Need k1200lt experts...(newbie)

[str8_6]

I work for LKQ and we sold a 2005 k1200LT motor to a customer who put it in his 2000 using the 2000 ECU. From what I understand (I could be very wrong), the cams and ECU from the 2005 are different.

less then 1000 miles later customer says engine has a burnt valve on cylinder 2. Could him putting a 2005 motor in a 2000 cause this?

Our engine expert guy seems to think that with the different ecu parameters it could effect engine output which would cause enough heat for the burnt valve. The customers shop says that it would go into limp mode and go rich not being able to cause burnt valve.

Any suggestion? I want a non bias opinion. Much appreciated.

I do not mind issuing him a full refund, but if it is not our fault we will not cover it.

[jzeiler]

I would say that what was done was not a good idea. Now having said that if there was a tight exhaust valve to begin with and the engine ran lean due to the ECU mismatch I would expect a burnt valve. The 05's have higher compression pistons (RS pistons) and larger throttle bodies in addition to different cams and timing gears. Hard to really pin down the cause. Was a valve check done after installing the engine? Were they all in spec? That will tell a lot.

[gbob]

Hello str8_6

I do not THINK the different ECU would burn a single valve if it were the ECU at fault , I would look at the other 3 cylinders ie valves and sparkplugs , looking for a wicked lean condition . My first guess out of the bag would be an vacuum leak on #2 cylinder intake .

Bob G

[str8_6]

That would definitely make sense. We are just trying to weigh the option if its even worth it to tear the engine down.

To me, if its higher compression pistons on a lower compression piston ECU, wouldn't that cause lean conditions?

The engine was not pre inspected before/after install. All other cylinders have good compression which would lead me to want to think it was a bad or going bad valve from the start.

Thanks for the inputs so far.

[dshealey]

That would definitely make sense. We are just trying to weigh the option if its even worth it to tear the engine down.

To me, if its higher compression pistons on a lower compression piston ECU, wouldn't that cause lean conditions?

The engine was not pre inspected before/after install. All other cylinders have good compression which would lead me to want to think it was a bad or going bad valve from the start.

Thanks for the inputs so far.There is an excellent chance that the '05 engine would be damaged by running a '00 ECU! The fuel mapping for the '00 is likely going to cause the '05 engine to run too lean, as the injector timing is mapped for a less efficient intake system. It is the larger amount of air inducted, not the compression that is the culprit. Injector timing is critical to any engine, and modifications to intake systems almost always require re-mapping of the ECU. The injector timing for '00 will not inject enough fuel for the higher air flow of the '05.

Pull the plugs and look for signs of too lean running. Plugs will have a very light tan to white appearance if run too lean. They should be a dark tan to brown color.

[vvk]

I Any suggestion? I want a non bias opinion. Much appreciated.

DAMHIK Too little oil in the sump, could be the cause of 1 burnt valve....

[deanwoolsey]

I'm no expert, but logic tells me that the 2005 motor with the 2000 ECU may be the problem. Basically a CC is a CC. Both engines are 1200 CC in the block. The 2005 has a higher horsepower so that was accomplished with electronic engine management, valve timing, etc. I'm speculating but my guess is that the 2000 computer is firing too slow for the 2005 motor and the late ignition is passing exhaust through the valves before it's all the way burnt. Normally early ignition translates into higher horsepower so I'm guessing the valve train on the 2005 is too fast for the ECU on the 2000. You didn't say how many miles was on the motor but if I dropped a new engine into my bike I would at least check the valves before I rode it, not knowing the history of the engine. On the other hand if I were the customer I would expect you to check the valves before you sold it to me or cover it under warranty if you chose not to. Since neither of you checked it before the problem showed up maybe you should split the difference.

[str8_6]

We compression all of our engines and guarantee all of the to be in good working condition, but the only downfall to that is that we have no proof as we do not keep a record of it.

According to what everyone is saying, i think it would be best if we took it to a 3rd party shop and have them inspect things internally.

You throw higher compression pistons into any engine and leave fuel mapping the same, it would go lean, no doubt about that.

[woodey]

I work for LKQ and we sold a 2005 k1200LT motor to a customer who put it in his 2000 using the 2000 ECU. From what I understand (I could be very wrong), the cams and ECU from the 2005 are different.

less then 1000 miles later customer says engine has a burnt valve on cylinder 2. Could him putting a 2005 motor in a 2000 cause this?

Our engine expert guy seems to think that with the different ecu parameters it could effect engine output which would cause enough heat for the burnt valve. The customers shop says that it would go into limp mode and go rich not being able to cause burnt valve.

Any suggestion? I want a non bias opinion. Much appreciated.

I do not mind issuing him a full refund, but if it is not our fault we will not cover it.

