Downshifting During Emergency Braking

[DaveDragon]

Downshifting During Emergency Braking (http://davedragon.rilysi.com/2008/11/downshifting-during-emergency-braking.html)

Click the link to read the post.http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Tom1200]

If you like that reading here is some stuff on braking and accidents. I think this also says a lot of ABS even though it isn't about ABS.

The only reason to down shift in an emergency would be if you get to the end and need to pull away for some reason but lets face it. We don't practice enough or train everyday to do this correctly. When you get scared you hit the bakes and the 2 secs you have isn't enough time to do much else.

http://www.motorcycle-accidents.com/pages/stats.html

[ez_rdr55]

“Down shift during emergency braking”; yeah right. If you have time to down shift you’re not really in an emergency situation. I took the advanced MSF course and was not impressed. I asked a question about trail braking and I got the deer in the headlight look from both the “instructors”. They also demanded that I brake with all four fingers. I was on a CBR600RR that requires at most two fingers to lockup the front brake. If you ask me some of what they’re teaching is out dated.

[joegottberg]

In a panic, I've always thought about downshifting, but never could "coordinate it" with the rest of my actions.

I always fully depress the clutch, apply the brakes as hard as the situation allows and look--look--look for a safe way out and (non-impact) place to point her.

If it is just a "quick stop" without the "panic", I'll downshift.

Thanks for the safety update.

Joe

[RonKMiller]

WOW - I can't believe they teach that. :rolleyes:

There is not a human on earth who can afford the luxury of multi-tasking THREE things at once in a full blown panic stop: Pull in the clutch, downshift AND - oh yeah - grab the brakes. Why not just make a phone call to 911 while you're at it? :D Who the hell cares what gear you're in AFTER you've just avoided a crash??

The idea of downshifting throws yet another potentially catastrophic element into the mix - the rear wheel locking up! :crazy:

As Dave sez: keep those two fingers resting on top of the front brake lever ALL THE TIME. The difference between hitting something and NOT hitting something is rather - um - large...

I practice half a dozen full blown panic stops twice a year in an empty parking lot with fresh pavement:

1. It improves "muscle memory" so that the response is more or less automatic.

2. It gives you confidence that you can maintain directional control.

3. It is actually good for the brakes - scrubbing off cementite inclusions deposited on the rotors which dramatically reduce braking performance.

4. Its FUN engaging the ABS, except I HAVE lost a few fillings! :D

[shuster]

Last year I took the MSF Training class and this is one of the skills they tought us. I recommend as they taught us starting the exercise in second gear at about 25 MPH and as the comfort factor rises take the speed and gear up. I still practice it. It is good to be in first gear when you come to the stop in case you have to perform another manover...like getting the heck out of the way. Once you feel comfortable with the stops practice quick starts to the left, right and straight away. Should you want to take it to the next level...throw a 2X4 on the road in the path of the exercise. Keep in mind you must throttle-up for the front tire to get up over the 2X4...

Or you could just attend a local MSF training class and use their bike to experiment. I recommend this class to all folks as I really enjoyed it.
Good luck

[Bob1200rtc1]

I think that your looking at this from the perspective that braking is the only thing you need to do to avoid the accident. What if you need to maneuver after you brake hard to avoid the accident? You might need power to pull the maneuver off. When I raced dirt bikes 30 years ago, I always down shifted under hard braking to be in the right gear so I had power to accelerate. I do the same on my street bike today.

[RonKMiller]

I think that your looking at this from the perspective that braking is the only thing you need to do to avoid the accident. What if you need to maneuver after you brake hard to avoid the accident? You might need power to pull the maneuver off. When I raced dirt bikes 30 years ago, I always down shifted under hard braking to be in the right gear so I had power to accelerate. I do the same on my street bike today.

99% of the time on the street braking is the ONLY thing you need to do proficiently. That's why I advocate practicing it until it is second nature.

You can take all the classes and instruction in the world but you can't think or maneuver your way out of an accident most of the time. You CAN stop short if you know what to do.

[NCrider]

Didn't read the article as I'm one of those add types- I don't click links or read posts that are more than a few paragraphs long.

But from the jist of the conversation, I get that it is recommended to downshift while braking, even in emergency situations.

