The big lady on gravel

[CajunBass]

Anybody got any experience with the LT on gravel? My wife and I will be moving soon, and there is a gravel driveway, about a half mile or so long I guess. Most of it is fairly well packed down, but I noticed patches of loose gravel also.

I guess take it slow, easy? Any other advice?

[joegottberg]

Hi,

Congrats on the new home.

My work parking lot is gravel. Not too packed down, fairly loose and course.

I get severe "pucker factor" riding on it. Haven't dropped it when moving, but, boy to be distracted and try it--No Way.

The trick for me is keeping the bars as straight as practical and hold on tight. Big pebbles jerk the wheel, etc.

A driveway should be a ton better. You should have two cage tire packed down areas. You can always use stone dust to make it more road like.

Definitely get comfortable one-up before the SO tries it with you.

Best of Luck.

Joe

[McAllister]

A friend of mine with an LT used to live out in the country and had a gravel driveway about 1/2 mile long from the main highway. He would have to get the tractor out and grade the ruts ever so often so I assume it was loose gravel. He said the first couple of trips up and back with the LT were "pucker factors" but after that he just learned how to handle it and the biggest problem became all the dust that kept getting all over the bike. Yes, gravel is a problem but if you are careful and watch what you are doing and where you are going it is "do-able". Practice, practice, practice.

[messenger13]

Kinda like riding in the rain, you will get comfortable with experience. I don't mind running on gravel. Just stay loose. But I guess that's easier said than done, at first. Just know that it will get easier with time. And yes, I have a gravel driveway. ;)

[grifscoots]

The trick for me is keeping the bars as straight as practical and hold on tight. Big pebbles jerk the wheel, etc.


Holding on loosely is best. Allows the bike to track better.

This won't work in a parking lot, but on a road I keep the rpm's up. You can get a better shot of power when needed if she's already singing.

The key is to be relaxed. If you're tense, you're in trouble.

[UncleRock]

Depends on the size of the gravel, 2B +3's are a walk in the park.
Look long and don't use your front brake.
Unless your right at a rut look down the drive 50' or so, the weight of the bike and inertia will carry you past dozens of would be drops. You can't micro-manage the bike, looking 3 feet in front of your tire.
Rock

[rando]

I do a uturn in gravel any day I ride to work. It's crush & run, not too big, just avg gravel. No big deal once you get used to it. I know that's not necessarily like riding a half mile, but that wouldn't be too bad either. Finding the right speed so the tires grip without losing all your stability will be the key. try to concentrate on keeping "loose" on the bike at first.

Oh yeah, no big lean angles either, unless you;re a really good motard rider... lol

Of course, I learned to ride on dirt and gravle roads, so I may feel differently about it than most.

Randy

[FredR]

I have an 1100 ft dirt/gravel driveway that descends aprrox 50 feet with two nice curves. I have to run the tractor down after severe rain storms to keep it from washing down completely. My approach is to be in 1st gear, pick my path as far ahead as I can and DO NOT touch that front brake. Coming back up is a lot easier as I am under power the whole way but do occasionally slip a little in some soft spots.

[GoldRush]

We have a camper north of Laconia and it's a similar situation. Rutted gravel. I use second gear mostly, keep the revs up and work the clutch and the rear brake when needed and I do pretty good. But I'm always relieved when back on pavement. Good Luck

[dandiver]

Be alert, especially if you have to stop or slow down, as what you anticipate, might not happen. It is very easy for a large piece of gravel to get you going where you don't want to go. Kickstand is a major problem in gravel without something to place ahead of the pole. Key is to just be aware and not take it for granted. Obviously it is not as easy to ride on gravel, just different.

What has never happened, happens all of the time!

[jwd98056]

I've done quite a bit of LT riding off pavement and even pulling my cargo trailer. This is usually because my GPS can't tell a superslab from a goat trail :histerica. The price of looking for those perfect roads I guess. It is not something I would go out of my way to do but I don't shy away from it either. Lot's of good advice so far. Loose and/or deep gravel is the only big challenge. A couple of other points I might suggest.

