Goldwing Air Bag - Is this in the future?

[dandoble]

Honda has a video clip of the operation of a motorcycle air bag. They also had a Goldwing with a built in airbag expanded featured at the International Motorcycle show. The video displayed the dynamics of a head on crash in slow motion with a crash dummy. I posted my suggestion that it seemed like a good idea. The response was tepid suggesting that if it were such a good idea BMW engineers would have introduced it first. I would like to get other input on the concept from others on the site. It was stated that Honda's may dive more while breaking which forces the rider into the bike more. My concern is not the dive but the abrupt stop. Going head over heals out of control anywhere at 60+ mph suggests an airbag represents some level of cushion. The idea of flying over the handlebars into the unknown because you bike does not dive suggests at best is a long skid with a large upside potential of a even more painful and damaging stop. The video looked like it held the rider on the bike and wrapped around the rider a little for an off axis crash tolerance. The Honda web site says nothing about air bags on the Goldwing but the representative on the floor at the show said it was in production.

I would like to know what LT riders on this site think about motorcycle air bags as a safety device. I understand that if you were looking for a cocoon you would not be on a motorcycle. But very few have a wish to be in Don Authur's (sp?) position.

[mpillis]

A couple of months ago this same issue was discussed along with the video. I was very impressed with the idea and after seeing the video clip think it is a good idea. However, I draw the line at seat belts on motorcycles.

[JATownsend]

Airbags in cars have been in constant development since their introduction in 1972. It has been a very long gestation period indeed. They are finally working pretty well, with the advent of side curtain technology, knee bolsters, smart bags and such.

I guess my point is that the front airbag alone only works (well) in a limited number of situations. IE: Head on.

While any supplimental protection may be better than none, I have not read or heard enough about Honda's airbag design intent to make a reasonable descision. Too many questions remain:
*Is it best to 'Stay' with the bike under all conditions?
*Does the airbag hold you in so on a layover your legs are at risk?
*At what speed or G-Load stop is it activated?
*How is its performance with a Pillion aboard?
*What if you are wearing an open face helmet or have your shield up?

While I am not against technology, or passive safety, I can't help but wonder how much marketing research was done in the FEAR ZONE of older riders.

I have had two bad crashes. 25 years apart. I walked away from both because of protective gear. ATGATT!!

But, I have been saved many more times by active safety: Great brakes, good training, correct tires, chassis dynamics, sleep and water etc.

So, I think I'll wait and see how the next couple of years of real-life on-road testing goes, who is saved and who couldn't be saved no matter what. ;)

[messenger13]

I wouldn't buy a bike just because it came with an airbag. Nor would I NOT buy it if it came with one. It's a non-issue for me.

[hschisler]

Having been on a bike since only last August, I don't claim to have any insight based on experience. I like Averill's points, and I agree with Joe's comment, above. I am relying (hoping?) on my riding gear to protect me, along with training and -- eventually -- additional experience. Being a "conservative" rider helps also but there's always the unknown/unforeseen of the guy who turns in front of you, etc., etc. I read or look at every crash story, photo or video I can find in order to learn something that might help me down the road (pun intended). The one posted yesterday was informative.

If I had a bike with an airbag on it, I'd welcome that. I'll take any advantage I can get to survive a crash!! No doubt somewhere in the future we'll have a bike that instantly protects us in a big ball of foam, like the Sylvester Stallone's car in the movie "Demolition Man".

When the IMS was at Cleveland last month I saw a guy demonstrating an "air vest". Couldn't hear what he was saying, but apparently a dead-man switch connected the vest to the bike; you fall off, and a CO2 cartridge instantly inflates the vest -- much like some PFDs (life jackets) do. Picture is attached.

[messenger13]

When the IMS was at Cleveland last month I saw a guy demonstrating an "air vest".My friend looked at me and said, "I wonder what happens if the gear you're wearing over-top that vest doesn't have enough room for the expansion...broken ribs? Suffocation maybe?". We kinda laughed it off . . . but now I'm really starting to wonder.

[hschisler]

My friend looked at me and said, "I wonder what happens if the gear you're wearing over-top that vest doesn't have enough room for the expansion...broken ribs? Suffocation maybe?". We kinda laughed it off . . . but now I'm really starting to wonder.Joe, funny you should mention that. We thought the same thing! My assumption is that the vest must (should!) always be the outer-most piece of gear you wear.

