Shoot or don't shoot.

[motorman587]

My partner did a a traffic stop. Asked for the usual, DL, registration and insurance. I was on the passenger side looking in. When the driver goes into the glovebox and reaches for the paperwork......................................................................

[Lonewuff]

Damn John,

In that first photo I thought it was a Delta 10. Had to take a double take. So how old are their kids? :histerica

[motorman587]

It was a dumb aSS college student, forget that it was in there. Claims his cousin, put it in there. Ya, right. We scared the crap out of him as he scared the crap out of us, or me. I was done after that.

[Ted Shred]

What was it loaded with?? PEZ:D

Buddy of mine play war games with "Air Soft" guns. They shoot little plastic pellets.

Has an AR15 and a 9mm pistol. They look exactly like the real thing...

[cfell]

One thing for sure, he wouldn't let THAT cousin ride with him again...

[Big_E]

I think I would have at least beat the crap outa him for the mess in his car that his daddy's money is prolly paying for.

[motorman587]

I think I would have at least beat the crap outa him for the mess in his car that his daddy's money is prolly paying for.

Some how I do not think his daddy was paying for that car. It was POS caprice with the rims and tires worth more than the car. :)

[gunny]

Golly!

I can imagine the heart rate change.

Dummy should have at least warned you or made mention of it. I have a CC and sometimes there is one like that (the real McCoy, not a toy) in my glove box. I've never been pulled over when packing but would first do my best to set the man at ease best I could, then enlighten him that I had a CC permit and that I did indeed have one. Not need for stupidity to turn a bad situation real bad.

By the way, in the glove box is a poor storage place for a handgun, or the registration for that matter.

Did said student get a close look at the rifling inside the barrel of your SIG?

[pkpr1998]

I think if the LEO's would start shooting then asking questions, we wouldn't have such blantent disrespect for the law like we do now.

Tasers, what a joke! Use the guns, then you will get the thug's attention!

[JATownsend]

I think if the LEO's would start shooting then asking questions, we wouldn't have such blantent disrespect for the law like we do now.

Tasers, what a joke! Use the guns, then you will get the thug's attention!
Heh, Brett take a DEEP breath! The stupid kid had a PLASTIC gun! I suppose you have never done anything that would have ever spooked a LEO.

I suspect Motorman and his pard had an anxious moment... :eek: but, to start shooting would have been a bit of an over reaction, don't you think!?

Officers are or should be trained to expect the unexpected...most civilians, especially our young, have not been so briefed.

As far as blatant disrespect goes, many feel there are too many laws. It’s getting more difficult to tell the good ones from the BAD!! :rolleyes:

[motorman587]

Did said student get a close look at the rifling inside the barrel of your SIG?


I can say he will not do that again. I have pulled folks with CC only after seeing the permit and them saying, I have it in my pocket. They too, get a ear full of Motorman.

[DaveDragon]

I can say he will not do that again. I have pulled folks with CC only after seeing the permit and them saying, I have it in my pocket. They too, get a ear full of Motorman.

John, from your perspective and years of experience:

What is the best way for CC holder to notify a LEO that he is in possession of a FA when stopped and asked to produce DL?

I keep my DL behind my CC in my wallet so the LEO can see the CC, and ask if he feels the need.

[bob_menton]

In SC, if you are carrying, you must notify the officer (in an official police stop) that you have a CCW permit, and you are carrying, BEFORE he enters your license plate number into his computer. The penalty for not doing so is loss of the CCW permit.

When it was first passed in SC, the CCW law required you to notify the officer that you had a CCW permit before he entered your info in his computer, whether you were carrying at the time or not. That's been changed - now you must notify only if you're carrying.

- Bob

[motorman587]

John, from your perspective and years of experience:

What is the best way for CC holder to notify a LEO that he is in possession of a FA when stopped and asked to produce DL?

I keep my DL behind my CC in my wallet so the LEO can see the CC, and ask if he feels the need.


First thing out of your mouth if you are carrying. I do not mind, folks carrying, that is what keeps this county free, but I am at that age, don not need any surprises.

Example, Officer states, I pulled you over for speeding, blah, blah, blah,

You say," I have a permit and have a loaded gun on etc..................... with hands are on the steering wheel. After that I would ask if you want registration, license, and insurance. Just do what the officer wants. Some may over react, some may not care. No quick movements.

[motorman587]

In SC, if you are carrying, you must notify the officer (in an official police stop) that you have a CCW permit, and you are carrying, BEFORE he enters your license plate number into his computer. The penalty for not doing so is loss of the CCW permit.

When it was first passed in SC, the CCW law required you to notify the officer that you had a CCW permit before he entered your info in his computer, whether you were carrying at the time or not. That's been changed - now you must notify only if you're carrying.

- Bob

A lot of deapartments have computers and run tags at red lights to see if it is stolen and if the registered owner has warrants or valid license. We do.

[gunny]

Some surprises are sort of nice. Like when my daughter called to tell me that I was gonna be a grandpa.

Some ain't, like what John ran into. That could have been very bad.

Glad everyone went home and not to the jail, hospital or morgue.

[ahpd1992]

If Im carrying off duty and get stopped I tell the LEO right away. I learned this the hard way.

I was a rookie riding my MC home after working midnight shift. I had a 20 mile commute on I90 which was once again under construction. I hit the shouder to pass someone (my fault I knew it was a no no) only to see the state police where all gathered under an overpass :histerica "wolfpacking" for exactly the law I just broke. Anyway they waved me over to the shoulder, here were about 6 of them, I pulled over and as the trooper approached I heard him yell "gun" and the distinct sound of a gun clearing his holster.

You see I was very tired after my shift and I tucked my .38 snubbie in my waistband as usual, but in my tired state I neglected to untuck my shirt which would have covered the gun. I kept my hands on the handlebars of the bike and shifted into neutral as fast as I could, then put my hands on my head as ordered. I yelled that I was a police officer, and while one tropper screwed his pistol in my ear another got my wallet and verified my credentials.
No harm, no foul, my bad and I learned a lesson, but lucky for me there were a lot of them I think if it was a lone trooper things might have been different.

Motorman I bet that was an exciting stop, and glad nothing bad happened. I always err on the side of caution and let the LEO know Im a cop and if Im carrying or not. Its up to them what they gonna do and Il do as told in the situation.

Tom

[motorman587]

I listen to the tape, I tape all my stops and still had the recorder on has I went to back this motor up, this car had pulled just in front of my stop.


There was a question mark when I yelled "gun?" to my partner. The clear plastic confused the crap out of me.


It was near the end of shift and I was pretty much done. Had to take a breather.

[grifscoots]

I've been told by a friendly cop, and have followed this advice, that when telling the stopping officer that you have a CCL and the location of your weapon to NOT look in the direction of where the weapon is. When I'm driving my cage, the weapon is in the pocket in the door. I don't look at the pocket in the door while telling him. The reasoning is, if you look, you could conceivably beat the stopping officer to the draw. For some strange reason, they don't like that.

[pkpr1998]

Mr J, I have never given an officer any reason to be suspicious or frightened. With that said, I HAVE given them reasons to pull me over, such as speeding, speeding and more speeding!

We had a guy here in Chattanooga that was stopped, ordered out of his car, he obliged, he was ordered to not re-enter his vehicle, upon the Officer's order, the suspect walked around the rear of his car and to the right door (window was down) and reached in even after the office had given him other instructions, as he reached and came out with what appeared to be a handgun, he was shot and killed by the officer. Justifiable!

Now, IMHO, if the suspect would have OBEYED the officer he would still be alive today! The officer was cleared and one more scumbag off of the streets.

Yes, this may sound harsh to some, but if these perps would do as instructed by the LEO's, they would stop putting my life, other's lives, the LEO's and their own life in danger.

[hschisler]

Certainly, there must be "one best way" to notify a police officer that you are carrying, and where it is? Is there no uniformity between states/cities on this?

In a previous thread that discussed this question it seemed every officer had his own preference as to how to be notified, or even IF to be notified. ???

[Lonewuff]

States that issue CHP's have their own rules about informing law enforcement if you have a weapon on you. If you are traveling it is always a good idea to see which states your state has a reciprocity agreement with to insure you can carry and their requirements. Texas for example requires that you produce your CHP when asked for ID. As a curtesy I always tell them before they ask and I go reaching for it that I am carrying and have a CHP. One thing I learned from my last renewal class you should always keep in mind "Not everyone out there believes that civilians should be allowed to carry a weapon...and some of them (not very many anymore) wear a badge" so insure you do it right where ever you go. When it comes to guns I know I didn't take or give many chances.

[kdog]

Certainly, there must be "one best way" to notify a police officer that you are carrying, and where it is? Is there no uniformity between states/cities on this?

Evidently not.

Here in AZ you don't need to say anything unless asked. In fact, the CCW instructors will advise you NOT to say anything about a CCW or if you're carrying, unless you're specifically asked.