With that, I have not had a reason to do a full lock-up but have come very close, and I do downshift as I brake. It can become second nature, and I agree that the dangers not necessarily over just because you braked and avoided a collision. You're not safe until you are back in control and out of harms way.

I don't know how easily it would come to downshift and brake in a full panic stop, but I believe it can be done... most of the time. I can think of instances where it wouldn't matter, but those scenarios in my head don't end well anyway.

EDIT: Hey, I just found the spell check. Did you guys know there is a spell check on here? :histerica

[WildBil]

I humbly disagree and think that Dave and the professional riders who tested it got it right. Downshifting, matching engine speed to gear changes while trying not to hit that wall/truck/log/oil/slick? Sure, go ahead, add another 9-12 feet to the stop. Not.

And one way or another, you are what you practice, not what you think. I am certain that you can get very, very good at simultaneous braking in and downshifting with practice. I am just not sure you can ever do better that engaging the ABS to the max when that emergency hits. At least that is what the table reads, and my guess is they practiced.

[Moot]

After I read this thread, I went out, got on my bike and tried a couple of panic stops. Of course since I planned them I was not actually in panic mode, but what I found was that grabbing the clutch and brake at the same time and downshifitng while braking was so ingrained after all these years, that it was a conscious mental exercise not to clutch and downshift simultaneously. One of the author's points is that you do not need the distraction of downshifting while braking. However, if it is second nature to simultaneoulsy grab a hand full clutch and brake, then NOT doing so is what requires focus. Again, in a true panic situation, who knows. But this was the result of my simulation an hour or two ago.

[saddleman]

My bike doesn't shift worth a darn once stopped from 5th to 1st. So when I have to grab a hand full of brake and know i'm going to come any where near a full stop it's brake , clutch in & downshift. And I don't let the clutch out between downshifts

[mwnahas]

I down shit all the time per habit, but in an emergency, if I don't get it into first I'm not going to worry about it. The worry is the stop first. I have been glad this thing has power assist ABS. They teach the least common denominator. I say, learn to use the most your equipment has to offer, and take every advantage.

[bowlesj]

My take on this is a rider is not really a "rider", and are not one with their machine until just about every decelerating maneuver is accompanied by a downshift. I took the MSF advanced course last year and agree with the instructors that one should be in first gear when arriving at rest.

I feel that your advice Dave, of not shifting until stopped is ill advised. True, many, probably most, riders can't do it without thinking about it. Therefore the attention payed to shifting may be lost in braking. What I would like to say to that, as well as other comments that are made concerning "thinking" about head position, knee position, pushing or pulling on what bar, is that maybe a bunch of riders shouldn't be riding at all, they're just buying their time.

I'm here to tell you, driving a vehicle needs to be 2nd nature, the operator should be one with the vehicle.

I have had many real panic stops, and because it is 1st nature with me to grab all brakes, clutch, start pounding down on the shift lever and steering all at one time, that I can not imagine any other correct way to complete a panic stop.

What is interesting in my approach to a panic stop is the use of the rear brake. I never use the rear brake during normal operation. However, in panic impact situations, or miscalculated stops in reduced traction conditions, both brakes are instantly on.

Again, I feel it is bad advice to advocate against downshifting. It's just click, click, click, click and sometimes one more click, if riding your other lighter bike. You may not even get all the way to first by the time you come to a stop, but you've tried.

If the Canucks in that test couldn't reach the same stopping figures as with the clutch disengaged they should go back to school. I am associated with several "professional" riders that can't ride a lick.

"It's all about the stopping, anyone can accelerate hard" - John Bowles

[RonKMiller]

"I never use the rear brake during normal operation."

I don't get it. :confused:

Why would you ever give up 10% of your braking performance at any time?

Granted, it ain't much, but with ABS it is effective.

The ONLY time I was EVER taught to NEVER use the rear brake was at Keith Code's Superbike school. Then again, we were NOT allowed to use the brakes at all during the first day of training.

[bowlesj]

The ONLY time I was EVER taught to NEVER use the rear brake was at Keith Code's Superbike school. Then again, we were NOT allowed to use the brakes at all during the first day of training.

