BMW Luxury Touring Community - Ya Gotta Love those Texans...

Ted Shred

Jul 25th, 2008, 12:37 pm

T.B. Bechtel, a part-time City Councilman from Midland TX, was asked on a local live radio talk show just what he thought of allegations of torture of the Iraqi prisoners.

His reply prompted his ejection from the studio, but to thunderous applause from the audience.

"If hooking up an Iraqi prisoner's balls to a car battery will save one Texas GI's life then I have just three things to say,

Red is positive
Black is negative
Make sure his balls are wet"

D.Kinsey

Jul 25th, 2008, 12:43 pm

zippy_gg

Jul 25th, 2008, 1:33 pm

His reply prompted his ejection from the studio, If you don't like the answer... don't ask the question! :thumb:

grifscoots

Jul 25th, 2008, 1:47 pm

The studio owners are obviously not Texans. That was the correct answer.

katnapinn

Jul 25th, 2008, 1:53 pm

As said by Ron "Tater Salad" White "If you kill someone WE WILL Kill you back......Some states are trying to repeal the death penalty, in Texas we're putting in an Express lane"

ldbikin

Jul 25th, 2008, 2:04 pm

Ya know, I never did like texas all that much....

But I'm changing my mind! :rotf:

gglove

Jul 25th, 2008, 2:21 pm

"If hooking up an Iraqi prisoner's balls to a car battery will save one Texas GI's life then I have just three things to say,

Red is positive
Black is negative
Make sure his balls are wet"

My wife and I call this fore play :D

Ted Shred

Jul 25th, 2008, 2:29 pm

As said by Ron "Tater Salad" White "If you kill someone WE WILL Kill you back......Some states are trying to repeal the death penalty, in Texas we're putting in an Express lane"

One of the best stand up bits EVER!!

Lonewuff

Jul 25th, 2008, 4:13 pm

My wife and I call this fore play :D

:histerica :rotf: :histerica :rotf: :histerica

norriscooper

Jul 25th, 2008, 4:31 pm

The Rev. Jessie Jackson has a better solution!

desertlizard

Jul 25th, 2008, 6:45 pm

Ted Shred

Jul 25th, 2008, 6:52 pm

That's funny and all, but I just have to make a quick comment. I want us (The U.S.) to be the guys in the white hats, the good guys, the guys that win without resorting to lawlessness. Gene Autrey would never have hooked a battery to someone's balls.

Dale White

Yer kidding right?? Gene Autrey was in the MOVIES. Do you think the extremists we are fighting give a shit about "lawlessness"?? Have you forgotten 9/11 already?

This is the real world we're living in, not movie fantasy land.

desertlizard

Jul 25th, 2008, 7:24 pm

I just thought I'd reply in a cutesy fashion, like the original post. If we need to go to the real world, okay.
First, T.Bubba Bechtol is a comedian, not a politician. He claims the quote. He stole it from another comedian, who used it about AID's research on monkeys.

Second, I have not forgotten 9/11. How many Iraqis were involved in that? Do you remember?

Third, does torture work outside of TV shows like 24? Would information from a prisoner who was tortured be reliable, or might they say anything to make the pain stop?

Finally, no, I'm not kidding. They may not give a shit about lawlessness, but I do, and I think that's what makes us better than "them."

Dale White

Ted Shred

Jul 25th, 2008, 8:03 pm

Finally, no, I'm not kidding. They may not give a shit about lawlessness, but I do, and I think that's what makes us better than "them."

Dale White

We'll be "better" than them only if we win. I think we should give the men and women entrusted with fighting for our freedom any means they need to secure that freedom.

walkingdude

Jul 25th, 2008, 8:38 pm

I guess I don't see how invading a sovereign nation like Iraq is securing our freedom. The attack of 911 was perpetrated by terrorists, not aligned with any nation (except possible Saudi Arabia ) so how does killing 400 thousand Iraqi civilians secure our freedoms? Most of our freedoms have been lost as a result of the war, remember the Patriot Act?

I do not believe in torturing enemy soldiers nor noncombatants. We signed the Geneva Convention, so lets live up to our obligations.

meese

Jul 25th, 2008, 8:52 pm

Now I don't believe everything he says, but I did find this quote rather telling:

As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil,
then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set
out to destroy.
- Christopher Dawson, The Judgment of the Nations

grifscoots

Jul 25th, 2008, 9:56 pm

Y'all never met my first wife, have you?

