LT riders tend to be liberal or conservative?

[Jerrod Maguire]

Don't need any diatribes or rants just curious as to what LT riders consider themselves to be most of the time. Are you more liberal or conservative on most issues on most days? If you can't pick one... perhaps you should be in politics.

Liberal on most days?

or

Conservative on most days?

[kmurphy165]

Don't need any diatribes or rants just curious as to what LT riders consider themselves to be most of the time. Are you more liberal or conservative on most issues on most days? If you can't pick one... perhaps you should be in politics.

Liberal on most days?

or

Conservative on most days?

I'm with Will Rogers. When the legislature is in session, no man's liberty or property is safe. And you can always tell when a politician of any stripe is lying: is his mouth open.

Suspectin' Karl

[rixchard]

I suspect that if it were any other motorcycle the results would skew even more to the conservitive side

[Jerrod Maguire]

I suspect that if it were any other motorcycle the results would skew even more to the conservitive side

Richard why is that?

[ksailor]

It really depends on the issue: religion; politics; death penalty; music; riding style; alcohol; hunting; gun control; enviromental; what we call HD riders; have I missed any controversial topics??

I'm definately a progressive liberal democratic conservative republican!!

[Jerrod Maguire]

yep... you missed sex orientation and birth control/abortion.

[KBandit]

i think motorcyclists as a group tend to lean toward conservative.

i think of myself as middle of the road. i take it one issue at a time. on various issues i fall in different camps. you can call that wishy-washy of you want, but i call it pragmatic.

the most appalling thing to me is how many people listen to limbaugh or frankin and let one or the other do their thinking for them. it seems as though many americans have lost the ability to think critically for themselves.

even more interesting (to me, anyway) is how the very definition of "conservatism" and "liberalism" has dramatically changed in recent years.

[Hilton]

It seems that as LT riders, we are on average "In the older age bracket" maybe that means we've had more experiences and are therefore hopefully applying our wisdom daily to our day to day life. Does that make me conservative or liberal? Who cares. I think it lets me see the BS quicker and just deal with the issues at hand. I like the saying, " It doesn't matter who you vote for, you always end up with a politician! " Cheers

[Jerrod Maguire]

"it seems as though many americans have lost the ability to think critically for themselves".

That's an interesting statement above, but you can't lose what you never had.

[justincase]

...
i think of myself as middle of the road...
Aren't you worried about getting run over?

[Hilton]

People who stand in the middle of the road risk being run over from both directions. Always liked that saying :-)

[KBandit]

People who stand in the middle of the road risk being run over from both directions. Always liked that saying :-)

it is a pretty silly saying if you think about it.

do you think that one political party or one person has all the answers? do you think democrats or republicans are always right? if so i've got a news bulletin for ya.

i mean ... c'mon. get real.

[nearmisses]

