems.

[strsout]

Looks like we will have 2 bikes for this Sunday, so maybe I don't need to move the Seadoo :)

See you guys Sunday :)

[dshealey]

Looks like we will have 2 bikes for this Sunday, so maybe I don't need to move the Seadoo :)

See you guys Sunday :)

Still planning to leave San Diego by 7:30. I would leave earlier, but we have a new yard work person coming at 7:00, and we have to show him what we want done while we are gone. Hope he is not late!

Probably be there 9:15-9:30, depending on traffic.

[dmatson]

Elton I was planning on coming to lend a hand but my daughter came home today from college with car problems so thats what I am doing tomorrow. Good luck, it was fun to help Michael on his slave repair.
Doug Matson

[strsout]

THANK YOU!!!
we had such a wonderful event here today.
I would like to thank you all of you who came and a special one to David and Michael. The huge source of knowledge from those two fine MC riders are amazing.
Buck and I had our bikes done in a record time and all service went pretty well.
(well... that was one screw who was pretty happy at his place... but Buck manage to take it out :) )

Nice party.

[meese]

Can you elaborate on the stuck screw? We had a similar issue with Coni's bike and the inner rear drive pivot pin.

[dshealey]

Can you elaborate on the stuck screw? We had a similar issue with Coni's bike and the inner rear drive pivot pin.

All of Bucks swing arm bolts/nuts were TIGHT! Impact wrench would not even budge them. One of the people who came to watch went to Home Depot and got a 4 foot lenth of 1" pipe to use on my 1/2" breaker bar. The right outer was the worst, we thought we were going to break the breaker bar, but with a couple people holding the bike, and Buck pulling HARD on the pipe, it finally popped loose with a BANG! (We thought sure the breaker broke, but everything still looked OK, and Lo and Behold the nut was LOOSE! The inner studs were also WAY tighter than they should have been. Took the pipe on them also, both sides. The final drive pivots were not as bad, but they were tighter than called for also. That was the only big issue today. For a little while it looked like we may have had to put Buck's bike back together so he could get home, but we finally gorilla'd that one nut off. Scary.

Buck said the swing arm had been off once before by the dealer. We think some gorilla used a BIG impact hammer on them!

Elton's were quite easy, what one would expect.

All in all, the day went very well. Two bikes done from about 9:30 until roughly 2:00, with a lunch break. Some initial fairing removal was already done when I got there at 9:15.

Goes very well when you have two people who know what to do, and two more very able and willing wrench drivers. :)

We were able to keep both bikes pretty much together in process, except for the delay on Buck's until we got the big pipe. :D

We are now thinking that a 4 foot pipe and good breaker bar would be good to have on hand for any future swing arm parties, just in case!

[strsout]

Can you elaborate on the stuck screw? We had a similar issue with Coni's bike and the inner rear drive pivot pin.


That was the one Ken.
We had to go out and buy a long bar so we could loose it.
The last person who torque it must was reading Newton's and using Foot. Was super tight.

[mjordans2000]

And once again we found leaking slaves! Elton's was seriously wet, I'd say in another few thousand miles (if that) he would have been out a very expensive clutch job. Anyone who still wants do change their slave cylinder at another date PM me. I'm more than happy to hold another service party or have you over for a private session. Your's could be as bad or worse than Elton's, don't risk it if you're any were near 60K. We've seen several now starting to leak in the low 50's.

For those who couldn't make it, you missed a fun and productive day. Thanks to all who showed up and a big thanks to Dave for his generous help and guidance.

[vtwinwilly]

Just prying a bit here...

At on time there was talk of getting a video of this process. Did that happen?

[meese]

This is kind of a long explanation, but I figured you guys would appreciate the details.

When we did Ernie's bike, we needed a breaker pipe as well, as his air gun wouldn't break things loose. We also needed an impact socket, after I broke a standard socket, oops. IIRC, 4 feet sounds about right, and there was a loud, scary pop noise.

On Coni's bike we managed to break everything loose with a standard 1/2" breaker bar, something under 2 feet long. But the rear drive inner pivot pin stayed stiff all the way out. When it did get removed, it had stripped the inner third of its threads, and about a third of the threads in the swingarm itself.