[kdog]

Speaking of which, my shiny new AZ CCW permit just arrived in the mail today. :D

[motorman587]

Speaking of which, my shiny new AZ CCW permit just arrived in the mail today. :D


That is fine. Do not say anything which I believe is stupid. I pulled two people over with guns in the car. One in the glovebox the other in the transmission hump. Both got yelled at as the first one told me a gun was in the glovebox as he reaches in the glovebox box and the other is fumble for his DL when I see his permit and ask if he is carrying. He says yes tells me where it is. He had orders yelled at him. Hands up out of the car etc.......... Stupid stupid stupid. What had happened if I see a butt of weapon, as he is reaches for it and I unload a couple of rounds. You are dead and I say that he was reaching for a weapon. So I suggest to tell the officers and if you are saying this to funny I do not see the humor. I almost shot two today. I go home to my family, each and ever day. It even may get you out of a ticket, have let people go for packing and telling.

[kdog]

I hear you. Having a CCW is a double-edged sword. On one hand, you're legal to carry. On the other hand, you're treated like a criminal if you do. Not complaining, mind you. I see your point, and I don't have a better way to solve it.

[motorman587]

Seriously, I could careless if you are armed or not. I just want to know. I had two stops with guns today( I am too fat and old for that kind of excitement) and the people thought it was no big deal. IT IS A BIG DEAL WHEN YOU ARE REACH TOWARDS THE FIREARM, I believe they did not mean it, how do I know that? I would be justified to shoot, but sure would be easier if that person just told me. Believe me, I respect your right to bear arms, I have no problem with that and me.

[kdog]

I've been told by a friendly cop, and have followed this advice, that when telling the stopping officer that you have a CCL and the location of your weapon to NOT look in the direction of where the weapon is. When I'm driving my cage, the weapon is in the pocket in the door. I don't look at the pocket in the door while telling him. The reasoning is, if you look, you could conceivably beat the stopping officer to the draw. For some strange reason, they don't like that.
You know, that actually doesn't make any sense if you stop and think about it. If you were going to draw against the cop, you'd say the piece is in the glove compartment, and then whip the piece out of the door pocket. Meanwhile, the cop is all warm and fuzzy because you're not looking at the glove compartment. Doesn't sound too bright to me. The only thing that makes any sense is keeping your eyes focused on the cop and tell him where your gun is and don't look anywhere else until he tells you to.

Am I thinking right, Motorman?

[motorman587]

That is all fine, but all I can say is the eyes don't kill me, the hands do. So I b watching the hands. And when someone tells me they got a gun and start reach for it on a stop, I get kind've fun. It is hard see eyes for me cause u r sitting in a vehicle.

[rmg08057]

Ok Joel, you are so law-abiding.....but how come the bike still has NY plates on it! Ha ha.

[Bobnoxous]

Since it's illegal to carry a weapon in your car in the socialist state of CA, I've been told never to tell an LEO if you have a weapon in the car. If they search and find it, you get yelled at and get a ticket, but you'll get a ticket if you admit to carrying one anyway.

I had an interesting talk with a weapons trainer who trained a lot of people, many of them cops, and in all his years, he said he only knew of one person who got busted for carrying a weapon in their car, and that's because they admitted to having one. If you're cool, the LEO has no reason to worry about you drawing on them, and you have some ability to protect yourself should you be attacked by someone who, strangely, doesn't abide by the "no guns outside your house" law.

I think it'd be nice if we got back to the 1st amendment (that pesky constitution) and a percentage of the people are always carrying. It shouldn't cause LEOs to freak out just because they see one. Be prepared, sure, but that would be the norm, not a panic. I realize it'd be nice for LEOs if guns were a rarity, but since they cannot be everywhere and protect everyone, people should be able to defend themselves.

[motorman587]

I am all for the people to defend themselves, but if you are a dumb a$$, forget you got a gun in the glove box, where your registration and insurance card is or your are caring your permit next to your driver license and surprise the cop, then except a gun or yelling in your ear.

[kdog]

Since it's illegal to carry a weapon in your car in the socialist state of CA,
Wrong.

Traveling with Firearms in California
HANDGUNS
California Penal Code section 12025 does not prevent a citizen of the United States over 18 years of age who is not lawfully prohibited from firearm possession, and who resides or is temporarily in California, from transporting by motor vehicle any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person provided the firearm is unloaded and stored in a locked container.

The term "locked container" means a secure container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock, combination lock, or similar locking device. This includes the trunk of a motor vehicle, but does not include the utility or glove compartment. For more information, refer to California Penal Code Section 12026.1.

SHOTGUNS AND RIFLES
Nonconcealable firearms (rifles and shotguns) are not generally covered within the provisions of California Penal Code section 12025 and therefore are not required to be transported in a locked container. However, as with any firearm, nonconcealable firearms must be unloaded while they are being transported. A rifle or shotgun that is defined as an assault weapon pursuant to Penal Code 12276 or 12276.1 must be transported in accordance with Penal Code section 12026.1.

Source: http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/travel.php

[kdog]

Ok Joel, you are so law-abiding.....but how come the bike still has NY plates on it! Ha ha.
http://www.dgrin.com/images/smilies/uhoh2.gif



No, actually I'm legal now. But thanks for thinking of me, Ralph. :D

-joel

[Bobnoxous]

Wrong.

Traveling with Firearms in California
HANDGUNS
California Penal Code section 12025 does not prevent a citizen of the United States over 18 years of age who is not lawfully prohibited from firearm possession, and who resides or is temporarily in California, from transporting by motor vehicle any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person provided the firearm is unloaded and stored in a locked container.I realize it's not illegal to carry firearms in a vehicle. If you couldn't, it'd be the same as banning them entirely since you couldn't get it from where you bought it to where you live. No government has been quite that bold at breaking the constitution, yet.

The law does ban you from having a gun in your vehicle in a manner that would allow you to use it for protection, the logic being that you might also use it for offensive purposes. Of course, for some reason, politicians think that criminals will obey these laws, so law-abiding citizens shouldn't care about being made helpless.

[motorman587]

See, I would have not cared if those guns were loaded or not load in the two stops I did. I believe folks have a right to bear arms and I also understand if someone wanted to shoot me they would. But I do not like surprises and will continure to tell folks to tell before. Hands on the wheel and "Hey officer, I am a packing".

Not, I have gun the glovebox as I reach or hop out of the car fumbling through IDs and the officers sees the permit. Common sense.

[Ron_Kendall]

About 5 years ago I let my son borrow my car for a weekend trip with a couple of cousins...a week later I opened the glove box & saw a 45 pistol:eek:...it turned out to be a BB gun...I gave my son & nephews a lecture on the what if's...I trust my son, but not one of his cousins....& I kept the gun.

[petepeterson]

This is really very easy,,,,, When you get a concealed carry permit, the class covers all your requirements.....Soooooo, when stopped follow protical, if the cops gives you grief just smile and tell him to read the fu*king manual.....Some people think cops have some special powers given them by God.... They are officers of the law thats all... Government employees....If you get stopped for speeding then keep on topic,,, Follow the guidlines of your state, if the cop gets off on a tangent, simply tell him to write the ticket and you smile....... The young man with the toy gun should have laughed and stood his ground......He broke no laws, clear plastic gun with orange barrel!!!!!! Get a grip :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Bobnoxous]

I can understand it being a surprising and scary moment. When surprised with a gun, the LEO needs to make a judgment on whether the weapon is being used in a threatening manner. They have to make a split second decision, and they could get it wrong, especially since they're really interested in protecting themselves. Hence, it's stupid to surprise them.

With the scarcity of guns these days, just seeing a gun can be deemed more threatening than if guns were more common. If 10% of the vehicles pulled over had weapons, dealing with weapons would be more standard practice, and laws and procedure would be developed for dealing with this, hopefully in a more manageable manner. The right to carry (except in areas that have abrogated the constitution) should be balanced with protecting law enforcement.

I don't think guns should be drawn simply because someone has a pistol holstered on their hip. Maybe the LEO has their hand on it ready to draw, or be ready with the taser (however deadly they can be, they're less deadly than a gun), until the weapon is set aside during the stop. I don't really know the best way to deal with it. It just seems that it's too big a deal right now.

That said, I reiterate, it's stupid to surprise an LEO with anything that looks like a gun. As for the orange tip, it's easy to paint one on if you wanted to try and get an advantage on someone. I wouldn't put any faith in that.

[wsteinborn]

Missouri has the CCW permit on the driver's license right above the photo. And it is in the computer so when they run the license they see the "endorsement".

However, when I went in to get my new license the lady recommended I get the CCW printed on a State ID and not the license, so you don't freak out the clerk cashing your check at the grocery store.

That backfires because the dispatcher will issue an "approach with caution" when they see the endoresement, which freaks out the copper.

I go stopped today for a "Performance Award" and told the trooper he might get an "approach with caution" because of the permit. He asked a lot of questions (what, where, etc) and seemed unduly worried. He settled down when i told him I was an ex-officer, and I also told him it isn't the person legally carrying with a hard-to-get permit, it is the people without the permit he should be worrying about.

Hopefully he "got it".

[Bobnoxous]

I go stopped today for a "Performance Award" and told the trooper he might get an "approach with caution" because of the permit. He asked a lot of questions (what, where, etc) and seemed unduly worried. He settled down when i told him I was an ex-officer, and I also told him it isn't the person legally carrying with a hard-to-get permit, it is the people without the permit he should be worrying about.

Hopefully he "got it".I suspect it was the "ex-officer" that calmed him down, not the realization that people who carry legally are not the real danger. People just have a fear of guns. They're simply too uncommon. For experiment sake, next time don't tell them you're an ex-officer, and let's see what happens.

