Design input for new gen K12LT

[ride1]

This is from the GSBMWR newsletter: "Just talked to Max Stratton, and there will be a special event on Sunday, November 11, from 11-1 at the Brunswick, NY store. There will be a designer from BMW there to talk about a future K1200LT and gather information from touring customers on what *you'd* like to see. So, if you have ideas you'd like to contribute, contact Max at max.stratton@maxbmwmotorcycles.com (or call 603-964-2877) to let him know you are coming. Space is limited, so don't wait. Even get a free lunch!"

[motorman587]

Wished I lived up there.

[Woolly]

Wished I lived up there.

Well, seeing we don't, why don't we generate a list and 'delegate' someone up there to deliver it. I think we'd all agree that top of the list should be a more rugged FD and a fix for the clutch slave seal problem.

[motorman587]

Well, seeing we don't, why don't we generate a list and 'delegate' someone up there to deliver it. I think we'd all agree that top of the list should be a more rugged FD and a fix for the clutch slave seal problem.

Great idea.
I would like to see a 6 cylinder, either in a inline or V-6. More passenger comfort, like less buffy and intergated armrest. Those were the two the SO complained of, coming off a wing.

[dandiver]

Get rid of the existing POS. Simply use the existing holes on the clutch and break hydraulic reserves for standard mirrors. One less thing to be concerned about. Keep it simple.

[dshealey]

Get ride of the existing POS. Simply use the existing holes on the clutch and break hydraulic reserves for standard mirrors. One less thing to be concerned about. Keep it simple.

But I LIKED the LT mirrors just the way they were!

[CharlieVT]

Well, seeing we don't, why don't we generate a list and 'delegate' someone up there to deliver it. I think we'd all agree that top of the list should be a more rugged FD and a fix for the clutch slave seal problem.

I plan on going.

Addendum:
Keep posting suggestions to this thread. I'll print the thread and take it to the meeting.

[simoncharles]

A higher top (5th or 6th ) gear, illuminated controls on the handlebars, not to mention a direct input for a Mp3 player.

[hschisler]

massively-powerful auxiliary driving lights (in addition to the standard high-beam); integrate these into the bike, from the factory
less weight (much less...)
top case rack standard (maybe it is; it wasn't on my '05)
incorporate RiderWest's pannier reflector conversion kit (turns pannier reflectors into driving/turn signal lights)
seat -- suitable for LD riding
move rider's power outlet to the stingray area; having a cable run down to the left foot peg seems ill-conceived

[schwabee]

-Larger displacement engine, 1500cc
-Longer valve adjustment intervals, 32k or so like the competition
-Better FD design
-6 speed transmission
-Lower CG, less weight

[petevandyke]

-Easier access to regular maintenance items (see the placement of the oil filter on the new Concours 14)
-More horsepower, and a diet (if not a 6 cyl, perhaps an itieration of the k1200 R/S engine, but something along the lines of the FJR and Concours numbers)
--Adjustable front suspension (personally, I'd rather NOT have ESA on mine, but would like to be able to tweak the front and rear for pre-load)
--How about a pre-wired "fuse panel" for add-on farkles?
--non-integrated rear brakes that don't sing like the proverbial fat lady
--adjustable bars (ok, I know you "could" adjust current model, but how about making it something that wouldn't take two days)




Amen to:
--Aux plug in "oddments case" (double amen if you integrate for Ipod the way the Victory did)
--MUCH stronger clutch
--BULLETPROOF final drive
--Fold-down or retractable passenger arm rests
--integrated aux lights (I've always thought the gold wing's were kinda' cool, I know BMW could do a better job)

[kevincook]

Here is my list.

1. Bulletproof FD.

2. Bulletproof Slave Cylinder or pre-drilled weep hole at least.

3. Leaking engine seals shouldn't take out the clutch ever.

4. Keep the engine covered up with tupperware. It is much easier to clean this way and I'd rather ride than worry about polishing my engine.

5. Prewired for farkles. Aux. lighting, gps, ipod integration, heated clothing, etc.

6. A "custom" seat. Not many people can ride all day without having to buy a new seat.

7. A bigger engine would be nice but not at the expense of the gas mileage.

8. Mirror located higher so I can see them in my peripheral vision without taking my eyes off the road.

9. Wireless intercom option that integrates with GPS, Telephone, etc. Including recharging capability for the headsets on the bike. Ability to recharge headseats while eating lunch or something.

10. I don't mind the weight. I think it is one of the things that make it easy to ride all day and not get bounced around by wind gusts or passing tractor trailers.

11. I'd like to be able to stretch my legs straight out occassionally while on a long trip. Afte a couple of hours my legs get a little stiff. Right now when I stretch them out they are sticking out too far to the side. This is a lower priority for me than everything else but it would be nice.