I also felt sorry for the guy demoing the vest. While someone else was doing the sales pitch he looked kind of sheepish; I thought I heard him say "Holy cow, I look like a dork", but it was someone near me.

I know, I know: safety gear doesn't have to look cool. :cool:

[Tat_n_Telle]

Airbags in cars are designated as "supplemental restraint systems". The primary restraint system is, of course, your seat belt system.
I don't see how an airbag on a bike would possibly help in a high speed collision. Perhaps it would prevent some possible injury in the initial impact, but unless you're restrained on the bike it would be pretty much useless after that. I, for one, don't want to be attached or restrained on a bike that is now sliding along the road surface, using parts of my body to keep the paint and bodywork on the bike intact.
Cars are designed with crush zones which absorb a lot of the force of an impact. Sacrifice the parts of the car that don't have passengers, and keep the passengers restrained in the safety zone with airbags to help absorb the initial impact force. Without the necessary crush zones, I hardly think the amount of potential injury the airbag may prevent is pretty much a moot point.

[hschisler]

...I don't see how an airbag on a bike would possibly help in a high speed collision. Perhaps it would prevent some possible injury in the initial impact, but unless you're restrained on the bike it would be pretty much useless after that.The Honda video is instructive. I agree with Averill's point that the airbag's best use may be limited to a head-on collision. Check out the video (I assume it's on Honda web site).

[Tat_n_Telle]

From Honda's site:

"Inflating rapidly after the impact, the airbag can absorb some of the forward energy of the rider, reducing the velocity at which the rider may be thrown from the motorcycle and helping lessen the severity of injuries caused by the rider colliding with another vehicle or with the road."

I think there are too many variables involved in a motorcycle crash to state that the airbag would be helpful in anything but a dead straight, head on hit. Of course, that assumes the rider makes NO attempt at an evasive move, something which is pretty much instinctive to most riders.

I would rather spend the extra money involved on the cost of the airbag on the bike on good protective gear and improved rider training. Oh, and maybe educate some of the stupid cage drivers that don't pay attention, drive impaired, yak on the cellphones while watching the DVD on the dashboard player...

[donsobeck]

May I say that sliding down the road after a low side your protective gear will help with road rash. But it wouldn't help with the left turner that you hit and the sudden stop when hitting the car, only a airbag will help. That will be the only thing you have to slow you down a little before hitting the hard stuff.

DON

[JATownsend]

I think there are too many variables involved in a motorcycle crash to state that the airbag would be helpful in anything but a dead straight, head on hit. Of course, that assumes the rider makes NO attempt at an evasive move, something which is pretty much instinctive to most riders.
Your statement regarding 'instinctive' behavior in evasive situations could not be further from the reality of most accidents.

There is a phenomenon known as 'Target Fixation' (http://www.msgroup.org/TIP069.html) where it is virtually impossible to change your focus or where you are looking and the result is hitting that 'target' or object.

You are correct that training is very important - But, it takes a lot of training and experience to avoid target fixation.

[oknplm]

Airbags on motorcycle’s? What’s next mandated bumpers, a set of stabilizing wheels, automatic transmission, windshield wipers, seat belts and a protective shell? Starting to sound like a car. There are enough people out there that feel they know what is best for the motorcycling community, at the loss of our rights to ride where and how we want. At what point does all this manufacturer safety equipment become legislated law and another mandated profit item for the manufacturer.



Ultimately we are the losers because we lose the right to enjoy what motorcycling is all about. The simple pleasure of the open air, the hum of the engine, a full tank of gas, the freedom of the road and our right to make personal choices!



May we never find the end of the road!



Perry Ridgway


oknplm

[mongo]

[QUOTE=dandoble] It was stated that Honda's may dive more while breaking which forces the rider into the bike more. QUOTE]


The GL1800 has an anti-dive. With hard braking, no dive.

However, on the subject of the anti-dive, it has had problems with sticking on most Wings. This does not keep it from blocking the dive. When it sticks, it makes the ride alot rougher.