Bobnoxous

Jul 25th, 2008, 11:04 pm

As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil,
then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set
out to destroy.
- Christopher Dawson, The Judgment of the NationsGood quote. If you only have principles when convenient, you don't really have any principles. Everyone thinks they're principled, but for most people, whatever principles they think they have, they get "put on hold" as soon as things get challenging. I see this all the time.

Getting useful information from torture make interesting TV, but in reality it's not very effective. Just tell them something to make them stop. It's great at getting bad intelligence. Even the FBI agrees with this.

The other thing that's pretty stupid about this response is it falls on that old "if is saves just one ..." logic that you really have to shut your brain off to believe. Would we sacrifice 1 prisoner to save 1 Texan GI? Sure. What if he was innocent? Well, we don't now that he was, but even if he was, we'd still kill him first. How about 2 prisoners? What if they're innocent? How about 100? How about we just kill everyone who looks middle eastern?

Of course you have to balance what's gained with what's lost. To treat any life as having an infinite value requires the brain to be petrified, with only the medulla functioning. Yet it's repeated all the time.

But, despite the lack of an upside, there's no real downside. They're just a bunch of crazy towel heads who would all just as soon kill us as look at us. It's not like they're people, right? I mean, you gotta admit, they're a little different. They're probably not capable of forming tight bonds with families and friends, and being motivated by revenge for their killing. (Please recognize this is sarcasm. I feel dirty just typing the words.)

Morley

Jul 25th, 2008, 11:13 pm

Finally, no, I'm not kidding. They may not give a shit about lawlessness, but I do, and I think that's what makes us better than "them."

Dale White
Well, if "we" aren't prepared to do what has to be done to protect ourselves, we may as just roll over and toe up

Morley

Jul 25th, 2008, 11:19 pm

I guess I don't see how invading a sovereign nation like Iraq is securing our freedom.
Have you seen this? http://www.nysun.com/editorials/iraqs-yellowcake/81328/

http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/07/about_that_500_tons_of_yellow.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25546334/

dshealey

Jul 26th, 2008, 3:40 am

As an engineer, I have to put this into play. Just what can hooking a car battery to anyone do? Certainly not cause an electrical shock.

I guess the jumper cable clamps would be very painful, but you would not need the battery, or the cables. Just the clamps.

Or were they just using the battery for weight?

You can feel 12 volts if you grab one battery post, and put your tongue on the other, but it will be just a tingle.

It really bugs me when news media uses something this blatantly ignorant to get attention.

LostAlmost

Jul 26th, 2008, 8:54 pm

Jim

Jul 27th, 2008, 12:35 am

I was tightening the lug on one battery terminal using my left hand. The wrench was touching my wedding ring which in turn touched the other post. I received a very bad burn on my finger and the ring still has a notch out of it. I think it could be an effective way to get someones attention. :eek:

Steve_R

Jul 27th, 2008, 8:31 am

Know I understand your reason for the Custom User Title. :rotf:

dshealey

Jul 27th, 2008, 8:41 am

David,

As a physicist, I would like to respond. Get a car battery, take something conductive, like a 12" crescent wrench, and drop it across the terminals. Now picture your balls in that situation. Please wear safety glasses.

Doug

A physicist? Did you not have to take any courses in electricity in school?

Apples and oranges. You are NOT very conductive at all. Cannot compare the human body to a crescent wrench. Anyone can grab both terminals of a car battery with absolutely NO problem at all. You won't even feel it. As I said earlier, maybe with your tongue on one terminal, but that is about it. Go try it yourself. I promise, you will not feel it.

pkpr1998

Jul 27th, 2008, 8:43 am

Y'all never met my first wife, have you?

Grif, me thinks that we had the same first wives :histerica

jzeiler

Jul 27th, 2008, 11:17 am

I keep hearing this myth of "killing of 400 thousand Iraqi civilians" as being blamed on the US. I do believe that IF that many died it was at the hands of the Terrorists and thier suicide bombs, not the US military. This is not WW II where we carpet bomb with hundreds of bombers in hopes that a few will actually damage critical infrastructure. The strikes are very surgical now with a CEP of 10 meters and we only drop one not 10,000.

