Are the valves @ 12k ever NOT perfect?

[Bart]

Just now starting to poke me nose in here again since my son will soon be old enough to start taking trips with me which will mean the purchase of another LT. Right now I'm doing the R1150GS Adventure thing and believe it's probably the best bike ever built - but I know y'all don't want to hear that.

The last LT I owned had the 12k mile service done and the tech said the valves were perfect. Added a new rear tire, gave the dealer around $800, and totaled the bike the next day.

A few minutes ago I read in here where another guy said his valves were perfect at the 12k mile service, and I wonder how many others can claim the same. I'm wondering if there would not be any reason to move the valve adjustment interval to 2x what it's currently at? I wonder what the BMW engineers know that they may not be telling us?

[rglassma]

Needing a valve adjustment at 12K doesn't seem reasonable to me. I therefore chose not to. I could undertand it if you were real agressive with the bike and paid a visit to redline frequently. But, I do not and usually ship below 4K..

Sounds like a waste of money to me.

[dougholck]

My 02 needed adjustment at 12K.
Tech says one in ten do, lucky me.
Ok at 24K and now getting close to 36K check-up.
Bike runs great but needs throttle cable upgrade.

Doug

[swaanimal]

The manual requires a Valve clearance check, not adjustment. I've checked mine at the 24k and 36k (dealer did 12K) and still plenty of clearance. Doing your own 12k service is about $125-$150 and a day spent with your bike.

[TimVipond]

At 130,000 miles, mine has never needed nor had a valve adjustment. Just lucky I guess. I run that sucker hard too! I check em every 12,000 to 20,000 miles just to be sure. It has only seen synthetic oil since 6,000 miles. Don't know if that helps.

[mwnahas]

I had one out of spec at 12K :(

[mjac]

My first LT did not need any adjustment at 12K. It did require adjustments at 24K and 36K.
My second Lt did not require any adjustment at 12K and 48K. It did require adjustments at 24K and 36K.
My RS did not need any adjustment at 12K.

[ksailor]

The #2B intake .009 and #4B intake .004 clearance at 12K so I changed the buckets.

[eljeffe]

On my 2000 K1200LT, my valves did not need any adjustment until the 48K service.

On my 2002 K1200RS, 14 valves were out of spec at the 12K

[meese]

So basically, we should check them every 12K as suggested, and adjust any that are out of spec. Simple, really. :)

[dshealey]

Needing a valve adjustment at 12K doesn't seem reasonable to me. I therefore chose not to. I could undertand it if you were real agressive with the bike and paid a visit to redline frequently. But, I do not and usually ship below 4K..

Sounds like a waste of money to me.

A MUCH bigger waste will be if you have one tight and ignore it until the valve head/seat starts to burn. Once started, it is too late, it WILL require a valve job eventually, for LOTS of money! One head job is worth way more than all the valve checks you would have in 250,000 miles of normal 12K checks. Foolish economy at best.

[patrick2000]

Needing a valve adjustment at 12K doesn't seem reasonable to me. I therefore chose not to. I could undertand it if you were real agressive with the bike and paid a visit to redline frequently. But, I do not and usually ship below 4K..

Sounds like a waste of money to me.

At 36K my valves were in spec, but the camshafts were pitted and the surface of the cams looked discolored. This is unusual for the brick engine , but it does happen and fortunately, for me, they were replaced under warranty. Just another reason to spend a little time, or bit of money, about every 12K and have the valvae checked.

[Bart]

If there's a single reason that prevents me from going back to BMW for a touring bike, it will be the frequent major service requirements. 12k mile valve checks are simply too frequent. That was coming in at 4 months for me. I've had a GL1800 as well and it's just as good of a bike (however, I prefer the BMW), but for the most part it's a quick oil change and on your way. There's no reason BMW could not engineer this bike to be similar with a first check at around 30k miles. Someone mentioned a BMW tech told him 1 in 10 needed adjustment, yet BMW expects 10 of 10 to pay for the service. Maybe BMW would change the intervals if they were required to pick up the tab for every bike that did not need adjustment, or better yet include the first service with the purchace of the bike. Bottom line is 12k mile valve checks in the year 2006 on a bike engineered from a company like BMW, and a bike known to cover a lot of miles over a short amount of time, is too frequent. A Ducati race bike - fine; a BMW touring bike - shame shame.

[rglassma]

I love my LT. But, I agree with Bart. 12K valve checsk are ridiculous!!