My concern is with a stuck anti-dive valve, hitting a pothole will have a definite force vector in the direction of the airbag sensors. I would worry
a stuck anti-dive and the correct pothole could lead to deployment.

My prediction, in 3 years assuming no problems with accidental deployments, the airbag question will resemble the ABS question presently seen on some posts for the GL1800.

[hschisler]

...There is a phenomenon known as 'Target Fixation' (http://www.msgroup.org/TIP069.html) where it is virtually impossible to change your focus or where you are looking and the result is hitting that 'target' or object.

You are correct that training is very important - But, it takes a lot of training and experience to avoid target fixation.Averill, I assume the concept of "target fixation" is the same thing that makes one ride a bike through a curve's apex, off the road because you are focusing on the road or the ditch, etc., not through the turn. Also assume it's the same thing that can make one drop a bike when you stop because you are looking down, not straight ahead/down the road.

Are they the same thing?
TIA.

[messenger13]

You are correct that training is very important - But, it takes a lot of training and experience to avoid target fixation.Averill...at least 50% of what is practice is ANTI-target fixation. I look where I want to ride....not what I want to miss (avoid). I practice this in EVERY curve, during every U-Turn, when approaching road-kill, potholes, manhole covers, etc., etc... I try to teach this skill to every newbie that has asked for my training.

[JATownsend]

Target Fixation is simply NOT looking where you want to go, but rather at something you SHOULD be avoiding.

I got real good at avoiding fixation after a couple of years of mountain bike racing. Where the penalties are often greater than on and nice big, comfy motorcycle. :eek: I have been hurt MORE on a bike than ever on a cycle.

Good 'ol Joe is right on when he sez that practice involves a lot of Target Fixation Elimination! Well, he almost said that... He said 50%.

But really, as simple as it sounds to look at the curve ahead and NOT the cliff, or when making a U-Turn to look over your shoulder where you want to go, or to simply miss that pot-hole by looking NEXT to it, it is not always so easy.

Throw in a bunch of speed, lots of other vehicles, a few mental distractions and you may end up with a problem.

There is a post running concurrent with this one, a woman and an accident.
http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5411

I believe she was a victim of 'Target Fixation'. Others think it was not avoidable. Think what you will.

[messenger13]

Good 'ol Joe is right on when he sez that practice involves a lot of Target Fixation Elimination! Well, he almost said that... He said 50%.The other 50%? Throttle control, effective braking, throttle control, counter steering, throttle control, body core steering, throttle control, and um . . . err . . . oh yea! Throttle control! :)

[JATownsend]

The other 50%? Throttle control, effective braking, throttle control, counter steering, throttle control, body core steering, throttle control, and um . . . err . . . oh yea! Throttle control! :)
Joe is that throttle control ... or personality control? ;) They are often too similar to differentiate. :D

[Steve_R]

BMW made a few of those called the C-1. Guess what, it didn't make it to this side of the pond and I don't think there are any running around in the der Fatherland either.

[mantan]

The GL1800 has an anti-dive. With hard braking, no dive.

That is not the dive that was being mentioned. The dive on the Goldwing that
is relevant here is the inherent nature of the popular telescopic front forks in
case of a frontal impact. They sort of cave in and the front-end of the bike "dives".

The telelever is supposed to be less succeptible to that.

[RideIt]

I will, like many others vote for protective gear. I can't help but wonder what in the heck would happen if the air bag would malfunction and go off while going down the road. It would also appear that it could limit your sight if in an accident.
Leon
05 Blue LT

[meese]

I think that by the time the airbag goes off, most people will have their eyes closed anyway. :) True that it's only effective in a frontal impact, but that has to be the vast majority of bike accidents out there regardless of what you hit. I doubt the airbag will hold you in place for more than a second or so, but it may just reduce your forward momentum enough to minimize any further injuries. After that you're on your own.

I won't be buying a new 'Wing just for the airbag (or for any other reason), but I'm also not just dismissing the whole concept outright.

[Tat_n_Telle]

Your statement regarding 'instinctive' behavior in evasive situations could not be further from the reality of most accidents.

There is a phenomenon known as 'Target Fixation' (http://www.msgroup.org/TIP069.html) where it is virtually impossible to change your focus or where you are looking and the result is hitting that 'target' or object.

