Final drive failures

[BMWROLLIN]

I need to hear from those of you who have actually had final drive failures. What are the sights, sounds, and sensations associated with a final drive failure. I have an 03 with 38,000 miles and I have started to notice a vibration I feel fairly certain to be coming through the drive line. Have inspected tire and rotated the rear wheel on center stand and do not detect anything yet. The vibration is of low frequency and repeating but not one you would associate with a deformity or ply separation in the tire. Planning a long trip the first of March and would like the issue resolved prior to the trip.

[c00k1e]

Take a deep breath.............

[c00k1e]

Get the beast up onto the ceneter stand.
Hold the wheel at 9am and 3pm
try to twist the wheel - push with one arm, pull with the other, back and forth
I put my ear on one of the bexes as well
There should be no movement, noise or anything other than the whole bike moving.
If anything moves other than the bike - start to worry

Now check the oil
drain it into a glass jar
if its jet black - worry

put a magnet in a plastic bag or glove into the oil, if it comes out with particles of metal - start to panic

check the drain plug - a little fuzz maybe ok - a lot of bigger bits - panic

finally, check the gator - if there is oil there - start cussing (oil isnt always there aparently, but has been for me within seconds of the drive failing, unless it is tranny oil, that needs fixing though as well, obviously)

Keeping my fingers crossed for you - let us know

[McAllister]

finally, check the gator - if there is oil there - start cussing (oil isnt always there aparently, but has been for me within seconds of the drive failing, unless it is tranny oil, that needs fixing though as well, obviously)

If there is oil at the gator or "boot" it's more likely to be from a leaking pinion seal, not related to the typical FD failure. It's an easy fix and not catastrophic or worth cussing about. It usually starts slowly as a weep that collects dust and dirt and looks bad, not the sudden dumping of FD oil "seconds before failure".

[c00k1e]

If there is oil at the gator or "boot" it's more likely to be from a leaking pinion seal, not related to the typical FD failure. It's an easy fix and not catastrophic or worth cussing about. It usually starts slowly as a weep that collects dust and dirt and looks bad, not the sudden dumping of FD oil "seconds before failure".

All I can go on is the 4 that have hapened to me.
3 with oil, one without

[jers99lt]

Here were my symptoms: http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29115&highlight=final+drive, plus other links within the thread.
I've found, by reading other accounts of failure, that there are a few parts that can individually fail and bring the final drive to its knees. Under K1200LT topics, search "final drive". You'll find an almost endless list of threads.
HTH
Jer

[DavidTaylor]

How many miles has it been doing this? If it's more than about 20, it's likely not the final drive failing. When they go they tend to go, not linger for a few hundred miles then fail.

[Jerrym]

I need to hear from those of you who have actually had final drive failures. What are the sights, sounds, and sensations associated with a final drive failure. I have an 03 with 38,000 miles and I have started to notice a vibration I feel fairly certain to be coming through the drive line. Have inspected tire and rotated the rear wheel on center stand and do not detect anything yet. The vibration is of low frequency and repeating but not one you would associate with a deformity or ply separation in the tire. Planning a long trip the first of March and would like the issue resolved prior to the trip.

The easiest and most effective way to check the rear drive is to have the oil analyzed. I had a 2005 LT with 41,000 miles and had no idea of any problems. I drained the oil in a jar and took it in and had it analyzed. Left it one morning and had a call the next day that I had better be doing something. It showed high iron and aluminum in it. The oil looked fine in the jar. I took it to the dealer and they opened it up and called and said the rear drive had to be replaced. Had it replaced under extended warranty. I was like you planning a long trip and it would have gone out on the road. By doing this you know if you have a problem before it ever shows up.

[vernvernvern]

I heard mine make a methodical rumble at 35 mph after turning off of an interstate and I thought it was something on the pavement, but about 5 more miles at slow speed the growling got worse and finally as I stopped the seal gave up and dripped black oil from the final drive on the rear wheel. My "03 LT only had 18,000 miles on the clock and was under warranty.

Now, I know to check the drain magnet for particles larger than just fuzz. Larger particles means you better fix it NOW!

Parts were under warranty for 2 years and after another 20,000 miles in a year I noticed large particles on the drain magnet so took it to the Dealer and they fixed it free. Oil stayed clean looking this time. I guess it would have gotten black had I not fixed it before it completely gave up. Now I have my fingers crossed to see if it'll go bad during the next 20,000 miles.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

[CalLT]

If you have Michelin tires, and if the vibration is most heard going around corners, it is probably NOT your final drive. More likely a symptom of Michelin tires.