And here comes the truck!. So... I'm sitting hear eating my desert in peace minding my own business and reading the forums and I find this "Survey Liberal or Conservative" and reading Kbandits typical liberal "of him" Limbaugh or frankin (notice where I put the capitals !) clone off hand comments when my girlfriend calls me with the news that a pilot of the helicopter that went down in Iraq today with 2 aboard was a friend of hers' son. Sorry Read no further if you don't want a lengthy diatribe or rant, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNEDFlashback to another time when we could all armchair quarterback along with the news of the day. Then 1993 and the Gulf war and my nephew stationed near the barracks in Saudi and that news. I didn't buy the liberal media mantra then and I still don't! I fought this war more years than most. I was a gun dealer for 25 years... then Clinton got in. I watched in awe what was said and done to the Constitution of this Great Nation. Bush has nothing on him! Am I conservative or liberal? Pretty simple really. To someone of Kbandits philosophy I'm a conservative Right Wing Nutball that follows whatever Limbaugh says. To someone else... well, I'm just an American that believes in this country as they do. I listen to Limbaugh but not to parrot what he says. A friend of mine in 1991 told me I should listen to this guy on the radio because he says "Exactly" what I always say. I did, and he does... although I'm a pitbull and he's a terrier but his bark is getting bigger. We're the majority now and you'll do as WE say for a change, Get used to it. The "so called" hearings last week should have taught the liberals something they just can't seem to get around. You Loose! You can't defeat us because you don't understand us. We're not going to be defeated by the likes of your ilk again. You have no ideas, no solutions yet you're out there merrily proclaiming Bush Lied. To Who? You? Me? I don't think he lied when we were told there were weapons of mass destruction, we HAVE found some, not as many as we like but Iraq is a BIG country! Ever tried to find something and you have no idea where it is? Try it some time. I do, Underwater in zero visibility... and they don't know where they dropped it, duh! I don't think so and God forbid they turn up in Syria, (my guess) used later by terrorist over here in the good old US of A. The Iraqui people were being killed for any reason Saddam thought up. THAT'S EXACTLY what President Bush and our soldiers are fighting for. They, as do I, and a whole lot more Americans than you few Liberal for lack of a better word, believe. They're fighting to keep "future" generations and this one safe from harm. This isn't a political site but a motorcycling site. Some don't appreciate me here and that's fine we have filters and blocks so... turn me off. I can't get thru to you and I don't really care if I do or not. Would there even be a BMWLT site if we were in constant fear the likes of which I don't even want to imagine under say Gore's ah... leadership? Or Kerry's? The turn tail and run expert? I'm a fighter. I keep punchin' till the lifes gone outa me. I speak for the "new" Majority, what you liberals used to call the "silent" majority. You didn't want to hear us then. We were lower than dog spit, now you're where we were! How do I know? Did you SEE Kennedy asking stupid inane questions and be slam dunked to hell and gone? Did you see the Libs holding their heads in their hands? Funny how times change. you say we need to listen to you liberals, we need to be more "Partisan", french I believe for... You Loose!. WHY, you never gave a damn what we thought, told us to shut up constantly. How does it feel, HUH? I, and probably a lot more on this site than you'll ever know (cause they still haven't learned to be as vocal as me but they'll get there) are tired of your constant whining, you're need for trouble free bikes because they cost so much, Bush lied, BMW Rear Ends died! Get over it!. Nothing in this life is free! Not freedom or BMW's, everything has a price. The difference between a liberal and a conservative, we know this is true, you're still smokin' your wacky weed and singing Kum bye ya. Am I mocking you, you betcha! you do it all the time. I learn quickly. Does it make me any more right? No, But it sure "feels" good to quote you guys! And that's whats important, Right?
My heart goes out to those who have lost someone in this war, God be with you. I only hope you can forgive the Liberals their insanity, it's a disease really, like their "Restless Leg Syndrome". One day you so called "Moderates" (can't decide whose side you're on folk) won't have to worry anymore because we "Conservatives" will have fixed the problem despite you're constant whining and horrendous intervention with aiding and comforting the enemy.

[KBandit]

hey brian ... calm down, brother. i see nothing in this thread that attacks conservatives.

take a deep breath. there is room in this country for a variety of political views, including moderates like me.

[meese]

Why force labels or pre-defined positions on people? Just inform yourself as best you can, look into the motives behind the speeches and sound bites, and try and make sense of all the gibberish. Then just live your life as best as you can.

Good thing we're all intelligent, well-reasoned adults here who have no need to get all riled up and start ranting and attacking, right? :)

[motorman587]

Wow, touchy issue, I think I am or I am liberal. Why I guess, if I started listing you would not understand, kind of thread.

[justincase]

