Pulled the trigger on regular gas

[Coot]

Pulled the trigger on regular gas and so far so good, no pinging or lag and my mileage at least in town is about the same. I have not had a chance to take it on the highway and check hwy miles yet.
After reading a thread in here on it I figured I would give it a try.
My 2000 lt has a sticker on the gas cover requiring 93 octane and that's all its ever had in it since it was new except for a tank of plus in west texas.
I might alternate and run super through it every other tank or two, but 4.25 a gallon super if I don't really need it why buy it. I am going to stick with Shell or Chevron because I like there additive package and throw in a bottle of Chevron Techron fuel system additive every once in awhile.
That Techron is some good stuff. The operators at the gas rack use to give us bottles of it to add to the store in ground tanks when we made deliveries and would give us some for personal use.

[tnbeemer]

I put 20,000 miles on my 07 LT and have run premium, mid grade and regular. I've run major name brands and no name brands and can't tell much difference in any fuel put in my Lt. LT's have a knock sensor that adjusts the timing if a knock or a ping is detected so no harm would be done running any grade. I've been using regular for the last 5000 miles. No problems in performance or mileage riding two up most of the time.

[cdrprn]

I've used Chevron regular since my bike was new without any ill effects just and just turned 10k. Recently tried two tanks of supreme back to back and didn't notice much difference either. Have decided to take over all the maint. myself due to $$$ and will soon be checking the plugs to see if they show any signs of color-wear. Are either of you using redline gearoil in your bikes? Gets better the more you ride it, don't you think?
'05 LT "Goldfinger"

[usmctpdog]

I used reg in my 05 LT and got better Gas mileage than using premium.

[eotiii]

I've been using 93 octane fuel only because I cut the brown wire. I’m afraid to use regular now.

[JATownsend]

... LT's have a knock sensor that adjusts the timing if a knock or a ping is detected so no harm would be done running any grade. I've been using regular for the last 5000 miles. No problems in performance or mileage riding two up most of the time.
I'm curious who told you LTs have a knock sensor?

There is no evidence In any recent threads I've read (http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28654&highlight=Knock+Sensor) that would lead me to that conclusion.

I use regular very often will no ill effects and no detonation. I do use Premium when it HOT and I'm running loaded and fast, like out west. Otherrwise regular works just fine.

[motorhead]

:eek: Tried regular 86/87 octain ONCE !!! .... Poor engine sounded like a tin can full of marbles. NEVER AGAIN !!

Mind you this under heavy load from low rpm, and hard roll on in upper gears.

After seeing and reading about David Shealeys LT's piston damage a few years ago figured what bullet you dodge today can and will hit you another day.

Best of luck saving @ $1.00 per fill up today, and peace of mind on issues another day.

[tnbeemer]

I'm curious who told you LTs have a knock sensor?

There is no evidence In any recent threads I've read (http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28654&highlight=Knock+Sensor) that would lead me to that conclusion.

I use regular very often will no ill effects and no detonation. I do use Premium when it HOT and I'm running loaded and fast, like out west. Otherrwise regular works just fine.


You may be right. I know my K1200GT has them. My dealer told me I could run the lowest octane as long as there was no knocking or pinging. I can run regular gas year round on my 07 LT without any knocking or pinging. I have checked my milage running all grades and have found no difference in fuel mileage. When I bought it new , all I ran was premium. I went to Mid grade after 10,000 miles, then tried reg. after 15000 miles. I now have 20,000 miles on the LT and have not noticed any difference in my performance or gas mileage.

[hallzee]

:eek: Tried regular 86/87 octain ONCE !!! .... Poor engine sounded like a tin can full of marbles. NEVER AGAIN !!

Mind you this under heavy load from low rpm, and hard roll on in upper gears.

After seeing and reading about David Shealeys LT's piston damage a few years ago figured what bullet you dodge today can and will hit you another day.

Best of luck saving @ $1.00 per fill up today, and peace of mind on issues another day.
+1. My LT ran OK with a tank of regular, but that's only with slow acceleration. Git on 'er, and she sounds like the old Jiffy Pop commercial.

