sqealing brakes

[boocoo_dinky_dow]

has there been any success having squealing brakes repaired under warranty? 2 months old & becoming progressively worse. brakes function fine but the noise is embarrassing.

thanx
denis

[xrmattaz]

As a nOOb, I can only respond to your question with my learnings from this site. But as a well-seasoned motorcyclist, I'd have to agree! My dealings with BMW in the past (this if my 4th) has been somewhat south of "stellar". Noisy brakes that still work well are not at the top of their list for warranty.

EBC brake pads. I'll install some on my rear caliper Tuesday. My front brakes don't make a peep.

[cws]

I reported squealing brakes at my first service (1000km) last week... same response. "It's the xxxx (type) brake pads, doesn't affect braking though".
Annoying, nonetheless! But its only in that last 5 metres as I pull up next to the cars and they start looking at shiny new bike with the horrible brake noise...

[RoyvL]

I think BMW believes 'Loud brakes save lives'.... better than loud pipes I suppose.
I wish they would fix mine too. It is EMBARRASSING.

[JATownsend]

There are a couple of issues here with BMWs brakes. The most complaints seem to come from NEW bikes for a couple of reasons.

1. New brakes need to be bedded in. The routine is pretty simple: Accelerate up to 60 or so and REALLY nail the brakes. Grab a hand-full! Speed back up and let the brakes cool - 3 to 5 minutes of riding. Then, do it again. HARD.

2. The BMW stock rears are an organic compound and they tend to *Glaze* over a bit. Once glazed - they howl. Many users tend to baby the LTs power brakes and that exascerbates the issue. Give your brakes the same exercise you give the throttle. Ride it like ya stole it!

3. Switch to EBC rears. They are better, but, still do all the above.

This is tried and true by many riders!
Good luck. :cool:

[cws]

Thanks JA, makes sense.
Will make it fun playing in the traffic in the morning.
Now if I can just catch that light as it turns red...

[S2DOG]

Get a set of Rear EBC brake pads and ride the bike normally. That's what I did even after dealer attempts to fix the problems. Now they are quite as a mouse. :D

[hschisler]

Yep, at my 600-mile service (with 1160 miles on it) the dealer "cleaned the front brakes" and replaced something (I'll have to ask him again) on the rear brakes. Both sets of brakes were becoming increasingly louder and more annoying. I don't have the bike back yet to confirm they have returned to their normal/quiet mode because the clutch is being replaced (another story, another post) and the bike is still in the shop.

[cws]

Howard,
did you end up getting any more info on the "squeal" fix from your dealer, if indeed they did fix it?

[hschisler]

did you end up getting any more info on the "squeal" fix from your dealer, if indeed they did fix it?
No, I've been too busy enjoying the bike to call. I'm off the rest of the week; I'll call and find out what they did. But that doesn't really matter, because the rear brakes squeal just as much as they did before the service.

On this point: can I assume the dealer will NOT install EBC pads at my request, under warranty? And if not, how much do they cost?

Regarding a previous reply in this thread: does the "bedding" process described earlier actually solve the problem (negating the need to buy replacement pads for a new bike)?

[hschisler]

it's only in that last 5 metres as I pull up next to the cars and they start looking at shiny new bike with the horrible brake noise...
EXACTLY what mine do. I find myself using the front brake in traffic (to avoid embarassment), rear brake or rear & front when no one is around. That's nuts.

[scoobydoo]

I did have relatively quite brakes until i installed the EBC Pads. I needed new pads to correct an alternating flashing ABS Light problem so I ordered rear and front Pads from Bike bandit

the link,
http://www.bikebandit.com

I still have the EBC on the front, although I used a Brake quiet compound on the back sides, which helped the squeal, but not the rubbing sound from the front.

The rear are worse with the EBC pads than they were with the OEM pads, they squeal like a Banshee the last 10 secs of a stop... I have used the Red Brake Quiet Compound on the back side of the pads with out much of luck.