That's it exactly, and the "pace" is a wonderful thing. I could have been an instructor for Keith Code, I was a WERA riders school instructor. In fact, when I was active on the track, I could lap my brother in 10 laps of practice using no brakes at all, but he never was a contender. Some day if we ride together I'll show you how much your 10% won't help you keep up.:)
I'm not much for the slow school stuff, if it's done at 100+ mph, sign me up.

Oh yes, and that includes the LEO evasion's I've been involved in.:rotf:

There, that oughta' bring Joe out of hiding.

I love you though Ron, you're an aviation hound. We really do stick together.

[gpolakow]

Well, this is a no brainer. Nothing should distract you at all from an emergency braking situation, certainly not downshifting just so, if you end up in first when you're stopped, you can move right away. Dumb.

[rattler50]

No way you could downshift in a full throttle PANIC stop. What they are talking about is more like an emergency or unexpected stop. MSF is big on keeping your bike in a gear to match your speed........... :)

[DaveDragon]

It's so nice to read a thread about actual motorcyclinghttp://www.bmwlt.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Stixx]

I downshift and brake simultaneously at all times so I assume a "panic" stop would be a matter of fact for me personally. Having raced formula cars it is and has always been a reflex. A learned reflex takes practice.

That said there have and will be situations that demand a lot of braking with out a downshift especially at high speed but the downshifting immediatly following the emergency part of the braking will naturally follow.

The key word is panic. I don't believe in panicking. Anyone who actually panics by definition is not thinking clearly. Know ones machine , what it is capable of and then execute on what you practice over and over.

Sounds great, right >? Well I acknowlege it is easier to tell than to do and that is why the need for practice is so great. Practicing emergency manuevers , in my view, can avoid PANIC stops and maneuvers. Knowing ones equipment is essential to making emergency maneuvers well and NOT panicking.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

If I am not in first gear when I stop after any decceleration it is because I am not riding well and have allowed myself to be distracted.

While we are on the subject , I should mention too, that lately because of spline failures in dry clutches I've been shifting to neutral at every stop light as it supposedly saves stress on the splines and premature clutch wear.

I do this but don't like it. When I first started back riding after a break I always position my bike with an escape route for avoiding rear ending at stop lights. That requires the bike be in first to go into escape mode. So
there is and will be confilicts of "rule" no matter what we know to be best and you just have to decide what your odds are and go with the plan that helps you stay in one piece in this hostile to MC environment we ride.

[bikebum]

The key word is panic. I don't believe in panicking. Anyone who actually panics by definition is not thinking clearly. Know ones machine , what it is capable of and then execute on what you practice over and over.

Ever had a deer to pop right out in front of you with no warning while you are relaxed and cruising at 70mph? I think anyone will "panic" under those circumstances and doubt very many will take time to downshift. I don't know how to practice for this situation.

[ez_rdr55]

"I never use the rear brake during normal operation."

I don't get it. :confused:

Why would you ever give up 10% of your braking performance at any time?

Granted, it ain't much, but with ABS it is effective.

The ONLY time I was EVER taught to NEVER use the rear brake was at Keith Code's Superbike school. Then again, we were NOT allowed to use the brakes at all during the first day of training.


I agree with you Ron. Even with linked ABS your stoping distance WILL be less if you use both brakes. This was demonstrated quite effectively at the BMW dealership in Sturgis during the rally. 10% or even 1% just might be the difference between riding home or not.

[jzeiler]

While we are on the subject , I should mention too, that lately because of spline failures in dry clutches I've been shifting to neutral at every stop light as it supposedly saves stress on the splines and premature clutch wear.


Did I miss something? I have not heard of any of this on LT's - is it from some other platform? I don't see how the spline is stressed by holding the clutch in - it is not even moving at that point.

[DaveDragon]

John Pretti (Motorman587) had us do max braking exercises during his Handling School at STC.

Just front, Just Rear and then Both demonstrated the stooping distance reductions of using both brakes.

[motorman587]

Motorcycle Foundation does not teach panic or emergency stop. They teach either a quick stop or a stop as you are coming up to a stop sign etc......... Remember this is a basic course and if you did not have this simple skill taught you would not believe how many people will not downshift. Even after they have been told too and show a demo.