Stay off the front brake.

A motorcycle in inherently stable until the rider does something stupid to screw it up.

Everything in moderation, don't do any hard turning, braking or acceleration. Street tires are a poor choice in the loose stuff so slow everything down.

Do all your deceleration prior to entering a turn and even slight acceleration through the turn will help to stabilize the bike. This is very important on downhill grades.

In deep gravel directional stability is more a matter of weight control then it is steering. In these conditions the rear wheel has more effect on directional control then the front. In loose deep stuff I will stand on the pegs and try to get my weight towards the rear of the bike. Directional control is then accomplished by shifting weight on the footpegs to get it to "drift" in the direction you want to go. This does not mean leaning the bike. This does not mean steering with the handlebars. This does not mean trying to keep the bike from fish tailing. Shift the weight and the bike will try to take care of itself. You can do this to some degree sitting down and using your legs but it is most effective standing and moving the center of gravity (a.k.a your butt) towards the rear.

The bike can get loose, but for the most part it is self correcting so don't panic. The throttle is your friend. In most cases an appropriate amount of throttle will stabilize the bike better than just about any other action you can perform. If you start fish tailing then reacting by steering, braking or rapidly rolling off the throttle, it is usually the worst thing you can do.

Moving your body weight to the inside of the turn will allow the bike to remain more vertical and leave more tire patch area in contact with the ground. This is of course true even for street riding but this is very handy during tight slow speed turns, gravel or no gravel. This takes practice if we are talking more than just leaning your upper body into the turn.

Pay particular attention to your footing when stopping. Remember that the LT is one heavy, tall, wide and top heavy beast. You need good traction for your feet. This is particularly true if you can't put a flat foot on the ground while in the saddle. Just be prepared that your foot or feet might slip and of course find a flat level spot to stop if you have any choice in the matter.

Of course I didn't invent any of this stuff and any half way decent dirt rider can ride circles around me in the boonies. I do not have a dirt bike background so I am but a poor student in the realm of remaining vertical on two wheeled conveyances. :) If there are better riding techniques I would sure like to learn them myself.

[dandiver]

I've done quite a bit of LT riding off pavement and even pulling my cargo trailer. This is usually because my GPS can't tell a superslab from a goat trail :histerica. The price of looking for those perfect roads I guess. It is not something I would go out of my way to do but I don't shy away from it either. Lot's of good advice so far. Loose and/or deep gravel is the only big challenge. A couple of other points I might suggest.

Stay off the front brake.

A motorcycle in inherently stable until the rider does something stupid to screw it up.

Everything in moderation, don't do any hard turning, braking or acceleration. Street tires are a poor choice in the loose stuff so slow everything down.

Do all your deceleration prior to entering a turn and even slight acceleration through the turn will help to stabilize the bike. This is very important on downhill grades.

In deep gravel directional stability is more a matter of weight control then it is steering. In these conditions the rear wheel has more effect on directional control then the front. In loose deep stuff I will stand on the pegs and try to get my weight towards the rear of the bike. Directional control is then accomplished by shifting weight on the footpegs to get it to "drift" in the direction you want to go. This does not mean leaning the bike. This does not mean steering with the handlebars. This does not mean trying to keep the bike from fish tailing. Shift the weight and the bike will try to take care of itself. You can do this to some degree sitting down and using your legs but it is most effecting standing and moving the center of gravity (a.k.a your butt) towards the rear.

The bike can get loose, but for the most part it is self correcting so don't panic. The throttle is your friend. In most cases an appropriate amount of throttle will stabilize the bike better than just about any other action you can perform. If you start fish tailing then reacting by steering, braking or rapidly rolling off the throttle, it is usually the worst thing you can do.

Moving your body weight to the inside of the turn will allow the bike to remain more vertical and leave more tire patch area in contact with the ground. This is of course true even for street riding but this is very handy during tight slow speed turns, gravel or no gravel. This takes practice if we are talking more than just leaning your upper body into the turn.

