Sicko ...And Health Care

[nelson61]

Ok so I just watched the movie Sicko. I know our health system sucks big time here in the USA. Heres my Question ..In the movie they show the UK and Canada being so damn good and free. Is it ?????

[usmctpdog]

It is called " Socialized Medicine" Big Business in this country will never let it happen and it is a shame.

If our Gov't can afford to stage wars and lose billions of dollars bringing "Democracy" to 3rd world countries it is a damn shame we cannot seem to be able to fund Health care and Social security to our native born citizens!!!

Stepping away from the cliff now.......... :)

[Bobnoxous]

If our Gov't can afford to stage wars and lose billions of dollars bringing "Democracy" to 3rd world countries it is a damn shame we cannot seem to be able to fund Health care and Social security to our native born citizens!!!We cannot really afford the wars. Our national deficit is going through the roof, the printing press at the federal reserve is cranking out dollars, which is a hidden tax on us via inflation, which is significantly higher than the 2% the feds claim. It will come crashing down, as it has for other countries that were so careless with their money. Buy precious metals (not formal investing advice).

The ills of socialized medicine are many.
This link (http://www.angelfire.com/pa/sergeman/issues/healthcare/socialized.html) has a decent list of issues. The only reason Canada and GB can afford such an expensive, inefficient system is because they don't spend nearly the money the US does on the military. To do something like this, we'd have to bring the troops home, from the 100+ countries we have them in and drastically downsize our military, and that's just not good politics.

That aside, Canada and Britain are not such great systems from what I've read. Many Canadians feel it's great, but they've been indoctrinated from a young age. They also have nothing to compare it to. The service is bad, and there are no new medical developments like in the US. There's a shortage of practitioners in Canada, which is why you have to wait so long to see a doctor, but the government says that's really just a sign of being efficient. If you need something serious done, you go to the US if you can afford it. In Britain, if you've got the money, you buy private insurance, because the government system is poor.

There's very little, if anything, the government can do well or efficiently. The one thing that maybe government can do is be more fair, although in practice it doesn't happen that way. If it did, however, it'd be the equal sharing of miseries.

It'd be good to get some feedback from the Canadians and Brits.

[RonKMiller]

I started (and sold) a business in British Columbia - and lived there for 9 months - a few years back. I had to prove (as an American) that I had health insurance in the US - or I would not have been granted my immigration status under a work permit.

As long as you are healthy their system is just fine, but when you need a specialist jump on a jet and head South to the US. (all well heeled Canadians do exactly that...)

While I was there a Vancouver (CAN) Sunday paper had a major story on specialists and gave them this grade in the headlines: F

I also ran into a young (relatively poor) former Candadian Olympic medalist skiier who had a badly torn miniscus (sp?) - a common ski injury. She was for all intents and purposes hobbled and 100% disabled. The bad news: She had to wait 14 months for knee surgery.

The good news: it was FREE! :rolleyes:

[gunny]

Historically everything our government involves it'self in, it screws it up, big time. Can't imagine healthcare being any different.

I do not trust my government to look after my best interest, they look after theirs first.

[usmctpdog]

Bobnoxious, I was being sarcastic about the gov't ....I know we cannot afford to be the the worlds police force but that does not seems to stop our government does it? Our Veterans are not being as well cared for as they should be for making the kind of sacrafices we do as the operating arm of the US Govt.

This country is about Big Business and thats why we have so many large company employess lobbying in wash DC.

Our civilian medical is great in some areas and no so good in many others. Nothing is perfect and ours is far from it, but we contiinue to try and make it work.

I would call myself a true conservative but the folks calling themselves that now have perverted that meaning to mean big government, narrow minded and pseudo christian fundamentalist. Bush continues his march to bring about during his tenure as the king, the end of days.

[cfell]

"It is written..."

To God be all the praise, glory and majesty...

[brianbeemer]

That aside, Canada and Britain are not such great systems from what I've read. Many Canadians feel it's great, but they've been indoctrinated from a young age. They also have nothing to compare it to. The service is bad, and there are no new medical developments like in the US. There's a shortage of practitioners in Canada, which is why you have to wait so long to see a doctor, but the government says that's really just a sign of being efficient. If you need something serious done, you go to the US if you can afford it. In Britain, if you've got the money, you buy private insurance, because the government system is poor.