IMOP downshifting in a life threating emergency stop is mute point. In crash you will not remember what you did. In a panic your mind goes to what you have trained to do. It is call muscle memory. That is why military, police, firefighters train so much. In high stress situation you do not think what you do, but react. In a emergency if you think, it is to late. In an emergency stop your goal is to stop or if you crash you want to scrub off as much speed as possible before impact. Also another possibility if trained correctly is to get off the brakes and swerve.

Here is an article I wrote about ABS braking and how to conduct training.

http://www.motorcops.com/police_training/abs_braking.asp

Remember ABS is just a tool. It does not make for shorter braking distance. ABS is just there if the rider squeezed to hard and started to lock up the brakes.

Remember to go out and practice. Find an empty parking lot, cut tennis balls in half and set up a braking shute. 15, 25, 35, 40 mph do max stopping without putting in ABS mode. I am a big time fan for using all fingers on the clutch and brakes. Why, in a panic you will need all that in the pull and the biggest reason is the other three fingers are between the lever and handgrip. So when you pull handful of brake lever you hit the other fingers and let go when the pain hits.

[bowlesj]

I agree with you Ron. Even with linked ABS your stoping distance WILL be less if you use both brakes. This was demonstrated quite effectively at the BMW dealership in Sturgis during the rally. 10% or even 1% just might be the difference between riding home or not.

Just to be clear, I agree 100% that that maximum braking is achieved using front and rear brakes primarily when stopping to 0 mph with front end dive limited. That's why I must instinctively go for all brakes when stopping unexpectedly.

When one is traveling at 100+ mph and the front brake is jammed on and the rear wheel is essentially not in contact with the pavement, how much braking is in effect at the rear wheel at that point? I really hope someone tries to answer this in a manner other than the obvious answer.:)

It is under this scenario that a rider may tend to acquire a habit of not bothering with the rear brake when entering corners under control.

If down shifting isn't already automatic for a rider, they need much more saddle time riding corners. That's why under unexpected braking maneuvers the foot is stepping on the shifter, what else does it have to do?

[Tom1200]

To put it simply, you need to practice. I practice stuff all the time and try and make it second nature to downshift on braking. I don't think about it anymore, it just happens. But I can tell you that I have had cars, deer and people jump out in front of me and brakes, clutch go in, I may downshift (but I am not sure I did or not) and my next thought is find clear space and control the bike when it stops if I don't hit something.

Lets face it downshifting is a good thing to do period. The real question is weather it would happen during a surprise stop.

If my feet are on the MOP then I can say it most likely will not happen. Your feet may not even get to the normal pegs because of the forces being caused by the hard braking. In the long run it is best to get your reflexes use to a motion.

As for racing you are always in that mode to have something happen in front of you and are at 100% avoidance mind thought. When cruising down the highway and no cars are around I am a little more relaxed. When the deer jumps out of the grass in front of me I am not going to be a quick at if I was in the racing mode. If we were in the high stress race mode all the time on the bike would you really enjoy riding.

Now, I am always in a higher mode when riding but it turns up and down depending on location, conditions and what I am doing.

[mjordans2000]

Who the hell cares what gear you're in AFTER you've just avoided a crash??

Well, for the most part I agree and I seriously doubt I'd ever try to downshift in an emergency but as to who cares what gear your in after avoiding a collision I'd disgree. After a full fledge panic stop to avoid a large bear in my path I would have given anything to not be in 5th gear at 3mph with that bear next to my leg, literally close enough to reach out and scratch his head. (after a diaper change the bear and I were just fine)

[mwnahas]

Who the hell cares what gear you're in AFTER you've just avoided a crash??

Well, for the most part I agree and I seriously doubt I'd ever try to downshift in an emergency but as to who cares what gear your in after avoiding a collision I'd disgree. After a full fledge panic stop to avoid a large bear in my path I would have given anything to not be in 5th gear at 3mph with that bear next to my leg, literally close enough to reach out and scratch his head. (after a diaper change the bear and I were just fine)

Because the person behind you might not be as good as you at avoiding the crash and if your are sitting there and can't get out of his way fast enough you would care.