[RonKMiller]

If you have Michelin tires, and if the vibration is most heard going around corners, it is probably NOT your final drive. More likely a symptom of Michelin tires.

There are no Michelin tires rated for the LT.

But I sure do wish there were.

[CalLT]

There are no Michelin tires rated for the LT.

But I sure do wish there were.

Sorry ... Metzelers are what I meant. I always confuse the two.

[NOGILLS2]

I was servicing mine and the oil was filled with "Glitter". I put the plug back in, removed the plug again and found "Chunks". Brought the bike in to the shop and found the race started to fail and one bearing was scored!

[used2jeep]

The easiest and most effective way to check the rear drive is to have the oil analyzed. I had a 2005 LT with 41,000 miles and had no idea of any problems. I drained the oil in a jar and took it in and had it analyzed. Left it one morning and had a call the next day that I had better be doing something. It showed high iron and aluminum in it. The oil looked fine in the jar. I took it to the dealer and they opened it up and called and said the rear drive had to be replaced. Had it replaced under extended warranty. I was like you planning a long trip and it would have gone out on the road. By doing this you know if you have a problem before it ever shows up.

Just bring the oil to the dealer in a jelly jar or something? Or do I need to find a laboratory somewhere?

[JCarver]

My 36k service was done by a reputable dealer at 34k as I had an upcoming trip. Nothing of note was observed or noticed. Bike ran much better than before.

A couple of months later the wife and I were returning from a rally (about 250 miles from here) and were approaching the street where we live. I turned the corner and noticed that it felt as though I had a low tire. Bike was stable, just some extra vibration from the rear. I thought I'd just try to limp on home and I did, only about 150 yards to go. But when I turned the corner into the drive I then noticed some instability with the vibration. I assumed the tire was totally flat. Got up the house, we got off and I looked at the rear tire. The tire was fine, but then I noticed some oil starting to drip from the rear drive. Knowing of the problem with the drive I had a very good idea of what had happened. I unpacked, took the bike into the shop, put it on the center stand and turnd the wheel. Now the oil really started coming out. The next day I got an appointment to take it into the dealer for repairs. They installed a new rear drive, of course, at my expense, and I've yet to have another problem with it. Got 8k on the new drive now and all seems fine, at least for awhile.


hth, tcars
John

[Jerrym]

Just bring the oil to the dealer in a jelly jar or something? Or do I need to find a laboratory somewhere?

You will have to take it to someone that has the equipment to test it. I took mind to Nebraska Machinery Co. in Omaha, NE., which is a Cat dealer that has their own laboratory or testing equipment. You will find a lot of truck service shops that can test oil or tell you where to take it. I do not understand why more people don't do this instead of worrying about their rear drive going out. It cost about 10 to 12 dollars and it is a sure check. I did mind ever 12,000 miles. On a BMW it should be done a bout every 6,000 miles.

[BMWROLLIN]

Thanks to all those who responded. None of you have described what I am experiencing so I can only assume that either I am imagining the vibration or that the final drive has found another failure mode in which to fail. It’s not the Metzler vibration which I have already experienced from the OEM Metzlers. No oil slick so far and no slop in the wheel. The bike was just in for service but checked the plug anyway and found no obvious particulate in the oil nor did I find even a trace of fuzz on the plug. So I am left in a quandary as to the origin of the vibration I am convinced is drive line related. I’ll continue to take short trips and pay very close attention for the symptoms all of you have described. Thanks again.

[Hackercraft792]

No problem with mine yet, but wondering what the trigger is for a Lemon Law lawsuit. What bothers me the most is the reason most of us are here and have purchased our 2nd or 3rd BMW is the quality and reliability. I have always felt so safe just taking off and riding anywhere anytime.

[CalLT]

Thanks to all those who responded. None of you have described what I am experiencing so I can only assume that either I am imagining the vibration or that the final drive has found another failure mode in which to fail. It’s not the Metzler vibration which I have already experienced from the OEM Metzlers. No oil slick so far and no slop in the wheel. The bike was just in for service but checked the plug anyway and found no obvious particulate in the oil nor did I find even a trace of fuzz on the plug. So I am left in a quandary as to the origin of the vibration I am convinced is drive line related. I’ll continue to take short trips and pay very close attention for the symptoms all of you have described. Thanks again.

I always rest my left hand on the final drive housing while spinning the wheel with my right hand. If you can't feel any roughness in your left hand, then it's probably not the drive.

