A view on "The War on Terror"

[cfell]

http://patdollard.com/2008/09/there-are-17-marines-who-are-amputees-fighting-in-iraq/

Semper Fidelis!

[Rock1098]

Awesome article. Thanks.

[Ted Shred]

WOW.

“I had the sad duty of standing over a young Marine sergeant when he
recovered from anesthesia. Despite our best efforts there was just no way
to save his left arm, and it had to come off just below the elbow. ‘Can I
have my arm back, sir?’ he asked. ‘No, we had to cut it off, we cannot
re-attach it,’ I said. ‘But can I have my arm?’ he asked again. ‘You see,
we had to cut it off.’ He interrupted, ‘I know you had to cut it off, but
I want it back. It must be in a bag or something, sir.’ ‘Why do you want it?’
I asked. ‘I am going to have it stuffed and use it as a club when I get
back to my unit.’ I must have looked shocked because he tried to comfort
me, ‘Don’t you worry now, colonel. You did a fine job, and I hardly hurt
at all; besides I write with my other hand anyway.’

Now, please tell me that these young guys aren’t the Greatest Generation
that has ever lived.

[gunny]

Semper Fi is about all that a man can say about that.

I spent 21 years in the Corps and ran across a whole bunch of Marines of that caliber.

[meese]

Semper Fi is about all that a man can say about that.

I spent 21 years in the Corps and ran across a whole bunch of Marines of that caliber.Which is exactly why we need to stand up and support these soldiers. First and foremost would be to not send them into harms way needlessly, by cooking up "facts" and starting a war based entirely on lies, deception, and fear-mongering.

It's like praising a rider for wearing ATGATT during his crash, after you've reprogrammed the traffic lights for your own benefit, and damn the consequences.

[charlieg]

Which is exactly why we need to stand up and support these soldiers. First and foremost would be to not send them into harms way needlessly, by cooking up "facts" and starting a war based entirely on lies, deception, and fear-mongering.


I get the idea that these guys, who have been there on the ground, do not believe that they lost their limbs needlessly.

-Chuck-

[nplenzick]

I get the idea that these guys, who have been there on the ground, do not believe that they lost their limbs needlessly.

-Chuck-
The quote was "to not send them in harms way needlessly"

[meese]

I get the idea that these guys, who have been there on the ground, do not believe that they lost their limbs needlessly. Of course not. They've been trained to do a job, and they're doing it very well, literally putting everything they have into it. That's something that we can all be proud of.

But I believe it is possible to support the troops, while still questioning their commanders. Was invading Iraq the only option here? Of course not. Was it the "right" thing to do? That's highly debatable, even (or should I say especially) 5 years later. Have we cowed the terrorists or gotten any real material gain from our $12 Billion a month? Or, to put it another way, what could we have accomplished here at home with $12 Billion/month for the past 5 years? Hell, send that cash back to the taxpayers, instead of a measly one-time $600, then see how the economy rallies.

Or better yet, just stop wasting our tax money in the first place.

[astuber]

....But I believe it is possible to support the troops, while still questioning their commanders......

Speaking just for myself, as someone who served in the U.S. military at the end of the Viet Nam war, it is not possible to support the troops and oppose their commander and/or mission-at least not from the view point of the troops.

[AlaskaFish]

+100! Having served proudly as a Marine in Viet Nam as well as over 24 years with the US Coast Guard (a branch who also serves in time of war!) I can tell you that it is a fact the comments Troops hear from the US against whatever conflict they are participating in practically destroys whatever morale they have! When you criticize the justification for being there you are indirectly stating that their friends who were wounded or killed in that conflict have been wounded or killed in VAIN!

It is not something any Marine, Soldier, Sailor, Airman or Coastie who has lost someone ever wants to hear. Even if it should prove to be true, it still hurts those who serve!

Sincerely,

Semper Fi & Semper Paratus!
John
Speaking just for myself, as someone who served in the U.S. military at the end of the Viet Nam war, it is not possible to support the troops and oppose their commander and/or mission-at least not from the view point of the troops.