12. No cast aluminum trunk latches.....this should NEVER break and the engineers should assume someone is going to cram too much in the case when they are designing this.

13. Missle defense system that automatically detects left turning cars and eliminates them before they become a problem. :D


I hope the engineers have time to get all this done before the first deliveries in April. :)

Thanks,
Kevin

[JCarver]

The high points for me are numbers; 1, 2, 5, & 7-10. With gas going up every other day a 6th gear or overdrive that would bump you up over 60 mpg would be nice. I can always downshift if I need to pass in a hurry, often do that anyway. On the weight, I agree it does make the ride smoother, just lower the center of gravity.

hth
John

[Canabarry]

Good points raised by all.

I'd particularly like to see easier maintenance. Removing some tupperware is OK but one should not have to remove the gas tank for simple maintenance.

My wife would like passenger floor boards rather then pegs so she can move her legs more. I've added aftermarket armrests of course. She would like the rear seat to be higher so she can see past my helmet (or else a periscope mounted on my helmet).

I see complaints about the seat comfort but my 99 factory seat is great for LD. It could be narrower in the front to make it easier to get my feet on the ground at stops.

I presume they will fix the deficiencies like lighting, clutch weaping, and final drives. Lower center of gravity would be a big help.

Finally, how about some air or water chilling that can be hooked up to full protective gear for summer driving.

[AlaskaFish]

Borrowing from Kevin's list, I would like to see the following also:

1. Bulletproof FD. - Agreed! This should last the life of the Bike!!

2. Bulletproof Slave Cylinder or pre-drilled weep hole at least. - Since we are doing it on our own with no negative effects so far, this should be a no-brainer!

3. Leaking engine seals shouldn't take out the clutch ever. - Maybe if the oil had a way to drain they wouldn't!

4. Keep the engine covered up with tupperware. It is much easier to clean this way and I'd rather ride than worry about polishing my engine. - This is really important for those of us who take pity on our cousins riding those naked Bikes who must spend hours cleaning after every foul weather ride, or just not go.

5. Prewired for farkles. Aux. lighting, gps, ipod integration, heated clothing, etc. - At the very least make it easy for those who wish to have such devices on their long distance machines, huh? I need to use the cassette player in order to pipe my Ipod into the system. It has worked quite well, but what about those with the later year Bikes without the cassette player?

6. A "custom" seat. Not many people can ride all day without having to buy a new seat. - Another item that many of us have fixed ourselves. This one can be a little more difficult though since it really is a subjective thing for individual's tastes. I do feel that firmer would certainly be better though.

7. A bigger engine would be nice but not at the expense of the gas mileage. -A major point here. I do not want to lose my bragging rights about the 50+ MPG! But if we can get a bigger engine and maintain the mileage, I'm all for it.

8. Mirror located higher so I can see them in my peripheral vision without taking my eyes off the road. - Once again, this can be subjective. I, like David, have no real problem with the vision of the mirrors. However, I do feel there should be a better way to mount them so that we don't all have to attach "TETHERS" to them so we don't lose them when we hit a hard bump in the road!!

9. Wireless intercom option that integrates with GPS, Telephone, etc. Including recharging capability for the headsets on the bike. Ability to recharge headseats while eating lunch or something. - How about BLUETOOTH already integrated to the system? Ford & Toyota can do it for their vehicles. Why can't BMW.

I guess I have to say that I really am happy with my 2000 LT at only 81,000 miles. It really is the greatest all over Bike I have ever owned, but has a few downsides that really do seem like something which no Bike should ever suffer. I have overcome the heaviness at parking lot speeds, and tethered my mirrors, and drilled the weep hole. But, even though you may say it is a machine, and all machines break, do not forget that it is a BMW machine! And there really is a reputation to protect there which is suffering when such a machine has problems like those mentioned above.

So tell them for all of us please Charley!

John

[Lonewuff]

LED tail, brake (and additional lights for these two on the back to make the tri-angle), and turn signal lights instead of the Christmas Tree bulbs they currently use.


Easy to adjust handlebars up and down (telescoping would be nice to adjust the length too)


Lighted switches on the handlebars


Boards instead of pegs would be nice.

[scottydawg]

Satellite radio and mp3 integration.

[cccpastorjack]

How about improved shift linkage, so LT riders don't have to carry a spare?

A clutch assembly that is NOT underated for the vehicle.

[Ajlelectronics]

move rider's power outlet to the stingray area;

How about this?

[bmwusmc]

LED tail, brake (and additional lights for these two on the back to make the tri-angle), and turn signal lights instead of the Christmas Tree bulbs they currently use.


Easy to adjust handlebars up and down (telescoping would be nice to adjust the length too)

.

100% agree on the LED rear end lighting..Also maybe increase turn signal visiblility on the front end so oncoming motorists can see your turn signals better..