And here comes the truck!. So... I'm sitting hear eating my desert in peace minding my own business and reading the forums and I find this "Survey Liberal or Conservative" and reading Kbandits typical liberal "of him" Limbaugh or frankin (notice where I put the capitals !) clone off hand comments when my girlfriend calls me with the news that a pilot of the helicopter that went down in Iraq today with 2 aboard was a friend of hers' son. Sorry Read no further if you don't want a lengthy diatribe or rant, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNEDFlashback to another time when we could all armchair quarterback along with the news of the day. Then 1993 and the Gulf war and my nephew stationed near the barracks in Saudi and that news. I didn't buy the liberal media mantra then and I still don't! I fought this war more years than most. I was a gun dealer for 25 years... then Clinton got in. I watched in awe what was said and done to the Constitution of this Great Nation. Bush has nothing on him! Am I conservative or liberal? Pretty simple really. To someone of Kbandits philosophy I'm a conservative Right Wing Nutball that follows whatever Limbaugh says. To someone else... well, I'm just an American that believes in this country as they do. I listen to Limbaugh but not to parrot what he says. A friend of mine in 1991 told me I should listen to this guy on the radio because he says "Exactly" what I always say. I did, and he does... although I'm a pitbull and he's a terrier but his bark is getting bigger. We're the majority now and you'll do as WE say for a change, Get used to it. The "so called" hearings last week should have taught the liberals something they just can't seem to get around. You Loose! You can't defeat us because you don't understand us. We're not going to be defeated by the likes of your ilk again. You have no ideas, no solutions yet you're out there merrily proclaiming Bush Lied. To Who? You? Me? I don't think he lied when we were told there were weapons of mass destruction, we HAVE found some, not as many as we like but Iraq is a BIG country! Ever tried to find something and you have no idea where it is? Try it some time. I do, Underwater in zero visibility... and they don't know where they dropped it, duh! I don't think so and God forbid they turn up in Syria, (my guess) used later by terrorist over here in the good old US of A. The Iraqui people were being killed for any reason Saddam thought up. THAT'S EXACTLY what President Bush and our soldiers are fighting for. They, as do I, and a whole lot more Americans than you few Liberal for lack of a better word, believe. They're fighting to keep "future" generations and this one safe from harm. This isn't a political site but a motorcycling site. Some don't appreciate me here and that's fine we have filters and blocks so... turn me off. I can't get thru to you and I don't really care if I do or not. Would there even be a BMWLT site if we were in constant fear the likes of which I don't even want to imagine under say Gore's ah... leadership? Or Kerry's? The turn tail and run expert? I'm a fighter. I keep punchin' till the lifes gone outa me. I speak for the "new" Majority, what you liberals used to call the "silent" majority. You didn't want to hear us then. We were lower than dog spit, now you're where we were! How do I know? Did you SEE Kennedy asking stupid inane questions and be slam dunked to hell and gone? Did you see the Libs holding their heads in their hands? Funny how times change. you say we need to listen to you liberals, we need to be more "Partisan", french I believe for... You Loose!. WHY, you never gave a damn what we thought, told us to shut up constantly. How does it feel, HUH? I, and probably a lot more on this site than you'll ever know (cause they still haven't learned to be as vocal as me but they'll get there) are tired of your constant whining, you're need for trouble free bikes because they cost so much, Bush lied, BMW Rear Ends died! Get over it!. Nothing in this life is free! Not freedom or BMW's, everything has a price. The difference between a liberal and a conservative, we know this is true, you're still smokin' your wacky weed and singing Kum bye ya. Am I mocking you, you betcha! you do it all the time. I learn quickly. Does it make me any more right? No, But it sure "feels" good to quote you guys! And that's whats important, Right?
My heart goes out to those who have lost someone in this war, God be with you. I only hope you can forgive the Liberals their insanity, it's a disease really, like their "Restless Leg Syndrome". One day you so called "Moderates" (can't decide whose side you're on folk) won't have to worry anymore because we "Conservatives" will have fixed the problem despite you're constant whining and horrendous intervention with aiding and comforting the enemy.
Yeah, what he said!!!

Great job. Now let the flames begin...

[TandemCyclist]

How about a couple paragraphs in that rant. Maybe, you should have gone to a liberal arts school.

[KBandit]

Yeah, what he said!!!

Great job. Now let the flames begin...

no flames from me. the question that started this thread was a simple one. how we got from there to here is a complete mystery. i assume you guys are pissed off about sumthin. so ... rant on.

[dshealey]

How about a couple paragraphs in that rant.

I tried to read it, got about 1/3rd through it and had to stop. My eyes hurt trying to keep my place. Gave up.

[dshealey]

I am really surprised at how this simple yes no question riled up some! Holy Cow! Guess some are just sitting in front of their computer waiting for any excuse to blow up and fulfill their day.

I think one reason the high percentage seems to be conservative is that the age group of LT riders tends to be rather high up in years. Me included. :D

We have had time to go through our liberal stages, usually starting in high school when we are going to change the world, only to find that liberalism does not, and cannot work for the majority.

Yes, I am about as conservative as they come! :D :D

[rixchard]

I don't know.

[rixchard]

I would love to have read your rant, but doggon it man, you need to get some paragragh breaks.

[rixchard]

Speaking of defintions, I was struggling with that when trying to figure out how to answer Jartrod's question. So far the best partial definition ( and a poor one at that) I could come up with was
conservitive = I, me, mine and liberal = us,we,ours.

