R1200RT Dry Clutch Question

[XTrooper]

Lots of riding experience, zero experience with the BMW dry clutch, so here's my question. I have always preferred to "hold" a bike using the clutch on steep inclines, a common and normally acceptable practice. Is this method verboten with a dry clutch?

Thanks!

[hopz]

Well, I do not mean to be snippy or anything other than helpful, but holding anything (car/bike/lawnmower) on a hill by slipping a clutch ... may be "acceptable practice" to you but not to me, and I suspect few others.

If you are on an incline and need to hold, use the brake.

As far as I am concerned this applies to either a wet or a dry clutch.

[mneblett]

Well, I do not mean to be snippy or anything other than helpful, but holding anything (car/bike/lawnmower) on a hill by slipping a clutch ... may be "acceptable practice" to you but not to me, and I suspect few others.

If you are on an incline and need to hold, use the brake.

As far as I am concerned this applies to either a wet or a dry clutch.
+1
FWIW, the dry clutch in your BMW won't like the heating from this practice -- a wet clutch at least has some cooling from the oil bath. The BMW clutch is air cooled, and there's not much air flow (as in basically none) in the space between the engine and tranny.

[XTrooper]

Well, I do not mean to be snippy or anything other than helpful, but holding anything (car/bike/lawnmower) on a hill by slipping a clutch ... may be "acceptable practice" to you but not to me, and I suspect few others.

If you are on an incline and need to hold, use the brake.

As far as I am concerned this applies to either a wet or a dry clutch.

Bob,

Forty years ago when I first went through motor officer training, we were taught 3 methods of holding a bike on a hill: 1. with the rear brake (left foot down, right foot on the rear brake pedal), 2. with the front brake, and 3. with the clutch. There was no preferred or recommended method, it was strictly a matter of choice. I and many of my colleagues used the clutch method and did so over the course of many years with absolutely no ill effects to the wet clutch Harleys we all rode. As long as you kept the engine speed at or slightly above idle, this practice was never a problem. Your perceived idea that this method must be inherently harmful and that few sane persons would think it acceptable isn't by any means "snippy," but it is mistaken.

I suspected that a dry clutch wouldn't "appreciate" this method and wanted to confirm my suspicions with those who have experience with them. My thanks to mneblett for providing that confirmation. I'll hold the RT with the brake and keep its clutch happy. ;)

[MarinPhil]

XTrooper, a brother retired LEO wouldn't lie to you-stop doing that! :wave

[XTrooper]

XTrooper, a brother retired LEO wouldn't lie to you-stop doing that! :wave

I won't! I promise! :D

[hopz]

Steve, one thing about this "community" is that the phrase "Ride Your Own Ride" is taken seriously.

You asked an honest question. I gave an honest opinion. If you or anyone else wants to slip a clutch to hold on an incline, far be it from me to criticize you for it.

[deanwoolsey]

Not to get too technical but the reason you can get away with holding using a wet clutch is the lubrication and viscosity of the oil. The oil not only carries away the heat generated but also lubricates the plates which keeps them from wearing as quickly as a dry clutch. I don't think it's a big deal on a wet clutch but on the dry BMW units I avoid it like a plague. The bottom line in both cases is that the less you use the "friction zone" the longer your clutch should last unless of course you get the dreaded seal failure or slave cylinder failure.

[XTrooper]

Not to get too technical but the reason you can get away with holding using a wet clutch is the lubrication and viscosity of the oil. The oil not only carries away the heat generated but also lubricates the plates which keeps them from wearing as quickly as a dry clutch. I don't think it's a big deal on a wet clutch but on the dry BMW units I avoid it like a plague. The bottom line in both cases is that the less you use the "friction zone" the longer your clutch should last unless of course you get the dreaded seal failure or slave cylinder failure.

Thanks for the technical insight.

[Atomicman]

With all due respect! Ociffer!:)

Regardless of wet clutch /dry clutch explanation and logic. what possible advantage is there to stitting in place on a hill and slipping the clutch? None!!! Even with a wet clutch, this eventually is going have an effect on the clutch. Pretty much common sense isn't it?

I sit with my right foot on the rear brake, left foot on the ground. makes it easy to apply throttle when you are ready to roll without having to worry about releasng the brake grip while modulating the throttle for a smooth take off!