[gpolakow]

+100! Having served proudly as a Marine in Viet Nam as well as over 24 years with the US Coast Guard (a branch who also serves in time of war!) I can tell you that it is a fact the comments Troops hear from the US against whatever conflict they are participating in practically destroys whatever morale they have! When you criticize the justification for being there you are indirectly stating that their friends who were wounded or killed in that conflict have been wounded or killed in VAIN!

It is not something any Marine, Soldier, Sailor, Airman or Coastie who has lost someone ever wants to hear. Even if it should prove to be true, it still hurts those who serve!

Sincerely,

Semper Fi & Semper Paratus!
John
So, what should our course of action be -- should we give our unqualified support to any war the government feels inclined to involve us in for whatever reason, no matter what the cost in lives, dollars, moral standing? Ok. But what's the point of having free speech, what's the point of a democracy? why should we ever hold our leaders responsible for anything they do? Should we let our troops believe they are fighting for something worthwhile even when they are not? I suppose that would be the most convenient thing to do. Then we wouldn't have to bother making moral judgements.

[DakotaDude]

To all of the USA-bashing/criticizing individuals (you know who you are), this article is a very compelling example of why the USA is a GREAT country and always will be a GREAT country.

[kdog]

+100! Having served proudly as a Marine in Viet Nam as well as over 24 years with the US Coast Guard (a branch who also serves in time of war!) I can tell you that it is a fact the comments Troops hear from the US against whatever conflict they are participating in practically destroys whatever morale they have! When you criticize the justification for being there you are indirectly stating that their friends who were wounded or killed in that conflict have been wounded or killed in VAIN!
John
FWIW, I can tell you that there are soldiers in Iraq who already question the war. I met and had a lengthy conversation with a young man whose Humvee was blown up by a road sign bomb. His commander was killed in the blast, and my acquaintance almost lost his arm and had shrapnel embedded in half his torso and his leg. He was a wreck. He explained to me that the war was a farce and should never have been started. However, he has a great love for his country and his fellow soldiers and was dedicated to doing the best job he could. I asked him what his plans were now, fully expecting an answer like "go back to school and get a job". But no, his top priority was to get better so that he could go back to Iraq and continue fighting along side of his fellow soldiers -- in a war in which he didn't believe. True story. And I had that conversation over two years ago.

Regards,
-joel

[motorman587]

Those guys rock.........

[gpolakow]

To all of the USA-bashing/criticizing individuals (you know who you are), this article is a very compelling example of why the USA is a GREAT country and always will be a GREAT country.
Guess it depends on how you define "great."

[meese]

To all of the USA-bashing/criticizing individuals (you know who you are), this article is a very compelling example of why the USA is a GREAT country and always will be a GREAT country.C'mon now, W already tried that whole "if you're not with us, you're the enemy" crap. Didn't work then, either. Remember, dissent is the highest form of patriotism, and just as it is a soldier's duty to follow orders unquestioningly, it is a civilian's duty to question our leaders and keep them honest. The system doesn't work if either side breaks down, and we all end up paying the price.

Yes, the USA is a GREAT country, but it's far from perfect. That should be obvious to anyone who's awake.

[meese]

I can tell you that it is a fact the comments Troops hear from the US against whatever conflict they are participating in practically destroys whatever morale they have!Viet Nam and its aftermath was handled very badly. All the crap was tossed at those returning, rather than those who put them there in the first place.

For the first Gulf War we all tried to be better, by supporting the troops regardless of your opinions on the war itself. That also morphed into general patriotism and support for the war over time. This time 'round, the justifications were weak from the beginning so they fell back on fear and patriotism as their defense. Fortunately that was blatantly obvious from the beginning so it didn't last long, although a few deluded souls will still try it now and again.

And if it does prove to be true, then doesn't it hurt the soldiers more by leaving them in harms way for no good reason? Again, the blame lies squarely on the commanders, not those caught up like pawns in a deadly game.

[fionamax]

I understand how criticizing or questioning the justification for the mission might hurt moral, but what if the justification is due to incompetence or worse, an outright lie?

Larry

[cfell]

'Congressmen who willfully take actions during wartime that damages morale and undermine the military are saboteurs and should be arrested, quickly tried and hanged!!!'



Yeah.. a Republican said it.