[KBandit]

I think one reason the high percentage seems to be conservative is that the age group of LT riders tends to be rather high up in years. Me included. :D

We have had time to go through our liberal stages, usually starting in high school when we are going to change the world, only to find that liberalism does not, and cannot work for the majority.

Yes, I am about as conservative as they come! :D :D

i think there is some truth to what you say (depending how you define "liberalism."). the very young tend to be extremely liberal, but as they get older they tend to become more conservative, because it removes obstacles from the path of ambition. i have found this to be true in my own case.

but at a certain point i think you tend to go back the other way. as you retire, are on a fixed income, and begin to have health concerns, you begin to appreciate social benefits more. that's why the AARP tends to be somewhat left-leaning.

of course this is not true in every case. retire rich and you are not likely to give a $hit about those forced to choose between medicine and food.

[Chick]

that's why the AARP tends to be somewhat left-leaning.

"Somewhat" left leaning ??????????????? :confused: When is the last time you noticed the AARP in anything but a fullfledged 90 degree angle toward the left?

Nearmisses, I am sorry to hear about your friend's loss and I understood your psot completely.

God bless:

[justincase]

no flames from me. the question that started this thread was a simple one. how we got from there to here is a complete mystery. i assume you guys are pissed off about sumthin. so ... rant on.
Where else would you think a topic like this would go?

This is one of the main issues dividing the country. Almost everything comes down to Dems vs Cons, white vs black, religion vs no_religion. You know what the hot buttons are.

[KBandit]

Where else would you think a topic like this would go?

being a mature adult (MOST of the time) i assumed it would be a calm discussion.

where did YOU think it would go?

BTW ... i did not start this thread. just so's ya know.

[NCoe]

Speaking of defintions, I was struggling with that when trying to figure out how to answer Jartrod's question. So far the best partial definition ( and a poor one at that) I could come up with was
conservitive = I, me, mine and liberal = us,we,ours.Yet, another ad hominen attack on conservatives.

[Jerrod Maguire]

C'mon guys... this was a simple question... liberal or conservative? I should have known what the answer was by the age bracket of most of the LT riders. Sorry about posting this one.

[rixchard]

Not at all. Conservatives seem to place more emphasis on the individual, self reliance and ownership (i,me, mine). It is not a slam, it is an observation It is also wrapped in the cloak of generalization as are all observations about memes.

[rixchard]

Don't be, I think it is an interesting question. Why we think what we think always fascinates me and politics and religion are are some of the most irrational thoughts we have

[meese]

I made it all the way through, not really sure why.

[meese]

Where else would you think a topic like this would go?

This is one of the main issues dividing the country. Almost everything comes down to Dems vs Cons, white vs black, religion vs no_religion. You know what the hot buttons are.
And why does it have to be us vs. them at all? I didn't vote because I try to weigh every issue individually, and don't really see the obsession with labels.

It still amazes me that people will pick up on a specific comment, and then force the poster into some pre-defined category (usually one which they happen to despise). That is one of the main issues dividing this country.

Personally, I'd hoped this discussion would stay reasonable and interesting, but I'm unfortunately not surprised that someone took it way too far. Oh well, at least no one jumped on the bait.

[pkpr1998]

No comments here, but I did vote! Have a good day y'all!

[TandemCyclist]

I did not initially vote. After reading this thread the different camps, for the purpose of this survey, were displayed. I voted for the more rational of the two.

[NevadaNez]

An old liberal who leans moderate and fiscally conservative the more i age. ya know--like a fine wine, I'm mellowing in the cellar.....prolly has something to do with analyzing and recommending governmental policy all those years....

I did answer "liberal "to the question tho.....but i can tell ya that i'm hardly a liberal when compared to the way i was at 20 (26 years ago, now)

And ya know, i do find it somewhat amusing it only took about six years for the current leadership--you know, the "Moral Majority"-- to plummet into the mire of power induced corruption, sleaze and scandal. :rolleyes:

Well, ya know what they say:

power corrupts and absolute power corrupts, absolutely.

peace, love, and bobby sherman!:p
(you old hippies oughta recognize this)

[KBandit]

An old liberal who leans moderate and fiscally conservative the more i age. ya know--like a fine wine, I'm mellowing in the cellar.....prolly has something to do with analyzing and recommending governmental policy all those years....

