Brokeback Mountain

[BillyOmaha]

Please make your selection in the poll before reading any of the posts in the thread. I'm looking for spontaneous replies first, then the discussion.

Thanks,


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[eljeffe]

Life imitates art? Could Cartman from South Park be right?

Click Here (http://www.jahozafat.com/cgi-bin/spmp3s.cgi?Episode_209_Chefs_Salty_Chocolate_Balls=209_fatass.mp3)

[BillyOmaha]

Life imitates art? Could Cartman from South Park be right?

Click Here (http://www.jahozafat.com/cgi-bin/spmp3s.cgi?Episode_209_Chefs_Salty_Chocolate_Balls=209_fatass.mp3)

ROTFLMAO!!!

[meese]

Haven't seen it, but we're planning to. Not too much into cowboy movies overall, but the fact that some groups have pressured certain theaters not to show it really annoys me. The fact that those same theaters have no qualms about showing Hostel, which is basically 2 hours of graphic torture scenes, shows the double standard here.

If you don't like the message, don't go see the movie, period.

[Jerrod Maguire]

Big deal... it's a story being told. Don't care for the particular story... don't go see the movie.

[Matt]

Where's the "Haven't seen it and don't care to." entry?

[BillyOmaha]

Where's the "Haven't seen it and don't care to." entry?

Howdy Matt,

I thought it was implicit in "Have NOT seen it, but understand the content ,and consider it a movie that should not be presented."


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[Tallyho]

Definitely not the movie all the hype is making it out to be. Just Hollywood trying to pushing their agenda. It could be the greatest award winner no one bothered to watch. Is it worthy to be up there with other Golden Globe winners? Probably not. I have a relative the manages a 12 screen theater in the Bay area. Even there, he says no one in breaking down the doors to see it.

Loved the Cartman reference, Jeff. http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/lachen/laughing-smiley-008.gif

I don't care if they make movies about this subject matter. At least it was original and not a remake of Outlaw Josey Wales where it turns out Josie and Lone Wadi have a special relationship. No one is forced to plop their ten bucks down to watch it and no one is forced to watch all the award hype on TV.

[meese]

Nah, there's a subtle but important difference between "don't care to" see it, and "consider it a movie that should not be presented." The former describes an individual's personal opinion, and the latter forces an individual's negative opinion on everyone. That's also different from "have no opinion about it," which also happens to leave things open for others.

Jeez, I thought we'd covered all this before. :D I'd sure hate to write polls for a living. :D

[dshealey]

Howdy Matt,

I thought it was implicit in "Have NOT seen it, but understand the content ,and consider it a movie that should not be presented."


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No, that states that one thinks it should not be presented at all. The question was why is there not a choice for a person who does not want to see it, but does not care if others do.

I feel that one choice oversight leaves out a great number of people. Me for one.

[BillyOmaha]

No, that states that one thinks it should not be presented at all. The question was why is there not a choice for a person who does not want to see it, but does not care if others do.

I feel that one choice oversight leaves out a great number of people. Me for one.

Howdy David,

Your statement is a bit different than the one from Matt. Your statement, "The question was why is there not a choice for a person who does not want to see it, but does not care if others do." It includes, "but does not care if others do".

I believe your statement would be in-line with the choice: "Have NOT seen it and have no opinion about it."

Since the essence of the poll is the question about the "presentation" to the public, the "no opinion about it." would be a bit more accurate if it said "no opinion about its presentation."

As language is imprecise in virtually all applications, perhaps excluding mathematics and science, and the precision is further eroded by the limitation of the one attempting to communicate, I can only reply, "mea culpa".

Polling is difficult to conduct accurately. Ignoring the tendency towards bias in the phrasing there is still the matter of results and participation to consider. Too little precision and the results are meaningless. Too many choices to achieve precision and they are either randomly selected or entirely ignored by those not motivated to discriminate.

With the 7 choices presented, I tried to strike a balance that will result a relatively accurate break-down of the participants opinion.

I hope you'll reconsider and find one of the choices most accurately describes your opinion.



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[JATownsend]

Life imitates art?

Actually, it's the other way around.

Art imitates Life!!

Real life is always stranger that fiction. That's why life is such a great resource for filmmakers.

A few years ago there was a much publicized incident in Montana or Wyoming about a young, gay guy found beaten to death and hung-up on a barbwire fence. Some writer type simply started at THAT END POINT and created his or her own version of what they believed happened that led up to the youngman's demise.