[ronk1200lt]

-Larger displacement engine, 1500cc
-Longer valve adjustment intervals, 32k or so like the competition
-Better FD design
-6 speed transmission
-Lower CG, less weight
These would be enough to bring my wallet out for another LT.

[BecketMa]

Adjustable handle bars. For me, my handlebars are about an inch too far forward.

Final drive.
Slave cylinder and oil seals taking out the clutch.

Trunk latch breaks! Getting a new trunk bottom with the same latch that will break for $$$$ is !?!

Safer if the seat's heater switch was closer to the handle bars.

I've gotten nice little burn marks on my hand from trying to check and ad air to the rear tire while out riding.

Speaker connections that don't have to be taken apart, cleaned, lubed, to restore sound to the speakers.

The low beam headlight on my 00LT was a crime! An accident waiting to happen!

Ooooh how I'd love a place to streeeeeeeetch out my legs.

Skip the CD changer; ports for MP3 etc. Skip incorporating a CD player into the radio.

If we can buy rear brake pads that don't squeeeeaaaaaal, why can't they!?

Uuuuuuum, an accurate speedo? Yea. I know they choose to make it not read actual speed.

A nice expensive LED to indicate if we accidentally turn the parking light on.

Bob

[Gizmo1137]

Great idea.
I would like to see a 6 cylinder, either in a inline or V-6. More passenger comfort, like less buffy and intergated armrest. Those were the two the SO complained of, coming off a wing.

Not if it is a gas guzzler like the Gold Winnebago.

[RVB1019]

Relocate the reverse lever from down below and change it to a handlebar button.

Speaking for those of us with big beer guts, bending over to back up is a real pain!

[ajs]

I find it hard to believe that anyone from BMW is prepared to listen to a group of LT owners looking for suggestions for the next generation LT. Especially if they are targeting an April release of an '09 model. It all sounds too good to be true. But here goes with my two cents worth...

I would like to see all lighting that can be changed out to LED's as standard equipment in the interest of reducing load demands on the alternator while improving the bikes visibility. I know the current alternator can handle the load requirements now but by reducing load demands it would give us a greater capacity to add our favorite farkles without being concerned about overloading the system. (part of the fun of owning an LT)

I could go with an increase in HP and a lowered center of gravity as options that would be available from BMW. But not at the expense of affecting its stability at high speeds and wind turbulence conditions.

A couple of other things I would like to see are ESA and tire pressure monitors.

The final drive and slave cylinder issues should be addressed by BMW if they are that serious a problem. I personally don't know of anyone who has had either problem but I have read extensively about them on this site.

Except for the LED lighting and the FD and slave cylinder issues, the other improvements I have identified I would like to see available as options only. That way each buyer can outfit their bike as they prefer and as their pocketbook allows.

[wipatters]

Well, seeing we don't, why don't we generate a list and 'delegate' someone up there to deliver it. I think we'd all agree that top of the list should be a more rugged FD and a fix for the clutch slave seal problem.

I would have to agree that the engineering issues would have to be #1, then any "like to have more of stuff" e.g. I'm not sure the 4cyl is so underpowered that a 6cyl would be on my list. Then I'd list the additional luxuries like the pillion armrests etc. Remember that those things usually increase MSRP $.

However, I tend to think lists like these typically go nowhere anyway. Usually the people that make the decisions have already done so. Just my opinion.

[motorman587]

I agree, I to believe that, if, there is new LT out there it is already done with the planning stage.

[LAF]

I agree this is also a done deal. But my 2 cents anyway.

I have to say there is not a thing I would change on the LT except the seat and cow bell.

Now that is only based on what I have experienced, and not what I have read.

I really have no complaints, just FEARS based on what others have experienced.

I can always use more power and that would be welcome, but not needed.

A decent, STURDY set of fold out forward pegs would be nice.

I really like the bike so far.

I should still have warranty in the second year of the "new" LT so I will make a decision then.

[cb550f]

Not at the expense of gas mileage. I think a 6 cyl would give plenty power, but we would pay at the pump.

+1 on the farkles being options instead of pricing the average "Joe" out of the LT market.

In other words, I don't think I'm ready for a $30,000 2400cc bling-bling.

How bout 2 models, a "mid-size" 1200 and a monster 2400 6 cyl for those that to much is just enough. I know, dream on...

And don't try to make it look like a rice-rocket racer. The current styling is holding up really well for a 9 year old design. I like that instead of one that looks dated after 2 years.

BTW, Dave I like the mirrors just where they are also. They are perfect for my 6'1" height. It is a pain to have to zip-tie though.

[bimirider]

Good side stand that can hold the bike and NOT fold back on us so easily!
BMW should pay to an HD/Honda guy to show them how to do it right.