Can't speak for Canada but the British system is actually pretty good - when you really need it. People here buy private health insurance so they can get non-urgent stuff done when they want it and not when the queue says they are next in line.

Cases to consider...
I used to have PMI (Private Medical Insurance) with my last job and my wife needed to see a specialist. Got her private appointment through our GP in 48 hours. Now I don't have PMI any more and wife recently needed another referal - got to see a specialist in 48 hours. PMI made no difference in that case, but it did make a difference when I wanted a cyst removed that was annoying me - the NHS wait was 4 weeks, and the private appointment came through in 7 days.
My first wife sadly died of cancer (long time ago now) and the treatment she received could not have been better. She was in hospital within 24 hours of initial suspected diagnosis, had full current treatment - CT scans, radio-therapy, surgery (they brought in one of the top 2 surgeons in the world to do it), chemo, etc. All free. I reckon she got an additional year or so from a virulent cancer.

Today we think we pay quite a lot for our healthcare system through our taxes - but still only half of what the average American pays in insurance premiums. It's not perfect - but our experience in the US is that it isn't perfect there either. The biggest gripes are about the waste of money on bean counters and management consultants who are measuring government targets for waiting and treatment times. They also charge for carparks too much to help balance the books at hospitals. If you live in a remote area your coverage may be restricted - but that's true anywhere. Oh, and they're spending $70billion on an integrated computer system that no-one believes will work...

The big deal with the NHS is it's there when you need it and free at the point of delivery. There are no prescription charges for children in full time education or for retirees (60 for women, 65 for men) either. Tell that to AARP!

[nelson61]

Thanks for you input Brian.
Thats what I wanted to know people who have to deal with it everyday in their Country.

[meese]

I would call myself a true conservative but the folks calling themselves that now have perverted that meaning to mean big government, narrow minded and pseudo christian fundamentalist.Unfortunately that's true, in the same way that those calling themselves true liberals have lost all sense of touch with the real world, or what the rest of us really want to make our lives better. By definition, any extreme is just going way to far, and is pretty much guranteed to be quite dangerous to everyone.

Bush continues his march to bring about during his tenure as the king, the end of days."It is written..."

To God be all the praise, glory and majesty...Deacon, you're not actually suggesting that you want Bush to bring about WWIII and "nucular" devastation? :eek: You really can't be serious here.

Any time you wanna meet you maker you go right ahead, but please don't drag the rest of us along with you. (Note: Please see extremism comment above.)

[tvguy]

My wife is from Canada and Canadian medicine is great from preventative things (Flu, Prenatal Care, broke bone, etc.) but is sucks for anything big. Heart problems, etc... But its not cheap... Sale tax and Provincial tax is around 15-16% on everything you buy.

[Morley]

The only social medicine program that I'd ever seen/heard of actually "working" was in West Germany, before the reunification. I'd heard that after that all of the East Germans really put a strain on the program.

[ajs]

My wife is from Canada and Canadian medicine is great from preventative things (Flu, Prenatal Care, broke bone, etc.) but is sucks for anything big. Heart problems, etc... But its not cheap... Sale tax and Provincial tax is around 15-16% on everything you buy.
I am a Canadian who over the past 7 or 8 years has had considerable experience with our national health care system and I disagree strongly with your comments regarding serious illness.

It began with me about 7 years ago. I had a serious heart attack was hospitalized immediately and kept in hospital by my specialist until an angiogram was performed which resulted in the identification of three blockages. This resulted in the installation of balloons and stints. Since that time I have enjoyed a great life and do everything I have ever done and then some including some extensive riding two up on our "05 LT. (22,000 km last year.) This year we were on a cross Canada trip when we had to return for the reason described two paragraphs down.

This past April my 35 year old son had a heart attack and went through a similar experience in our health system and was recovering when he had a much more serious attack in June. He suffered major heart damage and his progress is being closely monitored by specialists. At this time they have not decided what is the best for him. They are considering a possible transplant for him in the future.