[gglove]

I have not had any problems to date :D
That being said I worry about the final drive a fair amount :mad:

[Motomadman]

Mine went out on a short day ride on the 1st. Some vibration 300-400 miles prior to failure. Thought it was due too cupped tire. Got hosed by the dealer to the tune of $250 for a tire that I pulled and took wheel into service dept. Then on new years day I got a whiff of gear oil as I pulled up to a stop sign in town. Without even looking down I knew it was all over for the POS final drive. I think being my first BMW it most likely will be my last.

[Ted]

Craig - oh no - sorry to hear that:(

[rmg08057]

I have had the drive go twice on my bike. Both times there was an initiating incident after which I noticed the symptoms...I just didn't realize they were symptoms. The symptoms were a (at first) very faint catch or tick in the rear wheel revolving, definitely associated with speed, so eventually it was obvious it was the wheel and not the engine. The second time it was masked by a problem I was having with the muffler which was in the process of giving up the ghost. Slowly over about 100 miles in the first case and 500 miles in the second it got worse and worse, with intermittent stretches where it would disappear (I mean 10 miles or so), until it died the proverbial.

The initiating incident was the same in both cases, a change down from 4th to 3rd where I let the clutch out a trifle too fast and you could feel the change, it wasn't smooth, not bad, but enough to look back on and realize that was when the "catch" started.

In my two cases I believe the sequence of events was:
1. Slow wear on one/several/all balls in the race (speculation)...
2. Eventually got worn/damaged enough that an action that would normally not cause a problem at all (clunky gear change), began a sharp, irreversible decline in the condition of one/several of the weakest bearings.
3. The bearing then began to catch at some point in the revolution giving enough of a sensation that I could feel it.
4. 100-500 miles later...catastrophic failure.

For those that are thinking that I maybe induced the failures by banging about the gearbox, I really doubt it, as I tend to baby the down change on the bike, I am not a heavy user of downshift to slow the bike, I have always hated that thud of a downshift done a bit abruptly and not smoothly. When running hard, I tend to ride high in 2nd & 3rd and let the engine braking in the gear I am in help me, I wouldn't change from 3rd to 2nd for instance to slow me rapidly. I don't ride fast on straights, only in corners, so I am not changing gear a lot, just usually up one as I run out of 2nd and into 3rd as I come out of some corners.

So, to your question, a constant vibration is not my experience of the problem.The two clearest symptoms were:
1. The sensation you are feeling is a function of the absolute speed of the bike, not the engine revs i.e. the fast you are going, the more rapid the sensation, like you had a piece of metal in your tire and each revolution you could feel/hear it tick..tick...tick.
2. In a revolution it is not continuous (though if going really fast it may seem almost continuous), its a (sorry to over use it) tick...tick...tick.

[FREERIDE11]

:bmw: It seems to me that so many people have had issues with the final drive but, i have never experienced any problems with mine. I own a 03 BMW K12LT w/ 42k on it.I have changed my final drive fluid every 12k. How often to you service your final drives? What type of oil are you putting in the final drive?
Sounds to me that alot of these final drive problems are due to the fluid leaking for awhile staying trapped in the boot ,so its not easy to see and from this point the final drive is now running with the incorrect amount of fluid in it.

[c00k1e]

One failier was within 1,000 miles of a BMW rebuild - so none of the mentioned was likely.
Another was within 4k of rebuild, I was changing fluid and checking boot every week.
But I firmly believe that rebuilds are not as reliable as a new drive - at least that is what I am praying as I have just installed a brand new drive!!
I have just got hold of that strawbery milkshake oil - looks so good I could drink it!

:bmw: It seems to me that so many people have had issues with the final drive but, i have never experienced any problems with mine. I own a 03 BMW K12LT w/ 42k on it.I have changed my final drive fluid every 12k. How often to you service your final drives? What type of oil are you putting in the final drive?
Sounds to me that alot of these final drive problems are due to the fluid leaking for awhile staying trapped in the boot ,so its not easy to see and from this point the final drive is now running with the incorrect amount of fluid in it.

[Steve_R]

I never felt anything, I just walked out and found what you see in the middle picture (http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19029), while doing a pre-flight.

[chicco96]

As I can see is it the back wheel beering there is the problem. I am writing from Denmark so I hope you understand my English. If the beering failure the oil will drain from the unit and if first the oil have drained you have to stop before crashing the hole unit. I think we all have the same problem and here is the roule: Change the wheel berring each 30000 miles then you are sure that nothing happend with the final drive unit.