[BecketMa]

While I don't buy lottery tickets, I still hope BMW will fix the design defects, final drive, slave cylinder, leaking seals that take out the clutch, cheap trunk handles, etc.

Bob

[rlv]

I just can not believe that no body mentioned how bad they hated the smoking issue when starting up.
If I were BMW, this would be the first thing that I would make sure was not going to happen with the new engine.

[Buchnerb]

I'd like some easy things.
1. A set of indicator lights to show when the heaters are turned on.
2. A couple small 12 volt power outlets up front.
3. More stowage compartments up front where you can reach them without getting off the bike.
4. Spare switches on the bars prewired to under the seat for adding your own stuff.
5. Fluid reservoirs where you can see them and get to them.
6. Manuals that match the bike. 06s and 07s have differences from 05s but you still get the 05 manual.

Bruce Buchner

[Ajlelectronics]

I just can not believe that no body mentioned how bad they hated the smoking issue when starting up.
If I were BMW, this would be the first thing that I would make sure was not going to happen with the new engine.

That is the result of laying the engine on its side. There is nothing that could be done to improve it without raising the CofG higher. Easiest to just not use the side stand, no problem then!

[Woolly]

Easiest to just not use the side stand, no problem then!

Or just hold the bike up for about 30 secs after killing the motor, before putting it on the sidestand.

[CharlieVT]

Okay gents, I have printed this thread and will take it with me.
20 Degrees F this AM so the ride over the mountian will be a little on the cool side. Gerbings full on!

[motorman587]

Or just hold the bike up for about 30 secs after killing the motor, before putting it on the sidestand.

Take it to Alaska and back. Mine quit smoking when I did my Alaska trip in June. :) Maybe it was in the air. :)

[Woolly]

Take it to Alaska and back. Mine quit smoking when I did my Alaska trip in June. :) Maybe it was in the air. :)

Mebbe it ran out of oil :histerica (btw mines never smoked, but I make up for it :()

And thanks CharlieVT for your efforts - be interesting to see if anything comes of it.

[petevandyke]

I'd add...

-ape hangers
-right-side, 6" wide belt drive
-300mm rear wheel
-curved license plate holder to match
-hard-tail frame
-point-welded fireman's axe, Eiffel Tower, and Stealth Bomber replicas
-custom tank paint job showing Paulie Sr. and Paulie Jr. faces


oh, sh*t, wrong forum.

Sorry


Pete

[deputy5211]

How about this?

Yeah, but the purple tint gives away the Sharpie you used to re-color the screws, and that you didn't color within the lines! :) Been there, done that.

[CharlieVT]

Gents,

We (world's best pillion rider and myself) departed for NY from the deep south of Vermont at 9 AM. Temp was 29 degrees F. The high during the ride home was 42. Thank you Gerbings! Comfort all the way. There was a Gent (sorry can't recall the name) who left Maine at 5 AM with temps at 19 degrees F. Temp was 20 degrees F here in the deep south of Vermont at 6 AM so there is no doubting him.

Cranking the sweepers of rte. 9 across southern Vermont at 75-80 mph in 30 degrees temps (did I mention that I have the world's best pillion rider?) we arrived at Max BMW in NY around 10:30 AM.

There was one other KLT in the parking lot when we arrived. Ultimately there were a half dozen KLTs, two Gold Wings, and a smattering of other BMWs.

Attendees: I estimate about 30 folks in attendance in addition to Max Stratton, some of his staff, the two gents from Munich, and Frank Stevens of BMW NA.

Of the Gold Wing contingent, one was an Iron Butt'er, with a car tire on his rear wheel. (I don't think he really understands motorcycling the way I do :) )

There were a couple of guys there reporting and taking pictures for BMWMOA so there will probably be something in an upcoming issue of Owner News. (One of them, Paul Bachorz, gave me his card.)

The two Gents from Munich were Florian Baumeister (he is on the marketing side of things and whose job is to feed info to the engineering guys; his busniess card is in German so I can't make all that out) and the engineer whose card I didn't get but whose name I understand is Gerhardt (apologies for misspelling/error). I had extended conversation with Florian who told me that his job is to get a sense of what the market (not just American market, think global) wants in the next generation of KLT and to pass that info on to the engineers who will build the bike.

Incidentally, I pointedly asked Florian about what is in production. If my understanding is correct there is no new generation LT in production, so reports of a new version of the LT to hit show room floors in 08 are incorrect. (I am not someone who pays a lot of attention to BMW models and upcoming changes, I only read posts on this board and happened to go to this event because it was a nice day to go for a ride). From posts read on this board I was under the impression that there was a new "KLT" in production. My conclusion based on the converstation I had at this meeting today is that there is not. Time will tell.

Note: this team from Munich will be in the states for about a week. This event at Max BMW was the first (their second day in the states) but they have more events on their itinerary, and will be in CA and attend a motorcycle convention in addition to their other stops.