[motorman587]

This is really very easy,,,,, When you get a concealed carry permit, the class covers all your requirements.....Soooooo, when stopped follow protical, if the cops gives you grief just smile and tell him to read the fu*king manual.....Some people think cops have some special powers given them by God.... They are officers of the law thats all... Government employees....If you get stopped for speeding then keep on topic,,, Follow the guidlines of your state, if the cop gets off on a tangent, simply tell him to write the ticket and you smile....... The young man with the toy gun should have laughed and stood his ground......He broke no laws, clear plastic gun with orange barrel!!!!!! Get a grip :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


He was reaching into the glovebox to get the gun or paperwork???????? I guess you could read his mind cause he said, "I getting my paperwork". If you look at the picture with gun in the glovebox you can not see the tip also thrugs half painted the guns to look like toy guns, seen a safety bulletin on that one.

Unless if you have a badge, ID card saying you are LEO, your gun and you will be seperated, until the stop is over. Your said gun will be unloaded and place into the trunk in a car as you leave. If it is on your body, it will stay on your body and your hands will be place on the hood/rear of vehicle. Another officer will be called.

[petepeterson]

He was reaching into the glovebox to get the gun or paperwork???????? I guess you could read his mind cause he said, "I getting my paperwork". If you look at the picture with gun in the glovebox you can not see the tip also thrugs half painted the guns to look like toy guns, seen a safety bulletin on that one.

Unless if you have a badge, ID card saying you are LEO, your gun and you will be seperated, until the stop is over. Your said gun will be unloaded and place into the trunk in a car as you leave. If it is on your body, it will stay on your body and your hands will be place on the hood/rear of vehicle. Another officer will be called.


Is that what Florida concealed carry says???????????? That last paragraph you wrote says your putting my legal gun in the trunk,,,, Well if the law says I can carry it then I will carry it and you can call the whole force down there :cool: My first and only obligation is to inform you of my permit and that I am armed,, YOU should realize from the history of Florida law and crime statistics that me with a permit and weapon are NOT your enemy!!!

When the stop is over my weapon will be where ever the law says I can carry it,,Its not really up to your interpatation...I always abide by the rule of law, you should too...........regards Pete

[andy]

Unless if you have a badge, ID card saying you are LEO, your gun and you will be seperated, until the stop is over. Your said gun will be unloaded and place into the trunk in a car as you leave. If it is on your body, it will stay on your body and your hands will be place on the hood/rear of vehicle. Another officer will be called.

I find that very interesting. If I interpret that correctly then you will treat a law abiding citizen like a criminal because he is law abiding and is having a permit and tells you (s)he has a gun with him/her.

Please, even if this sounds like baiting, itis not! Suppose the following situation:

traffic stop for whatever reason. You walk up to the car, and the driver has his hands at the wheel/handlebars and tells you: "Good day officer, I have a concealed permit, and the weapon is in my shoulder holster. ..." The whole in a friendly yet firm tone. Informing you that the driver/rider of the vehicle has a gun.

You are telling me that at this point just because he has a license and a gun without any hostile moves you put them outside with their hands on the hood? Have done that often? I know if that would happen to me I would file an official complaint for being treated like a criminal and in fact being a law abiding citizen.

[kdog]

Hmm... I was assuming the extreme action of pulling you out of your car, hands on hood, frisking and waiting for a backup is the response when you DON'T tell him in advance you're carrying, and he sees one in the car anyway.

How about some clarification here, motorman?

Thanks,
-joel

[motorman587]

Pete and Andy, I know the law says and I understand the sitation, but until the sitation is controled the officer is charge. I understand that you have a permit and the legal right to carry, but the law states that I may stop and frisk for weapons if I believe there is weapon. Frist stop, the guy tells me there is a gun and the second I see the permit. I go and will go home each night to my family and please file as many complaints as you can, just cause you have a permit, I will treat you as a armed person and will defuse the situation. Hands on the car, I will unload your weapon, place in the trunk etc................ I am not treating you as a criminal, but for my safety, big difference. If you do not understand, or not attempt to understand then this post is closed.

[motorman587]

Hmm... I was assuming the extreme action of pulling you out of your car, hands on hood, frisking and waiting for a backup is the response when you DON'T tell him in advance you're carrying, and he sees one in the car anyway.

How about some clarification here, motorman?

Thanks,
-joel

Again, see the post I just entered. If you tell me I see a gun I will react. I will not go to my car/motorcycle knowing that you have a gun in the car while I write/print the ticket. That is just plain stupid. The permit is a just a piece of paper and the officer does not know you. You believe that people with permits never have committed a crime??? You may be legal to carry, but once an officer is in the mixed, you must follow his rules. In Florida you can not carry a concealed weapon in the police department??? Even with a permit, then why is a traffic stop any different and then it is just me and you??? Please.

[motorman587]

Is that what Florida concealed carry says???????????? That last paragraph you wrote says your putting my legal gun in the trunk,,,, Well if the law says I can carry it then I will carry it and you can call the whole force down there :cool: My first and only obligation is to inform you of my permit and that I am armed,, YOU should realize from the history of Florida law and crime statistics that me with a permit and weapon are NOT your enemy!!!

When the stop is over my weapon will be where ever the law says I can carry it,,Its not really up to your interpatation...I always abide by the rule of law, you should too...........regards Pete


Sir, I understand that and respect that, but you got to understand and that officers do not know you. You can carry the gun where you wish, but as an officer is dealing with you he too has a right to make it safe for him. The constitution will back him on that also. He can get passengers out if there is a gun in the car, legal or not etc............ It is for his safety....

[andy]

Sir, I understand that and respect that, but you got to understand and that officers do not know you. You can carry the gun where you wish, but as an officer is dealing with you he too has a right to make it safe for him. The constitution will back him on that also. He can get passengers out if there is a gun in the car, legal or not etc............ It is for his safety....

Hmmm, doesn't that sound awfully single sided? What about my safety? You are telling I have to trust the officer carrying a gun, but the officer can treat me like a felon even though no crime was commited? I know there are less officers going haywire, but please don't tell me that no officer ever has gone nuts and killed innocent or unjustified. Please note that this is not if or whether any ofiicer ever did the above, but much more a question of equality.

[motorman587]

Hmmm, doesn't that sound awfully single sided? What about my safety? You are telling I have to trust the officer carrying a gun, but the officer can treat me like a felon even though no crime was commited? I know there are less officers going haywire, but please don't tell me that no officer ever has gone nuts and killed innocent or unjustified. Please note that this is not if or whether any ofiicer ever did the above, but much more a question of equality.

Andy,
You have confronted officers before, I remember the SSN incident, which you felt wronged. If you have a gun on you and I ask you to, "Let me see your hands" and you do not comply, that is not good. Sorry, and I am not just trying to be the "above the law", etc..........

I sure if I was in Iran, Baghdad, and someone was walking down the street with a gun, but had a permit, how would he be treated.



I do believe there are more cops shot, then cops gone bad. I suggest you read the laws about "stop and frisk", and "traffic stops".

[andy]

Andy,
You have confronted officers before, I remember the SSN incident, which you felt wronged.

You feel asking an officer of the law to comply with the law is "confronting an officer" ? But, funny that you mention that. Guess what? I *WAS* wronged and the offending officer has an entry in his permanent record regarding asking for a SSN during a traffic stop without due process. And it was just that I did not feel it is worth further pursuing the case that it did not get out of hand even further. Not the traffic stop mind you, the aftermath is what we are talking about.

If you have a gun on you and I ask you to, "Let me see your hands" and you do not comply, that is not good. Sorry, and I am not just trying to be the "above the law", etc..........

That was not the question. My assumption was , if you go back and read my post that the driver has his hands in clear sight an the steering wheel and makes no threatening moves.

I sure if I was in Iran, Baghdad, and someone was walking down the street with a gun, but had a permit, how would he be treated.

<sarcasm>Last time I checked neither you nor I live in Baghdad and the day to day situation in FL cannot really be compared to a typical day in Baghdad, now can it? </sarcasm>


I do believe there are more cops shot, then cops gone bad. I suggest you read the laws about "stop and frisk", and "traffic stops".

Yes I do believe the officers have every right to protect their live and health. Yes I do believe every law abiding citizen of this country has the right that his rights are not trampled unnecessary.

[Morley]

just cause you have a permit, I will treat you as a armed person and will defuse the situation. Hands on the car, I will unload your weapon, place in the trunk etc................ I am not treating you as a criminal,
If he has a permit and has informed you that he has a weapon in the car, then I don't believe you have the "probable cause" to enter his vehicle. Nor do you have the right to touch his weapon if he has made no move to pull it out or use in in any way, shape or form. I've looked at the FL statutes regarding concealed carry permits and can find nothing giving the police those rights. Point them out?

[kdog]

I am not treating you as a criminal
Really. So what would my boss think if he drove by and saw me spread eagle on the hood of my car? I'd probably lose my job.

[motorman587]

You guys are making me work for this. But fun, you are making me look up stuff and it is very interesting how the outside looks at LEOs.