[harrowbmw]

Greetings all

We're kind of lucky here in Australia, as we have available 91, 95 & 98 RON (Research Octane Number) fuels.

I always run 95 or 98. I just reckon my awesome K1200 motor deserves the better quality of the 95 & 98.

Hey, I can even drive down to my local airfield where I fly and buy 103 if I feel the desire too.

Cheers and kindest regards to all.

Paul Harrington

[wacolt]

:After seeing and reading about David Shealeys LT's piston damage a few years ago figured what bullet you dodge today can and will hit you another day.

Best of luck saving @ $1.00 per fill up today, and peace of mind on issues another day.

In the former, a bullet I choose to avoid; can't agree more concerning the latter.

[cfell]

Gasp.. you can run something other than "regular", like rocket fuel? Imagine how you could wear the tires out!!!

[Motomadman]

At a $1.00 more per tank for high test whats the Beef. If your all down on your luck that bad there are many super scooters out there that are getting almost double the milage of the LT and thats on regular. I'm sure there are many other ways to save that buck or two.....Maybe one less Starbucks...

[sydvicioustx]

I was using regular in my 05LT. That was until it got real hot in Texas. It sounded horrible starting out. I tried premium and by the end of the tank I could tell the difference.

[ArthurKnowles]

In my '06 regular pings from the get go. I've always used premium in it because of that, but may try a tank of mid-grade just to see how it works or doesn't as the case may be. In my RT, mid-grade worked finr. Haven't tried regular in it yet. It too states premium only.

[ltdavey]

Er, fellas.
I think it has to do with compression ratio.
Higher ratio, higher octane.

[rkimmel2]

At a $1.00 more per tank for high test whats the Beef. If your all down on your luck that bad there are many super scooters out there that are getting almost double the milage of the LT and thats on regular. I'm sure there are many other ways to save that buck or two.....Maybe one less Starbucks...


I use regular because my 99' has run perfectly for the last 45000 miles with it. Has nothing to do with not being able to afford a couple of bucks more for a tankful. Has everything to do with not being a chump. Insulting those with a position different than one's own is a poor substitute for empirical evidence. Most people with BMWs could easily afford 10 buck a quart oil but buying it would not necessarily be smart. It all comes down to someone saying once that they heard from someone else about damage from gas or an oil related failure. Go ask a mechanic how many K bike engines he has had to tear down based on such failures.

[Hollywood]

Pulled the trigger on regular gas and so far so good, no pinging or lag and my mileage at least in town is about the same. I have not had a chance to take it on the highway and check hwy miles yet.
After reading a thread in here on it I figured I would give it a try.
My 2000 lt has a sticker on the gas cover requiring 93 octane and that's all its ever had in it since it was new except for a tank of plus in west texas.
I might alternate and run super through it every other tank or two, but 4.25 a gallon super if I don't really need it why buy it. I am going to stick with Shell or Chevron because I like there additive package and throw in a bottle of Chevron Techron fuel system additive every once in awhile.
That Techron is some good stuff. The operators at the gas rack use to give us bottles of it to add to the store in ground tanks when we made deliveries and would give us some for personal use.
Been putting regular in the tank of mine since I have had her.
No problems ever noted.

[RealWing]

LT's have a knock sensor that adjusts the timing if a knock or a ping is detected so no harm would be done running any grade. I've been using regular for the last 5000 miles. No problems in performance or mileage riding two up most of the time.

The LT's do not have any knock sensor that I can find. I checked all the electrical diagrams and service manual - and nothing. The later LT's have 11.5:1 Compression (The earlier ones had 10.8:1) which is very high for regular gas. I would never trust my hearing to know for sure if there was or was not any pinging with regular. (My son can hear when my Barracuda pings, but I can hear nothing!!!) Wearing a helmet and ear plugs makes it virtually impossible to hear light pinging. I've seen what detonation can do to pistons and bearings - and it is not pretty.

There is no way I'm running anything but premium.