[Jerrym]

From the day I picked up my 2005 LT I changed the rear drive oil at 700 miles and after that ever time I change my motor oil (3,000 miles). I used Mobil 1 Synthetic 75W/140 gear lube. At 41,000 miles the drain plug never had anything on it the oil was a little cloudy. I never had any vibration any noise nothing to give me any indication of a problem but it seems to me a lot of LT's run about 40,000 miles and the rear drive goes. I just decided to have the motor oil, transmission oil and rear drive oil analyzed and that is when I was notified that I better have the rear drive checked. Motor and transmission was fine but the rear drive shown high wear and high iron and aluminum in the oil. The dealer said they would open it up but if nothing was wrong it would be my expense but if there was a problem my extended warranty would pay for it. When the mechanic open it up there was no dought it had to be replaced. The smaller bearing was turning on the aluminum shaft. He said it probably would have went another two to three thousand miles. I had the oil analyzed again at 12,000 miles and was told the rear drive showed high wear but nothing in the oil. I was told with the high wear the rear drive showed it would shorten the life but it did not show anything wrong. Seems like some get a lot of miles out of a rear drive and some do not. If you ride a LT it is a worry if you do a lot of long distance touring, which I do. I loved my LT but I got tired of not knowing if I was going to get home from every long trip. I know of several LT's that has had the rear drive oil analyzed and all show high wear. A friend of mind had the rear drive analyzed in his Gold Wing at 40,000 miles it showed very little wear and nothing in the oil. The oil had been changed at 20,000 miles then analyzed at around 40,000 miles. Having the rear drive oil analyzed every 12,000 miles should be in the BMW 12,000 mile check. This would catch a lot of rear drive failures from being on the road.

[Lumpy]

The final drive on my '99 has failed a second time (first at 42k and now at 72k) so I am a bit negative on the subject. This is ridiculous to me and don't understand why the failures are a mystery to BMW. It will probably prevent me from buying another. I bought the bike new in '00. All services performed religiously. After the first failure the final drive oil was changed with every oil change. The bike has never been ridden hard, have never downshifted, little two up riding as well. Very frustrated with this and it's keeping me from taking long rides. In comparison, I have an '84 Yamaha Venture Royale that I bought new in '86. It now has 122k and has it's original final drive. It has almost no wear. Oil is always clean when I change it. Never any engine problems whatsoever. I feel I could take this bike around the world and not the BMW. Obviously the final drive on the LT's is of a defective design, uses substandard metals, SOMETHING, but BMW does not address this. Seems like corporate suicide to me. BMW must know something about this drive that the company is not telling comsumers and this is what bothers me the most I guess. Sorry to rant here, it's just very aggrevating to me that a bike as fine as the LT is overall, that this problem with the final drive still exists.

[Jerrym]

The final drive on my '99 has failed a second time (first at 42k and now at 72k) so I am a bit negative on the subject. This is ridiculous to me and don't understand why the failures are a mystery to BMW. It will probably prevent me from buying another. I bought the bike new in '00. All services performed religiously. After the first failure the final drive oil was changed with every oil change. The bike has never been ridden hard, have never downshifted, little two up riding as well. Very frustrated with this and it's keeping me from taking long rides. In comparison, I have an '84 Yamaha Venture Royale that I bought new in '86. It now has 122k and has it's original final drive. It has almost no wear. Oil is always clean when I change it. Never any engine problems whatsoever. I feel I could take this bike around the world and not the BMW. Obviously the final drive on the LT's is of a defective design, uses substandard metals, SOMETHING, but BMW does not address this. Seems like corporate suicide to me. BMW must know something about this drive that the company is not telling comsumers and this is what bothers me the most I guess. Sorry to rant here, it's just very aggrevating to me that a bike as fine as the LT is overall, that this problem with the final drive still exists.

This is the reason I sold my LT and purchased a 2008 Gold Wing. I did love to ride the LT but now that I have the Gold Wing I like it much better than the LT. Easier to handle at low speed and much more power. Just not to have to worry about the rear drive makes it much more enjoyable to ride and maintenance is so much easier and less to do. If BMW would ever come out with a reliable touring bike I would consider another one but not the LT of today.

[DaveDragon]

When the FD failed on my 2006 R1200GS it gave subtle clues during the final miles of pre-digestion of the bearing cage.

I felt a tapping through foot pegs that got progressively more pronounced.
Then the bearing cage cut the seal and dumped the FD lube all over the spinning rear wheel and me as well.

[Lumpy]

Dave...call me crazy, but the final drive on an '06 should not be failing, period. BMW does know something about the failures, but they have very arrogantly ignored the problem. The bearings in these drives experience much higher than normal wear. Know this is no help, just like ranting today I guess.