"" Whenever any law enforcement officer authorized to detain temporarily any person under the provisions of subsection (2) has probable cause to believe that any person whom the officer has temporarily detained, or is about to detain temporarily, is armed with a dangerous weapon and therefore offers a threat to the safety of the officer or any other person, the officer may search such person so temporarily detained only to the extent necessary to disclose, and for the purpose of disclosing, the presence of such weapon. If such a search discloses such a weapon or any evidence of a criminal offense it may be seized. ""


And anybody with a dangerous weapon is a threat to the safety of the officer. It will be made safe.

[motorman587]

Also under Stop and Frisk and Probable Cause,

(1) In General

In addition to stopping a citizen (traffic stop) an officer can frisk an individual when the officer reasonably suspects that he or she is in danger of phyiscal danger. (You tell me there is gun in the car and or I saw the permit that says you are armed). I can also search your bags and contains you have.

Just because you have a card that says you can legally carry a dangours weapons does mean you will not harm me. Courts have ruled in this, the Terry stop, etc...............

[motorman587]

and I found this about searching vehicles about weapons.


http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0091-4169%28198324%2974%3A4%3C1265%3AFAOSAT%3E2.0.CO%3B2-8&size=LARGE&origin=JSTOR-enlargePage


Here is another.

http://www.fedcoplaw.com/html/searchandseizure_1.html

[motorman587]

Look how this cop died. Off duty and was shot by another officer...........very sad.


http://www.odmp.org/officer/19149-police-officer-christopher-a.-ridley

[motorman587]

You feel asking an officer of the law to comply with the law is "confronting an officer" ? But, funny that you mention that. Guess what? I *WAS* wronged and the offending officer has an entry in his permanent record regarding asking for a SSN during a traffic stop without due process. And it was just that I did not feel it is worth further pursuing the case that it did not get out of hand even further. Not the traffic stop mind you, the aftermath is what we are talking about.



That was not the question. My assumption was , if you go back and read my post that the driver has his hands in clear sight an the steering wheel and makes no threatening moves.



<sarcasm>Last time I checked neither you nor I live in Baghdad and the day to day situation in FL cannot really be compared to a typical day in Baghdad, now can it? </sarcasm>




Yes I do believe the officers have every right to protect their live and health. Yes I do believe every law abiding citizen of this country has the right that his rights are not trampled unnecessary.



If your hands are on the steering wheel and you are still armed. You will be asked to stay point until I have another officer on scene. Again because you have premit does not make you "not" armed and dangerous. You are not criminal and will not be treated as felon. You will be treated as someone armed.

Please to a google search about vehicle stops and searches.

[kdog]

If your hands are on the steering wheel and you are still armed. You will be asked to stay point until I have another officer on scene. Again because you have premit does not make you "not" armed and dangerous. You are not criminal and will not be treated as felon. You will be treated as someone armed.

Please to a google search about vehicle stops and searches.
Armed yes, but dangerous? A carry permit instantly proves the holder has passed a background test, has never committed a felony, never been in a domestic dispute, never been convicted of drug crimes, etc, etc. I realize you said carry permit holders have committed crimes. But how many of them volunteered their permit and location of the gun, who then went on to attack the officer. That sounds rather far-fetched. Why on earth would somebody who wanted to kill you start out by telling you where their gun is? That just doesn't make sense.

John, I really appreciate your candor here and input. However, what you say does confirm what my CCW instructor said. Never inform the officer that you have a CCW or are carrying a weapon unless specifically asked. From a citizens point of view, there is absolutely nothing to be gained by volunteering this information up front, and a whole lot to lose.

[bob_menton]

Joel, I wish we could do that in SC. But in this state, if you're legally carrying, you MUST inform the officer before he punches your info into his computer.

I was once stopped on my motorcycle for speeding (38 in a 25 zone). I immediately told the officer I had a CCW permit. He asked if I was presently armed; I said "yes". He said, "Where is it?" I said, "In an inside-the-pants holster, underneath my shirt, underneath my light jacket, underneath my heavy jacket". He said, "Be sure it stays there". I said "Yes sir". After this conversation, I was treated like any other speeder. Quite different from Motorman's approach.

- Bob

[motorman587]

You guys make me sound like I some crazy gun toten cop. Each stop will be different. If I had stopped you and your gun was on you, in a holster, under clothing, I too would probably keep it there. I know I said I would have spread egale on the back of the car calling for back up. Depends how readily available the weapon is. Come on, center hump out of a holster??? You would do the same.

Remember my two stops. One in the glovebox and the guy reaches for it and the other with old man with the gun on the transmission hump. Both were readily available for use.

The guy with gun on the hump stated to me that he was never in a gun class was grandfathered in. So a permit to me is telling me gun.

[kdog]

Joel, I wish we could do that in SC. But in this state, if you're legally carrying, you MUST inform the officer before he punches your info into his computer.

That's too bad. In AZ, you only need to show it if asked. This thread has been very useful to me.

My CCW instructor also owns the gun shop near my home. He lives 60 miles away in Lake Havasu. Many of the Havasu cops are ex-Californians, and are very skittish working around armed citizens. He tells the story of getting stopped one day on his way to the gun shop by one such cop who asked him if he was armed. He says yes, cops puts him on the hood, takes a gun off his person, throws the loaded clip down on the street (that's nasty) and gets wide-eyed when he realizes there are dozens of guns all over the guy's pickup. Reinforcements show up, instructor gets frisked a couple of more times, and several cops are crawling through the truck tossing guns around including some expensive shot guns. They finally decide the guy's done nothing wrong, so let him go. The instructor then pulls out another piece he had the whole time in his crotch and says "nice work fellas."

Hey, that brings up another question for Motorman. How do you return the weapon back to the owner without putting yourself in danger?

[motorman587]

In the two above cases, one was made safe and placed in the trunk. The other made safe and placed in the pick up tool box. The pick up driver was told to once he left us he could retrieve his weapon.

[SilverBuffalo]

I've been following this thread with interest choosing to listen and learn.

My policy has always been to keep my hands on the handlebars/steering wheel
while informing the officer about my permit and firearm,
I've only had to do this a couple of times and did so out of respect for the officer
as well as for my safety.

Now I can understand John's position with a gun laying on the transmission hump
or in the glove compartment with the registration,
I think I would secure the weapon also.

However If I am ever humiliated by an officer (hands on the hood etc)
for informing him that I have a lawfull permit and weapon,
that will be the absolute last time I will ever extend that courtesy
unless it is "required" by law.

I have never been asked to surrender my weapon at a traffic stop and I think I would become very concerned about the officers intentions if I was asked to do so.
Like Andy already said, what about my safety?

It's a tough job and I understand John's desire to go home every night,
but in my opinion you stand a bigger risk disarming lawfull citizens,
it would certainly piss me off and I'm pretty stable.

There might just be somebody that's not going to let you pry his cold dead fingers from his weapon.

[gunny]

One of the problems with todays society is that too many times it comes down to that us against them/citizens against the cop attitude.

There are some cops who treat a citizen, any citizen whether they have done something wrong or not, may even be the victim, like dirt. That really sets the citizen up for his next encounter with a cop. Yes a cop, I refuse to call them law enforcement cause it just isn't so. They don't enforce the law, the courts do that. A cop calling himself a law enforcement officer is almost always a prick.

Speaking of the SSN thing, last traffic citation I got, the cop wanted it. I asked him why he needed that information and I was informed that it was to identify me, I told him that if my drivers permit wasn't enough ID, he needed to take that up with someone else as unless he was planning to make a contribution into my account, he wasn't getting that number. On the bottom of my original card, it plainly states that a SSN is not to be used for identification.

[Morley]

Also under Stop and Frisk and Probable Cause,

(1) In General

In addition to stopping a citizen (traffic stop) an officer can frisk an individual when the officer reasonably suspects that he or she is in danger of phyiscal danger. (You tell me there is gun in the car and or I saw the permit that says you are armed).
Just because there is a weapon in the car does NOT mean you are in physical danger. That is paranoid thinking and by that reasoning, I am in physical danger when an officer is anywhere near me because he/she has a weapon strapped to their side
detain temporarily, is armed with a dangerous weapon and therefore offers a threat to the safety of the officer or any other person, the officer may search such person so temporarily detained only to the extent necessary to disclose, and for the purpose of disclosing, the presence of such weapon.
I believe you need to think on this one. You have no right to search the vehicle for a weapon because the person has already "disclosed" that they have a weapon and is leagally licensed to have it. And I do believe thay are referring to someone that is not licensed to carry.

In your first link it states that if the officer possess a REASONABLE belief that the suspect is dangerous AND may (not can) gain immediate control of a weapon.
Again if I am stopped for a moving violation and inform you that I have a license and weapon in the vehicle, it does not immediately give you the right to search the vehicle or lay hands on said weapon.
Because one is armed it does not immediately follow that they are dangerous.
If you do as you have stated before I think you are setting yourself for some legal ramifications.

[motorman587]

First I respect your opinions on what you are saying. I have enjoyed looking up information for you. There are somethings that will not change and I understand that. But what I gather from reading you comments is that because you have a permit you want a "cop" to decide on not a "routine traffic stop", between who is armed and who law abiding citizen. I have the legal right to make that traffic stop safe. You can threaten to file formal complains and to sue. But at the end of the day I go home. You must remember that because you have a permit, you are still armed, the armed part does not go away with the permit. To me that means you are legally to carry and that is it.