I did answer "liberal "to the question tho.....but i can tell ya that i'm hardly a liberal when compared to the way i was at 20 (26 years ago, now)

And ya know, i do find it somewhat amusing it only took about six years for the current leadership--you know, the "Moral Majority"-- to plummet into the mire of power induced corruption, sleaze and scandal. :rolleyes:

Well, ya know what they say:

power corrupts and absolute power corrupts, absolutely.

peace, love, and bobby sherman!:p
(you old hippies oughta recognize this)

hey, nez ... you and me, brother ... we seem to have a closely allied political outlook. good post.

i didn't vote in the poll, though, because as worded i didn't feed into either choice.

[NevadaNez]

hey, nez ... you and me, brother ... we seem to have a closely allied political outlook. good post.

i didn't vote in the poll, though, because as worded i didn't feed into either choice.

Thanks much, KBandit! BTW, I understand your hesitation with the poll and herein lies the biggest problem with constructing a good one--how to word it so that you elicit completely unbiased responses. Gadzillions of dollars have been spent trying to figure this out, and gadzillions more have been spent trying to figure out ways in which to skew that data!
Anyway--i came here for the bike chats and would rather spend my time yakking about the things that bring us the greatest pleasure in our lives instead of the things that seem only to inflame, agitate and irritate us in those lives!
Glad to know i made a friend along the way, too!

[KBandit]

Thanks much, KBandit! BTW, I understand your hesitation with the poll and herein lies the biggest problem with constructing a good one--how to word it so that you elicit completely unbiased responses. Gadzillions of dollars have been spent trying to figure this out, and gadzillions more have been spent trying to figure out ways in which to skew that data!
Anyway--i came here for the bike chats and would rather spend my time yakking about the things that bring us the greatest pleasure in our lives instead of the things that seem only to inflame, agitate and irritate us in those lives!
Glad to know i made a friend along the way, too!

you forgot the final gadzillion ... the one spent to launch a massive PR campaign to dispell the inescapable conclusions of the research. LOL!

cheers ...

[NevadaNez]

A-freakin-men!!!

:d

[meese]

It didn't take six years for the plummet, but it did take about that long for most folks to figure it out. Still I wished they'd have figured it out before November. :(

[NevadaNez]

It didn't take six years for the plummet, but it did take about that long for most folks to figure it out. Still I wished they'd have figured it out before November. :(
Indeed. No argument from me here, Meese--you're right on the money.

[meese]

Indeed. No argument from me here, Meese--you're right on the money.Some think so, some disagree, sometimes it depends on the topic. Maybe we could have a poll on that? :D

Unfortunately, the whole system has plummeted, but I can't say there's a realistic alternative to pursue either. But we've already covered that topic, many times over.

Anyway--i came here for the bike chats and would rather spend my time yakking about the things that bring us the greatest pleasure in our lives . . .Agreed. Or doing those things. Mid-60's and sunny all week. It's good to be home. :D

[BillyOmaha]

...just curious as to what LT riders consider themselves to be most of the time?....

Howdy Jerrod,

In thinking about the question, I was reminded a something I heard about cleanliness and realized that, with a bit of a twist, it would apply to your question.

Anyone more liberal than me is a Liberal and anyone more conservative than me is Conservative. So, I must be a Moderate. ;)



.

[patrick2000]

[Ouote] "Anyone more liberal than me is a Liberal and anyone more conservative than me is Conservative. So, I must be a Moderate." [Quote]

Bill,

In the the U.S. the idea of "more liberal" or "more conservative" is rigidly confined to similar ideological ideas that stymie the consensus of many. An inaccurately named ,two party, system places all ideas at the center of the much broader political spectrum. Ironically, most people fall outside this limited political range of latitude and often feel unrepresented by the what has evolved to become a, two part, single party system. The result is a false sense of democracy and the growth of a political institution that claims a separation of powers is in their (the masses) best interest. Unfortunately, this separation of powers acts in opposition to a majority consensus and works to protect the interests of the elite. This why many of us cringe at the inaccuracies of simplified political labels. In essence, labeling attempts to attach stereotypical ideologies to individuals based on particular view(s) . This erroneous simplicity puts us all at the center of a much more diverse political spectrum. It is my opinion that all individuals are much more complicated in their opinions than this system allows and therefore cannot be packaged into two, or three politically centrist ideologies. This condition may explain voter apathy in the last few decades.

