Spiegler Failure

[Tallyho]

Last July one of my front brake line on my 02 LT had started leaking from crimp point on the rubber hose line during a weekend ride up in the Trinity Alps. We did a roadside patch that worked to get us home and on the advice of many decided to change all of my brake lines over to metal with a Spiegler kit. I did this myself and used the bleeding directions and input from several experienced riders from this site. While it was a little more challenging than I thought and required a "final" bleed at the dealer, I was very impressed with the increased braking power and clean look of the installation. Surely, that would be the last time I would need to worry about brake lines prior to buying a new bike in a few years, right? Not quite. After riding about 6500 miles with this set up including our run to CCR, we arrived at our weekend ride destination last Friday afternoon with slightly mushy brakes. A quick check showed brake fluid all over the starboard front brake caliper, tire sidewall, and rim. It was evident the leak was coming from the fitting connection at the Tee junction. I gave it another slight turn with a wrench and the dripping seemed to stop. Perhaps it had just come loose from vibration as I knew I was careful not to overtighten them? Not quite. The next morning we came out to do our ride on the Beasore Loop only to discover a cascade of brake fluid down the side of the caliper and a pool of at least an ounce of brake fluid at the bottom of the rim. I also noticed there was brake fluid between the steel line and the plastic cover of the short brake line that runs to the caliper. We removed the Tee junction and discovered it had a crack down through the center on two of the three 10mm openings and was migrating towards the third. This had the potential to cause a catastrophic brake failure if it had split the Tee in half as it was threatening to do. We spent most of the day Saturday trying to come up with a patch or work around with what was available at the local Napa store in Oakhurst. We came up with a solution and I was able to limp the bike home on Sunday. Of course, the weekend riding was a complete loss as was our time at a four star Yosemite area lodge booked eight months in advance.

Today I called Spiegler and they were happy to replace the broken Tee. Would they replace the short line with the plastic casing filled with brake fluid? Not quite. I could send it in and have it pressure tested but if it checked out they would send it back. Although he admitted the cracked Tee would allow brake fluid to run between the line and the plastic cover he said the line was not warranteed for this. I asked about the cost($100) of needing the bike system bled again after replacing the defective part but apparently that's not covered either. How about any of the consequential costs of the ruined trip, tools and parts purchased to get home, etc. Not quite. The lifetime warranty only applies to something that actually broke.

One does not need to torque down very hard at all on this Tee to know when the line is seated. In fact, if you turn it too aggressively it will twist the crossover line to the other caliper. I did not over torque the fittings. Everyone that has seen this fitting and its cracks has been amazed at the poor quality manufacturing and design. Spiegler may make excellent brake lines but the Tee junction must be outsourced from somewhere below their usual quality control. Their website encourages us to add that extra measure of safety to our bikes by going to steel, lifetime warranty brake lines. At some point on Saturday I realized it might have been better and less trouble to simply replaced the one errant brake line last July with the stock BMW part. It was my decision and I take responsibility. Would I recommend Spiegler aftermarket brake lines in the future?

Not quite.

[kevincook]

I have brake lines on my list of winter projects and after hearing of this problem again I think I'll probably just go with the stock parts from BMW. I like the idea of steel lines but the tee seems to be a big problem for them.

Glad you didn't have an accident because of the problem.

Kevin

[mtrevelino]

Not knowing about how the speiger lines are installed, couldn't you just reuse the tee from the bmw lines? If you are replacing line for line, why do you need to use their tee or fittings?

[Tallyho]

Not knowing about how the speiger lines are installed, couldn't you just reuse the tee from the bmw lines? If you are replacing line for line, why do you need to use their tee or fittings?It's a completely different set up with the Spiegler. You don't/can't use any of the OEM parts. The "tee" on the OEM is built into the brake line. You can't remove the upper or lower sections. The Spiegler Tee could very well be a weak point. It should be made from a solid piece of aluminum rather than cast.

It may not mean anything but I have noticed most of the new BMW bikes over the past 3-4 years now come with steel brake lines while the LT has never been changed over. For example, the revamped 2005 RT has steel lines but the revamped 2005 LT does not. Maybe it's made that way for a reason? :think:

I showed the faulty tee to a friend who thought any decent machinist could make a much better and stronger one in about half an hour.

[meese]

It may not mean anything but I have noticed most of the new BMW bikes over the past 3-4 years now come with steel brake lines while the LT has never been changed over.Remember, the LT is the only remaining BMW that hasn't been completely updated in the last few years. I imagine the new LT will come with steel brake lines, although that doesn't help you here.

Sorry to hear about your troubles, but at least it didn't fail when you really needed the brakes . . .