Traffic StopsPosted by The Chief - January 19th, 2007 - Published in General Police Chat, Police Tactics



The recent murder of Florida Highway Patrol Sgt.Nicholas Sottile on January 14, 2007 made me think about the often overlooked dangers of the traffic stop. There is no other Police function that is as dangerous as the routine traffic stop for several reasons.

When stopping a random car you have no idea who is in the car or what the person(s) in the car have recently been involved in. That car that is stopped for a speeding violation could be occupied by a law abiding citizen or a armed and dangerous violent wanted criminal who will evade capture at all costs. We need to get away from the “routine traffic stop” mentality and always assume that the car we are stopping could potentially be occupied by an armed subject.

The traffic stop is the time for sound Officer safety tactics and not a time for simply going through the motions. Officer safety tactics are taught and refreshed because they work and they are a tool for keeping you safe. Officer safety tactics have changed very little over the years because the traffic stop is still pretty basic in that you stop the car and then you approach the car on foot.

The first Officer safety tactic to utilize is to choose a location for the stop that is beneficial to you. An example would be that a stop in a well lit parking lot would be better than a stop in a dark alley. Obviously we rarely have the luxury of choosing our stop locations but it is something to consider. I always say that every little thing we can do to give us the advantage is worth the effort. We are not getting paid to play football where if we make a mistake we get to line up and try again.

Car positioning is the next area which requires tactics to aide you. We don’t want to park too close to the car being stopped because we may need to perform a vehicle maneuver in the event the traffic stop goes bad very quickly. If the driver of the car being stopped jumps out of the car with a gun we may need to drive our cruiser into the armed subject to end the threat. The point when you stop the car and you are still seated in your cruiser is an extremely dangerous time. You are in a position of disadvantage because your gun is in it’s holster, you are sitting down, and your car door is shut.

There has been discussions over the years as to what an Officer should do if he/she is seated in their cruiser during a traffic stop and an occupant of the car exits and starts firing at the Officer. What would you do? I have often thought of this scenario and I would draw and shoot back through my cruiser’s front window because it would take way too much time to open the cruiser door, exit the cruiser, draw my weapon and fire. You may want to ask your departments training staff about this and hopefully conduct some training on this aspect of the traffic stop. Every department has a different idea on tactics and that is fine as long as those tactics are trained.

Notifying your dispatcher about your traffic is highly important in case you need assistance. I myself have been guilty of not calling in my traffic stops from time to time. The best case scenario is to call the stop in prior to activating your overhead lights so that when the car stops you can exit your cruiser quickly which gives you the advantage. The less time you spend sitting in your cruiser the safer you will be. Because of the dangers of traffic stops it would be beneficial to have 2 Officers instead of 1.

Criminals are less likely to attack 2 Officers for obvious reasons. With 2 Officers you are now able to cover both sides of the stopped car and watch for suspicious movements. 2 Officers are a team and a team performs better than a single individual.

Now that the car has been stopped we have to approach the car to make contact with the occupants. At this point I advocate having your hand resting on your holstered firearm for 2 reasons. If an occupant of the car decides to attack, you will be able to draw your firearm quicker because your hand is already holding the grip/handle. The 2nd reason is the occupants of the car may see you with your hand on your gun and this might make them reconsider a violent encounter with you. If a criminal sees that you are extremely thorough with your tactics they may be reluctant to challenge you. Many criminals are not stupid and they can observe an Officer and understand an Officer who is tactically sound and one who has let their guard down.

As you approach the stopped car you should be watching the occupants for suspicious movements. Obviously the occupant who is moving around a lot or making furtive movements would be suspicious. If I am approaching a car and I get a funny feeling about the occupants I will ask that the driver put his hands on the steering wheel. Hands are what kill and I want to know what the hands are doing at all times. The occupant making furtive movements with his/her hands should be addressed immediately.

I like to get close to the side of the stopped vehicle when I am approaching because I can see inside the windows better and the occupants would have a harder time shooting at me because of my position. If the stop is at night we will have the car lit up with our spot light and we will use our flashlight to further illuminate the occupants. All of these things that we have done so far are putting us in a position of advantage and hopefully the criminal will understand this and not try anything stupid.

While talking with the occupants we will now continue to watch for suspicious movements and also scan for weapons inside the car. Many Officers have spotted the grip of a handgun laying partially concealed on the floor board, under a leg, between 2 seats, etc. If the traffic stop is done quickly the occupants may not have had time to properly hide a weapon before you arrived at their window.

This is also the time to execute command bearing when dealing with the occupants of the car. Later I will write an entire post on the topic of command bearing but for now just think of it as your presence and the way you carry and conduct yourself. Command bearing conveys a message to the people you are dealing with that you are in charge and you are sure of yourself and your abilities. Command bearing does not mean that you are rude and abrasive which is something we don’t want on the traffic stop. Being polite and positive with the occupants of a car can work wonders for you.

Walking back to your Police cruiser after making the initial contact with the occupants is another dangerous time. Many Officers turn their backs to the stopped car and walk back to their Police cruiser. You should never turn your back on the occupants of the car because you will become an easy target at that point. I walk backwards until I get to the rear of the car and then I will turn and walk at an angle so that I can watch the occupants. An occupant of a car has less of a chance of hurting us if we are watching his/her movements throughout the stop.

I want the occupants of the stopped car to know that I have my eye on them. If I am writing the ticket or using the radio and the occupants look back at me, I make sure that they see that I am looking at them even though I am performing another task at the time. I advocate standing outside your Police cruiser when writing the ticket or running the occupants for warrants. At this point in the traffic stop we still want to be in a position of advantage and that means standing outside your Police cruiser.

When issuing a ticket I like to keep the driver in the car unless I feel there may be narcotics on the driver. I feel more comfortable with the driver sitting down rather than getting out of the car to sign the ticket.

The bottom line with this post is that traffic stops are and always will be the most dangerous aspect of Police work. Traffic stops are unpredictable and can turn bad very quickly. Officer safety is a tool that will assist you in making traffic stops safer.


University of Alaska article on traffic stops.
University Police Department

Traffic Stop Safety Tips
All Traffic Stops Are Dangerous:
Each year many officers are killed and thousands more are injured while performing traffic related duties. Every stop, even the most common traffic violation, has the potential for danger.

There is no such thing as a “routine traffic stop”. During traffic stops an officer can come across uninsured drivers, drivers with suspended/revoked driver’s licenses, drivers impaired by alcohol and/or drugs, people in possession of illegal firearms and drugs, and drivers and passengers with arrest warrants. These are just a few of the reasons why officers are trained to place a great deal of emphasis on their safety and take a defensive posture at a stop until the risk of confrontation or injury is diminished.

What Can You Do if You Are Stopped?



If you are stopped by a police officer, here are some guidelines that both drivers and passengers can follow to help reduce the risk the danger to the officer and get you back on your way.

Always carry proper identification: a valid driver's license, proof of vehicle registration and current proof of insurance.
When being signaled by a police officer to stop, look for the nearest place to position your vehicle as far out of the lane of traffic as possible. Generally you should always pull to the right side of the roadway or to where the shoulder is wider, unless otherwise directed. Be sure to signal your move to the side of the roadway by using your turn signal.
After you stop, stay in your vehicle and keep your seat belt fastened until the officer has seen you wearing it. If you are asked to exit the vehicle, do it slowly.
Roll down your window all the way, so the officer can communicate with you.
Remain calm, and please stop using your cell phone and/or turn down your vehicle’s radio so that the officer can speak with you. If there are passengers, also ask them to remain quiet and cooperative with all reasonable requests. Please do not let anyone in your vehicle make threatening statements or gestures to the officers.
Please understand that there are times when officers have to speak loudly because they are near traffic and other noisy conditions. The officers are not yelling at you or trying to intimidate you.
If it is dark out, you can turn on the interior lights of you vehicle when the stop occurs and before the officer reaches your vehicle so that the officer can easily see that all is in order.
You should understand that most officers will use a patrol car's headlights and spotlights during darkness for safety purposes. It helps illuminate the interior of your car.
Keep your hands in view, preferably on the steering wheel. Ask your passengers to place their hands in plain view such as on their laps.
Do not duck down or make sudden movements, especially toward the floorboard, rear seat, or passenger side of the vehicle. The officer may interpret these movements as an attempt to hide illegal items or to obtain a weapon.
Do not immediately reach into your glove box, console pocket, or backseat. Wait for the officer to request your license, registration and proof of insurance. If the documents are out of reach, tell the officer where they are and reach for them slowly. Otherwise, keep your hands on the steering wheel.
Give the officer a chance to explain the violation. Most officers are trained to ask for identification and registration first before providing an explanation of the stop. This is to avoid debating the reason for the stop prior to acquiring this necessary information.
Answer all questions honestly. Information pertaining to prior arrests or traffic violations is easily verified via the police dispatcher
If the charge or citation is not clear, ask for an explanation in a respectful manner.
Don’t be alarmed if another police officer arrives at the stop. Police officers often stop to see if the officer needs any assistance during a traffic stop.
There is no need to make repeated apologizes or to elaborate on the offense. Simply be civil and polite. If there are any special circumstances surrounding the incident, provide a straight, honest and up-front explanation.
Avoid provoking the officer or showing off in front of other occupants. Do not interfere with the questioning or the arresting of other occupants. Comply with the officer first and then, if needed, seek an explanation.
Do not argue with the officer at the roadside. If you disagree with the citation or the officer's actions, discuss it later with the law enforcement agency, an attorney, or the judge.