I had an extened converstaion with Florian and handed him a copy of this message thread (very nice guy btw, experiencing his 1st visit to the US. If you happen to meet him, please do your best to make him feel welcome).

Max BMW had a bunch of Quiznos Subs to eat and their coffee machine got a good workout. Thanks to Max Stratton and crew for sponsoring this event.

After a bunch of tire kicking and individual conversations the meeting was "called to order". Attendees got to introduce themselves, mention what they were riding, and where they rode from. There were about a half dozen KLTs that were ridden to the meeting.

The parts guys from Max BMW tactfully discussed the parts that were going off the shelf and how this related to the reliability issues that are well known to the readers of this board. I added that most current KLT owners like their bikes and that "perceived" reliability issues were a major concern. Frank Stevens addressed these concerns in the group meeting and later individually with me. His response was sincere and straightforward in my opinion. BMW is well aware and very concerned about reliabilty issues known to us, and is working to resolve them. [My comment inserted here: That doesn't mean there will be a recall of all final drives and clutch slaves]. The purpose of this meeting was not to speak to those issues, but rather to get a better sense of the American market and to make improvements to the KLT so the next version meets market needs better.

A statistic cited by Frank Stevens: There are more Goldwings sold in the US each year than BMW sells total bikes.

My input came in two categories: 1st to address the desires of current KLT owners (my own and those expressed here) and 2nd to address what I feel are the "shortcomings" perceived by those prospective buyers who currently own other brands e.g. GoldWing and HDs.

Gehardht (the engineer) asked an insighful guestion regarding complaints about weight. Point being, the issue isn't really about weight, it is about slow speed handling, getting the bike on the centerstand, seat height, ability to flat foot the bike by the average rider, etc. Even the guy who drives the truck for Max's Service Department who has to push KLTs around wanted less weight. :)

There was a question about what electronics to include on the bike posed by the Munich team: The concensus feedback was to provide power outputs higher up on the bike and to allow for audio input to the bike's audio system. Factory Blue Tooth was suggested. Dropping the speakers was suggested to save weight and make speakers an option. I think the consensus suggetion was to build a motorcycle and allow for aftermarket electronics to be added on with relative ease. The point was made that consumer electronics are changing so fast that whatever they build into the bike will be obsolete by the time the bike comes into production. The unused 6 CD changers in so many bikes were cited as an example.

One of the last questions posed by Florain was our preferences and predijuces regarding engine types. V-6, Straight 6, 4 cylinder, etc.?
I think I was the only one to respond to this question. I said that I thought the current "flying brick" was a great motor. (I had previously brought up the complaint about smoke on start up). I also added that ease of valve adjustments and fluid changes for the DIYer were a factor in my choice of a bike. My tongue-in-cheek response to the question "what motor configuration should we avoid?" was to say: "Don't make it a V-twin." :)

In summary I came away from this meeting with a favorable impression. These folks know that they have a loyal BMW customer base that is their first priority. Secondly, they want to design a bike that will have greater appeal to the WingNuts, and HD bikers who might become BMW riders. BMW Munich wrote the check to have these guys come over here and listen to BMW riders express what they want. In my opinion, this isn't marketing fluff, but rather a sincere effort to figure out what the next generation KLT should offer.

[BecketMa]

Thanks for a well written post.

Yes. The weight issue is only an issue because of instability at slooooow speeds, and when the bike falls over.

My engine and trany work fine.

Doing the fluid changes in stages hasn't been a problem for me.

I don't want to trade the plastic keeping the heat away from me for easier fluid changes! Although I could use some more heat when the winter temps plunge into the 50s.

Bob

[kevincook]

Charlie,

Thanks for the report. I'm glad BMW is out asking questions. Did either of the Germans mention whether or not they were aware of this website? If they read here for while I think they'll get a good idea what current LT owners are looking for.

Kevin

[CharlieVT]

Charlie,

Thanks for the report. I'm glad BMW is out asking questions. Did either of the Germans mention whether or not they were aware of this website? If they read here for while I think they'll get a good idea what current LT owners are looking for.
Kevin

I gave Florian (Produktmanagement Motorrad) a printed copy of the salient posts in this thread. I circled the URL of the this website and suggested to him just what you suggest above.

I didn't pointly ask him if he was aware of this site, I only stated something to the effect that it was a valuable website that he would find useful and maybe he already knew of it. He did not respond directly to that statment. Frankly I suspect that these guys probably know of this site, and if I were Motorrad management I would expect them to.

[dshealey]

Well, I am glad BMW is at least putting forward an effort to find out what we want. I hope the effort is fruitful.

I am a little disappointed that it is now, as that means there won't be a new LT until at LEAST 2010, very likely beyond that. If the design is not already under way, bet on minimum 3 years from start to model introduction if a completely different base bike is to result.