[BecketMa]

Not replacing the gummed up brake line is unimpressive!

Failure in a brake line component is frightening.

I also went with Spiegler and replaced all my flex lines so that I wouldn't have a problem in the future. I just figure they'd never use anything that might fail. Course, it never occurred to me that the speedo in my new LT would, by designed, only be accurate when it said zero mph.

Maybe someone will come up with a better, safer Tee?

Bob

[rattler50]

Is Spiegler the only one that makes these lines?........... :rolleyes:

[Tallyho]

I have come across several other manufacturers but went with Spiegler because they were so highly recommended by riders on this site. It's possible I am the lucky chap who got the "one" defective tee as I have not heard from anyone else who's had an issue so I am not ready to trash them. It would have been nice if they had apologized or offered to replace the gummed up short line along with the junction tee. I don't expect people to blow sunshine up my ass on a Monday morning but this failure represents putting wife and myself at great risk plus the loss of about $1000 on a ruined weekend and future dealer expense. I am planning to send a "claim" to their risk management department after I have all the receipts.

Oh yes. How did we get it going? We couldn't find the right junction tee at the Napa store but we did find a connector. So we connected the front main brake line directly to the port side caliper bypassing the starboard completely. Since I had installed the lines and did the preliminary bleeding, I knew how to do it bleeding the handlebar then the back rear reservoir in sequence. So we rode home with one front brake and one rear. We took it easy and I noticed maybe 20% less braking power.(like my old Goldwing) No brake warning or ABS failure lights either for the 225 mile ride home. One thing I did notice was less braking with engine off so I made sure to have the engine on or at least the servo energized whenever I was moving it around. I'm sure there are bubbles on the control side of the integrated controller. I'll get the new tee on it and take it back for another round on the MoDiTec and a system bleed. Chang-ching!

[Tallyho]

Sorry to hear about your troubles, but at least it didn't fail when you really needed the brakes . . .Thanks, Ken. It was actually very fortunate the problem presented itself then rather than up in the twisty, remote mountain route we had planned for that day.

Our guardian angel still flies close by. Kyrie Eleison for sure.

[lnowell]

EXACT SAME FAILURE occurred on my LT within the first two weeks of installation. I had gotten home from a ride with some friends and was going to change my transmission and rear drive lube. My bike had been sitting in the carport for a couple of hours before I started. While removing the right side foot rest assembly I noticed a small amount of fluid beside and to the rear of my front tire. Further inspection showed the right front brake was soaked with brake fluid. Everything else was exactly as you state. The "T" had split on the inside (directly away from the side you can see) and was just dripping fluid.

Since I had not experienced any problems on the ride home or while parking, I assume it split while it was just sitting there. I was very glad it happend when it did.

It was replace by Spiegler within a few days, but I had to re-install and re-bleed the system myself. I was not a happy camper. It seems fine now, but I do not trust it 100%.

[UncleMark]

EXACT SAME FAILURE occurred on my LT within the first two weeks of installation.
Now I am beginning to wonder... Has anyone else had the same problem with this poorly designed Spiegler part?

[lavamanz]

I replaced the front and rear brake lines on my 01 LT about 1 1/2 years ago with the Spiegler and have had no problems. I replaced mine due to a rupture of the front line just above the T.

[Tallyho]

Now I am beginning to wonder... Has anyone else had the same problem with this poorly designed Spiegler part?Mark, if you know a machinist that could make a better one out of a solid piece of aluminum I'd like to explore that possibility.

[motorhead]

Bob,

If you can not find a machinist to build one without costing a kings ransom ?
Let me know, I have a small machine shop in my garage and could very likely build what your after.

Scott


Mark, if you know a machinist that could make a better one out of a solid piece of aluminum I'd like to explore that possibility.

[UncleMark]

Bob,

If you can not find a machinist to build one without costing a kings ransom ?
Let me know, I have a small machine shop in my garage and could very likely build what your after.

Scott
Hey Scott;

here's the link to (http://www.spieglerusa.com/cfm/BrakeAcc.cfm) the Spiegler site. The part is the 3-way 10 x 1 metric thread manifold with bubble flare seats...

As an alternative, here's a link to (http://www.bugcity.com/cgi-bin/WebStore/indexNEW.cgi/mi=yes/srchcd=803611755) quite possibly the same part on VW bug brake system (note: it's brass, not aluminum).

A quick answer is just use the brass unit. While the amount of dielectric properties would be minimal, it could be enough to cause the system to fail at some future point. So the manifold piece should be made of aluminum, and not a schlock grade at that. As a student of machine part engineering, the design, while elegant, is doomed for failure. If I owned a brake line company, this would be the first POS component that would get a real working over. It's just begging for a lawsuit.