I would not use the EBC on the front, use OEM. If they squeal with the OEM on the rear, I would try the Anti Squeal Compound first, if it does not work you can use the compound on your new EBC, with EBC, you cannot lose, at worse you may end up the same squeal.

[hschisler]

The rear are worse with the EBC pads than they were with the OEM pads, they squeal like a Banshee the last 10 secs of a stop... I have used the Red Brake Quiet Compound on the back side of the pads with out much of luck.
Interesting that yours is the first post I've seen that says the EBCs didn't solve the rear brake squeal instantly. Guess it's not for everyone.

Where does one buy Red Brake Quiet Compound -- any auto parts store?

[dshealey]

I posted several times over the years that the EBC's on the rear did not fully stop the squealing, but still squealed a little when just about stopped with low pressure on the brake pedal. They did stop the squealing/growling at higher speeds and high pressure though.

I learned to use the rear brake only until just about stopped, then front only for the last bit to prevent the squealing when using the EBC rear pads.

I would NOT use EBCs on front again, had one set, pulled them off after about 8,000 miles. Could not stand the incessant rattle with them. Stock BMW pads on front are as good as you can get.

[KayGee]

I find myself using the front brake in traffic (to avoid embarassment), rear brake or rear & front when no one is around. That's nuts.

I thought that our brakes were linked so it didn't matter which lever you used.

[dshealey]

The linked brakes did not start until 2003, leaving thousands of us with unlinked brakes, not necessarily a bad thing. :D

[KayGee]

The linked brakes did not start until 2003, leaving thousands of us with unlinked brakes, not necessarily a bad thing. :D

Howard's sig states that he has a 2005 LT

[vstromboli]

Interesting that yours is the first post I've seen that says the EBCs didn't solve the rear brake squeal instantly. Guess it's not for everyone.

Where does one buy Red Brake Quiet Compound -- any auto parts store?

My rear EBCs also still squeal at slow speeds, even with the red NAPA CRC stuff applied to them. Can't think of anything else to do. Oh well. :(

[scoobydoo]

Where does one buy Red Brake Quiet Compound -- any auto parts store?[/QUOTE]

The compound is called "Disc Brake Quiet" by Kleen-Flo. I puchased the 4oz bottle at "Lordco". Suspect it would be available at any UAP, NAPA or Pet Boy's.

I paid somewhere around $9 Canadian, so that would be like a buck in states ;)

[hschisler]

Howard's sig states that he has a 2005 LT
I do have an '05 LT, and the brakes are linked. Now, I can't tell you if their "linked" proportions are different when applying front only v. back only, but (as others have posted) I use the front brake control only, just as I come to a stop. in order to avoid the noise. The rear brakes squeal only when the foot brake control is applied.

Who has info on how the brakes are linked differently when applied by hand control v. foot control?

[hschisler]

EXACTLY what mine do. I find myself using the front brake in traffic (to avoid embarassment), rear brake or rear & front when no one is around. That's nuts.
Quoting myself now!

I should add: my rear brake squeal is speed-related. The rear brakes don't squeal continuously as I stop. The sound pulsates, mostly "off" until a certain part of the tire's rotation. It's almost as if only one segment of the rotor causes them to squeal.

Is that what yours (all of you who replied) do?

[2wheeler]

I've tried "power braking" the rear brakes several times to see if that removes the squeal. I would say that it was a very temperary solution at best, but really did not fix it for the long term. I'm about to do a 12K maintainance and will order new rear pads! I would suggest that you at least try it, because I would bet that some will say that it has cured their noise.

Can someone tell me the part number to order and a good pace to get them?

[FA50Flyr]

My 05 had a terrible squeal with the stock pads. I replaced them with the EBC's - still squealed. I then put the red stuff on the back side and reduced the noise by about 50%. It's aggravating that the last few feet of a stop has to be completed with the front lever to eliminate the noise - not a very good procedure!