A couple of weeks after his attack my wife had one too. She was immediately hospitalized and was just released from hospital two days ago with a relatively clean bill of health as heart attacks go. She was found to have no blockages and her heart showed good and strong. It was decided the attack was a one time thing that may never occur again or could happen again at any time.

The result of all this is we are all on heart meds. for the rest of our lives and except for our son are in relatively good health at this time.

For us, this was a major health crisis that would certainly have meant huge costs that in all probability would have bankrupted us all at a time when we were beginning to settle in to retirement. As it is there were and are no costs to us and at no time was there even a thought given to how are we going to pay for any of this. Believe me our lives and the outcome would have been different.

For the rest of our lives, there will be testing and visits to Doctors, including Specialists, to monitor our condition at no cost.

I'll take the Canadian National Health Care System over the alternatives that would have been available to us, had we been U.S. citizens, any day, thank you very much!!!

[gunny]

Micheal Moore should be dipped in poop and then shot for stinking.

[meese]

Micheal Moore should be dipped in poop and then shot for stinking.Just a general comment Gunny, or did you have a point?

Hmm, maybe we should all apply those rules to everyone we disagree with. The only problem is pretty soon we'd run out of poop, and people.

For the record, MM is one of those too extreme folks I mentioned earlier, but he does have some interesting ideas now and again under all the hype.

Do you really want to turn this thread into something ugly (again)? Personally, I figure the sad state of health care, whether socialized or for profit, is ugly enough.

[nelson61]

I didnt want to turn this into a Right or Left debate. Health effects us ALL. Moore has some points. Guess some people just dont want to listen or care.

[Heracleitus]

I didnt want to turn this into a Right or Left debate. Health effects us ALL. Moore has some points. Guess some people just dont want to listen or care.

He does make a couple good points, but he also should make a "documentary" in which scenes are staged (the dude didn't take a boat to Cuba as implied, he flew). Don't feed me a fabrication and tell me it's a fact.

Our health care system is broken, but we still have the finest care available...if you can afford it.

As for Mr. Moore himself, I find him a morally bankrupt, repulsive man and I would never pay to watch anything he produced. I believe in exercising my capitalistic right to not line that extremist's pockets.

For the record, I'm anti-extremist on all accounts. I pray for the day that both the far left and far right fall off and leave the more rational center intact.

[brianbeemer]

Just a general observation on the world: extremism begets extremism... Wouldn't it be nice if everyone just toned down a little bit and actually listened to each other instead of just shouting each other down? There are too many 'if only's' to be sorry about - if only Blair and Bush had listened to Hans Blix, if only Hamas would sit down and negotiate instead of killing innocents, etc etc... Fortunately we no longer have Blair and it looks as if Brown is going to change track quite significantly - I can feel the change in the air already and he's only been in power a few days!

Thinking back on our NHS again, my father died because he didn't receive the care he should have, but it was 50/50 - the doctor was 75 years old and didn't follow through enough with his patients, and was one of those docs who write a prescription to get people through his surgery, and my father was one of those types who never pushed anybody to get what he wanted. Also, after having prostate cancer once my father foolishly didn't go back for regular checkups when he started getting more symptoms, so by the time he did something, and persuaded his pathetic doctor there was something wrong, it was too serious and too late. The system failed him because he let it. Pity, as he could have lived to see his great grandchildren. He was a biker too! I wonder where my love of riding came from - and my son's?????

[KMC1]

It's terrible to hear about tragedies such as that, especially when you're counting on a system put in place to protect you. I think that's one huge reason I'm against a nationalized health care system, I don't want to just be another number. I want to be able to go to a Doctor that knows me, and on a personal level is interested in my well-being.

The U.S. health care system is actually a really good system overall. As has been mentioned several times, it's main problem (s) is the cost of care, the cost of medicine, and so on. What hasn't really been discussed is what is driving that cost, and this is where Europeans I think could benefit from our system more than the NHS types. Litigation. Litigation is what is driving our costs through the roof. People will sue over anything today, and more times than not, will win a sizable award, which of course only continues the cycle even more. I've actually heard of parents of children suing the Obstetrician for a child's reduced intellect due to difficulties with the birth. Apparently there can be brain damage if the child is in the birth canal for too long, not breathing, and the parents tried to prove the Dr. was the cause of this, and this is just one example. And as a result, there is a dearth of Obstetricians, making the wait times for them (if they are even accepting new patients) incredibly long. Also, the malpractice insurance cost for an Obstetrician can be upwards of $150,000.00 per year, while at the same time the premiums are going up, the coverages are going down.