[c00k1e]

Ignor spelling - I am tired!

http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31713

[Jriverside]

Mine went at 35K and I now have 82K so far so good. Jim

[kickboxer]

hi i recentelly had a final drive failure on my 1999 k200lt, it felt like the back end was wobbling and got worse in a short time ,it also felt like vibration up through the seat,with the oil finally going over rear wheel.
that was my experience hope it helps

[OU812]

I started this one with the wrong title.
http://r1150r.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=12811
Should have said lemon law. Maybe the LT's have more failures because of the added weight? Just a thought.

[Caper11]

Drained the oil from my FD the other day and noticed just a small amount of black sludge in the bottom of the container. Other than that the oil looked good. I might drain it again and do a little more investigation. Or should I just take to the dealer.

[Hackercraft792]

What info I have taken from this thread seems to point to regular lube changes for the final drive being the best preventive route. I am curious as to which brand and what weight of lube most are using.

[mtrevelino]

What info I have taken from this thread seems to point to regular lube changes for the final drive being the best preventive route. I am curious as to which brand and what weight of lube most are using.
If you really read through "all" the threads, you will see that even if you change the FD fluid once a week it does not matter. If your FD is going to fail no matter what preventative measures you take will not make a difference. The only good thing about changing the fluid is that you may see some metal chunks in the fluid. This is a sign that you FD is going to fail. The fluid that I have just started using is Redline Heavy Shockproof gear oil.

[c00k1e]

I have just put Redline Heavy Shockproof gear oil in my brand new FD

[roadcrave]

I just replace my whole rear drive every 35,000 to 40,000 with a newer one, that keeps me on the road...matthew

[c00k1e]

I just replace my whole rear drive every 35,000 to 40,000 with a newer one, that keeps me on the road...matthew

Now thats ganna cost!!
What do you do with the old ones?

[eljeffe]

Now thats ganna cost!!
What do you do with the old ones?

Less expensive than a 12K service. :rotf:

[tkramer]

I just replace my whole rear drive every 35,000 to 40,000 with a newer one, that keeps me on the road...matthew

Kinda like the Arab sheiks: When their Rolls Royce runs out of gas they just order up a new one.

[Richardhautau]

I had 4 failures of the final drive on my previous 1999 K 1200 LT. I do pull a trailer most of the time and ride 2-up. The noise is unmistakable as it developes over several hundred miles, and it can happen in only about 5-6000 miles once you have had to replace 1. The more often I had to replace them the shorter the milage interval in between disasters. Sold the blankety blank bike and purchased yet another new 2007 at the end of last summer. It so far is fine but only got around 9,000 on the clock. :)

[jackd]

I had 4 failures of the final drive on my previous 1999 K 1200 LT.

Wow.. you might take the prize for the most FD failures.. :eek: A dubious honor..

[BMWROLLIN]

Friends,
Thanks again to all those that replied. I finally saw the evidence in the way of oil streaks on the side wall of my tire as I was leaving work yesterday. I have read the forums from the first week I owned the bike and have been well aware of the high probability of the FD failure. I was always looking, listening, and feeling for the signs of the failure. I also adopted the practice of changing the FD fluid every oil change (2000mi) with a synthetic. I ride primarily one up and on occasion two up. I have a trailer which has gotten very little use. I live in NC so temperatures are moderate. Occasionally I put the sales up on the interstate but ride more often than not on two lane 55mph roads so I average in the mid 60s riding speed. With exception for an occasional need to see what she’s got, I baby the thing 99% of the time. It’s hard to believe that after a hundred years of making drive shaft motorcycles, BMW would not be able to design or a least redesign one that will hold up. I have been riding BMWs now for 24 years and have never been so disappointed in BMW than I am right now. I’m now contemplating on jumping ship but can’t bring myself to even think about Honda or any of the other three. That leaves me with very few choices left and I’m not crazy about them either. I really feel like an old friend has let me down.

[Amsoil1]

What info I have taken from this thread seems to point to regular lube changes for the final drive being the best preventive route. I am curious as to which brand and what weight of lube most are using.

I use the Amsoil Severe Gear 75W90 synthetic in the final drive and change every 24,000 miles. Worked great in my 137,000 mile 2000 K1200LT and my 25,000 mile 2006 K1200LT. No problems.

Used2Jeep asked "Just bring the oil to the dealer in a jelly jar or something? Or do I need to find a laboratory somewhere?"

