Fully integrated Bluetooth helmet; What is it worth?

[djfalkenstein]

I am an engineer now frustrated at the snail’s pace of Bluetooth communications. Granted, there are good intercoms emerging, but still there is no truly high quality DSP based helmets beyond the failed promise of the System 5 and the limited availability of the Nolan NComm (I can ONLY fit into an Arai Profile XXXL).

What compounds my frustration is the simplicity of a fix; Bluetooth modules are “cook book” units – they are easily built and integrated.

So it is time to build my own. My question is, what is it worth? Would you buy one? I do not plan to make money at this; I am an open-source developer with the belief that information should be shared. I have found a perfect module pair to use. The envisioned system would plug into the VOICE 2 or the Baer and cost about $100 in parts per helmet, consisting of a dongle that plugs into the 6-pin ports (in the case of the VOICE) and an fully embedded helmet component – no plastic tumors on the helmet exterior.

But before I go down this road, who cares? Who wants to read about my efforts?

[GBaker]

Count me in. But I do not want to look like Frankinstein on two wheels.... :D

I have the VCII, BMW CB, and the Kenwood FRS/GMRS 3101 as well as the six disc CD (it was there)... and believe it or not all work pretty good but a long story on getting them to that point...

[strsout]

I would like to have something that will work for a couple.
I have J&M system on my GS and BMW (that I believe is J&M) on my 2002 LT (not VOICE system, but I'm assuming that the plugs are the same).
If I can have something just to free us from the cable from the helmet to the J&M box that would be ideal.
my wishes:
listen stereo music from the ipod, that plays from the J&M
talk with my wife, dual channel (using the J&M)
talk with FRS single channel (with push to talk) (using the J&M)

If I can listen to my Zumo GPS would be a bonus and if I can use my ZUmo to make/receive phone calls using my BT phone then it would be a big plus.

I can test-drive it for you if you ever need one to do that.

The battery life would be very important as well the ability to charge it from the 12v bike in case I'm camping and there is no outlet.
Nothing less then 7 to 8 hours per charge at least.

if we have to have some kind of device on the helmet, if it can be on the back , out of the wind, would be better. Wind noise by those little devices on the side of the helmet became very annoying after couple hours.

I would say $100 per helmet would be reasonable if we have clear stereo sound.

[GBaker]

I am an engineer now frustrated at the snail’s pace of Bluetooth communications. Granted, there are good intercoms emerging, but still there is no truly high quality DSP based helmets beyond the failed promise of the System 5 and the limited availability of the Nolan NComm (I can ONLY fit into an Arai Profile XXXL).

What compounds my frustration is the simplicity of a fix; Bluetooth modules are “cook book” units – they are easily built and integrated.

So it is time to build my own. My question is, what is it worth? Would you buy one? I do not plan to make money at this; I am an open-source developer with the belief that information should be shared. I have found a perfect module pair to use. The envisioned system would plug into the VOICE 2 or the Baer and cost about $100 in parts per helmet, consisting of a dongle that plugs into the 6-pin ports (in the case of the VOICE) and an fully embedded helmet component – no plastic tumors on the helmet exterior.

But before I go down this road, who cares? Who wants to read about my efforts?


Oh my goodness! :o My profuse apology to djf if you were offended by my Frankenstein remark. I did not notice your name until I checked back. That thought has always been in my head re thinking about what the bluetooth makers would come out with. That the cure may be worse than the problem.

Please see what you can come up with.

[EricSuz]

Agree with what others have said. I thought that I wanted to go BT entirely. But learned a few days ago that XM radio through the Zumo 550 is not possible. I think that battery life would be very important. Also, the ability to have spare batteries for on the road replacement. Perhaps a 12 volt recharging device for the spare battery.

Intercom would also be desirable.

Good luck on your project. There are a lot of details that could ruin a good concept. It seems that is not as easy as it appears.

Keep us all informed.