It just seems to me that BMW designed the bike to maximize the out of pocket expense by the owner for maintenance. But, there isn't anything like it...

[patrick2000]

I love my LT. But, I agree with Bart. 12K valve checsk are ridiculous!!

It just seems to me that BMW designed the bike to maximize the out of pocket expense by the owner for maintenance. But, there isn't anything like it...

It is not that difficult a job even for the mechanically challenged. Checking the valves is a simple procedure. Adjusting them is a bit more complex. However , as the statistics indicate, it appears that checking them will usually result in "everything O.K." Personally I find the (valve check) procedure therapeutic and almost as much fun as riding the beast. Actually I cannot wait to tear the LT apart again , so I end up riding more so that I can wrench more.

[meese]

Actually I cannot wait to tear the LT apart again , so I end up riding more so that I can wrench more.That's kinda sick, Patrick, but in a good way. :D

[patrick2000]

That's kinda sick, Patrick, but in a good way. :D

Meese,

I agree it is sick behavior, but it provides a degree of personal inner happiness. I guess it is the idea of being in control of the mechanics of the machine. Fortunately, or unfortunately, I enjoy wrenching so much that it consumes a lot of my time. Things like popping the valve cover and staring at the cam lobes in wonder that they are still shiny and unworn after 12K miles and a bazillion revolutions can eat up a half hour of shoptime. Perhaps this is one of the reasons I have not considered the LT a high maintenance machine. In retrospect the maintenance produces a high.

[mjac]

Maybe BMW would change the intervals if they were required to pick up the tab for every bike that did not need adjustment, or better yet include the first service with the purchace of the bike.

To quote one of our more senior and LD Rider members, Don Authur, "maintance schedules are set up more for dealer maintance than bike maintance." (I think the quote is accurate, please correct me if it isnt)
That said, I look at the valves more for peace of mind rather than think they actually are going to need adjustment.
Each to their own.

[Bart]

I can appreciate a desire to know the inner workings of one's own bike. So now I wonder, if BMW did change the intervals to 36k, would some of you still open it up every 12k just to look? Or will some defend the burdens of a bike (any bike) simply because they are proud of what they own? If so, Harley owners have this down to a science! I'm afraid the truth behind much of this lies heavly with the power of the dealerships as both they and corporate know if the bike were labeled with 36k intervals, the dealer would not again see the bike after purchase until that time - and there's a lot of money to be made between 12k and 36k miles. 12k is simply old school, and one look at what BMW engineers in the 4-wheel department will know BMW is capable of anything but old school.

That's my morning rant. I'm going for a ride on my bike - and this one requires no valve adjustments or oil changes. ;~}

[KBandit]

i filled out the survey and you can take the stats on face value. but for what it's worth, i had two valves SIGNIFICANTLY out of spec at 12k. so i think it is worth a look.

out of spec valve gaps, left unadjusted, can do much more expensive damage to valvetrains than the price of a simple adjustment.

here's what i did: i worked with my BMW dealer on a price break for leaving the left side tupperware stripped away so that i wouldn't be charged for the labor of removing and reinstalling it. then i rode it to the dealer that way. it looked like "frankenbike" but it saved me a bundle, and now i don't have to worry about my valvetrain hammering itself to death or burning a valve.

[meese]

Hey Bart,

I like your signature. Of course, it could be updated to: All clicks lead to www.Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwyll-llantysiliogogogoch.com :)

[Bart]

Hey Bart,

I like your signature. Of course, it could be updated to: All clicks lead to www.Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwyll-llantysiliogogogoch.com (http://www.Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwyll-llantysiliogogogoch.com) :)

Yep, that's quite a name, isn't it? LOL

Someday I'd like to have a picture of me and my GS in front of that building. Oh well, it's free to dream - right? :)

[DaveDragon]

I'd love to tour Snowdonia on a GSA :thumb:

[meese]

Been all over Snowdonia and up the mountain on the old cog railway, but never been to Llanfair PG (as everyone but the locals call it). Lots of misty wet weather, but great roads and scenery nonetheless.

Been to both Land’s End and John O’Groats as well, though I always wanted to ride straight between the two. Now I hear the Iron Butt guys are certifying that ride. Oh well, maybe next time.

[TimVipond]

At 36K my valves were in spec, but the camshafts were pitted and the surface of the cams looked discolored. This is unusual for the brick engine , but it does happen and fortunately, for me, they were replaced under warranty. Just another reason to spend a little time, or bit of money, about every 12K and have the valvae checked.