One place to get your fluids analyzed by mail is http://www.oaitesting.com/ . I have sample kits available at wholesale if anyone wants one. They analyze the oil for wear metals, viscosity, acidity, contaminants, and make recomendations. I plan on having my fluids analyzed at 35,000 miles, right before my factory warranty expires, to determine if I have any problems developing and to see if I should purchase an extended warranty.

[vernvernvern]

Friends,
Thanks again to all those that replied. I finally saw the evidence in the way of oil streaks on the side wall of my tire as I was leaving work yesterday. I have read the forums from the first week I owned the bike and have been well aware of the high probability of the FD failure. I was always looking, listening, and feeling for the signs of the failure. I also adopted the practice of changing the FD fluid every oil change (2000mi) with a synthetic. I ride primarily one up and on occasion two up. I have a trailer which has gotten very little use. I live in NC so temperatures are moderate. Occasionally I put the sales up on the interstate but ride more often than not on two lane 55mph roads so I average in the mid 60s riding speed. With exception for an occasional need to see what she’s got, I baby the thing 99% of the time. It’s hard to believe that after a hundred years of making drive shaft motorcycles, BMW would not be able to design or a least redesign one that will hold up. I have been riding BMWs now for 24 years and have never been so disappointed in BMW than I am right now. I’m now contemplating on jumping ship but can’t bring myself to even think about Honda or any of the other three. That leaves me with very few choices left and I’m not crazy about them either. I really feel like an old friend has let me down.

BMWROLLIN,

Well stated and I whole heartedly agree. There is just no excuse for a company to not fix the FD problem. At only 19,000 miles(FD Failure), I was REALLY disapointed in BMW as a Company!

At the next failure, if I have one, I will have to rethink what I'm riding! :mad:

[Wolfgang]

Had two failures. In both cases the noise and vibration started at highway speed and by the time I stoped it was very loud and you could see oil leaking out.

The last time I had changed the oil about 500 miles before and it was clean with only minimal metal on the drain plug. I have used synthetic BMW gear oil. I did get assitance from BMW in both instances.

Maybe if I had used Amsoil they would not have failed, but would BMW have helped?

[Amsoil1]

Had two failures. In both cases the noise and vibration started at highway speed and by the time I stoped it was very loud and you could see oil leaking out.

The last time I had changed the oil about 500 miles before and it was clean with only minimal metal on the drain plug. I have used synthetic BMW gear oil. I did get assitance from BMW in both instances.

Maybe if I had used Amsoil they would not have failed, but would BMW have helped?
If BMW proved the Amsoil failed, then Amsoil would pay for repairs. If the oil did not fail, then BMW would pay if under warranty, or if you have an extended warranty, the warranty company would pay.

[cccpastorjack]

Oil??? Oil??? Oil??? :brick:

Let me let'cha in on something -- "It's NOT the oil that causes them to fry." I don't care which BMW expert says it is.

I've seen them fail with less than 2,000 miles using recommended Dino from BMW, installed and changed by BMW Techs...and I've seen them fail with Redline Heavy Shockproof and just about every other kind of oil you can imagine.

IMO it is an inherant design flaw sometimes complicated by poor assembly at the factory.

Those two things together spell:

H-I-G-H
F-A-I-L-U-R-E
R-A-T-E.

:(

[Amsoil1]

I agree. It does seem to be hit and miss. I've not experienced the failure in 162,000 miles. Just lucky, I guess.

[LAF]

It is not the oil, no way.

I can tell you I just found out Amsoil sells 80-90w and that is what I ordered for my 6000 mile to put in the FD. I will use 75-140 in the tranny but I am going to run what the manual calls for which is 80-90 GL5. I had used 75-90 at 600, and 3000 mile change but don't want to leave anyone an out if this FD goes tits up in the warranty period. While I don't think 75-90 is any kind of issue, going to play it safe. Of course I probably already did irreparable harm, by insisting on changing it at the 600, and then using 75-90, the bearing cages are probably already shredding :rolleyes:

Real shame this wonderful machine is plagued by this issue :mad:

[petepeterson]

I agree. It does seem to be hit and miss. I've not experienced the failure in 162,000 miles. Just lucky, I guess.


Your not lucky,,, Your just in the vast majority of LT owners... Most have not had a problem with their BMW's......