[dwsdad]

Interesting that you should bring this up. I talked to my brother-in-law, a retired EE from Alcatel, about doing this very thing while visiting with them at Thanksgiving. After explaining what I was interested in he said it was do-able, but the cost involved and the difficulty making it small enough wouldn't make it worth while for him to do. Just too much overhead. We talked about not using Bluetooth, but trying the old 2.4Ghz wireless phone chips. Plentiful and cheaper than Bluetooth.

If you can do it, and bring it in at a reasonable cost, I'd be in for it. It amazes me how slow this technology is in coming to motorcycling.

[djfalkenstein]

Over the next few months I am going to play with this idea. If there are any techies that want to become involved please feel free to contact me.

I will throw up a web to chronicle my progress.

The end-game would be to illustrate the process so simply that anyone here could replicate it. Any code I write will be made available.

FYI: the modules that I intend to play with are the Free2Move F2M03MLA (http://www.free2move.net/index.php?type=view&pk=26&pk_language=1) . This module is SWEET! Can anyone say heads-up display?

As for the suggestions; Thank you. What I eventually see is an embedded module paired with a dongle that will connect to a VOICE 2 or a Baer. I have herd rumors that J & M will have a product soon; I would like to see it when/if it happens. Geek that I am I want to push the envelope a bit and include some interesting functionality.

All this is, of course, contingent upon several factors; not least of which is cost and demand.

[pickerbiker]

I salute your ingenuity and, yes, I would be interested in getting rid of the chords. Your $100 price point also seems reasonable. Good luck and keep us posted on the progress.

[scarver]

David,

Don't know how "techie" one needs to be but I'm sure interested and willing to help. Have an Autocom system on my RT to handle the ham, GMRS, and CB radios, plus the normal GPS, radar detector and iPod interfaces. Use helmet speakers plus in-ear phones so have double the wires to deal with!

[djfalkenstein]

As promised I will begin putting together a prototype today.

To keep costs low and probability of success high, I chose to grab as much "off the shelf" as was possible. I now have a good A2DP source and sink (for MP3 quality sound), and a very good helmet module. I received today the HSP components.

Next I get to glue everything together and write some code. Fun, fun.

[gglove]

DJF count me in I would love it.
XXL helmet to much brain power going on there :histerica

[messenger13]

I'm not asking for much...
Just get me a device that does WHAT THIS PUPPY DOES (http://www.bluebike.com/premium_en.htm), and I'll write you a check for $500 right now. :)

[zaphod]

Good work. I can't wait to here how it comes out.

[yechave]

Just in case this helps with the research. We bought a Cardo Scalar team rider blue tooth com system, $185 for both units. Not sure what all the capabilities are with this unit, but it does work with the cell phone, for one user. We've only been able to use this once due to weather, but for the 3 hrs we did use it, it was pretty good. Took some doing to figure out, and had an issue with minor crackling and hiss. Got used to that pretty quickly.

The mic and pod did not fit our Nolan 102C's very well, still working on that. Their customer service has been excellent. Sent three replacement mics via DHL (never asked for proof of purchase), to try and eliminate noise as well as get a better mic to helmet fit with a longer boom. This worked for me. I also really did not like the idea of being corded to the bike or the passenger. No batteries, uses A/C or D/C charger good for about 5-7 hrs use.

I was not able to find anything else in this price range, and felt it was worth the chance to have at least some ease, constantly on com between myself and my passenger. If something better comes up, we may be interested.


http://www.cardowireless.com/news_and_events/040506_pr_scala500voip.php

[Steve_R]

Here's another option for you > Dainese (http://www.beta-zone.dainese.com/eng/dnect/default.asp). Cycle Gear carries their pre-wired helmets.

Also Intaride has bluetooth capability with their Liberty Wireless (http://www.intaride.com/liberty%20main.html) unit.