[gladiator99]

Hope to pick my new to me 06 blue metallic K1200LT next week and was wondering what grade of fuel to use. If the compression is 11/1 then I would think that 91 octane which is the premium blend here, should suffice. Our mid range is 89 octane and I sometimes use it in our 02 T-bird. One fill with 91 and then top it up with 89, and I don't notice any loss in performance. Would this be a problem in the Beemer? Just sold my 89 Venture Royalle today and am getting excited to pick up my new ride.
Take care!
Jim

[ltdavey]

The LT's do not have any knock sensor that I can find. I checked all the electrical diagrams and service manual - and nothing. The later LT's have 11.5:1 Compression (The earlier ones had 10.8:1) which is very high for regular gas. I would never trust my hearing to know for sure if there was or was not any pinging with regular. (My son can hear when my Barracuda pings, but I can hear nothing!!!) Wearing a helmet and ear plugs makes it virtually impossible to hear light pinging. I've seen what detonation can do to pistons and bearings - and it is not pretty.

There is no way I'm running anything but premium.

That pretty much sums it all up.

[SCltc]

We hold SIX gallons, getting Forty plus MPG. If supreme is 20 cents more per gallon or less = $1.20 or so per tank. In a BMW high performace engine I'll run supreme.

[neodoc]

We hold SIX gallons, getting Forty plus MPG. If supreme is 20 cents more per gallon or less = $1.20 or so per tank. In a BMW high performace engine I'll run supreme.
Tom beat me to the punch with his comment. Honestly, we spend a good deal of money on our bikes, then on all the farkles, and now we nickel and dime ourselves with saving a whole $1.20 per tankfull. Come on, guys, be realistic. If there are some of you who have not experienced any problems with regular gas, more power to you. You'll have enough saved up for when you have to fix the engine. I happen to disagree and will continue to use premium in the bike and the AMG that's in the garage.

[RealWing]

You really don't want this to happen to your pistons!!! (This was pretty severe detonation by the looks of it)

[rkimmel2]

You really don't want this to happen to your pistons!!! (This was pretty severe detonation by the looks of it)


Is this picture a BMW piston from a K-Bike?

[Ron_Kendall]

Made the switch to regular yesterday after using mid grade...did over 400 miles on a ride with hilly twisty roads & had no problems.

[Coot]

Well it was just an experiment after reading the post on the
forum. I at least know know that if for some reason I have too, I can get by on a tank or two if need be, without destroying the motor. Going to top it off with super after the ride today and throw a bottle of Techron in it.

[RealWing]

Is this picture a BMW piston from a K-Bike?

No, it is not from a K bike. It is representative of what severe and sustained detonation can do to an engine. Some engines can sustain some detonation better than others due to their design, but is still just like taking a hammer and hitting the top of your piston with it.

[Motomadman]

Cruzin at 80 to 85 mph with the Subdudes cranked up and a full face helmet, who can even hear if their engine is pinging. I'll throw in that extra buck in now instead of thousands later......

[Ron_Kendall]

Cruzin at 80 to 85 mph with the Subdudes cranked up and a full face helmet, who can even hear if their engine is pinging. I'll throw in that extra buck in now instead of thousands later......
Cruzin around today with no helmet & no music, she still purred like a kitten with regular gas.

[rkimmel2]

No, it is not from a K bike. It is representative of what severe and sustained detonation can do to an engine. Some engines can sustain some detonation better than others due to their design, but is still just like taking a hammer and hitting the top of your piston with it.

Thanx. Does anyone have a picture of a detonation damaged piston from any K-bike from the 80's or 90's let alone an LT? Come on you mechanics out there, convince me to use the high priced spread with some evidence!