I told Coni at least she had a spare bike to ride, in case we had to wait several days for parts. She wasn't as amused as I thought she'd be. :)

We headed to South Sound BMW to get a new pivot pin, and the mechanics tried to clean up the damaged swingarm with a thread pick and by cutting slots in the old pivot pin to make a poor thread chaser. They get an A for effort, but managed to bugger up a few more threads in the process.

We then headed to Ride West BMW who actually had the proper M24 x 1.25 tap. The service manager dropped what he was doing, and spent 45 minutes on the swingarm until the tap ran cleanly through all three M24 holes (the fourth swingarm hole is larger). That left us with about half the threads in the damaged hole, which seemed strong enough considering there is also a large lock nut installed.

We tried to screw in the new pivot pin bought from South Sound, and it would only go in about one thread. Some of its threads looked damaged already, so we went upstairs and got another new pivot pin. Turns out that not only was the first pivot pin a bit shorter (no big deal), but it has a different thread pitch, even though it had the same part number on the invoice. I'm not sure if they had pulled the wrong part from the shelf, or were sent the wrong part from BMW.

After that, the drilling and swingarm installation went pretty easy. The swingarm has to go in at an angle to clear a threaded protrusion on the left side, which means the drive shaft has to go in at the same time as the swingarm.

I will emphasize the importance of snapping the drive shaft on fully in order to seat the front snap ring. There is enough play to cause major damage if this isn't done correctly. We used a block of wood and a mallet, and then pulled hard on the drive shaft with bare fingers to make sure it didn't move back at all, and also rotated it until we felt the tranny gears mesh.

It looked to me like Reno BMW (who replaced her tranny) used a ton of loctite on all the bolts. Tom at Ride West said he's seen that before, and they often need to heat the swingarm considerably to get the bolts to loosen up. Otherwise, they get stripped threads like we did. I will say that someone had marked her drive shaft with a bright yellow paint pen, so phasing the u-joints was pretty easy.

So just a couple more cautions for anyone attempting this job. And I'm buying an M24 x 1.25 tap for my tool kit, and probably a heat gun as well.

[mjordans2000]

No, not this time around. I do like the idea of video taping, perhaps we will make a formal effort at some point soon. This project typically involves two people working in tight quarters. Getting useable shots will take some effort. Our goal was to get both bikes up and running so they could be ridden home. We need to 'work' on a bike which can sit for a couple of days so we can concentrate on getting the needed shots much like Paul has done with his videos.

[mjordans2000]

Sounds like you had lot's of fun Ken. You make several good points. The heat gun I've got, the tap I will get. Given the high percentage of leaky slaves we've found we need to get this down to a science. It's not a hard thing to do but these 'gotchas' we're finding can be aggravating.

[dshealey]

--------------------, so we went upstairs and got another new pivot pin. Turns out that not only was the first pivot pin a bit shorter (no big deal), but it has a different thread pitch, even though it had the same part number on the invoice.
Now THAT is scary! I cannot even imagine how BMW can justify that snafu.After that, the drilling and swingarm installation went pretty easy. The swingarm has to go in at an angle to clear a threaded protrusion on the left side, which means the drive shaft has to go in at the same time as the swingarm. That is what we did on the two bikes also. A little difficult to get the splines started on the front of the drive shaft, but the only way it could be done withought removing the exhaust. Certainly worth the struggle to avoid all that extra work though. For some reason I did not remember us having to do that on your bike Ken, but we must have.I will emphasize the importance of snapping the drive shaft on fully in order to seat the front snap ring. There is enough play to cause major damage if this isn't done correctly. We used a block of wood and a mallet, and then pulled hard on the drive shaft with bare fingers to make sure it didn't move back at all, and also rotated it until we felt the tranny gears mesh. We pulled back on the swing arm and pushed the boot back far enough to be able to see the front end of the universal to be sure it was all the way forward.It looked to me like Reno BMW (who replaced her tranny) used a ton of loctite on all the bolts. Tom at Ride West said he's seen that before, and they often need to heat the swingarm considerably to get the bolts to loosen up. Otherwise, they get stripped threads like we did. I will say that someone had marked her drive shaft with a bright yellow paint pen, so phasing the u-joints was pretty easy. Fortunately, neither of the two bikes we did had any Loctite involved. I have worked on two that did, and it sure makes things far more difficult. No Loctite is supposed to be used on any of these parts, so any dealer "mechanic" who does it is not smart at all. Previously I had used paint or Magic Markers to phase the Universals, but on one this weekend we managed to wipe off the paint mark and had to remove the shaft and start over. Buck had a set of small files, so I filed a small groove on the end of the driveshaft, and paint marked one full spline on the rear universal. That worked well. Did that to both bikes. So just a couple more cautions for anyone attempting this job. And I'm buying an M24 x 1.25 tap for my tool kit, and probably a heat gun as well.May have to get a couple of those spread around the country for service parties like we now have for the cut away sockets. So now we have required: Cut away 30 MM socket, M24 X 1.25 tap, heat gun, and 4' pipe. :D