[messenger13]

Also Intaride has bluetooth capability with their Liberty Wireless (http://www.intaride.com/liberty%20main.html) unit.Since I already have the older IntaRide RP-1, that's mostly likely what I'll be opting for. That is, unless DJF can come up with something functionally comparable yet more more cost-effective. :)

[kevincook]

Just in case this helps with the research. We bought a Cardo Scalar team rider blue tooth com system, $185 for both units.



Wayne, that seems like a very good price. Where did you find it for that?

Thanks,
Kevin

[yechave]

I bought this with their online discount and free shipping offer for the holiday. I had purchased some other items prior, by chance. I am pretty pleased with what we have for the money. As I said, Cardo's customer service is just outstanding.

http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com/Search.aspx?S=Cardo%20Com%20systems

[djfalkenstein]

Suddenly I see lots of support and I thank you. If only my ex was this supportive... :cool:

Opinions please: My first pass at this venture is to create a system that will plug into a VOICE II (via the standard 6-pin connections) - in other words cut the cable. The system must have equivalent audio clarity and quality to anything on the market and be void of wind-dragging appendages hanging from the helmet's side (the back is more likely, or better yet installed inside). Is a simple system that works with the VOICE II but cuts the cord useful? Folks, this is an investment for me so I want to know if there is interest.

Contrarily, would you good folk prefer a system that replaces the VOICE II and all of its "features", even at the additional costs? These are being built today by vendors with a good head start and deeper pockets than mine.

Of course, being the bastard that I am, if I can make a system that is modular by design (you by what you need now and add later) and open-sourced then if no other purpose is served it might help to drive down the cost of such units now in play. Did you know that your $185 Cardo system is comprised of a couple of $20 boards, batteries and some plastic? Granted, these vendors are now pioneering what will soon be the standard, but jeez the mark-ups!

ON A DIFFERENT FRONT
What I am doing here is kicking the bee's nest and having fun. What I am planning now is my next career (I am much too old to work for turds). Along this vein I emailed the folks at BlueBike today about the possibility of a distributorship here in the states.

No, I am not selling out; just looking forward with pragmatic eyes.

I am intrigued that their design resembles what I sketched myself some months ago, though theirs is a bit big - at least at first glance. Mind you, I have not yet tested the unit so I can not vouch for quality.

I will contact them soon, hopefully get my hands on a unit and, if that pans out, possibly open shop with some interesting value-added products.

Here is my request:
Would any of you out there who would like to see a more cost-effective solution to motorcycle communications please write BlueBike.com (http://www.bluebike.com/rahmen_en.htm) and tell them to expedite a presence here in the US?

Even if I am not suitable for such a distributorship (though I really am), then someone here is and we need the competition!

Thank you all.

More news shortly.

[messenger13]

Here is my request:
Would any of you out there who would like to see a more cost-effective solution to motorcycle communications please write BlueBike.com (http://www.bluebike.com/rahmen_en.htm) and tell them to expedite a presence here in the US?

Even if I am not suitable for such a distributorship (though I really am), then someone here is and we need the competition!Already done that. ;)

Stay in touch...

[jamesgoodchild]

If you get to the prototype stage, I'd be interested in taking a look as well.

[djfalkenstein]

I have the first module in and working. I have written the code to make it function in the configuration that I envision. This has been tested successfully with my daily use Bluetooth headset.

I have also specified the housing for the prototypes. The two major design flaws that I see with every other system available out there are being addressed with these first kits; hot-swap batteries (with built-in chargers) and packaging that is not obtrusive, fragile and prone to wind drag.

In a low-volume prototype scenario parts are costing me about $130 per helmet pair. At volume (about enough for 100 kits) the kit will cost about half that much. This is the cost of manufacturing that I see at this juncture.

When I get back from my trip in two weeks I will begin to build out the first two working sets for my Queen and I. Once complete I will post photos.

When I have a working product that can be exhaustively tested and proven, I will look for money to buy components in volume. Investors welcomed.