[kdog]

Funny, I must have missed the part about dragging CCW Permit holders out of the vehicle and slamming them on the hood. :confused:

[Bobnoxous]

Very informative discussion on the details of a stop John. But, it still comes down to whether legally carrying a weapon should be viewed as an inherent risk to the officer. John, you've already said you support gun rights, so let's just accept that for now.

If people are allowed to carry, open or concealed, then I shouldn't get freaked out when I see people carrying a gun. I wouldn't presume they're about to shoot me. In fact, since others are carrying guns, they'd be quite likely to get shot if they tried attack someone, hence the idea of gun ownership.

Now if an officer walks into a coffees shop and one of the patrons has a gun, that should also be acceptable. The officer wouldn't try to disarm them because it would make them nervous, right? They have a right to carry the weapon, and you don't get to disarm them because you feel you may be deemed a target because of your uniform.

The difference between a traffic stop and the coffee shop is that the officer has initiated the contact. That would increase their odds of being a target. How much, I don't know, but I think it's safe to presume this.

If it's okay to disarm people when an officer initiates contact, what about when people are demonstrating in a park or something. Let's assume they've gotten the permits and have a legal right to be there (They have a constitutional right without the permit, but we don't really care much about that silly document. Focus.). Police are in the area to maintain order. If they approach people, do they now have the right to disarm them?

If a voluntary act on the part of the officer gives him additional legal rights to disarm citizens who have a legal right to carry, then anyone can be disarmed at anytime just because an officer decides to. There really isn't a right anymore at all.

I understand that there are risks in being an officer, and an officer is interested in mitigating those risks, but you cannot supplant the law to your own choosing, especially if your job is to enforce it. Some risks are inherent in the job, and you accept those risks by accepting the job. I don't know if disarming people is illegal, but if it isn't, then it seems officers can disarm whomever they want. If you believe that, then I don't see how you can say you support the right to carry. It seems like a conflict to me.

[indianut]

I recall being told when I got my Fl CCW permit I was told that I DO NOT have to inform the police I have a weapon when pulled over. The CCW permit is much more than a "piece of paper", it tells anyone who looks at it that I have VOLUNTARILY had my fingerprints sent to the F.B.I, and have passed a criminal background check. If my legally carried gun was taken from me and unloaded and put in my trunk after I was put on the hood of the car my attorney would be joining us on the side of the road. Cops love to say that they want to "go home at the end of the day". I think we ALL fall into that category. Respect is a two way street! If you want to get it, then you have to give it. I do alot of Cross Country Motorcycle travel. I have never been arrested. The thing I fear the most on the road is Over Zealous Police.

[motorman587]

http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/365356

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080117230344AAP3DZh

http://www.expertvillage.com/videos/pulled-over-weapons.htm

http://legallyarmed.com/trafficstopprotocol.htm


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IF i CARRY A CONCEALED WEAPON with a permit and am pulled over by police, do i have to notify them I carry?
and....although the ss190 round is not for civilian sale, it can be obtained by collectors if it was distributed before it ban, is it illegal to load into a civilian "five-seven" AND CARRY AROUND? (the armor piercing round)
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it's always in your best interest to tell the cops you have a gun, always in a nice way. I'm a retired sergeant and always have. it's called self preservation. If I stopped you and saw the concealed weapon you'd have a locked and cocked .45 pressed firmly against the back of your head. if you looked to me like your hands were moving toward it they would never get all of the brain matter out of the interior of your car, and I'd have the ONLY story about what transpired, before YOU expired.

I'd have my ccw permit handy so I didn't have to dig around a lot to get it. That decreases the chances of the need for the executor of your will to sell your collection!!

Armor piercing rounds are against the law everywhere in the US. You might be able to OWN them, but you can't carry them. Not only will you get arrested, but your gun will be seized and most likely destroyed. As a detective following up on your arrest, I'd write a search warrant for your property for other guns and additional ammo, seize everyting as evidence, and make you go to court to recover them. So it's always best to play nice. It really makes life simpler.

You evidently DON"T have a ccw because if you did you'd know the answer to each part of your question. They cover that in the class!!

Good luck, and try not to get shot. It hurts like hell.
1 week ago
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[motorman587]

I recall being told when I got my Fl CCW permit I was told that I DO NOT have to inform the police I have a weapon when pulled over. The CCW permit is much more than a "piece of paper", it tells anyone who looks at it that I have VOLUNTARILY had my fingerprints sent to the F.B.I, and have passed a criminal background check. If my legally carried gun was taken from me and unloaded and put in my trunk after I was put on the hood of the car my attorney would be joining us on the side of the road. Cops love to say that they want to "go home at the end of the day". I think we ALL fall into that category. Respect is a two way street! If you want to get it, then you have to give it. I do alot of Cross Country Motorcycle travel. I have never been arrested. The thing I fear the most on the road is Over Zealous Police.



Please clink on the link and look step number #4. I am sure your attorney has this marked in his favorites.

http://legallyarmed.com/encounterscd.html

[motorman587]

"A traffic stop involved a legally armed citizen can be dangerous", wait the article stated dangerous and that would be armed, so armed and dangerous, but wait you are legal. Some of you should by the CD."



(2005-03-10) Legally Armed Traffic Stop Protocol CD

A traffic stop involving a legally armed citizen can be dangerous if the citizeen does not know the correct protocol. New CD tells what to do.

Over thirty-seven states issue a license or permit to carry handguns. With reciprocity on the rise [states that honor other another state license or permit to carry a weapon], more citizens are traveling with a firearm. One aspect of armed travel that every legally armed citizen should know is the correct protocol when stopped by a law enforcement officer in a traffic stop. A computer CD is now available from www.legallyarmed.com that shows the correct protocol when a legally armed citizen is in a traffic stop. Produced with the help of the police, this CD should be seen by every legally armed citizen who travels with a firearm in their vehicle.

About Us: Legallyarmed.com is a web site for legally armed citizens and those who wish to become legally armed citizens. Articles, statistics, and products are available for legally armed citizens. Founded by firearm instructors who believe that more information about legally armed citizens and information for legally armed citizens, can help the 6,500,000 legally armed citizens in the U.S.A.

Contact Info: Legallyarmed.com
P.O. Box 11543
Murfreesboro, TN 37129
legallyarmed@legallyarmed.com
www.legallyarmed.com

[motorman587]

Here are some other views about unloading a gun and placing it in the trunk even if you legal. Read the view from the citycopDC, he will pull his weapon put on your knee and handcuff the person. I thought I was ruff with just spread eagle.

http://forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78430



I know some will have issues, but that is why I have survived 20 years on the street. Some will never understand.

[DaveDragon]

Its always easy to sit back and armchair quarterback while making statements of how one would react if ordered by a LEO to do this or that.

Until you've walked a mile, or twenty years of miles in their shoes; you don't know how you would choose to handle a traffic stop with a armed driver and/or passengers.

Yes we all have rights and they should not be impinged by anyone. However, when stopped by a LEO, for whatever reason, Listen and Obey the LEO's orders and chances are everyone goes home at the end of the day.

Don't do anything to increase the LEO's stress or situational anxiety. It's just not the smart thing to do.

Let the LEO do his job and move on. Afterwords, if you feel you have been wronged then contact a lawyer and address it.

When stopped on my bike (I don't drive a cage any longer), both my hands stay on the grips until I'm told to do otherwise.
When asked to produce my Lic & Reg, I also hand the LEO my CWP.

And both hands go back to the grips.

One LEO asked me where the Gun is located and I told him, "In the tank bag."
He asked "Do you mind if I place it in your top case?" To which the standard answer is "Not at all Sir!"

He reached in the tank bag, grabbed the pistol and placed it in the top case.

He visibly relaxed, dropped his shoulders and we chatted about the performance award I was to receive.
He then just gave me a warning and cut me loose.

Like many here, I have combat experience, and I understand the situational stress dynamics associated with Stop & Search situation among hostiles.

The LEO performing a stop and approaching the driver / passenger has more than enough stress on them at that moment, and I don't wish to be shot because I did something stupid.

[indianut]

Please clink on the link and look step number #4. I am sure your attorney has this marked in his favorites.

http://legallyarmed.com/encounterscd.html


Sorry John, but that info is generic and does not apply to FLORIDA LAW. Here is the FLORIDA LAW.


( 790.0[B]The licensee must carry the license, together with valid identification, at all times in which the licensee is in actual possession of a concealed weapon or firearm and must display both the license and proper identification upon demand by a law enforcement officer.

[motorman587]

Sorry John, but that info is generic and does not apply to FLORIDA LAW. Here is the FLORIDA LAW.


( 790.0[B]The licensee must carry the license, together with valid identification, at all times in which the licensee is in actual possession of a concealed weapon or firearm and must display both the license and proper identification upon demand by a law enforcement officer.


I'm talking about step # 4, which states,
"Be prepared to surrender the weapon to the peace officer if he or she requests it"

[info]

Florida?
I would assume everyone has a gun. :histerica

[Morley]

He asked "Do you mind if I place it in your top case?"
And THERE is the difference. He asked if he could move it. Motorman says "by god it WILL be put where I think it is safe and owner be damned" Not is actual words but SEEMS to be his attitude.