[dshealey]

Here are pictures of detonation damaged pistons from my LT. This was not from useage of regular gas, but riding about 2,000 miles with a misdiagnosed vacuum leak! I was at my daughter's home in Memphis, and when I was leaving to return to San Diego where I lived at the time, I all of a sudden had a bad idle problem. Rode it to Little Rock and stopped at the new at the time dealer there. They put it on the Moditec and messed with it for about an hour, and said it was the throttle positioner, but they did not have one in stock. I elected to ride on to San Diego. The following week I took it to the dealer there, and they rapidly diagnosed it as a bad vacuum leak. They replaced all the throttle body seals and the crankcase ventilation hose assembly. It was running pretty good, so I thought no more about it. A few weeks later I noticed increased oil useage, and it steadly got worse over the next few months. I finally decided to replace the valve stem seals, thinking they were leaking. Did not help, so a couple months later I pulled the head. Could find no damaged cylinder walls or anything amiss, so I pulled the pistons to check the rings. The pictures show what I found! All four pistons had the ring land under the compression ring broken, all in the same place! I posted pictures to the BMW technical groups, and the Guru's there all said the same thing, DETONATION damage. The couple thousand miles I rode from Little Rock to San Diego, and three or four days more until I got it to the dealer there running with the bad vacuum leak caused the motronic to get confused, and seemingly ran the bike too lean, causing detonation. We have no knock sensors, so unless you hear it (I didn't), it just does it's dirty work.

So, you can probably get away with regular, in spite of what BMW says, BUT you better not have the timing too far advanced, or run too hot, or have a vacuum leak, or ----------------------------. Maybe best not to chance it?

[Motomadman]

Cruzin around today with no helmet & no music, she still purred like a kitten with regular gas.
Natural selection at work again?

[Caveno]

The bike has a compression of over 10, so it needs higher octane gas. I think if you are in a cooler climate and dont put a lot of strain on the bike, you can get by with 87, but I ride in NYC, in traffic, heat, 2up, etc. I won't chance lower octane gas!

[wacolt]

Here are pictures of detonation damaged pistons from my LT.

Thank you for sharing that one!

Regards,
Curt

[ltride]

Having had many motors apart, yes even LT motors this is when you will see the damage. You just do not always hear the pinging. For most riders this will never be a issue as they will sell and pass this along to the new owner. For those of you that are judging by "no difference in performance" just do not understand. But it is your bike so do it your way and enjoy the ride.

[Ron_Kendall]

I tried regular for the day & yes she ran fine with no noticeable problems/noise....but the long term affects still bothered me...so now I'm back to premium so I can sleep :sleep: at at night.

[Caveno]

Don't buy a $21,000 bike and try to save $1 for every 250 miles you ride! That doesn't make sense. You could mess up your bike.

High compression = high octane gas.

If you want to put cheap gas in your bike, buy low compression bike, like a harley or goldwing. Those engines are bigger than the LT's but they have less horsepower. It has to do with compression.

Shariff

[ez_rdr55]

"Pulled the trigger"? Is that the same as "decided to try" regular gas?

[nswenson]

My 2000 LT pings badly with regular gas. I wouldn't recommend it. Fortunately the LT gets amazing gas mileage so I don't feel so bad putting premium in it.

[HarvRead]

I experienced severe engine damage on my '99 LT. It was a text-book case of detonation damage. It NEVER pinged! I used 89 octane midgrade for the 223,500 miles I owned the bike. (damage discovered by the next owner) I just knew it was using oil and had lots of leak-down. Had three cracked pistons (each a broken ring land between the first and second ring, on the exhaust side.) The entire inside of the combustion chambers looked like they had been shot peened. YPYMATYC.

[david_yancey]

I have 105,000 miles on my 99 LT, the last 30k running regular with no problems, plenty of power, and plugs looking like they should and I cross mountains all the time (Cascades) with no pinging or performance issues ...it just works for me, but then I am not hard on the bike either as this thing is a ticket monster even without being heavy on the throttle.

[SCltc]

I experienced severe engine damage on my '99 LT. It was a text-book case of detonation damage. It NEVER pinged! I used 89 octane midgrade for the 223,500 miles I owned the bike. (damage discovered by the next owner) I just knew it was using oil and had lots of leak-down. Had three cracked pistons (each a broken ring land between the first and second ring, on the exhaust side.) The entire inside of the combustion chambers looked like they had been shot peened. YPYMATYC.