In any event, I agree with the position if you don't like the premise - Don't waste your money on a film to only bitch about it latter. (Unless, of course your wife TOLD you to come along. Don't ask me now I know that!) :rolleyes:

[prtdvl]

I saw it. There were scenes in it that made my jaw drop, and dry heave. Not my lifestyle, but to each their own. How two guys can go from beating the crap out of each other to "gettin it on" in 8 seconds is shocking. It was interesting to hear the "couples" in the theater talk about it on the way out. One "couple" said "it just makes me sick that all of society thinks "we".... "do it" doggystyle. We like to see our partner's face during sex like everyone else." My wife got a grand kick out of it. I ran to the car and laid rubber out of the lot. Almost left her there. Hope I didn't offend anyone.

[BillyOmaha]

Definitely not the movie all the hype is making it out to be. Just Hollywood trying to pushing their agenda. ....

Howdy Bob,

Not to put you on the spot, well maybe a little of that too ;) , but mainly for my own edification related to the poll, I would ask two questions:

1- Did you see the movie?

2- What is the agenda you believe the producers of this movie are trying to push?
(I would state my opinion first, but I'm a bit reserved about saying what I think regarding controversial topics :) )

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[dshealey]

At least you had the nerve to actually see it. You would have to drive me in at gunpoint, but hopefully it would be dark enough so you could not see that I had my eyes clamped tightly shut. Don't know how to handle plugging the ears though. :D

[Matt]

Oh, I have a definite opinion about the movie and a lot of the other crap coming out of hollywood, but I don't care if anyone else sees the film. It's their choice and I'm glad we're all able to make our own choices. I have not seen it and truly don't care to. But if you want to, go right ahead. I hope you enjoy it.

[pkpr1998]

I wouldn't admit going even if I did! Hollywood's movies have gotten worse (use your imagination for the definition) over the years; and they wonder why box office ticket sales have been down for several years!

Now, I haven't seen the movie and will not see the movie; as one said earleir, it's crap!

And yes, Hollywood IS pushing their agenda for tolerance. Mind you that MOST of us are still conservative and don't condone nor want to see the **$#^!

If this doesn't belong in this Forum (Surveys and Polls) sorry.

[ErnieA]

I wouldn't admit going even if I did! Hollywood's movies have gotten worse (use your imagination for the definition) over the years; and they wonder why box office ticket sales have been down for several years!

Now, I haven't seen the movie and will not see the movie; as one said earleir, it's crap!

And yes, Hollywood IS pushing their agenda for tolerance. Mind you that MOST of us are still conservative and don't condone nor want to see the **$#^!

If this doesn't belong in this Forum (Surveys and Polls) sorry.

1) Is it a fact that ticket sales are down? I do not really keep up with the subject. However you speak with such authority I thought you might know for sure.

2) If you haven't seen something how can you judge it as being "crap"? I am not being argumentive here, just pointing out that a reasonable conservative person might want to develop opinions based on first-hand information.

3) Is Hollywood "pushing" an agenda here? Since I see many more films based on such different genres other than homosexuality coming out of the total film industry, I can't see an agenda based on this one film alone, and I don't see more out there of this genre getting this much attention. As a matter of fact I have seen many more films with heterosexual situations coming out of Hollywood. Can it be that hetero is truly their agenda? And, floating a controversial subject now and again is just throwing a bone (pardon the reference) to those with different tastes? I'm just wondering if you have that answer?

4) You are right on the "most are conservative" as far as this site is concerned. Click on the link to another survey.
http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4422

5) You should not have offended anyone with your opinion(s). This poll has been posted to get a variety of opinions of members of this site and whether or not they have seen, will see, or are not interested in seeing a particular movie. Any reasonable person could not get offended by someone doing just as the site asked (just giving their opinion).

[BecketMa]

A poll on a movie in the LT community?

Is this because the horses in the movie are symbolic of a motor cycle?

Wouldn't that place the movie review in a dirt bike forum?

Bob

[BillyOmaha]

Howdy Bob,

A poll on a movie in the LT community? Why not? The LT community are people too..... for the most part. ;)


Is this because the horses in the movie are symbolic of a motor cycle?"Yeah, that's it! That's the ticket. :)


Wouldn't that place the movie review in a dirt bike forum?Huh :confused: Gay joke?