[cliffy109]

With all due respect! Ociffer!:)

Regardless of wet clutch /dry clutch explanation and logic. what possible advantage is there to stitting in place on a hill and slipping the clutch? None!!! Even with a wet clutch, this eventually is going have an effect on the clutch. Pretty much common sense isn't it?

I sit with my right foot on the rear brake, left foot on the ground. makes it easy to apply throttle when you are ready to roll without having to worry about releasng the brake grip while modulating the throttle for a smooth take off!

Keep in mind the source and likely timing of his training. He is a self-proclaimed "retired" officer which means his training was likely a long time ago. Training techniques have evolved a lot over the past 20 years in all aspects of law enforcement. There was a time (not as long ago as you would think) when cops were taught to shoot one handed and from the hip in what was called "instinctive" shooting. I can certainly believe that a certain school of thought would believe that staying in gear with neither brake engaged could have a tactical advantage for a motor-officer.

I'm not saying its a good idea. I am saying that cutting a bit of slack in in order. The point of forums like this are to learn and if a person doesn't ask, they will not know.

[XTrooper]

Even with a wet clutch, this eventually is going have an effect on the clutch. Pretty much common sense isn't it?


To my mind, common sense includes refraining from making statements about things you know nothing about. The fact is, it doesn't have any detrimental effect on a wet clutch. This statement is founded on years of experience, not pure conjecture.

I've put tens of thousands of miles on a fair number of Harleys where this method was used daily and never had a clutch fail prematurely nor did I ever hear of it happening to anyone else. I can assure you that if there was ANY indication this practice was excessively hard on clutches, the practice would have been immediately banned and never again mentioned in training. It wasn't.

P.S.- The "ociffer" jibe was cute and soooooo original. :rolleyes:

[XTrooper]

Keep in mind the source and likely timing of his training. He is a self-proclaimed "retired" officer which means his training was likely a long time ago. Training techniques have evolved a lot over the past 20 years in all aspects of law enforcement. There was a time (not as long ago as you would think) when cops were taught to shoot one handed and from the hip in what was called "instinctive" shooting. I can certainly believe that a certain school of thought would believe that staying in gear with neither brake engaged could have a tactical advantage for a motor-officer.

I'm not saying its a good idea. I am saying that cutting a bit of slack in in order. The point of forums like this are to learn and if a person doesn't ask, they will not know.

If you consider forty years ago a long time, then you're absolutely correct in your assumption. I retired in 1991. :D

BTW, for close encounters of the lethal kind (arm's length away), the "speed rock" is still taught and is still the fastest, best method of survival in such a situation.

[Atomicman]

To my mind, common sense includes refraining from making statements about things you know nothing about. The fact is, it doesn't have any detrimental effect on a wet clutch. This statement is founded on years of experience, not pure conjecture.

I've put tens of thousands of miles on a fair number of Harleys where this method was used daily and never had a clutch fail prematurely nor did I ever hear of it happening to anyone else. I can assure you that if there was ANY indication this practice was excessively hard on clutches, the practice would have been immediately banned and never again mentioned in training. It wasn't.

P.S.- The "ociffer" jibe was cute and soooooo original. :rolleyes:

Where's your sense of humor?:rotf:

Still seems to make more sense to simply sit there with your brake on:confused:

[XTrooper]

Still seems to make more sense to simply sit there with your brake on:confused:

That's what I intend to do whenever I'm astride the RT. ;)

[cliffy109]

That's what I intend to do whenever I'm astride the RT. ;)

... and I bet you have stopped point shooting as well! LOL. :rotf:

[XTrooper]

... and I bet you have stopped point shooting as well! LOL. :rotf:

LOL :D

On a serious note, I'm a fervent member of the front sight crowd except for the aforementioned arm's length encounters. At "bad breath" distances, it's my firm belief that the speed rock is still the best option.

[JPSpen]

Geez, I must be really old...

When I took the drivers test, We had to hold on a hill using the clutch...
Cars all have dry clutches for the most part... Or at least they did back then.

I don't think it would cause you a problem when done sparingly...

But I can still get away pretty fast holding the front brake with the clutch in...

I never take the bike out of gear when at a stop sign or signal...

I will hold on a hill with the clutch when it's appropriate..... For a few seconds at most...