[mirage]

David,

Great work, I have been thinking about this problem as well and hoping someone would jump in and do the research required to get it going.
If you get it working with a Baehr K1200LT intercom. I'm very interested in that solution with Zumo 550 integration as well.

Thanks for the work needed to get this going.

Mirage
2005 K1200LT

[djfalkenstein]

It has a name and she is Leyna. I have modeled the system and have the transmitter (the source) programmed. I will be working on the headset (the sink) when I return.

Basic concept:
This image shows the basic concept of Leyna:
Project Leyna (http://www.bmwlt.com/files/displayimage.php?album=4&pos=45)

[jrowlandesq]

Dave,

I have just read your post about the bluetooth system. I've been looking at these for some time now. I think the biggest problem is that none of the ones I've been looking at can adapt to the BMW's onboard system. (I have a 2007 LT with the onboard intercom system). As best I can understand the process, what is needed is a 6-pin dongle that will transmit the information coming from the onboard system into a bluetooth signal. Once that is done all the onboard options will work through the receiver in the helmet. The other systems make you pair the phone to the system, pair the nav system to the helmet, pair one helmet to the other. If the onboard system could be adapted to a bluetooth dongle unit that could be received by any bluetooth receiver. But then if it were that simple I suppose someone would have done it already. I posted something the other day about the Camos system. The folks at Benchmark Helmets tell me that the makers of Camos are coming out with an adapter for the LT jack. It was supposed to be out this month, but, as with most of this equipment, there's a delay.

Anyway, count me in. If you build it they will buy.

[SmokinJoe]

It has a name and she is Leyna. I have modeled the system and have the transmitter (the source) programmed. I will be working on the headset (the sink) when I return.

Basic concept:
This image shows the basic concept of Leyna:
Project Leyna (http://www.bmwlt.com/files/displayimage.php?album=4&pos=45)
David, have you made any progress on this project? I have been following and am interested.

[deputy5211]

I'm not asking for much...
Just get me a device that does WHAT THIS PUPPY DOES (http://www.bluebike.com/premium_en.htm), and I'll write you a check for $500 right now. :)

Dang, Joe, that puppy is SWEET. Price is way out there with the dollar doing so poorly against the Euro (and almost everything else).

[messenger13]

Dang, Joe, that puppy is SWEET. Price is way out there with the dollar doing so poorly against the Euro (and almost everything else).Yes! I know!!! http://www.k-bikes.com/forums/images/smilies/dribble.gif (http://www.k-bikes.com/forums/misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=1&forumid=0#) But I just might be willing to shell out the coin come next Spring, if a more cost-effective yet comparable unit isn't released by then.

[deputy5211]

It has a name and she is Leyna. I have modeled the system and have the transmitter (the source) programmed. I will be working on the headset (the sink) when I return.

Basic concept:
This image shows the basic concept of Leyna:
Project Leyna (http://www.bmwlt.com/files/displayimage.php?album=4&pos=45)

I could not find the doc at the link, has anyone else been able to find it? Of course, two hours of loust sleep are not helping. :eek:

I am VERY interested in your project, but I have an Autocom system (SuperPro AVI). It has a bluetooth dongle that talks to the Zumo, the other bluetooth connection in the Zuno talks to my blackberry. The ptt GMRS radio, Valentine 1, Ipod, Zumo directions, XM are all hardwired to the Autocom. helmet cords have 3.5mm jack inline for the in-ear speakers (I do not use the headset speakers.

I guess the only part of that which matters is the Autocom because it is 7 wire connector and different pinout than the other systems. I have the pinout information if that would help. I also have some 7-pin panel mount jacks and end of wire plugs.

If you could rig for Autocom as well that would be great! I would take Leyna and her twin for the Autocom. One of the girls for the LT, and another for the Autocom on my Harley. They still be in the same place, si you do not have to worry anouy breaking the twins up. ;)

[deputy5211]

Yes! I know!!! http://www.k-bikes.com/forums/images/smilies/dribble.gif (http://www.k-bikes.com/forums/misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=1&forumid=0#) But I just might be willing to shell out the coin come next Spring, if a more cost-effective yet comparable unit isn't released by then.