I was hoping that when I am financially ready to get back into the fold a new design would be ready for me to evaluate. Otherwise I will just get a several year old LT, or move to the GS.

[dmatson]

I am now even more pleased at my recent purchase of 4 more years of warranty! I know lots of people mentioned a 6th gear for more of an overdrive but what i have noticed is just the opposite. I cruise all day long at 4k to 5k and the motor is as happy as can be. If the motor red linded at 6 or 7k then ya i would agree with the overdrive but it doesn't it is a revy motor. What i don't like is to get to the top of a hill with two up and try to take off in what feels like second gear! I have said it before and now again who needs a 1st gear so tall for a touring bike or one you may tow a trailer with two up? Red line in first at 60mph. My 05' LT with a remus exhaust and the Rhine west cam gears won't even come close to hitting red line in 5th any way but that still is 127 on the GPS. The suggestion about the seat is a hard one (or to soft). I have never sat on a stock seat on any bike that I could ride farther than my custom seat, they should just keep the seat and give us a $500 credit towards any seat we would want. I love the LT and would buy a new one if they did just reworked this one. They could add a lower first or add a 6th speed with a low first, beef up the FD, beef up the clutch, seal the clutch from any leaks, they could get at least 135hp out of the motor without to much work and improve the mpg at the same time, use the new style brakes and add ESA, enlarge the side bags, and make the top box removable with a nice rack under it. Then they could look how and where we farkle our bikes and add junctions or connections to those areas. Even thought the LT came out in 99' it is still a beautiful looking bike and better looking than any touring bike on the road today. I wonder where the BMW guys are going to be in Ca?

[LAF]

Thank you for the update.

While I believe these guys are sincere it is the bean counters who will win.

They are aware of the LT's shortcomings and if they did not speak directly to those issues I don't see the point?

After the 11 days and 11,000 mile run it is VERY apparent that there is a huge issue on FD and its ability to hold up. If you read the final report on that endurance test those people were nothing but scathing to BMW.

I will keep riding and loving the bike but I am convinced that if I don't sell the bike I will need to buy an extended warranty to even hope to afford it after warranty.

Thanks for the report and I don't want to shoot the messengers but I think it is for little other than publicity.

[rodneyinmaypearltx]

1- Final drive bearing upgrade

2- Clutch: either wet or upgrade the seal

3- Enlarge the side bags and make the top box removable (lower COG)

4- Lower seat

5- KEEP the basic fairing lines

6- Reduce sales price by, oh, say 20%; aw, what the heck, 30% :histerica

[tobiwan]

betting man I would bet that the New LT is really in the final stages of development and testing. Also that the fact finding trip was just an investigation to wrap up the final touches before the bike goes into final production. I really doubt German pride would really inquire like they really didn't know what they were going to do. Just my thoughts on the whole thing.

[grifscoots]

Well, BMW did send a marketing agency to Hot Springs CCR in 2001 to ask us what we'd like to see. We did get some changes out of that one, didn't we?

[petevandyke]

Charlie,

Thanks for your original and follow-up posts.

I don't care if the BMW powers that be implement our precious input or not, I think it was a nice gesture that they had a couple engineers (or kraut actors pretending to be--and I'm half German so don't hassle me for the slander!) come out to listen.

Heck, my entire life people have PRETENDED to listen to me, so I'm easily appeased...

Either way, it was darn nice of you, Charlie, to do what you did, regardless of whether you downplay it as "just somewhere to ride that day."

Will it make a difference in the next LT? Who knows. Does the input of a bunch of guys and not nearly enough ladies on this forum influence the next gen LT as much as profit/loss estimates, big business politics, and the whims and fancies of whomever is in charge that month? Nah.

If it did, we'd have 250 hp, bulletproof drivetrains, 10 year warranties, 65 mpg, seats that cooled, heated, and provided, uh, "relief" on demand, windshields that never fog up, free tires for the lifetime of the bike, zero percent financing, and a sticker price under ten grand U.S.

hey, wait a minute, make that our wish list.

cheers

p

[Ted Shred]

Gents,

We (world's best pillion rider and myself) departed for NY from the deep south of Vermont at 9 AM. Temp was 29 degrees F. The high during the ride home was 42. Thank you Gerbings! Comfort all the way. There was a Gent (sorry can't recall the name) who left Maine at 5 AM with temps at 19 degrees F. Temp was 20 degrees F here in the deep south of Vermont at 6 AM so there is no doubting him.

Cranking the sweepers of rte. 9 across southern Vermont at 75-80 mph in 30 degrees temps (did I mention that I have the world's best pillion rider?) we arrived at Max BMW in NY around 10:30 AM.

There was one other KLT in the parking lot when we arrived. Ultimately there were a half dozen KLTs, two Gold Wings, and a smattering of other BMWs.