[BillyOmaha]

"Anyone more liberal than me is a Liberal and anyone more conservative than me is Conservative. So, I must be a Moderate."

Bill,

In the the U.S. the idea of "more liberal" or "more conservative" is rigidly confined to similar ideological ideas that stymie the consensus of many. An inaccurately named ,two party, system places all ideas at the center of the much broader political spectrum. Ironically, most people fall outside this limited political range of latitude and often feel unrepresented by the what has evolved to become a, two part, single party system. The result is a false sense of democracy and the growth of a political institution that claims a separation of powers is in their (the masses) best interest. Unfortunately, this separation of powers acts in opposition to a majority consensus and works to protect the interests of the elite. This why many of us cringe at the inaccuracies of simplified political labels. In essence, labeling attempts to attach stereotypical ideologies to individuals based on particular view(s) . This erroneous simplicity puts us all at the center of a much more diverse political spectrum. It is my opinion that all individuals are much more complicated in their opinions than this system allows and therefore cannot be packaged into two, or three politically centrist ideologies. This condition may explain voter apathy in the last few decades.

Ummmm.... so Patrick, you're a Moderate too? ;)

I think that the system of government we have sucks! It just sucks less than any other form of government (paraphrasing someone famous that I'm too lazy to look up right now).

The two party system works because it operates like a pendulum. As the party in power acheives more and more of its agenda the results tend to be further and further away from the moderate majority of the population. The party out of power moves to the center to garner support from the moderate majority. When the out party has moved center enough the moderate majority votes out the extremists and votes in the moderates. The pendulum then swings the other way.

Simplistic? Perhaps, but I believe it's accurate.



.

[meese]

The two party system works because it operates like a pendulum.Agreed.

http://www.bmwlt.com/gallery/files/1/7/8/Shirt.jpg

[BillyOmaha]

Agreed.

http://www.bmwlt.com/gallery/files/1/7/8/Shirt.jpg

But Ken, you should have read the rest of the post ;)
When the out party has moved center enough the moderate majority votes out the extremists and votes in the moderates.

If the Dem's can ignore the extreme left of the party and move a more to the center, then they've got a chance. As much as I dislike Hillary, she's an able politician and is posturing toward the center.


.

[patrick2000]

Bill,

I agree the U.S. system has stood the test of time and has proven durable in the long run.
The point I was trying to emphasize was the ,assumed, erroneous alignments with personal political ideology. With political elites clustered in the center it is impossible to produce a measurable difference in the results of what appear ,as conflicting policies. This propaganda works to appease the people by insinuating they have some sort of control over the outcome. Individualism and alternative political perspectives are suffocated by offering a minimum of choices with which to align. On the broad ,latitude, spectrum the left and right ideologies exist, but are seldom adhered to exclusively by individuals. In essence many folks are a degree of both left and right, and some may be disassociated, as the left/right example in itself is confined to black white, or gray ideas. However, individual views on certain issues, may be easier to define if the left/right analysis is omitted, hence the need to reconsider the labeling of individuals into a particular category on any specific issue.

[meese]

I did read the rest of it, actually. And I know that Bush came of as far more centered in the first election, and managed to stay fairly centered in the second, at least until after the votes were counted. I remember one of the biggest complaints in the 2000 campaign was that Bush and Gore were really just two sides of the same coin. How right we were then, and how wrong. The fact that there wasn't a clear winner there shows how most people really couldn't tell the difference.

And the pendulum theory is why someone like Pat Robertson or Jesse Jackson could never win. They're just too far out there to be taken seriously, except by those few who are well beyond reasonable themselves.

I agree the Dems blew it in 2004. They could have done a lot better at showing their differences and advantages, instead of just assuming the public would make the "obvious" choice. Kerry just didn't have much going for him besides "I'm not Bush," which almost worked.

Besides, Hillary has said repeatedly that she won't run. :) Actually, I don't think she's the best choice even if she did decide to run. Besides carrying lots of her own baggage (as well as some of Bill's), I'm just not sure the majority is ready to accept a female candidate. As referenced in another poll, I have less issue with gender than with experience and actions. Unfortunately, I think far too many people will focus on the gender issue above all else.

Either way, it'll be interesting.