[Morley]

If I stopped you and saw the concealed weapon you'd have a locked and cocked .45 pressed firmly against the back of your head. if you looked to me like your hands were moving toward it they would never get all of the brain matter out of the interior of your car, and I'd have the ONLY story about what transpired, before YOU expired.

I guess he would just kill off whoever else was in the car too then? THAT is exactly the kind of "cop" everyone loves to hate.

[motorman587]

And THERE is the difference. He asked if he could move it. Motorman says "by god it WILL be put where I think it is safe and owner be damned" Not is actual words but SEEMS to be his attitude.


There is also a difference where Dave had told the officer he had a gun, had his permit out, was in zipped up tank bag and secured in holster.

Both stops I had the gun was readily available . Why would I signal the violator my intention??? In Dave's case he would have to unzip, and unholster vs. my hand is in the glovebox or just remove the towel. Remember the DC cop had been shot at with a guy that had a permit???

[motorman587]

Florida?
I would assume everyone has a gun. :histerica


I do not see the humor, and yes you treat as everyone is armed.

[motorman587]

I guess he would just kill off whoever else was in the car too then? THAT is exactly the kind of "cop" everyone loves to hate.



You should read all of his post and not just one. Just like a newspaper, print just what people want to hear so you can stir the point. Each stop is different and will be handled differently.

This is what DCcop stated,


"You think Im taking it a bit to far? Thats your opinion and you are entitled to it. However the scenario was poised as if he were riding ALONE. I have common sense, and if you were riding with your family obviously I would go through other means as not to frighten or alarm your family. However because I dont KNOW YOU or your family my one and only concern is the weapon(s) thats in that car. You will be inconviencied. If I was taking it to far, you would be face down on the pavement palms to the sky. "

[petepeterson]

Boy this is getting carried away trying to point counterpoint :)

Sarge157 or whatever is a shit talker,,,,he bravado comes with his time on job and rank NOT from what he's done.......

And it looks like allot of us watch to much tv.... This getting out, walking back wards and laying down doesn't happen unless the cops are doing a felony stop.. I will NEVER get on my knees for any cop ever,,,my choice, and no I'm not going to get shot :rolleyes:

Nobody is denying that a cops job ain't tough and stressful, but to most cops its just a good ol junkie Adrenalin rush nothing more.....Its a job with 7 1/2 hours of routine boredom punctuated 10 minutes of terrifying Adrenalin action!!!! :D

Now using DC as a reference point seeing as how anyone with a gun is either a cop or criminal is a piss poor example... North Carolina its legal to wear a gun on your hip so long as its not concealed, so screw the permit.... In my truck as long as the gun is in plain sight its legal,,I get pulled over I set it on the dash and have NEVER had a problem.....

If you cops are so worried about going home at night,, change jobs,,, there are allot more dangerous jobs than being a cop.......

We as a society are glad your there and are very proud of you!!! You are granted special responsibilities not special privledges... "" Protect and Serve""
When law enforcement gets too arrogant like the ATF did in Waco, bringing the camera crews to show on the evening news how bad they are, instead they got their asses kicked by a group of people who had never bothered anyone....

I always smile and am friendly when stopped.... If cop has bad attitude then mine will change,,but most are friendly back and our business is done quickly....I either get a ticket or I don't its not important enough to get upset over..with 1 being the highest from 1 to 10 a speeding ticket rates about a 15....relax gentlemen... none of you are living forever.............Pete

[motorman587]

Boy this is getting carried away trying to point counterpoint :)

Sarge157 or whatever is a shit talker,,,,he bravado comes with his time on job and rank NOT from what he's done.......

And it looks like allot of us watch to much tv.... This getting out, walking back wards and laying down doesn't happen unless the cops are doing a felony stop.. I will NEVER get on my knees for any cop ever,,,my choice, and no I'm not going to get shot :rolleyes:

Nobody is denying that a cops job ain't tough and stressful, but to most cops its just a good ol junkie Adrenalin rush nothing more.....Its a job with 7 1/2 hours of routine boredom punctuated 10 minutes of terrifying Adrenalin action!!!! :D

Now using DC as a reference point seeing as how anyone with a gun is either a cop or criminal is a piss poor example... North Carolina its legal to wear a gun on your hip so long as its not concealed, so screw the permit.... In my truck as long as the gun is in plain sight its legal,,I get pulled over I set it on the dash and have NEVER had a problem.....

If you cops are so worried about going home at night,, change jobs,,, there are allot more dangerous jobs than being a cop.......

We as a society are glad your there and are very proud of you!!! You are granted special responsibilities not special privledges... "" Protect and Serve""
When law enforcement gets too arrogant like the ATF did in Waco, bringing the camera crews to show on the evening news how bad they are, instead they got their asses kicked by a group of people who had never bothered anyone....

I always smile and am friendly when stopped.... If cop has bad attitude then mine will change,,but most are friendly back and our business is done quickly....I either get a ticket or I don't its not important enough to get upset over..with 1 being the highest from 1 to 10 a speeding ticket rates about a 15....relax gentlemen... none of you are living forever.............Pete


And is thisn't shit talking??????????

[kdog]

And is thisn't shit talking??????????

:D

Personally, I've appreciated your candor in this thread, and good on ya' for that.

-joel

[motorman587]

:D

Personally, I've appreciated your candor in this thread, and good on ya' for that.

-joel

Sorry, that was uncalled for. I am glad you appreciated my candor and I also appreciate your alls imput.

My point about comparing other cities is that each incident is different. And I can tell you a handgun on a dash would not be treated the same here.

It is funny how my views are claimed to be piss poor example, but yet the Waco incident was compared to arrogrant law enforcement to officer who use officer safety on a traffic stop. We have to treat every stop as the unkown.

[petepeterson]

Not if I can back it up..........And I love taking tests..............Pete

[petepeterson]

Motorman, nobody called your examples poor,I know I didn't.... The tone I perceived was that of condemnation or disdain for us low rent civilians.... We are all potential perps to you nothing more..........

Being stopped for speed is not important to all of us,,,Its just a ticket,, nothing life altering.....

You and me both know ATF could have arrested David Coresh(sp) any day of the week while he ran out in public....Its to bad they tried to make a training film and get publicity at the same time......Pete

[k1200lt]

Funny, I must have missed the part about dragging CCW Permit holders out of the vehicle and slamming them on the hood. :confused:

Hey Dog, You are not allowed to use a cops words against him. That is not fair. LOL. Always remember: The cop is always right, even if they are wrong.

[k1200lt]

Motorman, nobody called your examples poor,I know I didn't.... The tone I perceived was that of condemnation or disdain for us low rent civilians.... We are all potential perps to you nothing more..........

Being stopped for speed is not important to all of us,,,Its just a ticket,, nothing life altering.....

You and me both know ATF could have arrested David Coresh(sp) any day of the week while he ran out in public....Its to bad they tried to make a training film and get publicity at the same time......Pete
I don't REALLY think the situation back in Waco is a good example. Granted it could have been handled better, but what do they sya abot hindsight? And it being 20/20. That is armchair quarterbacking.

Still, back then a few whacko bible thumpers ran across a few equally whacko Law Enforcement 'agents'. And if Curly starts hitting Moe you know what the outcome will be.

[Morley]

I do not see the humor, and yes you treat as everyone is armed.
That is a piss poor way to look at the people you interact with. Going around treating everyone you come in contact with as if they were an armed felon is plain paranoid. Glad I don't live in Florida and have no excuse to go there ever again.
How many here from PA? How badly would a FL cop freak if he stopped someone up there during deer season? Gun rack in the cab of the pickup filled with rifles and hand guns :eek:

[motorman587]

Motorman, nobody called your examples poor,I know I didn't.... The tone I perceived was that of condemnation or disdain for us low rent civilians.... We are all potential perps to you nothing more.......

""Now using DC as a reference point seeing as how anyone with a gun is either a cop or criminal is a piss poor example... North Carolina its legal to wear a gun on your hip so long as its not concealed, so screw the permit.... In my truck as long as the gun is in plain sight its legal,,I get pulled over I set it on the dash and have NEVER had a problem.....""


Now I must have missed something.

[motorman587]

That is a piss poor way to look at the people you interact with. Going around treating everyone you come in contact with as if they were an armed felon is plain paranoid. Glad I don't live in Florida and have no excuse to go there ever again.
How many here from PA? How badly would a FL cop freak if he stopped someone up there during deer season? Gun rack in the cab of the pickup filled with rifles and hand guns :eek:


Glad you are not my partner. I guess we do not hunt down in Florida. We do not know who we are pulling over. Remember how some famous criminals got caught. Ted Bundy the Oklahoma bombing guy, there is a few more. We deal with the unknown. Yesterday, have a vehicle flee from me on a dead end street, driver bailed. Passenger, who was taken at first at gun point then to the ground with a taser. Again, we do not know who is in the car, and if you do not understand, then you do not need to apply.