[RonKMiller]

That's it exactly, and the "pace" is a wonderful thing. I could have been an instructor for Keith Code, I was a WERA riders school instructor. In fact, when I was active on the track, I could lap my brother in 10 laps of practice using no brakes at all, but he never was a contender. Some day if we ride together I'll show you how much your 10% won't help you keep up.:)
I'm not much for the slow school stuff, if it's done at 100+ mph, sign me up.

Oh yes, and that includes the LEO evasion's I've been involved in.:rotf:

There, that oughta' bring Joe out of hiding.

I love you though Ron, you're an aviation hound. We really do stick together.

More like a sky dog. :wave

ANYTHING to bring Joe out of hiding ;) - and I'll take you up on the offer to show me what I've been missing. Always willing to learn from the expurts on the mc, which I surely am not!

Gonna' do an annual this weekend on this bad boy - what a pita - it's two full days.

http://picasaweb.google.com/MillerRonK/AS56Pictures#

[rando]

One of my coaches likes to say that "practice makes PERMANENT". IF you practice stopping properly, i.e. downshifting as you stop, it will become habit and your body will do it for you as needed without you having to think about it so much. I find that the downshifting occurs naturally for me in most cases.

In the MSF classes, the "quick stop" exercise is supposed to represent an emrgency stop. The shortest distance. We stress the downshift during the stop. As coaches, we can only hope they leanr and practice this skill BEFORE they need it. IF a rider practices stopping and downshifting simultaneously, it will happen automatically. If you don't believe me, find other things you do each day that you don't make a conscious effort to do each part. I can't think of any examples offhand, but it could be as simple as getting out bed each day.

I believe that it is a learned response and witih practice, a rider will downshift as they stop on most cases.

Randy

[deanwoolsey]

I spent many years in law enforcement and practiced "threshold braking" on a yearly basis before ABS became standard equipment. It has saved my a$$ a couple of times on cycles. To me it's quite unlikely that you'll ever have the need to quickly accelerate away from an emergency stop but it could happen. Personally the drill goes like this..... brake hard, steer, downshift if you happen to think about it if you realize you're not going to crash.

[Stixx]

Ever had a deer to pop right out in front of you with no warning while you are relaxed and cruising at 70mph? I think anyone will "panic" under those circumstances and doubt very many will take time to downshift. I don't know how to practice for this situation.


No I haven't. Thanks. You make a good point. However trained reactions should be the same if ingrained in your riding enough. I realize too not everyone rides a bike 12000 miles a year which I will easily do this year so things get ingrained fairly quickly under those conditions. Bad habits too, which I'm sure I have a few as well.

I have always gone by Roger Penske's saying. " Luck is when preparation meets opportunity" that goes for bikes as well as racing cars. Lots of surprises happen on a race track deer notwithstanding and if a driver has what it takes he keeps ahead of the game.

All I'm saying is a surprise is not necessarily co existent with "panic" but probably more often than not does occur.

[Stixx]

I spent many years in law enforcement and practiced "threshold braking" on a yearly basis before ABS became standard equipment. It has saved my a$$ a couple of times on cycles. To me it's quite unlikely that you'll ever have the need to quickly accelerate away from an emergency stop but it could happen. Personally the drill goes like this..... brake hard, steer, downshift if you happen to think about it if you realize you're not going to crash.


Threshold braking is indeed the poor man's ABS and in many cases a trained professional can brake in a shorter distance than ABS. Maybe not on ice but certainly on dry pavement I can beat ABS in short distance braking every time on dry pavement with a car which has good brakes.

[DaveDragon]

I have had several large animals appear in my path while riding; once with Woody in During CCR Breckenridge when a full grown Elk turned broadside and blocked the road. We both did max performance braking to keep from becoming one with the beast.

In the Great North Woods are of NH; James and I were flying low (imagine that???) when Bullwinkle Walked out in front of us. James hauled in his ST1300 and I the LT with only yards between us and Da Moose, who just stood there looking at us as we came to stop. 10 - 20 seconds after we stopped, he meandered off the road.

I had to get off the LT for a few and I dropped it because I didn't get the side-stand down all the way.

Several more times out west we have had Elk & Antelope and One Damn Large Brahma that I thought was gonna mount the LT before I could get her away from the horny bastage.

In ALL of these cases, the maximum deceleration braking before ABS engaging without downshifting with clutch fully disengaged. In other words; I didn't further divide my attention by down-shifting, as I was busy balancing Front/Rear Braking force while steering to avoid and identifying escape routes.