[boocoo_dinky_dow]

i also tried the hard braking several times with little success. helped for a short while but never completely stopped.

i did, however, learn that squeal or not, this sucker will stop on a dime!! never ridden a bike with this type of stopping power. reassuring!!


denis

[ErnieA]

The linked brakes did not start until 2003, leaving thousands of us with unlinked brakes, not necessarily a bad thing. :D

David,

My '02 has linked brakes. I also use BMW pads and CRC "Brake Quiet" on the rear pads with wonderful success. I love the brakes just as they are. The only noise I have had is after following Ken through a herd of buffalo at 2mph. http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif I had to give them a hard application once and they have been quiet now for over 5k.

[nearmisses]

Tje previous owner of my bike had same issues, went to DP. They squeal "selectively" now, only in am when I need to make a quiet exit from the marina. They get damp under the cover. Dry from a garage is MUCH BETTER!

[dshealey]

I actually knew that, but for some reason I ALWAYS think they started in '03. Don't know why I cannot remember that it was '02. That has caught me out on my bad memory a few times now. :D

[RoyvL]

My 02 LT squeals all the time - front and back. Have tried every solution on this board. Nothing helps for long.
I would really appreciate a fix. It is the only thing that detracts from the pleasure of riding this bike.

[jackd]

My 02 LT squeals all the time - front and back. Have tried every solution on this board. Nothing helps for long.
I would really appreciate a fix. It is the only thing that detracts from the pleasure of riding this bike.

Have you tried using a paper box? Clean off all the goop and cut an outline of your pad out of a Wheaties (or your favorite) box or some sturdy similar type box. Then place this between the rear of the pad (both sides) and the caliper pistons. takes all of 15 mins.. lasts all season, for me, till the box paper compresses too much..:D usually about 15,000 miles for me.. new season new box.. worked two seasons for me. Cost effective also and best of all it works.

[RoyvL]

Have you tried using a paper box? Clean off all the goop and cut an outline of your pad out of a Wheaties (or your favorite) box or some sturdy similar type box. Then place this between the rear of the pad (both sides) and the caliper pistons. takes all of 15 mins.. lasts all season, for me, till the box paper compresses too much..:D usually about 15,000 miles for me.. new season new box.. worked two seasons for me. Cost effective also and best of all it works.

I'll try anything :D
What about getting the Wheaties wet :D

[jackd]

I'll try anything :D
What about getting the Wheaties wet :D

I don't like mushy Wheaties.. :D.... either

Actually I thought next year I would try a box from frozen veggies.. or a coated box to see it it stood up a little longer. Only problem I see is if you have lot of liner left the thicker paper could present a problem getting all four pieces.. 2 pads and 2 paperboard shims in the slots provided. The coated boxes are somewhat thicker... and maybe would not wear out in just one season.. the piston actually grinds through the shim.

[meese]

Here's a cut & paste from a discussion of the Integral brakes on the previous LT site:

Technically, the LT's brakes are neither Linked nor Integrated as they don't fall easily into either of those definitions. BMW Motorrad uses the term Integral to refer to the 2002 and up brakes (2001 in Europe/Canada).

Yes, they are power assisted, but they are also controlled by a small processor that varies the front and rear braking forces applied depending on wheel speed, lever forces applied, and other conditions. At driving speeds and normal conditions, you will get a similar response from either the front or rear lever. But at slower speeds, the front brake lever has much more effect on the front wheel and the rear brake can be applied without generating any noticeable force on the front wheel. That's what makes slow-speed u-turns possible. Add to that the ABS functions, which attempts to limit wheel lockups under heavy braking or in slick conditions, and the power assist, which multiplies the forces exerted by the brake levers onto the calipers.