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[pkpr1998]

1) Is it a fact that ticket sales are down? I do not really keep up with the subject. However you speak with such authority I thought you might know for sure.

2) If you haven't seen something how can you judge it as being "crap"? I am not being argumentive here, just pointing out that a reasonable conservative person might want to develop opinions based on first-hand information.

3) Is Hollywood "pushing" an agenda here? Since I see many more films based on such different genres other than homosexuality coming out of the total film industry, I can't see an agenda based on this one film alone, and I don't see more out there of this genre getting this much attention. As a matter of fact I have seen many more films with heterosexual situations coming out of Hollywood. Can it be that hetero is truly their agenda? And, floating a controversial subject now and again is just throwing a bone (pardon the reference) to those with different tastes? I'm just wondering if you have that answer?

4) You are right on the "most are conservative" as far as this site is concerned. Click on the link to another survey.
http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4422

5) You should not have offended anyone with your opinion(s). This poll has been posted to get a variety of opinions of members of this site and whether or not they have seen, will see, or are not interested in seeing a particular movie. Any reasonable person could not get offended by someone doing just as the site asked (just giving their opinion).

#1 According the media (good reliable source!) ticket sales HAVE been down for the past few years.

#2 Correct, I haven't seen the movie because of its' content. Who wants to see a movie about two homosexual cowboys? Now that's a wholesome movie. What's next?

#3 Yes, Hollywood has been pushing many an agenda for a lot of years. I just don't mean the big silver screen either. Just flip the tube on!

#4 Seen the thread

#5 Most of it you are correct. But I'll take my chances here and say that most people in this country and on this board would agree with the fact that a movie such as break my back-side mountain is trash. I feel as if most, if not all the people who has gaized at this thread have not been offended.

Good bye! :p

[simoncharles]

People seem to have short memories.
Have you forgotten about Philadelphia, starring Tom Hanks ?.
Same sort of story line.

Forget the plot, the film has beautifull shots of your country, of which you should be proud, and the acting, especially the women in it (yes there are women), is superb.

As far as I am concerned, and this is a personal opinion, anybody who denigrates something without having seen it, should not voice an opinion.

[ErnieA]

People seem to have short memories.
Have you forgotten about Philadelphia, starring Tom Hanks ?.
Same sort of story line.

Forget the plot, the film has beautifull shots of your country, of which you should be proud, and the acting, especially the women in it (yes there are women), is superb.

As far as I am concerned, and this is a personal opinion, anybody who denigrates something without having seen it, should not voice an opinion.

Philadelphia was about something different (AIDS and the workplace), but it did have a homosexual couple at the center of the plot. Brokeback Mountain was filmed in Alberta Canada. It is beautiful country up there for sure. Our 1st amendment rights guarantee the right to have and voice an opinion, even if the person has no credible facts to back up their assertions. The responsibility for those who don't want to play that game is to get the facts and present them. To take their assertions as fact is just as irresponsible. Thank you for choosing an objective opinion, and have a good day.

[simoncharles]

Couldn't agree more, but what I said was to denigrate or negatively criticize something, without having the facts, is something which, although is fine and permitted, does not do justice, in this case, to either the actors, directors or anyone else involved.

See it, and then I will be the first to listen to anyones opinion.

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/featured_documents/magna_carta/

[dshealey]

I do not have an opinion of the movie, just the opinion that I have no interest in seeing it. It may be the greatest cinematic achievement of all time, and have the best actors of all time in it, but I still would not watch it. The subject matter is just something I have no interest in. I just don't think I could watch it through.

I did not see Philidelphia either, Academy award or not.

[meese]

So Brett, when did tolerance become un-wholseome? Or is it only "wholesome" if it happens to fit into your own limited value system?

I mean, imagine what the world would be like if people accepted each other without prejudice and instead of fighting against anything different they just went on with their own lives instead.

Sure it's utopian and unfortunately unreasonable given human nature, but I'd rather believe it's possible then resign myself the the fact that we're much better at bombing and beating those who we disagree with.

As for ticket sales, not only are there many more movies coming out these days (in all subjects), but there are also a lot more options out there. Not only did we have a huge thread about serious home theater equipment recently, but video rentals and sales, Netflix, and cable TV download services (not to mention illegal internet copies) mean you can pretty much get any movie you want literally days or weeks after its theater run. There have been several recent movies that my wife and I have passed up, knowing that we'd just see them a few weeks later in the comfort of our own home, for less money, and with several friends over.