You are correct that training is very important - But, it takes a lot of training and experience to avoid target fixation.

Exactly my point - I would rather see the dollars spent on rider education than on developing and outfitting bikes with airbags of questionable (IMHO) usefulness.
We have too many "casual riders" that have money to spend on a motorcycle that is too big and too powerful for their skill levels, and they either have no rider safety training at all, or don't ride enough to practice and hone the skills they acquired while taking the mandatory course needed to obtain their license.
I deal with people all the time that request the seat belt warning chime on their vehicles be turned off, because they "don't need to wear one because of the airbag". I can hear it now: "I don't need any training in accident avoidance on my bike, it has an airbag." Maybe the reminder that being involved in an accident on a bike is going to hurt, and not having the feeling of false security an airbag may provide, will help prevent a rider from getting into a situation he/she may have been able to avoid altogether. Granted, there are those situations where something totally unpredictable happens that turn bad, and maybe an airbag would help, but I think we all realize that there is more risk (and pleasure) in motorcycling than in driving a car.

[legacy]

No doubt the airbag will slow your forward progress by well over half, before your body starts going in another direction, where it will hit something.
But when it hits that something, it will be going a whole lot slower.

I'll bet that BMW has an airbag within five years. And it will take them at least that long for them to develope it, unless they pay Honda for their test results.

Honda tested theirs for 15 years. So no doubt it will work.

[LTERAC]

I was traveling 60 mph when a car infront of my wife's car locked up their tires for a dog in the road. She stopped short to avoid them and I hit the back of her car at 35mph. Granted I was wearing a half helmet on my Yamaha cruiser, but I went right up against the bike's windshield, breaking my nose and buying 25 stitches. I never imagined my only accident to date would have been rear-ending another car. I can imagine the possibility of someone pulling out in front of me and T-Boning the other car. In this instance, an airbag (and a full face helmet) would have been the perfect solution to my safety. I really wish BMW would consider the airbag on the LT and perhaps even the RT/GT. Just my two cents! - Tom

[birdman]

In this age of technology it won't be too long before an instantly inflatable safety suit is introduced. Something that is built into your riding gear that will "blow up" into a protective ball (if necessary) around the wearer at time of impact or falling off the bike. If all else fails, a rider protected by an inflated "ball" might have him bouncing off the car, armco or other bone crushing obsticle and walk away from the scene of the accident. Food for thought - not impossible. May look funny, but if it saves your life, I'm laughing all the way!

[JCabranes]

[QUOTE=dandoble] It was stated that Honda's may dive more while breaking which forces the rider into the bike more. QUOTE]


The GL1800 has an anti-dive. With hard braking, no dive.

However, on the subject of the anti-dive, it has had problems with sticking on most Wings. This does not keep it from blocking the dive. When it sticks, it makes the ride alot rougher.

My concern is with a stuck anti-dive valve, hitting a pothole will have a definite force vector in the direction of the airbag sensors. I would worry
a stuck anti-dive and the correct pothole could lead to deployment.

My prediction, in 3 years assuming no problems with accidental deployments, the airbag question will resemble the ABS question presently seen on some posts for the GL1800.

My thoughts exactly on accidental deployment. I figure that motorcycle airbag technology will go through similar growing pains as auto airbags did (I'm sure we all remember the stories of decapitations). I considered a GW with an airbag but had visions of hitting a pothole at speed and getting blown backwards off the bike by premature deployment. Talk about RIDUS INTERRUPTUS.

[meese]

One would think that the Honda guys did their research on accidental deployment. After all, they have all the car growing pains to learn from.

[meese]

There is a company that makes an inflatable jacket for bike riders. I think you plug in a tether, so if that gets suddenly unplugged the jacket inflates rapidly. Except I forget to unplug my intercom, so I'd stop to get gas and PUFF I'd suddenly be the center of attention. :eek:

[mwnahas]

There is a company that makes an inflatable jacket for bike riders. I think you plug in a tether, so if that gets suddenly unplugged the jacket inflates rapidly. Except I forget to unplug my intercom, so I'd stop to get gas and PUFF I'd suddenly be the center of attention. :eek:

Ya, that's all we need. Everybody pulling each other's tethers. LOL :D