Pay particular attention to your footing when stopping. Remember that the LT is one heavy, tall, wide and top heavy beast. You need good traction for your feet. This is particularly true if you can't put a flat foot on the ground while in the saddle. Just be prepared that your foot or feet might slip and of course find a flat level spot to stop if you have any choice in the matter.

Of course I didn't invent any of this stuff and any half way decent dirt rider can ride circles around me in the boonies. I do not have a dirt bike background so I am but a poor student in the realm of remaining vertical on two wheeled conveyances. :) If there are better riding techniques I would sure like to learn them myself.

nice text.........

[UltraLT]

Ditto on forget you have a front brake. Go easy on rear brake as they are linked at some point.

Ultra LT

[Tat_n_Telle]

Ever watch "Dancing with the Stars"? (Okay, I admit, Telle made me watch the first few shows, then I sort of started tuning in myself - doesn't make me a bad guy, does it?)

Just imagine that kind of ballroom dancing - only performed on an ice skating rink. Sort of reminds me of riding the LT on loose gravel. Plan your moves carefully, go slowly - and don't be embarrassed if you do fall.

[sparky_k1200lt]

I'd second that 'loose, deep gravel' comment. for last 2 years I've dealt with a 50 foot long, 8-10% uphill grade from road to garage, gravel driveway. a few patches were shallow gravel, enough for weeds to grow thru. Other areas were at least 8 inches. This probably was created by "oh, another rut in the driveway? throw more gravel to level it out". Driveway was where the 2 cars park also.

With both of my bikes, I've had to stop just before leaving pavement, get RPMs up, pick a straight path between the 2 parked cars, and attempt to keep bike upright while the tires plowed through/down into the gravel. This left noticible ruts carved into the gravel. Most times I wound up Fred-Flintstone-walking the bike up the hill, while slipping clutch. When only 1 car was in driveway, it made things a little easier...didn't need to worry as much about bike slipping right/left thru the gravel, so could maintain a little more speed.

Also, turning the Wing around/backing it out of garage through the gravel was quite strenuous without powered reverse. Not sure I could have turned the LT.

2 years was enough for me. Last month we had it paved. :D

[CajunBass]

Ever watch "Dancing with the Stars"? (Okay, I admit, Telle made me watch the first few shows, then I sort of started tuning in myself - doesn't make me a bad guy, does it?)

Just imagine that kind of ballroom dancing - only performed on an ice skating rink. Sort of reminds me of riding the LT on loose gravel. Plan your moves carefully, go slowly - and don't be embarrassed if you do fall.

Wow. I never expected this kind of response. Thanks for all the advice everyone. This is a rental property and the driveway is a shared road. I've only seen it once, and that was at night, but most of it looked to be good and firm packed, with a couple of places where holes had been filled in. I figured the key would be to do things slow and gentle. I've ridded on gravel a few times, but never for that long a distance.

And don't worry. I'm not afraid to fall. It won't be the first time. :histerica

[cfell]

All great input... remember what Cassius Clay said.. "Float like a butterfly..."

Much like rain riding, it's all about "traction management". At low speeds, loose surface, your "traction" will come more from managing "material movement" than "traction patch" with the "goal" being to keep the bike as "vertical" over the centers of pressure over the tires.

If you've ever moved dirt or sand with your hand, or slalom water skiied, it's akin to that.

Let's say you're on the gravel, the front tire begins to "plow". As it buries, forces will move the tire left or right... not turn it, but literally pull it left or right.

Because the "CG" is far above this "input" the bike will want to "lean" as well as "sink" a bit....

Your task is to keep your head up...and compensate with enough "steering plow" to neutralize that tire deflection.

All the while, remember, you want to "maintain" enough forward motion that it is manageable... any braking, more PLOW...

Adding enough power to neutralize the "plow" resistance ... but not too much... In the "dirt bike" days, the method was basically this...