Patrick - what do you think caused your camshafts to be pitted and discolored? Some motor oils offer better corrosion resistance than others. It is not so much the oil itself as it is the additive package. Which oil were you using? Do you think you had a coolant leak? Do you frequently run your bike on short trips, cool temps, high humidity? An oil analysis might have been nice to have to narrow down the problem.

My cams and camshaft still look new at 130,000 miles, so I am puzzled as to what might have caused it and what can be done to prevent it.

[meese]

Maybe he was using that special HD oil? :)

Sounds like a pretty rare instance to me. Not something I'd worry about apart from the regular 12K inspections.

[patrick2000]

Patrick - what do you think caused your camshafts to be pitted and discolored? Some motor oils offer better corrosion resistance than others. It is not so much the oil itself as it is the additive package. Which oil were you using? Do you think you had a coolant leak? Do you frequently run your bike on short trips, cool temps, high humidity? An oil analysis might have been nice to have to narrow down the problem.

My cams and camshaft still look new at 130,000 miles, so I am puzzled as to what might have caused it and what can be done to prevent it.

Tim,

It was not an oil related issue. The pitts and discoloration were a product of a poor factory treating process. BMW replaced the cams and paid for labor to install. BMW said, pitted cams from a bad treating process were unusual, but not unheard of. I've hammered another 40K on the new camshafts without any problem so it appears the cams were the problem.

I'm curious as to why you would think of it as an oil problem? In my experience oil is oil is oil. In fact I have had better luck with 99 cent Pep Boys special (oil) than with the overpriced snake oil available today. In the past my motors that exceeded 100K were fed a steady diet of whatever 99 cent special I could lay my hands on. My Honda ST1100 was retired at 181K because the bike needed more repairs than it was worth, but the engine was as strong as new. On that motor I seldom changed the oil before 10K and used the cheapest stuff I could find. On all my motorcycles the oil gets changed at irregular intervals with and the engine always out lasts the rest of the machine, so I do not worry about oil.

Just my opinion , but I do not believe engine longevity and oil type are related . The "K" bike engine will probably out last the rest of the machine regardless of the type of lube, or oil change interval, as long as the interval is reasonable and the correct oil weight is used.

[TimVipond]

Tim,

It was not an oil related issue. The pitts and discoloration were a product of a poor treating process. BMW replaced the cams and paid for labor to install. BMW said pitted cams from a bad treating process were unusual, but not unheard of. I've hammered another 40K on the new camshafts without any problem so it appears the cams were the problem.

I'm curious as to why you would think of it as an oil problem? In my experience oil is oil. In fact I have had better luck with 99 cent Pep Boys special than with the overpriced snake oil available today. In the past motors that exceeded 100K were fed a steady diet of whatever 99 cent special I could lay my hands on. The oil got changed at irregular intervals and the engine always out lasted the rest of the machine, so I do not worry about oil. Just my opinion , but I do not believe engine longevity and oil type are related . The K bike engine will probably out last the rest of the machine regardless of the type of lube, or the oil change interval as long as the interval is reasonable and the correct oil weight is used.

Patrick,

I read this paper https://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2156.pdf on motorcycle oil and noticed some oils protect against corrosion better than others. Take a look at page 20. One of the signs of corrosion is pitting. I am assuming your cam and camshaft looked fine until the 36,000 mile inspection and thought that maybe you changed oils between the 24,000 mile inspection and 36,000 mile inspection. I thought if you had used an "inferior" oil during that time, it might explain the discoloration and pitting. Especially since you use 99 cent motor oil frequently, which might be a tad low on anti-corrosion additives. Marine oils are also formulated to resist corrosion, due to their environment. Just a thought and still curious as to the oil history in your bike and if anyone had ever had this problem in their K1200LT. This is the first I've heard of it.

[patrick2000]

Patrick,

I read this paper https://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2156.pdf on motorcycle oil and noticed some oils protect against corrosion better than others. Take a look at page 20. One of the signs of corrosion is pitting. I am assuming your cam and camshaft looked fine until the 36,000 mile inspection and thought that maybe you changed oils between the 24,000 mile inspection and 36,000 mile inspection. I thought if you had used an "inferior" oil during that time, it might explain the discoloration and pitting. Especially since you use 99 cent motor oil frequently, which might be a tad low on anti-corrosion additives. Marine oils are also formulated to resist corrosion, due to their environment. Just a thought and still curious as to the oil history in your bike and if anyone had ever had this problem in their K1200LT. This is the first I've heard of it.