I know that some of the older Gold Wings had one front and the rear caliper connected to the rear lever, while the front lever operated the other front caliper. That setup (and linking all calipers to both levers) can easily be accomplished by just rerouting the hydraulic plumbing. Honda's current Linked Braking System uses multi-piston calipers with some brake pistons from each wheel hooked to the front lever and the others hooked to the rear lever, but again this is just a trick of plumbing with no real intelligence or active compensation. The BMW Integral Power ABS unit is much more sophisticated and active unit that doesn't really fit into those classifications.

So basically what BMW has done is unique in the motorcycle world, and not directly comparable to any other brake system that you may be familiar with.

[Thomas0826]

JA, I'm pretty new with the K1200 (1999) also but I do a lot of my own work, brakes and such. Anyway I just replaced my rear pads with some EBC pads and the squealing stopped also. However, in the process I noticed the rear rotor is not tight to the wheel hub is it supposed to be? seems to me this would cause a lot of wear?
I haven't taken it off yet and thought I'd ask first.
Thanks Tom

[scoobydoo]

its good you have not taken it apart, it is a floating rotor. But that being said it should not rattle either. if you look you can see space between bolts and rotor with a tension washer between.

I believe you mentioned you have a 99, that being the case you may need to have a closer inspection to tell if the rotor is indeed floating "too much" Sorry i do not have those particular specs, or the method to check the rotor, but am sure someone on the board does.

[dlancello]

My rear pads just needed to be replaced (11000mi.). The dealers I have called said the squealing is normal and not covered. This seems odd, because the new BMW pads have the anti squeal shims bonded to the back side. The shims look the same as the US auto industry started using back in the 1990s to correct the same problem.
I didn't scuff or "deglaze" the rotor and I havent heard a peep out of it in the last 150 miles of intown driving. But don't tell BMW, the Germans don't like to be corrected.

Dave Lancello
dlancello@comcast.net

[rracer]

My dealer replaced the pads which helped a little. Seems only to be a problem on the rear. Bedding, or wearing in, did not help, stomped the heck out of the brakes, no improvement. Am going to try the EBC pads. Dealer mechanic told me he couldn't make em squeal, ha ha.

[Chick]

Denis:

I, too, had miserable squealing on my 2005 whenever I used the brakes. The dealer had no BMW fix for the problem. I tried the cereal box fix reported on this site and it worked!

Remove the pads, trace them on a cereal box, cut out the "shim" and reinstall the pads with the shims. Results, no squealing.

[Thomas0826]

Thanks for the info, what caught my attention was the rear rotor was making noise and if I touched the rear brake it stopped. when I pulled the rear pads off I could freely 'move' the rotor, not a lot of slop but enough to make me question whether it should be tight or not. With the new rear pads the squeal and the rear noise are gone.
Thanks again.

[jackd]

Thanks for the info, what caught my attention was the rear rotor was making noise and if I touched the rear brake it stopped. when I pulled the rear pads off I could freely 'move' the rotor, not a lot of slop but enough to make me question whether it should be tight or not. With the new rear pads the squeal and the rear noise are gone.
Thanks again.

If you can grab your rear rotor and shake it and it makes any metal to metal noise it is too loose. Unfortunately it will only get worse. I have the same problem and mine needs a fix and I will do something during the off season.

[Thomas0826]

Jack, so what's the fix? I assume it needs a little movement since both the wheel and the caliper are fixed. Is this due to wear or did it not get reassembled correctly? Any ideas? I thought of using a light compression washer on each side but like you said if it is warn it will only get worse
Thanks
Tom

[Steve_R]

Jack, so what's the fix? I assume it needs a little movement since both the wheel and the caliper are fixed. Is this due to wear or did it not get reassembled correctly? Any ideas? I thought of using a light compression washer on each side but like you said if it is warn it will only get worse
Thanks
Tom
Tom,

No where do you tell us what year bike you have. Checking the microfiche on-line at A&S Cycles there are a several items you want to look at. I ordered a complete rear assy, BMW P/N 34 21 7 673 796, same P/N for all model LTs. I don't remember the price, but it wasn't cheap. You can also use the microfiche (http://www.ascycles.com/illustrated_parts_catalog_main.aspx) at A&S cycles and see there a bolts and washers that hold the disc in place. Using just them to tighten up the wobbling disc problem would be a bet at best.