- "look where you want to go.... or crash"- Identify potential "loose" stuff
- "look where you want to go.... or crash"
- Rise on pegs, knees bent.. but not "tight"
- "look where you want to go.... or crash"
- move "mASS" aft... (body position akin to digging in your heels)
- "look where you want to go.... or crash"
- firm bar grip....
- "look where you want to go.... or crash"
- relaxed arms...
- Roll on enough power to "lift" the front wheel.... timed to happen JUST before the front tire contacts the bad spot

On the LT, my GPS sent me down a mountain trail in Eureka Springs, AK. It was Hard Surface until I came over a rise...

I let the "plow" decelerate the bike... while adding just enough power to try to "control" the plowing effect... I think, had I done a full "roll off", it would have been a "tupperware replacement" party opportunity.

[Gizmo1137]

When I had my LT and use to visit my ex-outlaws... I mean inlaws, whose house was at the end of a mile long gravel road with one left turn, I did this often with my ex riding pillion. It definately can be done but it is still alot like Captain Ahab on the back of a whale. What I found to be helpful was to stand on the pegs which does a few positive things. First it lowers the center of gravity, secondly it gives you better feel of the motorcycle and terrain and the third thing is, it allows you to initiate turns by weighting the pegs (left if your are turning left and right if turning right). You do not want to turn the motorcycle the same as you do on the street. Another thing that can help but may not be convienient, is to let about 10 lbs of air out of the tires which will provide more traction. But this will require you to have a portable air pump on board and the willingness to take the time to air up once you reach pavement.

[Offwego]

Wear ATGATT especially gloves. It won't hurt as much and you probably won't bleed! It saved my butt once

:rolleyes:

[Ajlelectronics]

What I found to be helpful was to stand on the pegs which does a few positive things. First it lowers the center of gravity,

How does that work then? Raising mass will surely raise the centre?

[Offwego]

How does that work then? Raising mass will surely raise the centre?

Good point!

[jwd98056]

Are you really raising the center of mass of the motorcycle when you stand on the pegs rather then sit on the seat? For the sake of discussion lets assume that when you are sitting 80% of your body weight is supported by the saddle and 20% by the pegs. When sitting on the saddle the weight on the saddle is relative fixed to that point of the motorcycle with only the variation related to where your upper body is positioned. If the bike is leaned that mass travels with the saddle. If I move almost 100% of my weight to the pegs and allow the bike to pivot side to side freely between my feet then I have effectively transferred the weight to a lower position on the bike and lowered the motorcycles center of mass. It is not just where the center of my body mass is located that is important but where that mass is applied to the motorcycle and how the mass reacts to changing conditions.

The other benefit to standing is your legs can help your suspension out by making it less likely you will bottom out. You are also able to move larger amounts of body mass farther, faster and more easily.

[Gizmo1137]

How does that work then? Raising mass will surely raise the centre?

It would seem at first not to make sense that standing on the pegs, which means you are standing tall would raise the CG, the answer is that all your weight is on the pegs which are very low on the motorcycle as opposed to up higher when sitting on the seat.

[DaleB]

It's kind of like the argument of whether a truckload of caged birds weighs the same if they're flying or roosting. I heard really compelling arguments both ways and still I'm not sure.

[Ajlelectronics]

It would seem at first not to make sense that standing on the pegs, which means you are standing tall would raise the CG, the answer is that all your weight is on the pegs which are very low on the motorcycle as opposed to up higher when sitting on the seat.

Think about it. It's not just a weight issue. You are raising mass. Therefore, the CoG goes up with it.

[Gizmo1137]

Think about it. It's not just a weight issue. You are raising mass. Therefore, the CoG goes up with it.

No, by standing, yes you are raising your body (mass as you say) and the only effect that has is on aerodynamics. By standing on the pegs, it changes where the weight is located, from on the seat to down low and that has the effect of lowering the cog.

[gpolakow]

If it's packed fairly well should be no problem. Deep, loose, heavy gravel is an issue with any bike.