He also said this:
"God of Heaven has forgotten to defend the weak and innocent, and permitted the strong band of murderers and demons from hell to kill men, women, and children, and lay waste and pillage the land of the just."

and

"Fondly do we hope — fervently do we pray — that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue, until all the wealth piled by the bond-man's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash, shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord, are true and righteous altogether." With malice toward none; with charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in; to bind up the nation's wounds; to care for him who shall have borne the battle, and for his widow, and his orphan — to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace, among ourselves, and with all nations."

Yes, he was a Republican... just another raving Christian lunatic waving God in our faces...

[cfell]

I wasn't aboard the airplanes on that day, September 11... still, the towers and all those lives ..... the just and the unjust....are gone.

As a man working for peace, I suggest you not think me weak...

As a man willing to be gentle, do not think I am for "peace at any cost"...because there IS a cost for peace.

As your friend, there is none more faithful..

As your enemy, there is nothing more fearful...

You made me your enemy... you did not strike at the lawmakers or the United Nations....You struck my brothers.

Independence is the hallmark of America, but unity is our standard bearer.

Your soldiers did not fail in 'Nam... your "lawmakers" were the failure because they failed to lead.

Since "9-11" we have had a leader who has taken the war to the ones who made us the enemy.

You can comfort yourself with your intellectual padding.... and comfortable shoes.

If given the chance, I will hold my brother-at-arms and comfort him to his last breath... and I will remember and honor.

You can hide behind your lofty wisdom which is filthy rags in the presence of truth and goodness.... and I will remember.

Go ahead, crush the infant's head in justification of your self-righteous perversity... and I will remember... 50 Million silent screams.

Go ahead, spit on those willing to "take it personally".... and they will remember...

When the wolf is at your door... who will remember.. what will they remember?

It is folly to be presumptive of Mercy.

[meese]

But do you not think that being sent into the desert to die in vain also "damages morale and undermines the military"? There is still no link between Saddam & Iraq and Al Qaeda & 9/11. Period.

I have no problem with troops going into Afghanistan. They let Al Qaeda take refuge there, they were duly warned, then we went in exactly as we said we would. Hell, we should've kept going into Pakistan as well, and chased down those directly responsible for the atrocities into every rabbit hole and warren on that border.

But that has nothing to do with Iraq, period.

The scariest thing about your quotes, Deacon, is that you could easily replace God with Allah and they would still make sense, just to a different group of zealots. You can't beat your enemy by becoming them, or else what's the point in "winning"?

[DakotaDude]

C'mon now, W already tried that whole "if you're not with us, you're the enemy" crap. Didn't work then, either. Remember, dissent is the highest form of patriotism, and just as it is a soldier's duty to follow orders unquestioningly, it is a civilian's duty to question our leaders and keep them honest. The system doesn't work if either side breaks down, and we all end up paying the price.

Yes, the USA is a GREAT country, but it's far from perfect. That should be obvious to anyone who's awake.

No one, me included, is saying the country is perfect, and I have been very awake for many years. What I am saying is the USA is great due to the character, attitude, and commitment offered by a great number of the citizens of the USA, particularly the military personnel that were the reason for originating this thread. I don't fault you or anyone else who dissents toward the actions of some of our so-called "leaders". The plain fact of the matter is that poor decisions were made by this country's leadership, and we ( the citizens of the USA) have to live with the bad decisions made by incompetent, misguided leadership. I sincerely wish we weren't involved in conflict in the Middle East. All we can reasonably do now is to accomplish the mission, get out, and hope to never again be placed in a similar situation.

The men and women placing their lives on the line do not deserve bashing, critisism, or being called murderers, assassins, etc. by Foreign, Socialist trolls; the very troll(s) to which this reply was directed. Neither you or gpolakow came to mind when I posted my reply to the thread's author, but, it is enlightening to witness, first-hand, another's political self-assessment brought to the forefront by a simple phrase such as "you know who you are".

You obviously take a liberal slant on issues such as these; I generally take a conservative position. Neither one of us is right or wrong regarding our interpretations/opinions, thus, we just have to "agree to disagree". Also, as far as I'm concerned, there is no "if you're not with us, you're the enemy crap" and I don't think my post intimated that context.

I will agree that reasonable, focused, and civilized dissent is patriotic.