Attendees: I estimate about 30 folks in attendance in addition to Max Stratton, some of his staff, the two gents from Munich, and Frank Stevens of BMW NA.

Of the Gold Wing contingent, one was an Iron Butt'er, with a car tire on his rear wheel. (I don't think he really understands motorcycling the way I do :) )

There were a couple of guys there reporting and taking pictures for BMWMOA so there will probably be something in an upcoming issue of Owner News. (One of them, Paul Bachorz, gave me his card.)

The two Gents from Munich were Florian Baumeister (he is on the marketing side of things and whose job is to feed info to the engineering guys; his busniess card is in German so I can't make all that out) and the engineer whose card I didn't get but whose name I understand is Gerhardt (apologies for misspelling/error). I had extended conversation with Florian who told me that his job is to get a sense of what the market (not just American market, think global) wants in the next generation of KLT and to pass that info on to the engineers who will build the bike.

Incidentally, I pointedly asked Florian about what is in production. If my understanding is correct there is no new generation LT in production, so reports of a new version of the LT to hit show room floors in 08 are incorrect. (I am not someone who pays a lot of attention to BMW models and upcoming changes, I only read posts on this board and happened to go to this event because it was a nice day to go for a ride). From posts read on this board I was under the impression that there was a new "KLT" in production. My conclusion based on the converstation I had at this meeting today is that there is not. Time will tell.

Note: this team from Munich will be in the states for about a week. This event at Max BMW was the first (their second day in the states) but they have more events on their itinerary, and will be in CA and attend a motorcycle convention in addition to their other stops.

I had an extened converstaion with Florian and handed him a copy of this message thread (very nice guy btw, experiencing his 1st visit to the US. If you happen to meet him, please do your best to make him feel welcome).

Max BMW had a bunch of Quiznos Subs to eat and their coffee machine got a good workout. Thanks to Max Stratton and crew for sponsoring this event.

After a bunch of tire kicking and individual conversations the meeting was "called to order". Attendees got to introduce themselves, mention what they were riding, and where they rode from. There were about a half dozen KLTs that were ridden to the meeting.

The parts guys from Max BMW tactfully discussed the parts that were going off the shelf and how this related to the reliability issues that are well known to the readers of this board. I added that most current KLT owners like their bikes and that "perceived" reliability issues were a major concern. Frank Stevens addressed these concerns in the group meeting and later individually with me. His response was sincere and straightforward in my opinion. BMW is well aware and very concerned about reliabilty issues known to us, and is working to resolve them. [My comment inserted here: That doesn't mean there will be a recall of all final drives and clutch slaves]. The purpose of this meeting was not to speak to those issues, but rather to get a better sense of the American market and to make improvements to the KLT so the next version meets market needs better.

A statistic cited by Frank Stevens: There are more Goldwings sold in the US each year than BMW sells total bikes.

My input came in two categories: 1st to address the desires of current KLT owners (my own and those expressed here) and 2nd to address what I feel are the "shortcomings" perceived by those prospective buyers who currently own other brands e.g. GoldWing and HDs.

Gehardht (the engineer) asked an insighful guestion regarding complaints about weight. Point being, the issue isn't really about weight, it is about slow speed handling, getting the bike on the centerstand, seat height, ability to flat foot the bike by the average rider, etc. Even the guy who drives the truck for Max's Service Department who has to push KLTs around wanted less weight. :)

There was a question about what electronics to include on the bike posed by the Munich team: The concensus feedback was to provide power outputs higher up on the bike and to allow for audio input to the bike's audio system. Factory Blue Tooth was suggested. Dropping the speakers was suggested to save weight and make speakers an option. I think the consensus suggetion was to build a motorcycle and allow for aftermarket electronics to be added on with relative ease. The point was made that consumer electronics are changing so fast that whatever they build into the bike will be obsolete by the time the bike comes into production. The unused 6 CD changers in so many bikes were cited as an example.

One of the last questions posed by Florain was our preferences and predijuces regarding engine types. V-6, Straight 6, 4 cylinder, etc.?
I think I was the only one to respond to this question. I said that I thought the current "flying brick" was a great motor. (I had previously brought up the complaint about smoke on start up). I also added that ease of valve adjustments and fluid changes for the DIYer were a factor in my choice of a bike. My tongue-in-cheek response to the question "what motor configuration should we avoid?" was to say: "Don't make it a V-twin." :)

In summary I came away from this meeting with a favorable impression. These folks know that they have a loyal BMW customer base that is their first priority. Secondly, they want to design a bike that will have greater appeal to the WingNuts, and HD bikers who might become BMW riders. BMW Munich wrote the check to have these guys come over here and listen to BMW riders express what they want. In my opinion, this isn't marketing fluff, but rather a sincere effort to figure out what the next generation KLT should offer.