No cutesy machined connector points... just make it out of a block of quality aluminum, drill, tap and dull the edges.

Any of this make sense?

3-way manifold using 10x1 metric threads on a bubble flair seat in all three connections... and if it's to be mounted to the fork tube, a small bit of rubber cushion as a harsh vibration insulator would not hurt.

my $.02...

[motorhead]

I see that the issue would be the "Bubble Flair seats"

That profile tooling is a special one without a doubt.

The idea of a BRASS one is actually the better route IMO. It would not suffer from oxidation damage like aluminum would. And if you can source a production built part for the general application your going to get a proper part from the get go. At $8.95 for the "Bug" fitting .... Go for it !!

Bob,

There is a Volkswagon / Bugformance shop here in North Sac on El Camino at Hwy 80 on the west side of hwy.

Scott

[tbarstow]

I see that the issue would be the "Bubble Flair seats"

That profile tooling is a special one without a doubt.

The idea of a BRASS one is actually the better route IMO. It would not suffer from oxidation damage like aluminum would. And if you can source a production built part for the general application your going to get a proper part from the get go. At $8.95 for the "Bug" fitting .... Go for it !!

Bob,

There is a Volkswagon / Bugformance shop here in North Sac on El Camino at Hwy 80 on the west side of hwy.

Scott

Be careful putting a stainless bolt into brass, you're begging for a corrosion problem. I'd go stainless to stainless, or use a more corrosion resistant aluminum alloy.

[Morley]

You should be OK corrosion wise, using the brass 3 way and the stainless fittings on the brake lines. See this page about galvanic differences http://corrosion-doctors.org/Definitions/galvanic-series.htm
Some suggest using a copper anti-sieze on the threads if you are worried about corrosion inhibiting removal of the parts later. The copper will act as a sacrificial barrier between the two metals. For $9 I'd go with the Bug part and see how it works, you have little to loose.

[Tallyho]

I'm checking into the bugpart but it's usefulness was a presumption from a parts guy at the Napa in Oakhurst. It may be a three way 10mm mainfold but the flare has to be correct as well. The location mentioned by Scott is pretty close to where I work.

[BecketMa]

Another member mentioned have flex brake lines made locally.
Maybe the T connector is standardized?
Bob

[Tallyho]

I was looking at the Spiegler site today noticed they make an inline tee similar to the OEM design on the LT. I wonder why they didn't go with that set up?

[hallzee]

Checked mine out... No problems (so far??)!

[Tallyho]

I'm not sure how or why and maybe they monitor bike websites but I just got a call from an engineer at Spiegler. He said they had sent a replacement tee manifold earlier in the week but I should not install it as my defective manifold is not an isolated incident. Apparently, they tested a couple they had in stock and discovered them similarly defective and not up to their quality specs. They received a new, tested shipment from Germany today and I will get a replacement from that batch sometime next week. He also said they would replace the lines that connected to the manifold. He was very apologetic and quite concerned about the safety element. Nothing was mentioned about the cost involved in changing it out or the lost weekend but I will follow up after the parts arrive.

Stay tuned . . .

[BecketMa]

Wonder is they will do a "recall" of the defective ones?
At least with my 00, when the front goes out, I still have the rear.

I installed mine a few weeks ago.

+1 on a new line to replace the gummed up one.

Bob

[lnowell]

Wonder if they are going to send me a replacement for mine also? If there was a bad batch of fittings, chances that we all got faulty replacements when ours went bad is pretty good.

[Tallyho]

There is certainly no harm in asking. This guy indicated I was by no means the only one with a failure and that it is an embarrassment to Spiegler. A buddy of mine ordered his kit the same day I did back in July so I am thinking he also has a defective part. They understand it's a major safety issue and want to make it right. It's what, a $10 cost to them, if that.

[hallzee]

A buddy of mine ordered his kit the same day I did back in July so I am thinking he also has a defective part.
Spiegler is recalling some of the three-way manifolds, which are mounted on the right fork of the LT. According to them, a supplier changed up the part manufacturer, without going through Spiegler for specifications/material approval. The bad manifolds are failing; this is not a part you want to have fail (unless you enjoy having no front brakes). They are now getting the correct part directly from the Swiss manufacturer.

Tallyho and I ordered ours in mid-July. If you have replaced your OEM lines (on the front) within the last few months, I suggest you call Spiegler, with your invoice number in hand, so they can trace. If you did not buy directly from Spiegler, call your supplier.