AlaskaFish

Jul 27th, 2008, 12:11 pm

Jim, what you felt was the ring heating up from the direct current flow when the ring contacted the wrench completing the circuit for the current. If you leave it long enough and the batt is charged up you could turn that gold into a toaster element! But the burn was not the result of the current flowing through your finger itself. As David said, the human body really is a very poor conductor. Now if we talk high enough voltage (voltage = force) we can get the body to conduct. Like high voltage transformers, or lightning! But that battery does not have sufficient voltage to overcome our internal resistance.

I still love the vision though! Whatever it takes to help our troops.

John
I was tightening the lug on one battery terminal using my left hand. The wrench was touching my wedding ring which in turn touched the other post. I received a very bad burn on my finger and the ring still has a notch out of it. I think it could be an effective way to get someones attention. :eek:

Jim

Jul 27th, 2008, 1:14 pm

Jim, what you felt was the ring heating up from the direct current flow when the ring contacted the wrench completing the circuit for the current. If you leave it long enough and the batt is charged up you could turn that gold into a toaster element! But the burn was not the result of the current flowing through your finger itself. As David said, the human body really is a very poor conductor. Now if we talk high enough voltage (voltage = force) we can get the body to conduct. Like high voltage transformers, or lightning! But that battery does not have sufficient voltage to overcome our internal resistance.

I still love the vision though! Whatever it takes to help our troops.

John

OK, so the secret is to touch the clamps together at the point of attachment. I get it now.

Morley

Jul 27th, 2008, 2:28 pm

OK, so the secret is to touch the clamps together at the point of attachment. I get it now.
No, the "secret" is the water, it conducts electricity very well.

dshealey

Jul 27th, 2008, 6:00 pm

No, the "secret" is the water, it conducts electricity very well. Actually, plain water is not a great conductor. It needs something in it, like salt, to make it very conductive. Tap water often has enough contaminants in it, or chlorine, to make it conductive enough to pass enough current at household voltage (120) to hurt or kill you. But plain tap water will not conduct enough current at 12 volts to hurt you, and if it would, the resistance of your body would stop it anyway.

I just went to the garage to put some numbers on this.

Two large copper lugs for surface area, attached to my meter, and dropped into a glass of tap water (Tennessee's finest) produced a current of 40 milliamps from a 12 volt car battery. That is 0.040 amps. With just the meter probes without the large copper lugs only produced 10 milliamps.

I then measured the resistance of the water, with the copper lugs fully submerged and about 1.5" apart, there was 300 ohms of resistance, certainly not highly conductive. With just the meter probes, it was 500 ohms.

I then checked my body resistance one wet hand to the other, and got 50,000 ohms resistance. This can vary over time, and person to person. It takes about 5 milliamps to kill you, and at 50,000 ohms would require 250 volts. That is why you rarely hear of anyone killed by 120 volts. It can happen, depends on the body's resistance at the time, and the voltage path from supply to ground. If it is in a path that can carry the current through the heart or brain area, then it can happen. Usually contact with 120 volts only produces a pronounced shock. 240 volts is far more dangerous, as that can easily produce the required approx. 0.005 amps current.

Anyway, it is very difficult to get any kind of feelable shock from a car battery, a deadly current from contact with one is absolutely impossible.

Morley

Jul 27th, 2008, 6:36 pm

Actually, plain water is not a great conductor. That is "pure" water, and no it is a fair insulator.
I then checked my body resistance one wet hand to the other, and got 50,000 ohms resistance.
Take those probes and press them into your thumbs with a good force, you'll see your body's resistance drop sharply. Now imagine the clamps on the tender testies.
Anyway, it is very difficult to get any kind of feelable shock from a car battery, a deadly current from contact with one is absolutely impossible.
Well the point of the exercise wasn't to kill the prisioners, just extract information.
I was once zapped by 28 VDC, and I'm here to tell you, it really made me stand up and take notice. I wouldn't want that applied to my "neither regions". And 2 car batteries wired together will get you very close to that. Just because they said "car batteries" does not mean just one and just 12 volts. We have a tug at work that runs on car batteries...lots of them. It uses a 72 volt charger.

andy

Jul 27th, 2008, 6:39 pm

Anyway, it is very difficult to get any kind of feelable shock from a car battery, a deadly current from contact with one is absolutely impossible.