Just something else to think about.

Ride Safe.

[Thomas0826]

Duh! Its a 1999. I just looked at the site with the microfiche, this is a great site to know about. I'll have to look at the bike a little closer this weekend to see for sure whats happening. The fiche for the 99 rear end doesn't show any washers just a countersunk bolt. I'll let you know what I find, thanks again I really appreciate all the help and responses from everyone.

Tom

[dshealey]

The countersunk bolts only hold the armature of the floating disk assembly in place until the wheel is installed. Those two flat head screws do not hold the rotor for operation, the high clamping force of the wheel lugs is what really holds the rotor against rotation. No way to have any "float" there. The little (approx 0.5MM) float is obtained by the compliance between the rotor and the armature, by the rivets, washers, and thin wave springs.

[jackd]

Jack, so what's the fix? I assume it needs a little movement since both the wheel and the caliper are fixed. Tom

I had a squealing problem and BMW replaced the rotor while I had warranty... with what I thought was this new floating rotor.. If all rear rotors are / were floating someone correct me.. It never did anything to fix the squealing problem. As soon as the new pads glazed it started to squeal again...

At first the rotor had a very lttle movement 'potential' and now mine is actually loose... well maybe not that bad but it has movement and if I hit a rut or bump at low speed I can hear it clang... pressure on the rear brake stops the clanging.:(

As far as I knew the replacement was a new assembly... but I read info posted by steve_r that stated that there actually was a wave washer in the fiche... so when I'm ready I will look for the part or I will replace the whole rotor... I can't see any washer on the one on my LT but I have not taken it apart.. either..

Seems like it would be a fix just to have some compression to keep the slop or laterial movement and ultimely the noise under control.

[Thomas0826]

Jack, what your describing is exactly what I am experiencing. I looked at the fiche but didn't see a wave washer as a separate part.

Tom

[slmorley]

I had no luck stopping the rear brake squeal by changing to EBC pads; if anything I think they got worse. I also tried the compound with no luck. I then purchased the newer BWM pads, no luck there either.

Just this morning I installed a rear drive unit complete with brake disk off a 2005 model. The squeal is completely gone! Go figure??? I'm hoping it doesn't come back.

[Ranger6]

Even though not squealing, when the front pads need replacing is the EBC a good choice for it too?

[dshealey]

Even though not squealing, when the front pads need replacing is the EBC a good choice for it too?

NOT FOR THE PRE '02 FRONT BRAKES!!

I don't know about the '02 on though. For the pre integral brakes, the EBC pads did not have the anti-rattle springs that the Stock or Ferodo pads had, and rattled incessantly on rough surfaces. I pulled them off and put stocks back on.

The stock BMW front pads are as good as you can get anyway, already double sintered "HH" type pads. The only decent non stock replacement I found were the Ferodo fronts, but the next time I tried to get them they were unavailable. Only reason to get them was that they were a little less expensive than stock. Went back to stocks.

[Steve_R]

The wave washer was for the front discs. There are several bolts shown in the fiche and as I just ordered a whole new assembly, I don't know what parts are really needed.

[Jerrod Maguire]

EBC brake pads are typically a waste of money if you are buying them to stop the rear brake squeal.

[murray]

The linked brakes did not start until 2003, leaving thousands of us with unlinked brakes, not necessarily a bad thing. :D
FWIW linked brakes started 2002 model year.