[Buck]

And let me go on record as saying that Elton was the perfect host, having coffee, cookies, OJ, soda and all sorts of edibles.

And then, in the middle of all the fun, his wife went out and fetched pizza. Elton must be treating her right...;) She even outdid that treat with ice cream for desert! :D

A good time was had by all. :bmw:

Thanks to everyone.

[strsout]

Not at this time, but I will be willing to do it on the next party for this service.
My bike was there, so I had to at least help Mike and David :) :)...
I will try to do it on the next time.

[strsout]

Buck,
that is the brazilian way to say Thank you for comming :) :)

You guys are always welcome :)

And let me go on record as saying that Elton was the perfect host, having coffee, cookies, OJ, soda and all sorts of edibles.

And then, in the middle of all the fun, his wife went out and fetched pizza. Elton must be treating her right...;) She even outdid that treat with ice cream for desert! :D

A good time was had by all. :bmw:

Thanks to everyone.

[black1200lt]

<BIG snip> No Loctite is supposed to be used on any of these parts, so any dealer "mechanic" who does it is not smart at all. :D
David,
You may be right, (you usually are!) I spent Sunday in due diligence at Ride West (they had a promotion going on) and of course we had a lot of comments on my swingarm. I asked if Loctite should or should not be used, they assured me that a little is called for and that the important thing is *heat* in removal of any bolt suspected of having it on that bolt,nut or screw. If nothing else, it will save the price of the M24 x 1.25 tap or worst case a new swingarm or God forbid waiting for BMW to locate a new one.:eek: Ken found that that is a place I don't like.:D

[dshealey]

David,
You may be right, (you usually are!) I spent Sunday in due diligence at Ride West (they had a promotion going on) and of course we had a lot of comments on my swingarm. I asked if Loctite should or should not be used, they assured me that a little is called for and that the important thing is *heat* in removal of any bolt suspected of having it on that bolt,nut or screw. If nothing else, it will save the price of the M24 x 1.25 tap or worst case a new swingarm or God forbid waiting for BMW to locate a new one.:eek: Ken found that that is a place I don't like.:D

None of the swing arm/final drive pivot components call for Loctite in the service manual. Every place Loctite is required is noted in the torque tables, and also in the detailed service instructions. And yes, heat is used when Loctite is suspected, but we could tell by visual inspection that there was no Loctite in the external pivot pins or locknuts. Unfortunately, even if Loctite is suspected on the forward internal pivot pins, what was tight on yours, it is a little difficult to heat the aluminum housing there, especially the left side. You could somehow heat the pins themselves, but typically one wants to heat the outside part, not the inside one, to take advantage of expansion to help loosen the joint.

If that dealer says Loctite is used on these parts, then I would not want to go there for work. I feel that any mechanic uninformed in one area is also deficient in others. Of course I do all my own work on cars and motorcycles mainly because I just DO NOT TRUST dealers! The few times in the very distant past when I did take cars to dealers I was always upset later when I found out how they had screwed up something in nearly every instance.

On Buck's bike, which was the absolute tightest I have yet seen, there was no Loctite on the parts. Just SEVERELY overtightened. Had to be a "loose nut" holding an impact wrench. :D

[mjordans2000]

For those who are now addicted to the Brazilian soda 'Guarana' (I believe that would be all of us) that Elton so graciously provided, it is available locally as well as several online sources. I found it at a small Brazilian market in Culver City. I suspect we could find other similar stores.