[meese]

Well put, Patrick. Our choices really don't offer all that much choice.

Remember Ross Perot? Regardless of his abilities, he at least brought in a fresh perspective. But even that was squashed quickly, as it just didn't fit into the tightly wrapped package that is Washington.

And yeah, far too many people are far to quick to force others into a predefined mold. It's human nature to quickly asses things you don't understand and categorize them as friend or foe. But it's not always the smartest move, or even correct.

But such is the system we live under.

[patrick2000]

Meese,

Undoubtedly a new perspective would be refreshing. In recent years the media has done a great job of depicting the government actors as polarized. However, a minimal amount of research will reveal how the media stretch the issue to make like actors appear different. If one approaches the issue from an optimizing point of view the score cards are about equal. On the other hand if individuals choose not to research their candidates then they are limited to a satisficing approach in voting behavior. In this model a narrow criteria is sufficient to appease the voter and , decision logic, takes a back seat to emotions.

The "predefined mold" you speak of seems to be a part of today's culture. It could be argued that it's human nature to categorize, but I've never bought into that idea. I think your'e rational of categorizing, as " friend or foe" is accurate, as security is the concern. I always find it interesting when people meet for the first time and go through the ritual posing regarding , job, ethnicity, geographical location, sexual identity, education, income and family structure in the hope that they can somehow package the individual into a category that they recognize as either safe , or unsafe. Ironically , humans seem to have lost the ability to trust their intuition and have resorted to a host of ,inaccurate, measuring criteria. In recent years the common methods practised have spread into politics. Sadly, the dynamics of assessing individual political alignment is yet another erroneous evaluation device.

[dandoble]

Kbandit needs to chill a little. You are much too sensitive to others replies to your personal political responses. Perhaps take life a little less seriously. No philosophical justification is required when other people respond to your comments. A simple conservative or liberal would have been fine. The middle of the road comment conjured up a number of humorous responses that could be interpreted two ways. These are jokes not a criticism. You are reading too much into responses and if others are serious with their responses let sarcasm bounce off. Try not to get you blood pressure up. We still love you.

[walilisseu]

Conservatively liberal or Liberally conservative :D ???

[kapod2t]

even more interesting (to me, anyway) is how the very definition of "conservatism" and "liberalism" has dramatically changed in recent years.

I agree whole heartedly, but what also amazes me is how the media can distort those two words to suit their own ideals.

e.g. Gorbachev was a liberal for wanting to end communism but Reagan was a conservative for wanting to end communism. Huh?

Have you ever heard anyone in the media use the words "left wing liberal?" How many times have you heard the term "right wing conservative?" Google it and you'll be amazed at the difference in times of usage of each.

[KBandit]

Kbandit needs to chill a little. You are much too sensitive to others replies to your personal political responses. Perhaps take life a little less seriously. No philosophical justification is required when other people respond to your comments. A simple conservative or liberal would have been fine. The middle of the road comment conjured up a number of humorous responses that could be interpreted two ways. These are jokes not a criticism. You are reading too much into responses and if others are serious with their responses let sarcasm bounce off. Try not to get you blood pressure up. We still love you.

is this where we hug and kiss and stuff? LOL!

seriously ... i don't know what led you to think i was upset, but i can assure you i was not. i never sweat the small stuff.

dang, i thought this thread was dead. that'll teach me.

[JMeese]

This is a ridders web site and what ever you feel find a better country to live in move there then tell us about it so we can also My personal feelings would be to stay away from the subject and stick to the LT subject which we all sort of agree on and not to ruin the web site with all the B.S. we hear and see on TV if you were not there to see it yourself you don't know the whole story on any thing all the news is edited and you see what they want to show you most not worth watching.
Ride in the FREE country and enjoy it while you can you won't be here forever. Life is short
J

[KBandit]

This is a ridders web site and what ever you feel find a better country to live in move there then tell us about it so we can also My personal feelings would be to stay away from the subject and stick to the LT subject which we all sort of agree on and not to ruin the web site with all the B.S. we hear and see on TV if you were not there to see it yourself you don't know the whole story on any thing all the news is edited and you see what they want to show you most not worth watching.
Ride in the FREE country and enjoy it while you can you won't be here forever. Life is short
J

are you related to ken?

[meese]

are you related to ken?
Not that I'm aware of . . .