[cfell]

hey.. cg changes according to placement of the load. if i stand on the seat there will be change of higher cg.

[dshealey]

hey.. cg changes according to placement of the load. if i stand on the seat there will be change of higher cg.

There is more to it than just where you apply your weight to the bike. Standing on the pegs with your legs not tight against the sides of the bike allows the bike to move around while most of your body can stay relatively stationary in the side to side plane. That will certainly allow the bike to react quicker and better. If you sit on the seat, the combined center of mass will be much higher, as the bottom part of your torso is more or less "connected" to the bike, so the reactions of the bike side to side will be slowed down.

The main consideration between standing on the pegs or sitting on the seat is NOT the combined center of mass of you and the bike, but the flexibility of the connection between the two. If you stood up and somehow maintained a rigid connection, where your upper torso had to move with the bikes movement, then the combined mass would be very high, and affectively would not change as the bike moved side to side. Thankfully, it is almost impossible to do that, and you would allow your upper body to "float", thus having only minor affect on the side to side movement of the bike. That is the real affect of standing on the pegs, separating the two centers of mass with a flexible connection.

[jwd98056]

Actually we are talking about two concepts; the center of mass and the dynamic center of gravity. In a rigid or static system the two terms are equivalent. In a flexible system with multiple degrees of freedom of motion other factors come into play. Standing on the pegs will raise the center of mass but not necessarily the dynamic center of gravity. A rider on a motorcycle is a dynamic flexible system. A direct analogy can be made that the motorcycle's suspension is a mass loaded spring. The dynamic center of gravity of a spring is directly impacted by where that load is applied to the spring. Not only that but the legs, arms and other muscles of the body are the equivalent of mass loaded springs. This is a complex system of forces that do not align well with the simple concept of static center of mass.

I am not a mechanical engineer and I get about enough of this stuff to be dangerous. Even if all this does not make any sense to anyone, there are millions of riders who have discovered or been taught the benefits of standing on the pegs, along with other dynamic interactions, to improve handling in poor traction situations. The techniques have been proven time and again. Of course there are 999 quitaseptillion flies that eat manure and that isn't necessarily a good enough reason for anyone to go out and do the same :histerica. All I can really say for sure is that it works for me. YMMV.

[whiteMTNmark]

Keep the drive graded and compacted (maintain it esp. after rain).
Throttle is your friend: keep gears down, revs up and don't brake!
Ride on the crown in the middle.
Keep your head and eyes UP.
Keep some weight on the pegs.
Keep the grips "easy" and the elbows bent.

Best motorcycle accessory I ever paid for was to pave my country driveway!!

good luck,
Mark

[Voyager]

No, by standing, yes you are raising your body (mass as you say) and the only effect that has is on aerodynamics. By standing on the pegs, it changes where the weight is located, from on the seat to down low and that has the effect of lowering the cog.

You are confusing force with mass. Standing up raises the CG of the rider and bike combination. However, it isn't that simple as the rider isn't rigidly attached to the motorcycle and thus the rider doesn't respond in synchrony with the motorcycle when outside forces act on the motorcycle.

Matt

[Voyager]

Anybody got any experience with the LT on gravel? My wife and I will be moving soon, and there is a gravel driveway, about a half mile or so long I guess. Most of it is fairly well packed down, but I noticed patches of loose gravel also.

I guess take it slow, easy? Any other advice?

I have only about 2600 miles on my LT so my experience with it is limited. I have a 1700' long gravel driveway though and ride on a lot of dirt roads so I'd say probably 500 miles of my riding thus far is on unpaved roads.

I grew up riding dirt bikes so I'm biased, but I find the LT to handle just fine on gravel, certainly as well as my last bike (Kaw Voyager) and I greatly appreciate the ABS on unpaved roads.

As always, when riding on gravel simply be smooth and gentle with the throttle, brakes and steering.