$1.20 more per tank for supreme? I won't risk it..... you?,,,

[rkimmel2]

I experienced severe engine damage on my '99 LT. It was a text-book case of detonation damage. It NEVER pinged! I used 89 octane midgrade for the 223,500 miles I owned the bike. (damage discovered by the next owner) I just knew it was using oil and had lots of leak-down. Had three cracked pistons (each a broken ring land between the first and second ring, on the exhaust side.) The entire inside of the combustion chambers looked like they had been shot peened. YPYMATYC.


If that quarter million mile figure is correct, I will take my chances. Riding about 12000 miles a year, that means that I may have a problem in 19 years or so! And you are the only poster to actually experience LT detonation damage. The cost of premium in MD is about $.30 more than regular meaning that if I have the same "bad luck" as you, when I am 80 years old I will have saved about $1900.00 and need a new or rebuilt engine. I'm shakin in my boots. Oh yeah, I forgot that the above poster never suffered the damage, it was discovered by the next owner who tore down an engine with 223,500 miles and expected flounder rather than bait fish. The cost of discovering the "problem" by the tear down was probably more than the cost of fixing it.

[Ron_Kendall]

Here is a whole lot of info on gas, additives, etc. & it's effect on engines.

Clicky, clicky here: www.bmwscruz.com/service/gasoline.pdf (http://www.bmwscruz.com/service/gasoline.pdf)

[mcnut]

On my second LT 02 136k 05 now has 40k
on the bottom of fuel lid a note said minium 89
which I run all the time except when pulling
bushtec then I use premium no problems so far

that is my 2cents

[dshealey]

I experienced severe engine damage on my '99 LT. It was a text-book case of detonation damage. It NEVER pinged! I used 89 octane midgrade for the 223,500 miles I owned the bike. (damage discovered by the next owner) I just knew it was using oil and had lots of leak-down. Had three cracked pistons (each a broken ring land between the first and second ring, on the exhaust side.) The entire inside of the combustion chambers looked like they had been shot peened. YPYMATYC.

Just like all four of my pistons! Did you see my pictures? Mine was not from using low octane though, I always used premium. It was another reason.

[rkimmel2]

Just like all four of my pistons! Did you see my pictures? Mine was not from using low octane though, I always used premium. It was another reason.


Wait a minute! If your pistons looked like the pistons on the 234,000 mile bike, we are back at square one. Perhaps his damaged pistons were from the same non-octane related cause as yours.

I guess the lesson is to use what you want and don't be surprised when a problem with many possible causes comes up.

[david_yancey]

For what it's worth, I just completed a 2900 mile trip with my wife and decided to run premium (91-93 octane depending on the state) during the entire trip. I typically run 55-70 mph (I think 100 kph at 3000 rpm is the sweet touring spot for economy) and got 62 mpg several times where I would only get around 55 mpg on 87 octane regular. I didn't think I would notice the difference much through the passes but I was wrong, it was noticable being 2-up and traveling from Washington State to Glacier, Yellowstone, Tetons, and back though many passes in Idaho/Oregon, it made the difference. Looking back I was getting that before I dumbed down to regular but I'll drink the good stuff from now on.

[azpilot06]

Proving once again was BMW wrenches have known for years.

The cheapest thing on a BMW....is the rider.

[Bmyrrh]

What are you riding David? There is LESS thermal energy available in higher octane fuels, not more. It takes more of a higher octane fuel to do the same amount of work. In general, running the lowest octane that does not cause pre-detonation provides the most possible power and mileage. The only exception to that involves engines with knock sensors that retard the timing when using a fuel that would other wise cause pre-detonation: they achieve better mileage and more power with a higher octane fuel (up to a point) because a low octane fuel that causes "pinging" essentially causes the engine to de-tune itself to avoid damage.

Whatever you're riding must have a knock sensor.