[KBandit]

Not that I'm aware of . . .

you mean your family is not originally from clyde, ohio?

[Chick]

I thought Ken was one of them Ohio buckeyes. :D


Best definition I ever heard on what a buckeye was = a worthless nut. :rolleyes:

[KBandit]

i'm a former worthless nut ... canton, ohio, babeee! snow aplenty.

[meese]

you mean your family is not originally from clyde, ohio?
My Grandma thought we were related to Ed Meese in the 80's, but I think she just wanted to be related to someone famous. The funny thing is, my Grandpa was orphaned young and after wandering the US railroads during the depression and digging dinosaur bones in Utah, he ended up back in Chicago where some family friends took him in. Out of respect for all they had done for him he took their last name. He's gone now, but my Grandma is in her 90's and still loves to talk about the old times. Come to think of it I need to ride out to Arkansas and see her again.

What was the original topic again? :)

[waycoa]

Just looking at ye olde Family Tree, should be fairly conservative. Born in Provo, Utah to Canadian folks whose pioneering ancestors pushed a handcart across the USA (big long story there). Salad days were the sixties when i picked up lots of bad habits, which prolly make me way coastal (not the same as way postal).

[Dunny75]

I think many people are confused about the term conservative. It doesn't mean reserved or taciturn. It means that where ever possible, matters of personal freedom and choice should remain just that, my personal freedom and my personal choice. With that however goes the correlary. It's my responsibility and I pay the consequences for my actions. If there is a doubt as to whether an issue is one of personal choice or govermental obligation, the matter should always default to one of personal choice.

[meese]

I have a slightly different definition of conservative. I think it has to do more with trying to maintain the old ways, and a resistance to change. Liberal tends to point out the faults with the current system, and to use change to try and correct those faults.

Neither side gets it quite right, as we have to balance what has worked well in the past with the things that don't work. And there's no way for everyone to agree on exactly what things work and what don't.

Besides, many conservatives not only resist change, but try and oppress those who strive for it, or who do things differently. And many liberals push change more for the sake of change, without really understanding the effects of what they're doing.

I agree with personal choice and the corresponding consequences, but does that not also apply to gender issues like gay marriage? After all, any couple should be free to pursue their own happiness without interference. And while I believe everyone has the right to affordable, quality health care, I don't think sneaking across the border and working under the table gives you a free pass.

In truth, most issues are far more complicated and have more sides than simply conservative or liberal. We should be encouraged to examine each issue independently, and make up our own minds. But simple labels make better sound bites for the mostly uncaring masses, so we're often reduced to the barest of "facts" designed to lead us in a particular direction. And even then the majority simply doesn't care about most things, unless they can see a direct personal benefit or immediate disadvantage. That's closer to the truth than any label we can come up with.

[fuel007one]

I am a Conservative. Proud of it actually.

Patrick, your posts are thorough and thoughtful.

You will have a choice in 2008 to select:

(1) Republican
(2) Democrat
(3) Anybody else you wish to vote for

(1) or (2) will win.

See ya at the ballot box (AGAIN!)

[patrick2000]

I am a Conservative. Proud of it actually.

Patrick, your posts are thorough and thoughtful.

You will have a choice in 2008 to select:

(1) Republican
(2) Democrat
(3) Anybody else you wish to vote for

(1) or (2) will win.

See ya at the ballot box (AGAIN!)

Dale,

Thank your for your kind comments. I think we can call this thread officially dead, I hope.

Now, do you want to sell your 70s Honda Trail 50? I 've wanted one for years, as that is what I started riding on. Unbreakable and fun.

Patrick.

[fuel007one]

I have not thought of selling it yet Patrick. It was the bike that I started with too and, after dragging it around for years, I had it completely rebuilt to stock/better than stock specs by a guy in California who made the Austin Powers Mini's, Aerosmith guys, etc before I moved back to Tennessee.

Will let you know if I do though cuz it is used mostly as something to look at....

[patrick2000]

I have not thought of selling it yet Patrick. It was the bike that I started with too and, after dragging it around for years, I had it completely rebuilt to stock/better than stock specs by a guy in California who made the Austin Powers Mini's, Aerosmith guys, etc before I moved back to Tennessee.

Will let you know if I do though cuz it is used mostly as something to look at....

Thanks Dale.

You are lucky to have such a jewel from the past.