So where you able to discuss the final drive issue with the Germans or just with Frank Stevens. What did the fellows from Munich have to say about the final drives and some of the other reliability issues???

[Ajlelectronics]

Yeah, but the purple tint gives away the Sharpie you used to re-color the screws, and that you didn't color within the lines! :) Been there, done that.

You weren't supposed to notice that! I couldn't find any M2.5 in black in my bits box, so that is a stop gap until some turn up. That socket is a remote radio socket from the Starcom. I plug my handy talkie in there. The power socket on the left is generally used for charging its battery.

[Frenchy]

Very instructive thread...

My guess would be the same as our messenger. The company signs the check to bring some people out there... so there IS a reason.

Seems like BMW is seeking inspiration. As stated, the GW sells more than all the BMW line + The new Victory Vision is quite a bike I think + the new Concours14 + the LT is an old bike now so they are surely stating their obligations. It will probably be more expensive than the actual one as was the GL1800 at release. So they CAN'T be wrong.

I think the situation is an exact copy of the new GW indeed. They need to build an entirely new bike and they need to make it a GREAT bike. just as simple.

I can't imagine those manufacturers not aiming at Honda about this luxury touring market !

My '02 :
* HD UCEG is a great bike but a completely different philosophy and market
* Victory Vision definitely aims at HD
* Honda GW is the world known luxury bike
* BMW tried to fight HD with the R1200 and they loose. BUT they do have the only challenger for the title : the K1200LT.

--> BMW will reply. It will strike hard ! I see the K1250LT about mid-2009. It will be expensive, but cheaper than a GW.

[johnk12lt]

Charlie,

Great report. Had I known you were going, I would have had you asked those from BMW, what is up with their dealer network? and what are they doing about it? I was fortunate, in that I hever had any major issues with my 2002 LT when I owned it. But like you I travel and always had the stomach wrenching feeling of getting stranded without nearby dealer support. Its going on 3 years with NO DEALER on Long Island. Totally unacceptable. It is no wonder ther are more Goldwings and Harleys sold than BMW's.

The ideas brought forward in this post by the members are right on the mark. With limited dealers, reliability is a top concern for many. I am sure the next version of the KLT will incorporate a good number of owner suggestions. I do not think BMW would send over a couple of engineers, if they weren't truly concerned about the market and what we want in a world class touring motorcycle.

[cjgonzo1]

If I could make a change on the K1200LT it would be "CHANGE THE CENTER OF GRAVITY." Meaning, the LT is too top heavy...to me anyway!

Jose

[IdleUp]

Well I'm new to BMW and 1200LT's - but after looking at the list of final drive failures dating back to 00 to 08 - it would seem likely to me that BMW would not have to come out with a whole new bike and make there riders wait until 2010 or later, to fix a known problem with the rear end.

It just plain stupid not to fix the problem. GW's had their share of failures but Honda didn't turn their back - they got on the rail and fixed them one by one. I guess that BMW does not want to re-tool anything since that would be an admission of guilt ( and responsibility).

The sad thing is; many guys (like myself) who like the 1200 are just turning the other way because of the FD problem. Let me make myself clear - I'm not worried about myself, if the rear end should lock up and I hit a pole or should the rear tire get doused in oil, and I slid into a wall, that's the chance I'll take. But when you buy a touring bike - that means (in most cases) your taking somebody with you. There is no way I'm putting my better half on a bike that I have knowledge there is a problem.

Hey BMW wake up it's almost been 10 years now! WTF

[MneShim]

Just wondering if any UK riders read MCN (the motorcycle newspaper UK) the other week? There was an article claiming that the LT definately would have 6 cylinders and apparently spoilers on both top box and panniers for stability.

[IdleUp]

Was there any other info posted!

Thanks

[larryschumer]

Oh no--that will put me out of business ;) . That would actually be okay. I've been wondering when BMW would make the reflectors light up. And I guess there will still be a retrofit market for a while.



massively-powerful auxiliary driving lights (in addition to the standard high-beam); integrate these into the bike, from the factory
less weight (much less...)
top case rack standard (maybe it is; it wasn't on my '05)
incorporate RiderWest's pannier reflector conversion kit (turns pannier reflectors into driving/turn signal lights)
seat -- suitable for LD riding
move rider's power outlet to the stingray area; having a cable run down to the left foot peg seems ill-conceived

[meese]

There was an article claiming that the LT definately would have 6 cylinders and apparently spoilers on both top box and panniers for stability.Not that made-up "spy" drawing again? :(

Personally, I want my tourer to handle like a BMW, not like a Buick. If y'all want a huge 6-cylinder tourer, then just go buy a 'Wing. Sheesh.

[MneShim]

Sadly there wasnt a photo with the article or a drawing. MCN are usualy pretty good, so fingers crossed! :)