Supermercado Brasil-Brazilian
10826 Venice Blvd,
Culver City, Ca 90232
310-837-4291

Probably not the cheapest place to buy it (2.99 for a 2 liter bottle and 9.00 for a six pack of cans) but it's not too far for me. If any one finds a better souce let me know.

[dshealey]

For those who are now addicted to the Brazilian soda 'Guarana' (I believe that would be all of us) that Elton so graciously provided, it is available locally as well as several online sources. I found it at a small Brazilian market in Culver City. I suspect we could find other similar stores.

Supermercado Brasil-Brazilian
10826 Venice Blvd,
Culver City, Ca 90232
310-837-4291

Probably not the cheapest place to buy it (2.99 for a 2 liter bottle and 9.00 for a six pack of cans) but it's not too far for me. If any one finds a better souce let me know.

My wife located a place here in San Diego, but we have not gone there yet. Will let you know the results. We liked it too!

[strsout]

Thank you for the finding Mike.
The price is about right. Maybe few cents less or more, but that is what I normally pay for it.

[meese]

That sounds like a bargain. My first quote for an M24 x 1.25 tap is $110.80. But I suppose that's cheaper than a $488 swingarm.

[strsout]

That sounds like a bargain. My first quote for an M24 x 1.25 tap is $110.80. But I suppose that's cheaper than a $488 swingarm.

Ken!!!! are you OK?
We are talking about a soda drink :) :) :) :) :)

[meese]

But it was really good soda. :)

Sorry, I've been working around semiconductor plants for the past month. You wouldn't believe what they charge for parts. It makes BMW prices look cheap in comparison. We've got turbo pumps that are worth three times what an LT is, and if you don't handle them properly they tend to destroy themselves in short order.

I'm still gonna look around and see if I can find a better price on the tap. I'd like to have at least one available, if not more.

[bmwusmc]

Darn..Darn..Darn..Darn..Darn!!! Didn't see this post until today..Having had a slave cylinder failure just after having bought the 2005 LT new, I sure would have liked to have it transmission proofed..If you decide to do this again, I'll be a definite participant..I live in Vegas but I'll be there if ever it's done again..

[strsout]

Darn..Darn..Darn..Darn..Darn!!! Didn't see this post until today..Having had a slave cylinder failure just after having bought the 2005 LT new, I sure would have liked to have it transmission proofed..If you decide to do this again, I'll be a definite participant..I live in Vegas but I'll be there if ever it's done again..


Sorry to learn that Roy... :(

I'm not sure if we will have another one soon, but if you keep on eye here on this forum and we have one, you are very welcome..

PS: I will passing Vegas tomorrow, Thursday, around 6PM, going to Zion and from there to Moab. If you don't have plans for the weekend, there is one :)

[bmwusmc]

Thanks for reply, Elton..I'll keep an eye out for another of your get-togethers..I'll make plans to be there.
Sorry, I can't hook with you..sounds like a good plan to me..gotta standby to pick up wife when she returns from her trip..Ride safe and check your six always(Oh, and watch out for notorious Vegas red light runner-4 wheel type-as you pass through Vegas)

[mjordans2000]

Hi Roy,

It may well be a while before we have another official service party but that doesn't mean you have to wait. If you want to replace your slave cylinder and/or drill the weep hole sometime soon just give a shout. You're more than welcome to drop by for a private session,

Michael

[bmwusmc]

Hey, Michael, Thank you very much for the warm invite..I might do that as I have some friends in San Diego I keep threatning to visit..
Probably wont be till after July..Going to the Honda Hoot in June then on down to Florida to see my son..
I hope the slave cylinder holds out..I lost it when I was coming from Tampa last year just after I bought the bike there..Stranded in San Antonio for a couple of weeks..Had to replace the clutch assembly and troubleshoot a starting problem after they put it back together.
Still love the bike tho'..It sure rides great..Ride safe, Roy

[mjordans2000]

Happy to help out. Just give a shout when you're ready.