I will be the first to admit that too many have failed,, especially from a company like BMW.... reading the Goldwing site they have almost as many FD failures as BMW has,,,,Along with frame cracks, overheating,neck bearing failures,etc. I think we are doing okay......Pete

[johurry]

grab the tire at 12 and 6 o'clock if you feel movement it's gone also 9 and 3

[Amsoil1]

Pete,

I hope you are right. It seems to me there are a lot of failures. And some have experienced more than 1, up to as many as 4, which I hope is the record! Some say only 4% have failed. I think it is closer to 40% for those with more than 20,000 miles on their bikes, especially on the earlier models. Look at all the 4% failures in the signatures of the members. I'll bet most of the members that have had failures don't even have that as part of their signatures.

I've noticed my 2006 has been a lot more reliable than my 2000. The only concern I have is that the exhaust valve clearance was at the factory minimum using the thinnest shims that BMW has. If it gets any tighter, I might be in a lot of trouble. I'll recheck at 35,000 miles and if too tight, I hope my warranty will cover any work necessary to restore to proper clearance. My 2000 had lots of warranty problems that finally got straightened out for the most part before the BMW warranty ran out. With all the problems I had, I decided to get the extended warranty, which more than paid for itself. I am deciding whether or not to get the extended warranty on my 2006 mostly on the valve clearance item, and the results of oil analysis at 35,000 miles. I certainly enjoy my 2006 and is a much better bike than my 2000, and hope to put more than the 137,000 miles I had on my 2000. But if BMW redesigns and makes a major step toward my motorycle ideal, I may not be able to wait that long!

[alstrickland55]

I'll bet most of the members that have had failures don't even have that as part of their signatures.




I would add the four percenter to my signature if I knew how :confused:

[Amsoil1]

That didn't take long!

[Lumpy]

Gosh, gee, even if 4% is accurate, it's still way too many failures to me. Can't help but think of it this way: Was the shaft drive on my '79 Honda CX 500 engineered better than my LT? I rode this bike for 70k. Or the final drive on my '81 GL1100? Or my '85 GL1200? I sold it to a friend at 90k and he rode it for another 75k with no FD failures. Sure, the BMW's design is different than those bikes. It just has to be flawed in some way or it is poorly assembled. Would a 4% brake failure be acceptable? Or a 4% computer failure? What if 4% of all bikes sold experienced tires or gas tanks that exploded? Guess if it's not directly safety related, it's not on the mothership's radar. I realize this is a dead horse. I really do love the bike, but hate this one shortcoming and the company's attitude about it.

[Amsoil1]

I think it could be considered safety related. I've read here of a few lock ups and oil spews coating the rear tire while at speed.

[Ted]

Gosh, gee, even if 4% is accurate, it's still way too many failures to me.

the 4% was an estimate back in 2002, based upon the number of failures divided by LT production thru 2002, so the % would be far less in 2008 (there have only been a few LT's with model years 2003 - 2008 that have failed).

Relax and go ride!

[KIC]

the 4% was an estimate back in 2002, based upon the number of failures divided by LT production thru 2002, so the % would be far less in 2008 (there have only been a few LT's with model years 2003 - 2008 that have failed). Relax and go ride!

Great...... I have worried about my FD at 4% of all the LT's manufactured. NOW....you tell me it's 4% of 3 years worth of bikes. My 2000 LTC is right in the middle.

That sucks !!! :mad:

[Lumpy]

Has the ball bearing change on the newer models contributed to fewer FD failures?

[OU812]

Will the newer FD fit my 02'? :mad:

[Ted]

Great...... I have worried about my FD at 4% of all the LT's manufactured. NOW....you tell me it's 4% of 3 years worth of bikes. My 2000 LTC is right in the middle.

That sucks !!! :mad:

This post by Randy provides more detail - the % COULD ACTUALLY BE MUCH LESS than 4%:

http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=220952#poststop

[Ted]

Has the ball bearing change on the newer models contributed to fewer FD failures?

yes - IIRC the change to the 17-ball occurred in May 2002, and IIRC there have been less than 5 reported LT failures (on this site) on bikes with build dates after May/2002.

[KIC]

yes - IIRC the change to the 17-ball occurred in May 2002, and IIRC there have been less than 5 reported LT failures (on this site) on bikes with build dates after May/2002.

This is good information. I took a sharpie and changed the build date on my bike to June of 2002. So I will no longer will worry about my FD. :D

[LAF]

There are still failures on 06 bikes I think RT's had a few that have been posted and I thought an LT or two.

I just never see bikes produced/FD failures so I have to rely on the informal polls here, which I think is a pretty good guesstimate.

What would set me at ease is if someone could put it into a meaningful perspective so I could understand it in context/perspective.