Of course then there are the R&D costs associated with trying to develop a new medicine, which must go through an amazing amount of trial and documentation in order to be approved, we've all heard the stories of people going to Europe to get medicine that is not available here. That's why a bottle of 50 little tablets can cost several hundred dollars.

I think in large part, we can blame ourselves for the costs for our continuing to feed the lawyers, and for having the attitude that if anything doesn't go the way we want, someone must pay. I for one, would rather have a system in place on the litigation side to limit the damages and to put very stringent criteria in place designed to limit litigation before it has even started.

[desertlizard]

My wife had disabling back problems. It took over three years to resolve. I'll try to be brief, but three years of hell with the US insurance system, does not condense very well.

She had what I would call average health insurance through her employer, which limited the number of doctors we could choose. To complicate matters, her employer changed health plans twice during this three-year period and forced us to change doctors. We also fired one doctor.

Nearly every appointment with the primary care doctor consisted of a new test being required which would require approval from the HMO. We could not immediately make an appointment with the specialist, or test center. We first would have get approval from the HMO. This would usually just take a couple of days, although on at least two occasions the HMO would refuse and an appeal would have to be filed. This would stretch it out to a couple of weeks. Then, once the approval was in place, an appointment could be made. We experienced waits of four to six weeks for an MRI. Then at least a week or two wait to get back in to see the primary care guy, or specialist. Waits for neurologist were close to six weeks, and pain specialist two months.

As this was all taking place, she continued to work, and desperately try to keep her job. She went through two discectomy’s. Since she ran out of family leave time, during recovery periods. She then lost her job.

It is at this point, one must go on Cobra, the system that allows you to keep your health insurance for 18 months if Social Security does not grant disability. It seems Social Security automatically denies disability. Her private disability insurance readily accepted her claim, and paid her 60 percent of salary. Thank goodness. Cobra insurance was now our responsibility at considerable cost. After Cobra ran out, we were on our own, and rates went up considerably to approximately $600 a month for her individually. I was subjected to exclusions for private insurance, because of a one-time cholesterol test of 203. No coverage for heart problems. And no coverage for back problems because of a previous motorcycle accident, and subsequent visits to a chiropractor. She eventually had a fusion surgery, which corrected all pain, and led me to buying the LT. Social Security eventually approved her claim of disability after two appeals using a Lawyer supplied by our private disability company. The Judge apologized up and down. However, that does nothing to redress the loss of Cobra. He did, however rule her able to go back to work four weeks after spinal fusion surgery, since she told her doctor she felt “fabulous.” She was still in a clamshell brace, and her surgeon recommended six months of recovery. For my wife “fabulous” was a relative term.

What I learned throughout this ordeal.

1. Arizona has a shortage of qualified doctors. This is in part because of an explosion in population.
2. HMO’s don’t care if the only surgeon that is on your plan has several complaints against them, and eventually will lose their license.
3. Even with health insurance, out of pocket costs can be over twenty thousand dollars. All of our savings are gone, and are slowing being built up again. If you plan on getting sick, have lots of savings.
4. Using a “preferred surgeon” doesn’t necessarily mean you will get a “preferred anesthesiologist.” This will cost more, and be under a separate deductible.
5. Maybe single payer systems have wait times, but so do we.
6. There is a serious problem with our health care system, but it is not with our doctors, who for the most part are good and compassionate, but overwhelmed with insurance requirements.
7. Pharmaceutical companies lie. Oxycontin is very addictive.
8. It helps to keep after Doctors and HMO’s to get treatment. And have a second person in the room at appointments to have two memories of what was said.
9. A surgeon whose surgery fails will often blame the patient. “The pain is in your head.”
10. Family and friends are lifesavers when problems like these arise.