Being another technicioan that had to deal with electricity all his life life long: Actually WATER as in destilled WATER without any contaminants is an EXTREMELY bad conductor to the point that some consider WATER in it's pure form an isolator. Mixing contaminants into the game the whole equation changes.

Now in regards to the above statements and KNOWINGLY splitting hairs: Absolutely impossible? I would not go that far, if you have someones chest open and touch his/her heart with paddles connected to a 12V battery and then touch those paddles left and right of his/her heart I imagine it could be possible to administer a deadly 'shock' to his heart. But then I guess it would be easier to employ other methods if you want to inflict harm and you have his chest open and the heart exposed. LOL

dshealey

Jul 27th, 2008, 9:02 pm

Being another technicioan that had to deal with electricity all his life life long: Actually WATER as in destilled WATER without any contaminants is an EXTREMELY bad conductor to the point that some consider WATER in it's pure form an isolator. Mixing contaminants into the game the whole equation changes.

Now in regards to the above statements and KNOWINGLY splitting hairs: Absolutely impossible? I would not go that far, if you have someones chest open and touch his/her heart with paddles connected to a 12V battery and then touch those paddles left and right of his/her heart I imagine it could be possible to administer a deadly 'shock' to his heart. But then I guess it would be easier to employ other methods if you want to inflict harm and you have his chest open and the heart exposed. LOL

Andy, you know I was talking about contact externally, certainly not internal after opened up. That is taking it to the very extreme, totally out of context to the discussion.

dshealey

Jul 27th, 2008, 9:11 pm

That is "pure" water, and no it is a fair insulator.
Take those probes and press them into your thumbs with a good force, you'll see your body's resistance drop sharply. Now imagine the clamps on the tender testies.

Well the point of the exercise wasn't to kill the prisioners, just extract information.
I was once zapped by 28 VDC, and I'm here to tell you, it really made me stand up and take notice. I wouldn't want that applied to my "neither regions". And 2 car batteries wired together will get you very close to that. Just because they said "car batteries" does not mean just one and just 12 volts. We have a tug at work that runs on car batteries...lots of them. It uses a 72 volt charger.Strange that you could even feel 28 volts. Must have had an open sore or something. Very few people can feel anything less than about 40-50 volts, unless touched to a very sensitive area, or open skin. If you have a 28 volt battery hooked up to a circuit, and you are holding the lead as it is disconnected, you CAN get a shock from an inductive load on the line, such as a solenoid or other coil that develops a reverse inductive voltage as the magnetic field in it collapses. That is how ignition coils work, and a voltage considerably higher than the source voltage results. I am pretty certain this is what you felt, NOT the 28 volts from the battery supply.

AC is normally far more apt to be felt than DC, and doorbell and heating thermostat wiring is 24 volts AC, I don't know of anyone that can feel that any more than just slightly. I know I cannot.

If there was any danger at that voltage, imagine the safety changes that would be in affect. Thermostat and door bell wiring is totally unprotected against human contact for the most part, because there is no shock danger from it.

Morley

Jul 27th, 2008, 10:06 pm

Strange that you could even feel 28 volts. Must have had an open sore or something.
heating thermostat wiring is 24 volts AC, I don't know of anyone that can feel that any more than just slightly. I know I cannot.

If there was any danger at that voltage, imagine the safety changes that would be in affect. Thermostat and door bell wiring is totally unprotected against human contact for the most part, because there is no shock danger from it.
No open skin or sores, 28 VDC to the fingers (doing a jettison check on an F-4's centerline rack)
I was also shocked by the 24V from my A/C control system when I was putting in a new air handler (for got to pull the service disconnect to it).
Want a nice little jolt? Put your fingers across an aircraft NiCad battery after deepcycling/charging. Make sure you have no metal on you though.

Keilwerth

Jul 27th, 2008, 10:37 pm

Yer kidding right?? Gene Autrey was in the MOVIES. Do you think the extremists we are fighting give a shit about "lawlessness"?? Have you forgotten 9/11 already?

This is the real world we're living in, not movie fantasy land.

Gene Autrey, was in the MOVIES, after he was in real combat, for which he won the CMH.
- And I agree, as tempting as it is to torture (the right people) we ought to stand for what is RIGHT and fight to preserve it. That said, the quote was funny!

andy

Jul 27th, 2008, 11:01 pm

Andy, you know I was talking about contact externally, certainly not internal after opened up. That is taking it to the very extreme, totally out of context to the discussion.