Well not to get into your Business but i am nosy...did you know prior to his purchase that his intention was to put the 2005 engine into a 2000 LT...and what would you guaranty policy be on something like that...to me it sounds like the too things should of never been together and unless your company or a representative of your company told them it would work I do not see your company liable

[str8_6]

Woodey- You make a very good point! That is one of our arguments. We listed it as a 2005 and we clearly state "It might fit other years, but please check with a local dealership for fitment". We put that on all of our bike engines because we don't have interchange info like we do our car engines.

He assumed it would work and now this. We put it on ebay, he bought it.

[str8_6]

I believe this will be a done deal. I called and he now says he has some sort of chip, forgot the name, that allows his ecu to run with the 05 motor. We have no way of disproving this argument so it's done. We are going to refund the guy in full. Thanks for everyone's input. It was greatly appreciated.

[blueknightga6]

I believe this will be a done deal. I called and he now says he has some sort of chip, forgot the name, that allows his ecu to run with the 05 motor. We have no way of disproving this argument so it's done. We are going to refund the guy in full. Thanks for everyone's input. It was greatly appreciated.

I should applaud your customer service. Just think of someone hearing these scenarios:

I bought this engine and it had/got a burnt valve. I told them about it and they told me tough luck.

OR

I bought this engine and it had/got a burnt valve. They looked into into the problem and in a few days got back with me and now I'm getting a refund.

If I were in the market, I'd definately consider patronizing the business in scenario number 2.

[NOGILLS2]

What a nightmare! I would think that not enough research went into the decision to install a 05 in a 00 without considering all the electronic differences involved. I would want to change the electronics also to match the engine.

NOW, I appluad you for biting the bullet on this, you will attract more with sugar than vinegar. The word out, for the way you handled it will say more for the future than saving a few bucks and losing customers

[str8_6]

What a nightmare! I would think that not enough research went into the decision to install a 05 in a 00 without considering all the electronic differences involved. I would want to change the electronics also to match the engine.

NOW, I appluad you for biting the bullet on this, you will attract more with sugar than vinegar. The word out, for the way you handled it will say more for the future than saving a few bucks and losing customers

That is very true. He will probably never do business with us again, but I really do feel bad for the guy. The chip he had was Rhine West. I read up on them and I didn't see anything regarding a chip for use with 05' motor. I just saw a performance chip to enhance the features of the 00' engine.

I am still refunding even after the warranty department told me to refuse the claim.

[str8_6]

UPDATE


As soon as we were going to give in, Rhine West (producer of the chip) emails me and says:

"Peter,
Yes, that swap would produce issues.
We never produced a chip for the 05 LT motors.
The 05 has the updated engine w/more HP from the factory. Control units are different. But if you have the time and $$$ anything is possible.
Jim Adair"

I'm still going to offer a refund, but he has to pay for shipping cost now.

[dshealey]

We compression all of our engines and guarantee all of the to be in good working condition, but the only downfall to that is that we have no proof as we do not keep a record of it.

According to what everyone is saying, i think it would be best if we took it to a 3rd party shop and have them inspect things internally.

You throw higher compression pistons into any engine and leave fuel mapping the same, it would go lean, no doubt about that.As I said earlier, it is not the compression ratio, but the fuel/air ratio. The 2005 model year saw a new set of throttle bodies with larger bore, and changed cam timing, so there is more air pulled into the engine cylinders each cycle, requiring more fuel to keep the ratio proper. With the earlier ECU, the injectors are likely not held open long enough each cycle to inject the proper amount of fuel, thus a lean condition.

[cccpastorjack]

As I said earlier, it is not the compression ratio, but the fuel/air ratio. The 2005 model year saw a new set of throttle bodies with larger bore, and changed cam timing, so there is more air pulled into the engine cylinders each cycle, requiring more fuel to keep the ratio proper. With the earlier ECU, the injectors are likely not held open long enough each cycle to inject the proper amount of fuel, thus a lean condition.


And, as David said, the plugs will tell the tale! I'm betting on a lean condition. It is never a good idea to MISMATCH the ECU and the ENGINE. :D

[dshealey]

UPDATE


As soon as we were going to give in, Rhine West (producer of the chip) emails me and says:

"Peter,
Yes, that swap would produce issues.
We never produced a chip for the 05 LT motors.
The 05 has the updated engine w/more HP from the factory. Control units are different. But if you have the time and $$$ anything is possible.
Jim Adair"

I'm still going to offer a refund, but he has to pay for shipping cost now. I bet you sell no more engines without the statement that they MUST be used with an ECU of the same generation, or to be safe, one of the SAME year as the engine. "Chipping" an ECU should probably void any warranty.

[str8_6]

We actually do state on all of our invoices under the warranty section that the product has to be used for the same application.

The guy lied to us, but we are good people and still offering a refund as long as he ships it on his own term.

These situations suck. I hate arguing with people. It is just not in my nature to yell.