Of Course, I spend the time practicing and training with Pros when I can, Like John Pretti. as well as MSF.

The point of the Article is that the average rider is going to get close to task-overload during a "Panic Stop" situation, or better stated as an Emergency Deceleration.

The Pros that were tested during the braking exercises are well trained and practiced at high performance braking and down-shifting; much more so than the average rider, and their best times were with Clutch Disengaged and no Down-Shifting.

My personal experiences, the experiences of these Pro's and the words of the Professional and highly Trained and Practiced Motormen here pretty much seals it for me guys.

[bowlesj]

Lots of surprises happen on a race track deer notwithstanding and if a driver has what it takes he keeps ahead of the game.

Anyone want to hear a good (gory) racetrack/deer story? Venue - Pocono International Raceway.

[bowlesj]

Dumb.

Well Greg, I share a lot of your interest, but not your politics and definitely not your riding techniques. So, since in your post I feel you are in essence calling me dumb, (that's how us A&P's feel about pilots BTW:)) I'll return the favor, especially since Joe isn't here to do it for me.

In essence, if you find downshifting to be a distraction, you are not worthy of the machine you control. That's dumb!

BTW, Downshifting doesn't mean matching RPM to gear yadayadayada. Read more as Click, click, click click. Takes longer to type than to do.

Dang I wish I still lived in the Twin Cities. We'd be having fun this weekend:)

[Lee510]

Anyone want to hear a good (gory) racetrack/deer story? Venue - Pocono International Raceway.
The floor is yours, John. Let's "hear" it!

[bowlesj]

More like a sky dog. :wave

Gonna' do an annual this weekend on this bad boy - what a pita - it's two full days.

http://picasaweb.google.com/MillerRonK/AS56Pictures#

You're crazy on your marketing ideas Ron. (Read as "I'm jealous") You gonna let me take that Hindenberg replica for a ride before we hit the mountain passes?

VNBTW

[bowlesj]

The floor is yours, John. Let's "hear" it!

Sorry Lee, need more interest before I start talking shit:)

[XMagnaRider]

I took the MSF advanced class many times, but I haven't taken it recently. It is now called the Experienced Riders Course. I understand that they have changed the curriculum somewhat since I took it. I also took the Streetmasters Precision Cornering Workshop at a track. All of them included emergency braking exercises.

All of them had you downshift from 2nd into 1st while braking. None of them had you in a gear other than 2nd at the time you initiated the "emergency" braking, so downshifting is a simple, single operation. None of them had you going very fast when you initiated emergency braking. If memory serves me right, I think the top speed was no more than 35 mph (25 for the MSF class??). While these speeds reduce the chances of an accident in class, I expect that in the real world, motorcyclists are riding faster than that most of the time they initiate panic/emergency braking.

The goal of a skilled motorcyclist should be to anticipate conditions, to reduce the chances that panic braking is needed. In reality, that isn't always possible.

For the times where I had to really, truly commit an emergency braking (very rare), I disengaged the clutch immediately. However, I also found that I didn't start downshifting until after the situation was safe. That means later in the braking cycle, typically when the motorcycle has slowed down (accident avoided) but not yet stopped. In a few cases, I was stopped before I downshifted. This is despite all the practice of downshifting while braking.

I can't explain why real life is different than practice. I don't have a lot of examples of real-life panic stops, perhaps once or twice a decade.

Perhaps more practice will help, and I agree that being ready for the next maneuver by downshifting is good, but it is secondary to getting the best braking possible. Getting the emergency stop ingrained so that a front wheel skid is avoided is the most important thing.

[NCrider]

Well said, John and much more politically correct than I was going to be. I started to post a reply, then deleted it because it wasn't purty.

Thinking before you speak applies just as well on-line- think before you hit send.

I appreciate the differing opinions from the veteran/ expert riders. But when someone who has limited riding expereince, as shared by their recent posts concerning their travles to Deals Gap, etc, starts sharing their opinions of good riding skills... well. :wack:

Well Greg, I share a lot of your interest, but not your politics and definitely not your riding techniques. So, since in your post I feel you are in essence calling me dumb, (that's how us A&P's feel about pilots BTW:)) I'll return the favor, especially since Joe isn't here to do it for me.