Oh Cm'on! Where is the fun if I can;t take you literally any more. LOL.

But for the record: Externally, I agree 100% 12 or 24V No chance of harming anyone. 36V and some folks begin to fell a tingling (more of you connect it to your tongue), 48V and above you can get some nice jolts.

zippy_gg

Jul 27th, 2008, 11:45 pm

Gents... Isn't it time to ride???;)

KMC1

Jul 28th, 2008, 3:10 am

dshealey

Jul 28th, 2008, 7:19 am

Since I'm electrically illiterate and since this has now peaked my curiosity.... why does a 9 volt battery make your tongue tingle so much if you need to get up to around 36 volts or whatnot? That's what I was drawing upon to picture using a car battery for torture. :confused:

That scene from the Lethal Weapon franchise with the car battery with a sponge in the shower will live in infamy however! I have stated in a couple of the posts here that you may feel 12 volts if you stick your toungue on a battery post. Not with hands, arms, legs or feet. I am not in the mood to try it with the body parts in question here though. ;) Even then, like your tongue, it would only be a tingle, not a shock that could be used for torture. Some might even like it. :rotf:

KMC1

Jul 28th, 2008, 10:38 am

I have stated in a couple of the posts here that you may feel 12 volts if you stick your toungue on a battery post. Not with hands, arms, legs or feet. I am not in the mood to try it with the body parts in question here though. ;) Even then, like your tongue, it would only be a tingle, not a shock that could be used for torture. Some might even like it. :rotf:
Is it because of the salts in saliva? Or that tongue tissue is more of a membrane than the skin on our arms/body? I wish to understand the differentiating mechanism that allows the tongue more sensitivity so that a 9V battery will work. Electricity really does confuse me, don't know enough about it.
I do NOT like getting shocked, and ironically grew up with a Grandfather who did understand electricity and also thought electrical shocks were the absolute height of comedy. And yes, I know, this explains a lot! :histerica

norriscooper

Jul 28th, 2008, 1:36 pm

KMC1

Jul 28th, 2008, 3:03 pm

Good grief, all this a priori discussion needs to come to an end. Would someone plase walk out into their garage, lift the hood of your car, lick your fingers, grab the battery terminals, and report back to us.
Or,
If someone really has the cojones, try the jumper cables trick.
LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I KNEW we couldn't be the first ones to want to know the answer to this!!!

What a wuss! He screams like a girl! :histerica :histerica O.K. Start it... Turn it off! Turn it off!!! LMFAO!! (http://youtube.com/watch?v=xTQJm7lYHBQ&feature=related)

norriscooper

Jul 28th, 2008, 4:11 pm

LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What a wuss! He screams like a girl! :histerica :histerica O.K. Start it... Turn it off! Turn it off!!! LMFAO!! (http://youtube.com/watch?v=xTQJm7lYHBQ&feature=related)

Yabut he got the car started!

davemoore

Jul 29th, 2008, 9:59 am

You go, Dave Shealey!

My first thoughts upon reading the initial post were also "bullcorn" for all the reasons already stated above. Always one to believe we need more Technical Correctness in our society, I reeled the first time Han Solo said, "I made the Kessel Run in under twelve parsecs." And, the myth about using cell phones to unlock your car door from a distance made me want to beam up to the mothership. We engineers are too logical. Twelve volts simply won't cause enough current through high-resistivity skin to be felt, even wet skin. Current is what you feel, and current is what kills. BUT, puncture the skin, and the resistance drops drastically. I dare say jumper cable clamps would have that effect on soft tissue. Same effect when you test a 9V battery by touching it to the tongue. I'll be the first to put my wet hands across a 12V car battery, but I'm not gonna test the jumper cable theory, no way.

Here's how we settle this issue. OSHA says 6-30 mA are required to cause painful shock. This requires 2000 Ohms resistance or less. Somebody please jab a pair of Ohmmeter probes through their skin and see if it reads that low?

Ted Shred

Jul 29th, 2008, 2:37 pm

I dare say jumper cable clamps would have that effect on soft tissue. Same effect when you test a 9V battery by touching it to the tongue. I'll be the first to put my wet hands across a 12V car battery, but I'm not gonna test the jumper cable theory, no way.

So the guy in the video that was posted is acting? Sure looks like he felt it to me...