I have never had to replace a clutch on anything since my 66 Mustang...
I went through several clutches and at least two transmissions on that car....
But I fully understand why those failed... :)

I think my dad saw the wisdom of me buying my own cars after the mustang...
Remember that old saying ? " Obviously his dad's paying for his tires"

John

[XTrooper]

Geez, I must be really old...



Tell me about it!

Thanks for your reply, John. ;)


P.S.- You're correct about cars/trucks having dry clutches and yes, it's still true today.

[Stixx]

Well it is by no means a stupid question, as I had no idea until buying my first Beemer twin how sensitive the clutch is. I have had one apart and it is the flimsiest looking thing you can imagine. Nate told me that he can blow through a stock clutch in just a few laps racing so I take my clutch technique very serious.

Starting on Hills two up can be a pain and buzzing the dry clutch to get going definitly makes it stink , letting me know it is wearing . That said, one of the things I have worked on is being gentle with my clutch and after 20K she is still holding up with aggressive mountain runs. The trick is to slip it in neutral at lights (not a real safe thing but saves wear) and when riding two up avoid steep grade starts whenever possible.

The RT is long legged and needs a better first gear as it is easy to stall till you get the balance of "enough" throttle and not enough.

So practice, if you smell it burning keep trying , I did and I rarely abuse it now enough to make it stink.

[mneblett]

The trick is to slip it in neutral at lights (not a real safe thing but saves wear)
This does nothing to save wear on the clutch, as there is no clutch slippage when standing still in neutral (whether the clutch lever is in, separating the plate from the flywheel/pressure ring, or the clutch lever is out, leaving the clutch plate firmly engaged with the flywheel).

The only thing this *might* save is some wear on the throughout bearing, but on these bikes the bearing seems to last forever, so there's no real gain.

I'd rather be in gear, ready to react to the stoopid cagers.

[Stixx]

This does nothing to save wear on the clutch, as there is no clutch slippage when standing still in neutral (whether the clutch lever is in, separating the plate from the flywheel/pressure ring, or the clutch lever is out, leaving the clutch plate firmly engaged with the flywheel).

The only thing this *might* save is some wear on the throughout bearing, but on these bikes the bearing seems to last forever, so there's no real gain.

I'd rather be in gear, ready to react to the stoopid cagers.


Your point is well taken on the safety issue but you wont convince me it doesn't save wear. I have had to smell my chutch since I started the practice. I guess we just disagree on that point.

[mneblett]

Your point is well taken on the safety issue but you wont convince me it doesn't save wear. I have had to smell my chutch since I started the practice. I guess we just disagree on that point.
Well, while I don't feel compelled to convince you of anything, your comment defies logic -- what part of the clutch can wear if there's no sliding contact??

When you're at a stop, either the clutch is disengaged (no contact with the flywheel or pressure ring), or it's engaged (full, non-sliding contact with the flywheel/pressure ring). The *only* possibility for wear is if the clutch throw out apparatus is malfunctioning and not fully disengaging the clutch (and you'd feel that with the bike trying to creep forward at a stop and/or clashing during gear changes). But that would be a problem requiring repair, not a function of normal operation.

Don't get me wrong, if that's how you want to operate you bike, more power to ya -- I'll be the first to say that you are entitled to operate your bike however you wish. My point is that you should not justify your practice based on a false assumption which, posted here in public, could potentially mislead others into altering their practices for an incorrect reason.

Hope this helps you see where I'm coming from. http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

[hogdvr]

Well, while I don't feel compelled to convince you of anything, your comment defies logic -- what part of the clutch can wear if there's no sliding contact??

When you're at a stop, either the clutch is disengaged (no contact with the flywheel or pressure ring), or it's engaged (full, non-sliding contact with the flywheel/pressure ring). The *only* possibility for wear is if the clutch throw out apparatus is malfunctioning and not fully disengaging the clutch (and you'd feel that with the bike trying to creep forward at a stop and/or clashing during gear changes). But that would be a problem requiring repair, not a function of normal operation.

Don't get me wrong, if that's how you want to operate you bike, more power to ya -- I'll be the first to say that you are entitled to operate your bike however you wish. My point is that you should not justify your practice based on a false assumption which, posted here in public, could potentially mislead others into altering their practices for an incorrect reason.

Hope this helps you see where I'm coming from. http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

I know I'm new here but I would like to weigh in on this subject. It is not particular to BMW.