[Morley]

The only exception to that involves engines with knock sensors that retard the timing when using a fuel that would other wise cause pre-detonation: they achieve better mileage and more power with a higher octane fuel (up to a point) because a low octane fuel that causes "pinging" essentially causes the engine to de-tune itself to avoid damage.

Whatever you're riding must have a knock sensor.
Not entirely true. When an engine experiences detonation you are not getting the power you should since the air/fuel mix is detonating before the piston has completed the compression stroke which works against the normal engine rotation. This results in a large loss of power and an increase in fuel consumption.

[Bmyrrh]

Well of course! That's why I said: "I said In general, running the lowest octane that does not cause pre-detonation provides the most possible power and mileage."

I suspect you missed that. . .

[david_yancey]

All I know is that the difference between 85/87 and 91/93 octane was more noticable than I realized and my 99 K1200LT had more power and better ecomomy during the trip. I had switched to regular over a year ago when a "pushed it too far and desperate for fuel" gas stop on one trip was out of the higher octanes and I filled up with regular. I thought it hadn't made much difference overall but I was wrong, that's all.

[Bmyrrh]

If it is indeed an LT, with the increased power and mileage you've experienced using the correct fuel, the odds are that the engine has been pre-detonating much of th etime on the lower octane fuel and you just haven't heard it. That's not unusual or unlikely: you really only hear very severe pre-detonation as the classic "marbles in a can" sound. the engine is being damaged well before you hear it.

[jayjacobson]

Yeah, since these bikes don't have a knock sensor, and given the price of maintenance and repairs, it would seem foolish to risk damaging the engine to save a few bucks per tankful.

I have used regular in both my LT and GT without any noticeable issues. But the engine knock, if present, might not be loud enough for me to hear.

[Silverhair]

My takeaway here is running regular fuel is false economy given risk and meager savings returns.

I also understand not all premium fuels are equal in quality.

Morton's BMW service shop notes there are "Top tier" brands whose premium fuels are noted for quality & performance. I don't have the list handy, but Chevron (w/techroline), Texaco & Shell are noted as "top tier."

Exxon, Sunoco (top tier in Canada only), BP, and all the local economy chains (Sheetz, Wawa) in my area are not.

I normally run Exxon premium (close proximity to home), but have noticed the engine seems happiest with a tankfull of Texaco.

[Bmyrrh]

The "top tier" list is available at www.toptier.com

Apparently it relates to additive mixes, including detergents, and therefore would have most of its impact in terms of avoiding fuels system and valve train problems from varnish and carbon build-up. Seems like a good reason to use them to me.

I noticed, however, that the Top Tier standard includes at least 8% ethanol and no more than 10% ethanol. The only reason I can think of for that is environmental, not engine related.

I guess I never have understood the zeal to use a lower octane fuel than that recommended by the manufacturer. Unless one believes that either BMW engineers have no idea how their engines work, or they are somehow in league with gasoline companies to sell higher octane fuels, it's probably reasonable to assume that they specify fuel grade for a valid reason.

[Voyager]

The "top tier" list is available at www.toptier.com


What do palletizers have to do with gasoline?

[Morley]

fuel related articles
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/columns/c_d_staff/larry_webster/your_car_is_a_temple_so_put_in_the_good_stuff_column/(page)/1

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/30/AR2007083001430.html

The "list" as of 07.
TOP TIER Gasoline Retailers:

QuikTrip
Chevron
Texaco
MFA Oil Co.
Conoco
Phillips 66
76
Entec Stations
Shell
The Somerset Refinery, Inc.
Kwik Trip / Kwik Star
Aloha Petroleum
Tri-Par Oil Co.
Turkey Hill Minit Markets
Mileage Stations
Chevron Canada
Shell Canada
Petro-Canada
Sunoco Canada

[Bmyrrh]

Voyager, sorry about that! It's www.toptiergas.com

And that's why one should not work form memory at my age!!!

[Voyager]

Voyager, sorry about that! It's www.toptiergas.com

And that's why one should not work form memory at my age!!!

Trust me, BTDT.

Voyager