[N3xuS]

I have a 2005 K1200LT that I purchaced back in June. After only a few hundred miles my rear brakes sounded aweful, and like stated above it was sad pulling up on my shiny new bike sounding like a cement truck coming to a stop. I would complain to the dealer everytime I had an oil change or a service done but was always the same only a few miles from the dealer. It had been several years since I had a bike and I guess I was imtimidated by the size of the LT so I was always light on the brakes, it was new and I was trying to keep it that way. I finally started using them hard after getting really damn tired of hearing them squeal. Unsure how many miles I had before they stopped but it was at least 7000 or better. In the beginning I was pulling up to a stop and using the brakes as lightly as I could, I didn't want anyone else to hear it which was probably only making the problem worse. I have 14,000miles on her now and had almost forgot about the brake issue. Hope you get past the squeal, at the time it was a BIG deal.

[ATLDB]

When I first got my 2002 LTC, the rear brakes squeal terribly, than someone in this site posted a response telling me and I quote: to "Use the hell out of them". The previous owner must have use the front brakes 90% of the time to stop the bike. I use the rear ones 90% of the time to stop the bike. And I am NOT talking about tapping it gently to slow it down, stump on the son of !@@#$.

"Use the hell out of them" was the best advice I have ever gotten, takes some getting use to, maybe even some skill, but I can travel black top, inside town, twisties and use my rear brakes ONLY. They have never squealed again.

My .02 cents.

[davek1]

my dealer put on EBC. They did it for "Cost" of pads only. No instalation charge. It corrected to issue about 95%. Good enough for me.

[Jerrod Maguire]

I bought the EBC brake pads several months ago too, by suggestion, and the noise problem was no better. Last night after reading all the posts in this thread, I tried the cereal box cut-outs behind each brake pad. Unbelievable... worked like magic. Easy to do and took all of 20 minutes.

[jackd]

Last night after reading all the posts in this thread, I tried the cereal box cut-outs behind each brake pad. Unbelievable... worked like magic. Easy to do and took all of 20 minutes.

It's amazing how simple the fix is for light rear brake users.

I tried being aggressive with the rear brake but it is not my style.

[Bortmess]

I have a similar problem. Just put new brakes on my 2002 LT after 34000 miles (Done at the BMW Dealership) . The new brakes were worse than my old brakes for noise. I have about 500 miles on the new brakes and they did lighten up a little bit in the sound department. I guess I'll try that brake test.

[bikerkash]

I had a problem from day one with a squealing rear brake and here is what I have found out. BMW corp. does not care about this problem so do not waste your time with them. The dealers would like to fix this but they do not know what to do as they also get no help from BMW corp. I will not go into all the things that I have tried as it is too long to list and I can assure that they do not work. I have tried all the after market brake pads and have actually found the stock BMW pads to be the best. I have also had 18 holes drilled in the rotor which seems to help. When I replace the pads often the noise returns so I remove the pads and sand them with garnet sand paper and attempt to ruff up the rotor the best that I can and this seems to help. However what has seemed to be the most effective thing has been to make a change to how I use my brakes. By this I mean that I now initiate my stop with my rear brake, as I believe this puts less stress on the front tire and extends front tire life, then apply the front and finish the last several feet before I stop with my front brake only. This has been a habit that I needed to relearn from the way that I have always used brakes before. I've learned is to put both feet out as I'm coming to a stop, this keeps my foot off the rear brake for the last part of the stop. I have 42K on this bike and I change rear pads at app. every 8k so I have been though a number of pads. I believe if you try this you will find your squeal will be a thing of the past. Hope this helps. RIDE SAFE

[ibbones]

I think I have found the solution to the loud breaks. I had to run a few errands yesterday and my son (14) wanted to go to get a video game. I told him that I would not come back to pick him up and he could go with me for to other places. He wanted me to put in his new CD that he got for Christmas, Bon Jovi, Have A Nice Day. we pulled out of the driveway and by the time we got to the "big street", we were thumping. We cruised around town and I am not sure how it happened but my son had found the volume control and we were telling people two blocks in front of us to "have a nice day". Not one time did the breaks make a noise. I am not really sure how it happened but somehow the radio volume level has something to do with how loud the breaks squeal.
I guess from now on, I need to crank it up to make the breaks quiet and that way no one will hear me. :D :D :D