I have always maintained first gear anytime I am stopped on a motorcycle or in a car. In neutral you have no control over the vehicle whatsoever. In gear you do. Wet clutch or dry there is no wear on a clutch with the transmission in gear with the clutch lever or pedal in .

[hopz]

I'm with Mark on this one.

As he said, the Safety and Good Practice issue set aside, the question of good/bad on the Clutch is what we are talking about.

He said " I have had to smell the clutch" I am going to assume he means he has YET to smell the clutch.

Well, My RT is an '05, with appropriate mileage and I am yet to smell the clutch at a stop either, and I always leave it in gear, clutch pulled in. I agree, there is no clutch wear if the clutch is not engaged.

By-the-way... I ride 2-up most of the time and I do live in the mountains and I do get the clutch smell when I am taking off on an uphill, and it bothers me. I expect I will have some clutch replacement or work, but that is the cost of having my sweetheart with me, and I am willing to pay it.

[XTrooper]

I'm with Mark on this one.

As he said, the Safety and Good Practice issue set aside, the question of good/bad on the Clutch is what we are talking about.

He said " I have had to smell the clutch" I am going to assume he means he has YET to smell the clutch.

Well, My RT is an '05, with appropriate mileage and I am yet to smell the clutch at a stop either, and I always leave it in gear, clutch pulled in. I agree, there is no clutch wear if the clutch is not engaged.

By-the-way... I ride 2-up most of the time and I do live in the mountains and I do get the clutch smell when I am taking off on an uphill, and it bothers me. I expect I will have some clutch replacement or work, but that is the cost of having my sweetheart with me, and I am willing to pay it.

I'm with you on all counts. I'd never sit at a light with the bike in neutral even if it was detrimental to the clutch, which I don't believe it is. The well-being of my wife and I are worth a lot more to me than the cost of a new clutch.
I too live in the mountains and it's an everyday occurrence for me to be stopped on an uphill incline. This fact is what precipitated my original question. I'll have to become well-versed with the new bike and clutch before I venture out with Judy on the back. Normally, 90% of my riding is 2-Up, but I want to be sure I'm comfortable with the RT before I take her along.

BTW, I made my final decision today and we're going to sign the paperwork on the new bike tomorrow. I should take possession by the middle of next week. There's a slight delay involved in me riding the bike home because my credit union is a couple of hundred miles away in New Jersey (dating back to my NJSP days), so everything has to be done through the mail.

[Stixx]

I hear you guys and said in fact it is not the safest practice, however, the only time I've been rear ended was at a traffic light when I started out and the bike balked for a second and a young gal with a cell phone in her hand managed to lauch me . So while I agree I would prefer to keep it in gear when stopped and do at everything buy long lights where the turn lane has to go then the others and here in Atlanta that can be a long time. By then there are usually a dozen cars behind me and I engage my first gear between the turn light and the straight ahead light, giving some relief to clutch since it is out and spinning free to air it out between runs.

I am not the only one who does this with bmw dry cluthes and since I go by how it smells I am indeed convinced this practice helps the fragine clutch plate to cool off some. I used to smell my clutch constantly on my old R 1150 R and when I first got my RT I thought here we go again, and decided I had to find out what I could do to not over stress the thing. Since I began being more effective on launches , avoiding starting on steep hills two up and letting the clutch "breath" while stopped for long lights or anyother stop where the engine remains idle for some time, I have YET to smell the burning tell tell clutch wearing odor............. That works for me. Oh and yes if I am the only guy at a light I usually don't kick it out of gear when traffic is buzzing about,. Especially after the rear ending incident, although that bump would have happened regardless of what gear I was in, there is no defense agains stupidity, but that is a whole nother thread. LOL

[Bob1200rtc1]

I shift into neutral at a stop. I can't say what the effect on clutch life is but it's definately easier on my left hand. I put a clutch in my 00 RT at 86,000 ($400 in parts and took me about 8 hours). If my 07 ends up needing one I'll put that one in too.

[New2rt]

I don't think having the clutch in or out when stopped does anything to cool or add life to the clutch itself. Having the lever out would give the throw-out bearing a rest, if so equipped.
Slipping a dry clutch to hold a hill could lead to glazing and excessive heat, personally speaking, I wouldn't do it.