Well if the project unit does not get to where we could buy them, maybe we could get a deal if we buy several. I sent an email that asked if I could sign up as a dealer here in the states.

I also sent them an email about needing a good distributor here in the states who understands the technology from the inside out from day one. As he posted, could probably create some nifty add-ons as well.

[JB3]

I sent a message to BlueBike.

I am trying to find a system that can be moved between my '00 LT and '07 GSA and really want to go bluetooth. It sounds like you have the helmet portion near completion. The current batch of comm systems are way too expensive to turn around and add the cost of bluetooth comm to the helmet. It is ridiculous how much they are charging (close to a $1000 for comm system, cables, headsets/bluetooth adapters). I am considering a Motocomm system to fill the gap until a viable product hits the market. I still hate to toss $200 at a stop-gap solution.

I am holding out as long as I can and encourage you in the project.

[DonD]

Check out the Scala Rider Q2. It works well with my Bluetooth phone and two other riders, has built in FM (which I use to receive my XM radio's broadcast) and also communicates with a GPS, although I don't use the latter capability. It can be found for about $160 per set on Ebay.
A review is posted at
http://www.webbikeworld.com/motorcycle-intercoms/scala-rider-q2/

[messenger13]

Check out the Scala Rider Q2. It works well with my Bluetooth phone and two other riders, has built in FM (which I use to receive my XM radio's broadcast) and also communicates with a GPS, although I don't use the latter capability.But does it do all that the BlueBike Premium (http://www.bluebike.com/premium_en.htm) does? I don't think so . . . please tell me that I'm wrong. For one, I don't think that the Scala Rider can send music from ONE iPod to two separate helmets. My wife and I would need to take TWO iPods with us. That doesn't work for me.

I do realize that the Scala Rider is a LOT cheaper, but sometimes that's not the only thing that matters ... unfortunately. And I'm not even questioning the Scala Rider's quality, just it's functionality.

[Sharkey]

Hey Joe

Where can I find out more about Blue Bike Premium?

[JB3]

Unfortunately, while it is Bluetooth 2.0, I think the Cardo is mono, not stereo.

I use earphones, not helmet speakers, and really like stereo. That was deal-breaker for me.

[messenger13]

Hey Joe

Where can I find out more about Blue Bike Premium?Only at their website, and via email. I don't think they currently have a US vendor. I'm hoping they get one this year sometime.

[KeVRod_TX]

Dave, I'd be interested in your approach to replace the helmet cord with a BT connection to my existing intercom unit, thanks.

[Hackercraft792]

Whilst surfing this morning I stumbled across Collett Electronics and they have an answer to this need. http://www.collettcommunicators.com/ I'm not sure about the $600.00 price but it sure looks good.

[DonD]

I'm going to check into the Collett gear. They claim XM is among their wireless capabilities but I don't know how when there aren't any XM Bluetooth units as far as I can find.
This is a bad weak area with my Scala Q2 - constant hissing and loss of signal.
Also when communicating bike to bike, wind noise seems to keep the line open, preventing you from going back to your FM when you're done talking.
Otherwise, bike to bike and communication through my bluetooth phone works great!

[djfalkenstein]

Hi Folks, I am back.

First my apologies for being incommunicado; I have working through some personal challenges.

I have built a prototype system using th e Free2Move Bluetooth modules. While this exercise was successful (and fun) it has taught me that my original idea of an open-source project for the masses that would save us money is vapor-ware. The engineering of my prototype has cost me much more than buying a commercial unit would, making the idea cost-prohibitive.

I am now researching alternatives, including the AKE BlueComm 102 (http://ake-electronic.de ).

[BMWprofessor]

Damn, you got my hopes up. Thanks for the ideas and I hope you have worked through the personal things!