I was making a U-turn this morning with my wife aboard on a gravel road about 20' wide. The edges sloped about a foot downward into a ditch on each side. I got my front wheel too close to the ditch as I came around and the gravel was looser that I thought. The front started to slide into the ditch, but I got on the throttle a little and put my foot down and it came on around. Certainly anything that weighs over 800 lbs can be a handful in the dirt, but it isn't that bad with proper riding technique.

If you have no dirt bike experience, I'd highly recommend getting some. It helps a lot with your technique and confidence and is a lot of fun to boot!

Matt

[kmurphy165]

Of course there are 999 quitaseptillion flies that eat manure and that isn't necessarily a good enough reason for anyone to go out and do the same :histerica. All I can really say for sure is that it works for me. YMMV.Hi, Jim. Uhhhhh, eating manure works for you???? Has riding the Harley shaken a few critical parts loose in your cranium? No offense, just trying to keep up with the latest in nutrition therapy.

Karl

[midnitejaz]

You are confusing force with mass. Standing up raises the CG of the rider and bike combination. However, it isn't that simple as the rider isn't rigidly attached to the motorcycle and thus the rider doesn't respond in synchrony with the motorcycle when outside forces act on the motorcycle.

EXACTLY... Dave Shealey, jwd98056, and Voyager describe it well.

First, imagine the rider's weight replaced with two 100 lb. blocks on the seat. STATIC HIGHER COG

Now move one block to each footpeg... STATIC LOWER COG

BUTT, you say... the rider is taller than the 100 lb. blocks, therefore HIGHER COG!!

AND YOU ARE CORRECT. The taller rider has a higher COG on the pegs than on the seat, I agree.

BUTT, I say... that's where the "Flexibility" (shealey), "Dynamics" (jwd), and "Outside Forces" (Voyager) come into play.

Actually, the MASS of the RIDER leaned onto the correct footpeg COUNTERBALANCES the weight of the beast and becomes a PLUS in overcoming the problems associated with natural high COG !!!

[wolfstudios]

You could practice by riding the Alaskan Highway. After that , a gravel driveway is a cinch :)

1st or 2nd gear, foot ready on the rear brake, eyes peeled for ruts, and try and stay on the crown of the road.

Cheers,
Wolf

[CajunBass]

Thanks again everybody. I got a good look at the driveway in the daylight yesterday, and it's not as bad as I thought it was going to be. With the advice I've gotten here, it shouldn't be too bad. I don't know how long it'll be before I'm able to ride it over there, but I hope not too long.

[MosBMR]

Our driveway is 1/4 mile of gravel with two hills and two curves. So far the best thing I have found is to drive in the tire tracks created by the four wheel rigs. The other thing is to make as much of the turn as possible on the paved highway before you hit the gravel driveway so you are tracking straight on the loose stuff.

[taylorjn]

Hey, Wayne -
Prior to last week, I'd think long and hard. Then our campground was a mile down a gravel road - well-compacted on the way in, lots of loose stuff on the way out. HIGH pucker factor the first 2 runs. Then, I just let him do his thing - about 30, 2nd gear, if front felt loose, add a mite of throttle. AND my vision, was down the road, being aware of possible "spots" but not staring at 'em. We got along just fine after that. Still prefer the DIRT we rode on US 2 in MT 5 years back, tho. :-)

[airborne]

The riding techniques seem to have already been covered. However: It is very important to inspect your tires on a regular basis. When you drive on gravel, some of the rocks break over a period of time and in essence, the rocks are sharpened. The result is tire nicks and sometimes gouges. Watch your tires on the bike and the cars.

[jebain2002]

During this year's IBR, I took my '02 LT up to the Patriarch Grove at Ancient Bristlecone. 12+ miles of so-called dirt road each way (more like poorly graded rock with chunks varying from fist-sized to volleyball-sized). Even though I went up in the evening, with a drizzling rain, the LT went up the mountain without any significant problems, unlike some of the other brands of bikes that tried it.

Was it fun? No, not really. Would I want to tackle it every day? Nope. But then again it wasn't a half-mile driveway that I could maintain the way I wanted.