So attaching declining ticket sales to some sort of rejection of Hollywood's agenda just doesn't pan out. That may well be your reason, but once again please don't assume that automatically goes for everyone else.

[meese]

So after 122 votes and not quite a week, it looks like 31% feel that the movie should not be presented, while 24% feel that it should be presented. As expected, the largest group at 45% have no opinion about it.

Interestingly enough, only 9% or 11 people actually saw the movie, and of those twice as many felt is should be presented, withe the rest had no opinion. No one who saw it felt that it should not be presented. However ten times that amount have not seen it, but felt the need to voice their opinion in this poll based on their perceptions of the movie's content rather than actual experience.

So roughly 1/4 of the people were for it, 1/4 of the people were against it, almost 1/2 of the people didn't care, and only 1/10 of the people actually had first hand experience of the situation. That sounds about right.

Note that this poll never asked if we approved of the movie or its subject matter, just if we felt it should be should be presented for those who freely choose to see it. Nowhere was it suggested this become required viewing for everyone, and the vast majority simply chose not to see it regardless of their opinions.

Feel free to analyze these statistics yourself and pull out your own conclusions. Meanwhile, I'm off to the movies, if I can find anything worth almost $10 a person. :)

[ErnieA]

As for ticket sales, not only are there many more movies coming out these days (in all subjects), but there are also a lot more options out there. Not only did we have a huge thread about serious home theater equipment recently, but video rentals and sales, Netflix, and cable TV download services (not to mention illegal internet copies) mean you can pretty much get any movie you want literally days or weeks after its theater run. There have been several recent movies that my wife and I have passed up, knowing that we'd just see them a few weeks later in the comfort of our own home, for less money, and with several friends over.

So attaching declining ticket sales to some sort of rejection of Hollywood's agenda just doesn't pan out. That may well be your reason, but once again please don't assume that automatically goes for everyone else.

Appologies for picking up on this part of the thread: I agree with you Ken that it is possible that major box office receipts could be lower, but I seriously doubt it is from the movies being produced and released. To back up my assertion I've emailed an independent study group to see if they can release their statistics (I just don't want to join the ranks of people who spout statistical information without backing it up). I did look through IMDB.com to see where this movie fell into the mix over the weekend.

'Brokeback' Nears Top of Box-Office Mountain Again
26 January 2006 (StudioBriefing)
Brokeback Mountain rose to second place in mid-week ticket sales, continuing to earn about $740,000 per day, the same amount as last week. Its per-theater gross also remained substantially ahead of all other films as it screened in 1,194 theaters versus 3,207 for the overall leader, the horror flick Underworld: Evolution.

Interesting that it is doing so well in less than half of the venues of the leading picture.

[ErnieA]

Feel free to analyze these statistics yourself and pull out your own conclusions. Meanwhile, I'm off to the movies.

The Stats are as you state, no way around it. Since the movie has been out for about 5 weeks now I wonder how many more on this site have watched it and choose not to respond?

Whatever. If I wasn't recuperating from this shoulder surgery I wouldn't have probably noticed the poll, and therefore no one would have known whether or not I went to see this flick. BTW... Buy a big drink to wash down the popcorn. There are a few points that could induce choking on a kernel or two. http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif

[mmanthey]

Before I vote I want to know what the "message" is.
I don't think all movies have a "message". Oh sure, I suppose you could watch just about any film and come up with a "message". But sometimes Hollywood makes films for entertainment. Anybody heard of Harry Potter or Star Wars? If there is a message it is always the same. "Love conquers all", "Good overcomes evil", or "Thank you for your time and hard earned money." Pick one.
Is it entertaining to watch two men grab each other in the wilds of Wyoming and struggle with there feelings for the rest of their lives? Maybe for some folks.
I thought this was a film based on a short story. I saw it as a well directed film with some very good acting. Visually stunning scenery and that was about it. Just entertainment.
Is the message, "people hate gay men"? Is the message, "even cowboys can be gay"? Is the message, "See how lucky you are not to have been gay in the old days"? I could come up with several messages for the film. Or it might have just been entertainment. You do get to see Anne Hatheway topless for a second! That was a bonus.