In essence, if you find downshifting to be a distraction, you are not worthy of the machine you control. That's dumb!

BTW, Downshifting doesn't mean matching RPM to gear yadayadayada. Read more as Click, click, click click. Takes longer to type than to do.

Dang I wish I still lived in the Twin Cities. We'd be having fun this weekend:)

Oh, and I'd love to hear the story!

[bikebum]

Xmagnarider, You have described my thoughts completely. In the MSF class the rider is anticipating the "emergency" stop and is waiting on the instructor to "drop the flag". When doing this exercise I didn't have even a bit of adrenalin flow so it is not truly an emergency stop that the rider practices but a planned rapid stop. In the exercise it is very easy and natural to downshift with the stop.

Again, when the deer (moose, elk, large dog, etc) pops out of the foliage along the roadside and is close enough that I can see its eyelashes, I don't know if I downshift or not. I suspect that I don't until the danger is escaped.

I have been riding motorcycles for 55 years and have taken several safety courses but I guess I must need a lot more training to be in the same league with some of the riders on this forum.

[XMagnaRider]

...I have been riding motorcycles for 55 years and have taken several safety courses but I guess I must need a lot more training to be in the same league with some of the riders on this forum.
Jamie,

It's true. I have been out riding with many of them, and they have a high skill level. I feel like the kid brother just tagging along, despite 30 years of daily riding experience. It's nice that they are patient with me. To quote the movie - "I'm not worthy!" :bowdown:

Cheers,

XMR

[meese]

I feel like the kid brother just tagging along, despite 30 years of daily riding experience. It's nice that they are patient with me.C'mon now, David, we waited for y'all at every intersection. :)

The MSF courses are good for what they are, but my suggestion is to do a track day. Either one of the "training" sessions like Keith Code's California Superbike School (http://www.superbikeschool.com/), or one of the more free-form sessions held at Buttonwillow, Willow Springs, Laguna Seca, etc.


And do lots of reading. Keith Code's A twist of the Wrist is good, as is David Hough's Proficient Motorcycling series.

And read The Pace (http://www.pashnittours.com/thepace.html) by Nick Ienatsch. It should be required reading for anyone getting a motorcycle license.

[bowlesj]

And read The Pace (http://www.pashnittours.com/thepace.html) by Nick Ienatsch. It should be required reading for anyone getting a motorcycle license.

Hey Ken, did you notice my reference

That's it exactly, and the "pace" is a wonderful thing......In fact, when I was active on the track, I could lap my brother in 10 laps of practice using no brakes at all, but he never was a contender.

in an above post? Going brake free can make for a wild ride.:D

[meese]

Hey Ken, did you notice my referenceYep, I just though folks might like a link. :)

And I agree about riding with no brakes. It freaks some people out, but it teaches you a lot about smoothness and good throttle control.

[niel_petersen]

In 41 years & 150,000 miles I have only experienced the need for two panic stops. Both were T bone situations.

In the first about 30 years ago, I got it stopped but screamed at the driver so hard I was hoarse for a day. No way could I find the horn. ABS would have been useful I suppose.

From the second which was two years ago and after a recent BRC, I now know that in a full blown panic I might freeze at the controls trying to figure out what to do. Fortunately I breezed by the front of a left-turning car. Had I tried to stop, I'd have hit him broadside at ~35 mph.

Gear position in a full blown panic isn't very critical for me.

[Stixx]

Seems fair enough to assume none of us really know what we'll do at a given time. As much as I spout preparation and practice, there will always be situations where the unexpected (bad assumption) is interupted with lack of concentration and the accidents happen. That is perhaps the most challenging aspect of our beloved sport. Staying vigil at ALL times but as I've gotten older I know sometimes I wander off in a mindless excursion when riding long hours and that is the thing we should never do . Then perhaps a panic will occur which no doubt will not have a good result.

This is paramount to my not wanting to do ironbutt comps. I love to ride and the distance slash time would not bug me . The odds of doing something seriously wrong while suffering sleep depravation is all to real though so I'll pass.

[bowlesj]

The floor is yours, John. Let's "hear" it!

Here's the story.

http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42470