Every wonder why an officer;

1. Puts a spot light in your mirrors and uses highbeams.

2. Calls in your tag, and runs it. If it is a high speed system, it will check if the owner is wanted.

3. Walks up to the car and checks the trunk to see if it is locked.

4. Stands to the side as he is speaking with you, so you have to look back at him.

5. If it is at night shines the flash light in the back seat to see how many passenger are in the vehicle.

6. Put your hands on the steering wheel.

7. Get your hands out of your pockets.

He is not doing this cause you his best buddy.
Remember carrying a gun is not a right but a privilege.

[Morley]

.
Remember carrying a gun is not a right but a privilege.
I think the cops should remember this themselves because it applies to them as well. Remember, police haven't always had their metal manhood to wave at people.
I have known several cops personally and none of them act the way you say FL police do and they get to "go home" every night too. Wonder why that is?

[petepeterson]

Remember carrying a gun is not a right but a privilege

Thats your problem right there!!!!!!!! Your mentality of the superior "Thin Blue Line"...... Its our RIGHT to bear arms,,, when the government gets to far out of line "We The People" will take it back...........I earned my right to bear arms,,,,,,,Nobody will ever take it away from me...........Semper Fi

[motorman587]

Remember carrying a gun is not a right but a privilege

Thats your problem right there!!!!!!!! Your mentality of the superior "Thin Blue Line"...... Its our RIGHT to bear arms,,, when the government gets to far out of line "We The People" will take it back...........I earned my right to bear arms,,,,,,,Nobody will ever take it away from me...........Semper Fi


I am sorry, I meant the CCW permit. And you are right about bear arms, but when will you understand that we do not know who we stop. It is not that hard to understand. What does Semper Fi have and anything to do with it. "Be all you can be, go Army."

[DaveDragon]

"Be all you can be, go Army."
Rangers Lead The Way!

I know it's irrelevant, but I earned the Right to say it too.http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

[motorman587]

Rangers Lead The Way!

I know it's irrelevant, but I earned the Right to say it too.http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif


I pretty much done with post. We continue to go round in circles and then somebody brings up something else. This thread has come taken it course. Done.

[DaveDragon]

Every wonder why an officer;

1. Puts a spot light in your mirrors and uses highbeams.

2. Calls in your tag, and runs it. If it is a high speed system, it will check if the owner is wanted.

3. Walks up to the car and checks the trunk to see if it is locked.

4. Stands to the side as he is speaking with you, so you have to look back at him.

5. If it is at night shines the flash light in the back seat to see how many passenger are in the vehicle.

6. Put your hands on the steering wheel.

7. Get your hands out of your pockets.

He is not doing this cause you his best buddy.

John My Brother, I understand and I know the answers to these questions.
I'm willing to bet the majority here do as well.

Some folks are never going to accept or appreciate your Candor. I do!

My Old Man was an MP MotorCop in the Army and for Birmingham PD.
The Ole Lady was a Patrolman / Dog Handler back during the Bull Conner Days, I'm sure that sucked.

I was raised by Cops, which means pretty much all of our friends were Cops or kids of Cops.

It was a safer time in America for Police then. People Actually Respected the Police, well most people did.

This debate is timeless, I've heard it all my life.

[petepeterson]

Dave Dragon,,, I hear what you are saying..... My dad was a Highway patrolman in California..... So was my uncle, my sister was a senior dispatcher in So. Cal. One of my foster kids did time in Raleigh on the PD... Now he's a Sgt. working security on a little island that was a nike site years ago.......... Pete

[axamax]

Since it's illegal to carry a weapon in your car in the socialist state of CA, .

How are you supposed to get it home from the shop then? On the Bus?

[Bobnoxous]

I already acknowledged it could be carried locked up. I was talking about carrying a weapon for defense, not for secured transport between 2 points.

[KMC1]

I'm with Motorman and Davedragon on this one.

1) Keep your hands on the bars/wheel.

2) Notify the Officer that you are carrying/transporting. In CT, when they run your plate, I'm told it also notifies the Officer that you are a permit holder. So, even if you are NOT carrying/transporting, you should inform the Officer as to your status.

3) Follow the Officer's instructions TO THE LETTER.

It's really very simple actually.

[Bobnoxous]

your status.

3) Follow the Officer's instructions TO THE LETTER.
As I've mentioned before, not every instruction given by an LEO is a command. If they say "open your top case", is it a command, or a request? I don't believe an officer has any legal authority to search your vehicle without your permission, unless he has probable cause. But he will say, in one form or another, "I'm going to search your vehicle", and if you don't protest, that is your consent. He will not word it like a question, because he doesn't want you to say no.

When you combine the methods officers use to get "consent", and the legal issues involved (which are way too complicated for everyone involved), you should not follow all commands without question, IMO. If you ask if it's a request or a command, and he says a command, okay, but not everything is a valid command. It's intentionally hard for a motorist to know the difference, and the fact that officers use techniques like this is one reason why people are losing trust in officers.

I know it'll piss off a lot of officers to have some smart mouth questioning their authority, even if done in a polite manner, and they'll do that assertive thing to "keep control". I realize they cannot tell the difference between someone who's not totally submissive because they want to make sure their rights are not violated, and someone who's just a dick and will become physically aggressive. They should also realize that the motorist cannot tell if they're dealing with an officer who has some respect for civil rights, or became a cop because he gets an adrenalin rush out of ordering people around.

Any stop is a conflict-type situation, and both parties play a part in trying to see that it's resolved without violence. I'm with an earlier post about recording everything. If an LEO says something is a command when there is no legal right to issue such a command, the only chance you'd have for corrective actions is to have a recording, and it's probably best if you do this surreptitiously, so if you do have a problem the evidence isn't forcibly taken from you.

I've heard many law enforcement bureaucrats (I'm not lumping all officers into the bureaucrat category here, just your typical talking head bureaucrat) justify cameras and recordings everywhere by saying "if you're not doing anything wrong, you shouldn't have any problem being recorded". A private citizen has some right to privacy. Anyone working in a public capacity, IMO, does not.

[KMC1]

In some respects, I'd question what you are hiding that you care whether or not you or your vehicle are searched, but in reality that's not the point you're making. I personally have no problem with an Officer checking my top case / trunk as long as he leaves the monkey, the midget, the bound & gagged college girl and the drugs I have stashed there alone. On the other hand, my comments are related directly to securing my weapon. If an Officer in the scenario you have presented decided to become abusive, at most I would request the C.O. on duty to be summoned. Otherwise you're at the mercy of the Police anyway aren't you? If you are taping the Officer and he's a maniac, and then finds the wire, you're gonna get tasered until that little popper thingy like they put in turkeys pops up outa your hind quarters. I think the chances of a permit holder getting into that kind of situation are slim for the most part anyway, since LEGAL gun owners / permit holders are the MOST law-abiding citizens in our society automatically. JM2CW

[petepeterson]

Bobnoxous,,,
Your right as to what the cop says to you, you have to listen and pay attention.... If you are told to get of your bike you simply remove the key and push the button.... All locked up, no permission given to search...And traffic violations,ie: speeding whatever... No one should ever willingly give up their 4th amendment rights on the side of the road........ A search warrant for specific items is required for search..... Just remember,, stop at all stop signs, don't run red lights, and never go more than 14mph over the speed limit, that way you cannot get arrested and give the cop a freebie search.... And NEVER be submissive when stopped!!! Be polite, respond as you are treated... Hold the control of the situation as neutral as possible.....
When asked to get out of my truck I roll the window up and lock the doors with the keys inside....I go sit in troopers car while I get my fix-it ticket, No traffic violations ever.... When done I use spare key to unlock door and leave.. I have never said yes to a search, never had anything showing from under a seat, I keep my vehicles clean on the inside so nobody can say "I thought I seen something"

Just respect the law, but damn, don't fear it.....All cops were in some other employment before they became cops..... The 12 week school did not endow them with any super powers or skills... Their ability to be good cops comes from their years of experience and their success at dealing with the public.......Regards Pete

[DaveDragon]

Bobnoxous,,,
Your right as to what the cop says to you, you have to listen and pay attention.... If you are told to get of your bike you simply remove the key and push the button.... All locked up, no permission given to search...And traffic violations,ie: speeding whatever... No one should ever willingly give up their 4th amendment rights on the side of the road........ A search warrant for specific items is required for search..... Just remember,, stop at all stop signs, don't run red lights, and never go more than 14mph over the speed limit, that way you cannot get arrested and give the cop a freebie search.... And NEVER be submissive when stopped!!! Be polite, respond as you are treated... Hold the control of the situation as neutral as possible.....
When asked to get out of my truck I roll the window up and lock the doors with the keys inside....I go sit in troopers car while I get my fix-it ticket, No traffic violations ever.... When done I use spare key to unlock door and leave.. I have never said yes to a search, never had anything showing from under a seat, I keep my vehicles clean on the inside so nobody can say "I thought I seen something"

Just respect the law, but damn, don't fear it.....All cops were in some other employment before they became cops..... The 12 week school did not endow them with any super powers or skills... Their ability to be good cops comes from their years of experience and their success at dealing with the public.......Regards Pete

Well said Pete.

[Bobnoxous]

Just respect the law, but damn, don't fear it.....All cops were in some other employment before they became cops..... The 12 week school did not endow them with any super powers or skills... Their ability to be good cops comes from their years of experience and their success at dealing with the public.......Regards Pete+1 on the "well said".