[OU812]

OK, I am a worry wart. My R1150 build date was on the neck of the frame. Since I can not see the neck on my LT, where do I find the build date?
Thanks.
Steve

[obe44]

Sorry to hear about your problem. Just changed the bearings on my GS this week. Would recommend removing brake caliper when testing for play. Found mine when changing a tire. On GS have to remove brake to remove rear tire anyway.

Jake

[Ted]

OK, I am a worry wart. My R1150 build date was on the neck of the frame. Since I can not see the neck on my LT, where do I find the build date?
Thanks.
Steve

under the seat, or input last 7 characters of your VIN# here:

http://www.bmw-z1.com/VIN/VINdecode-e.cgi

[OU812]

Thanks, I think. 01/02, so I guess I have a better chance of joining the 4%'s. :brick: :(

[BMWclubsouth]

Mobile synthectic is awesome.

I'd take it to the dealer, not risk doing something wrong

Rob

[dshealey]

What info I have taken from this thread seems to point to regular lube changes for the final drive being the best preventive route. I am curious as to which brand and what weight of lube most are using.

Nope. Many of us changed the final drive oil every time we changed engine oil. Drives still failed. Oil change rate seems to have no bearing on the bearing. (pun intended) ;)

[niel_petersen]

Given that the most common failure mode seems to be Herzian stresses (i. e. spalling) on the bearing races, I agree "super oil" is'nt going to change that. It might help on the cage failures though.

There was a 100,000+ mile FD example above with no failures. It would really be valuable for all of us to see what the actual FD bearing preload dimension is on that one. I think that's the only practical variable we users have left to play with, and field experience could give us an answer better than any original BMW design engineering preload prognostications.

[MattKas]

Why not ****** Severe Gear 75W140? I live in Arizona I need an oil for hi temp.


I use the ****** Severe Gear 75W90 synthetic in the final drive and change every 24,000 miles. Worked great in my 137,000 mile 2000 K1200LT and my 25,000 mile 2006 K1200LT. No problems.

Used2Jeep asked "Just bring the oil to the dealer in a jelly jar or something? Or do I need to find a laboratory somewhere?"

One place to get your fluids analyzed by mail is http://www.oaitesting.com/ . I have sample kits available at wholesale if anyone wants one. They analyze the oil for wear metals, viscosity, acidity, contaminants, and make recomendations. I plan on having my fluids analyzed at 35,000 miles, right before my factory warranty expires, to determine if I have any problems developing and to see if I should purchase an extended warranty.

[GolfGuy]

Production date 5/01. Whew :dance:
So far ...so good!

[EncoreJoe]

I had the bearing changed to the newer version at only 17,000 miles by Hank at Rhine West in San Antonio.

Now 30,000 miles later I've changed the rear drive oil every 6k and the magnetic drain plug has been almost clean with very little fuzz.

I'm happy with that and don't think about the rear drive any more.

Joe

[JATownsend]

Pete, I hope you are right. It seems to me there are a lot of failures. And some have experienced more than 1, up to as many as 4, which I hope is the record! Some say only 4% have failed. I think it is closer to 40% for those with more than 20,000 miles on their bikes, especially on the earlier models.<SNIP>
Tim: 40% is absurd! There have been 172 entries into the "Failed Final Drive Survey", 172...there are over 14,000 members on this site.

You are talking shit!

Take a deep breath and stop scaring the new folks. ;)

[Silverhair]

I'm picking up a used 99 on Saturday, and am very scared...

Whats it cost to replace a FD?

ed

[clay]

I have personal experience with 3 fd failures, so I feel somewhat qualified to comment on this. The first two were on my lt, the third was on a friends lt. In all three cases there was a roughness when rotating the rear wheel, prior to failure. If you put the bike up on the center stand, and rotate the wheel, it should be smooth and quiet. Anything short of smooth and quiet and you have a problem, in my opinion. If the rear brake calipers are dragging on the rotor, take them off so you can get a real feel for how quiet, or noisey the drive is when you rotate it. This is a procedure that you should do often, learn what is normal, then if and when things change it will be apparent. If you are not sure if yours is noisey or quiet, go to the local dealer and try this on a new one. These drives will give you warning that they are about to fail, if you pay attention. The lt is a great bike for two up riding and long distance interstate travel, also great when the weather is cold or wet. I am on my second lt and put approx.10k per year on it. I would take it anywhere anytime, but before I go, I put it on the center stand and give it a spin.

DCH

[cfell]

Ya know what.... there are hundreds and hundreds of LT's being ridden right at this moment who have NO CLUE about the existence of this board. So, don't worry until you have the problem.... I personally "worry" more about Deer, Hogs, Buzzards.