(Please note: This post is for entertainment purposes only)

[BillyOmaha]

Before I vote I want to know what the "message" is....(Please note: This post is for entertainment purposes only)

Howdy mmanthey,

Tsk, tsk, tsk ;) .....I asked that you vote before reading the posts in order to get your spontaneous opinion. It appears that not everyone "conforms" to my version of normal :) .

I thought about including a similar comment about your post being "for entertainment purposes only" in my original post for this thread. However, I have found that entertainment mediums, especially movies, are powerful methods of communication.

Sometimes a movie has a profound influence on the viewer and provokes introspective reflection, i.e. Schindler's List... to me, it was a message that one person can/must make difference in the face of "evil". While other movies may be cleverly arranged sounds and flickers of light of little or no consequence to our view of the world, or ourselves.



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[Tallyho]

Billy,

To answer your questions about 20 posts ago, (can't believe this is still going on) I voted before I posted. Third one down. I saw the movie so I could discuss the issues with my kids. Always good to have first hand information when discussing controversial issues with my daughters especially when they are in conflict with their upbringing from both the moral and family stability standpoint. Both are old enough to see the movie on their own and lest you think it might be judgemental it's more to help them understand why people are talking about it than anything else. (see Psalm 1)

The movie was OK. Nice scenery. The best acting was from the women not the guys. They are shepherds not cowboys. It's really just a snapshot of a couple of messed up people that mess up other people's lives in a beautiful setting.(It doesn't just happen in urban areas?) Personally, I don't think the graphic sex is necessary no matter what orientation you are. Did it add to the story or anyone's imagination? Is Anne Hathaway trying to lose her youthful, cutesy image so a nude scene becomes the fast track to better adult roles? Seems like the same is happening with male actors playing gay roles. Both situations seem like exploitation to me and a creative failure on the part of the director. Most of the time, I don't agree with the results of the Academy Awards. Who put them in charge of the collective conscience anyway? If it wins awards, it must be good. Right. ;) :rolleyes: ;)

There was a statement about how the numbers don't lie. Actually, the numbers are inanimate data to be manipulated. Just ask any lawyer or accountant. Same with polling questions. Same with simple minds. Perhaps Don was right when he referred to Hollywood as the Garden of Allah (http://www.lyricsfreak.com/d/don-henley/42041.html).

[BillyOmaha]

.....Personally, I don't think the graphic sex is necessary no matter what orientation you are. Did it add to the story or anyone's imagination? .....

Howdy Bob,

Thanks for the post. I just wanted to comment quickly on the portion quoted for the benefit of those that may be considering viewing the movie and, or, allowing their older children to view.

The sex scene between the males is not graphic. Dramatic, strongly and clearly inferred, but not graphic. The female/male "sex" scene is more "exposed", but, for me at least, did not seem gratuitous.

I would agree that they could have cut out all of the sex scenes, gay and straight, and made the movie. It would have been a similar movie, but it would have lacked the impact they were attempting to have.

An example of my point would be when Jodie Foster made the movie "The Accused". IMO a powerful "message" movie regarding rape. When she was asked about the gang rape scene and why she had insisted that she play her character in such a poor light, she said, in essence, that it was important that the viewer saw... and then saw through... her character's actions in order to recognize that what had happened to the character was wrong, regardless of her actions. FWIW, Jodie Foster won a Oscar for that performance.

I will not say that this movie achieved a similar result, but I would say that the they were making an attempt.


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[Macker]

I agree with Matt. I thought about that myself. Some may have an opinion but not wheather it should be presented or not.
My opinion is, it may be a good movie that deserves to be shown but I have no intention on seeing it based on it's content. I don't think others should be disuaded from seeing it but I also don't think theater owners should be disuaded from not showing it if it goes against their personal moral beliefs...As long as it's not the government imposing censorship, the private theater owner should be free to exercise his rights as well.

[meese]

Unfortunately, it's not just the government who can censor things. Any group can force their own agenda on others if they're focused enough to apply pressure in the right places.

Sure theater owners have the right to choose what films to show (assuming they don't totally piss of the film distributors, that is), but some of these same "conscientious" theater owners that chose not to screen Brokeback Mountain did choose to screen Hostel, which is effectively an hour of gratuitous sex and partying followed by an hour of graphic and disturbing torture scenes. Apparently that didn't trip anyone's radar, so it goes on mostly unnoticed.