Tim,
The irony of my situation is that I used the BMW oil and followed their recommended procedure during the warranty period. I changed over to the outrageously priced synthetic at about 18K, but as I said it was not an oil related camshaft failure. The defect was a result of the manufacturing process.

Now I'm back to the economy lube and I know at this stage that the engine will definitely outlast most major components on the LT regardless of oil.

[TimVipond]

Tim,
The irony of my situation is that I used the BMW oil and followed their recommended procedure during the warranty period. I changed over to the outrageously priced synthetic at about 18K, but as I said it was not an oil related camshaft failure. The defect was a result of the manufacturing process.

Now I'm back to the economy lube and I know at this stage that the engine will definitely outlast most major components on the LT regardless of oil.

Patrick,

Thanks for the data. Since the BMW synthetic oil in the paper passed the ASTM humidity test and I think it is the most frequent used oil in the K1200LT's and has a very good record, it seems you did get a bad camshaft.

As far as your oil is oil theory, you might want to read that paper thoroughly. You will notice a wide spectrum of test results, and these are from motorcycle specific oils. It would have been interesting if they had included 99 cent car/truck motor oils in this testing. Also, I am a retired Shell Oil chemist with 23 years at Shell's research facility in Houston. Although I did not specialize in motor oils and additives, about 500 scientists there did. Believe me, if oil is oil Shell would not spend all that money testing and improving motor oils. Also, many of the mechanics I have talked to have told me they can tell the difference in engine cleanliness, wear, and reliability between synthetics and cheap petroleum oils. Also, if you compare typical property values on data sheets, there is a wide range of test results.

I agree with you that as long as you do frequent oil changes (say 3,000 miles/3 months) with cheap oils that meet the specifications/requirements listed in the owners manual, you probably are correct that the engines might still last as long as you want. I prefer my 16,000 mile oil change intervals, but it is a job I detest. I do find it interesting that the Texas State Police (about 3,000 cars) have exclusively used a specific synthetic oil at 20,000 mile oil change intervals for the past 10 years, and have less wear and repairs than when they used to use petroleum oils at 3,000 mile oil change intervals. And that in Europe, they change their "true" synthetic oils at 10,000 to 20,000 mile oil change intervals.

I'm still curious as to which 99 cent economy oil you use? Care to share your secret? I'd like to take a closer look at it, to see if it is something I might consider. If you prefer me not to post a comparison, I won't.

[patrick2000]

Tim
[Quote] I'm still curious as to which 99 cent economy oil you use? Care to share your secret? I'd like to take a closer look at it, ...[Quote]

O.K... let's see, what brands have I found close to 99 cents? How about, Texaco, Quaker state, Pennzoil, Citgo, Clark, Arco, Chevron, to name a few. They all perform about the same IMO. After all oil is oil.

[TimVipond]

Patrick - thanks for using Pennzoil and Quaker State. You have been supporting Shell who provides me with a monthly pension check. As you use so many brands, it would be difficult for me to do a comparison, but one has been already done here, if anyone would like to take a look. http://www.themotoroilsite.com/forums/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=549 . To me it is amazing in the wide variance of typical properties. Generally, synthetics are at the top of the list, blends in the middle, and petroleums at the bottom. Do you always use a 20W50? I am glad that using dollar oils work for you. I'd just rather pay a little more and increase my odds for keeping my engine longer, cooler, extend my oil change intervals and getting more gas mileage to boot. Also I notice better shifting with better oils in the transmission and hope my drive shaft will last longer too. To each their own.

A friend of mind rides a CBR1100?XX Blackbird and unknown to him had a hole punched into his radiator this weekend from a rock kicked up by another bike. He had pegged his temperature gauge in the red zone for who knows how long, yet his bike is OK. The oil he used has a flash/fire point of 453/478F. If he had used a certain 15W40, the flash point is only 360F, which might have been low enough to cook his oil and engine. Royal Purple has done some interesting InfraRed photography comparing their synthetic oil temperatures to petroleum oil temperatures at http://www.royalpurple.com/techrp/longview.pdf . They also have lots of other test data available comparing their synthetic oils with petroleum oils at www.royalpurple.com with "real world independent testing".

Oops, my previous note where I said I do 16,000 mile oil changes is incorrect. I should have stated I do 12,000 mile engine oil changes and once went 14,000 miles because of an emergency trip.