HMO’s and Pharmaceutical companies have their stories told repeatedly. Michael Moore is needed right now to tell the other side. I would have preferred someone else, but no one has done it. I would really like to see the US go to a single payer system, or “socialized medicine” or whatever you would like to call it. It is not giving people something they didn’t work for. The way it is now, everything you work for is taken away, for problems you did not cause. This is just my story, but I believe there are many more like it.

Dale White

[nelson61]

Dale Im sure many more stories like yours are out there.

I started thread like I said I watched the movie and.
2... I went to the doctor to get a "zit" removed from the back of my ear. He had to get the "ok" from the ins company !!!!
Im thinking WTF !! I "Work " pays all this money every month and you can't even do that??? something is wrong with this. Another example some of you may know that I quit smoking..30 days ago :) The drug that I am on Chantix is not covered but my Ins Co. so it costs me 100 bucks a month. You would think they would give you this and in the long run save all kinds of claims of smoking related problems.
Go figure.

By the way ..I know I have shit HMO no need to go there. It would be nice not to have to worry what I have.

[Bobnoxous]

Bobnoxious, I was being sarcastic about the gov't ....I know we cannot afford to be the the worlds police force but that does not seems to stop our government does it? Our Veterans are not being as well cared for as they should be for making the kind of sacrafices we do as the operating arm of the US Govt.No question about it. Whatever we may feel about how the military is used, the people in the military deserve to be cared for. Walter Reed is an embarrassment, and a shame.

Whether you believe in free enterprise, corporatism or socialism when it comes to health care, to make intelligent decisions you need to look at how the whole system works. Some people have had great experiences with socialized medicine, and some have not. I've been quite happy with my American system experiences, but some haven't. The questions are, what cost, and how well does it do overall. People pushing for one side or the other can always find examples of failures. Any system will fail some times.

I prefer to give myself some control over who provides my health care. I like being in control. I'm just not willing to give that up to some bureaucrats, who don't care about me or my family. The American system has problems, but to think the government can run it better, if we just elect the right people, is scary. I haven't seen much evidence of competence in our government in a long time.

But, maybe if we go socialized, I can make money in the black market selling drugs to people who need them. Government interference in the market always creates a business opportunity. Look at how wealthy the drug lords have become since drug prohibition.

[Bobnoxous]

Another example some of you may know that I quit smoking..30 days ago :) The drug that I am on Chantix is not covered but my Ins Co. so it costs me 100 bucks a month. You would think they would give you this and in the long run save all kinds of claims of smoking related problems.
Go figure.But the insurance company doesn't know if they'll be the ones to benefit, or someone else. You don't have to keep using them forever. Of course, if the government is your insurance provider, then it's a different story. There are some pros to a socialized system, but I don't believe they would come close to offsetting the negatives.

[BillyOmaha]

Howdy Nelson, Gang,

The fact of the matter is that we, the U.S. does have socialized medicine. It just doesn't look like other models.

The vast majority of the population is "covered" by private insurance through employment. While this is private, it is promoted by government incentives. Those that are older are covered by Medicare. Those that cannot afford to self-insure, or choose not to by choice, will pay out of pocket for services until they meet the level of wealth to be covered by Medicare. In short, it is a patchwork of coverage that seems, is, very complicated. But does seem to work.

I think the real issue, at least for me, is why is the system so complicated. A lot of the models, some of which MM holds up as examples, look so good. Quite simple and rather effective. That, IMO, is a bit naive a viewpoint. Most other countries do not have the size of population, demand for competition, drive for research and development and they are not willing to spend their resources accordingly. In short, most wealthy countries are willing to spend only about half what the U.S. spends. There is not a valid comparison between Canada and the U.S.

Canada has less than the population of California and the natural wealth of a huge country. It is relatively easy for them to convert natural national wealth into subsidized benefits for society. Additionally, because they live in the shade of an elephant to the south, they need not spend on keeping the lions at bay. It's not good or bad, just that countries reality.

In the U.S., if we were to go to a single payer system, paid by the U.S. Gov't, it would be huge. So large that it is scary in the extreme. Right now the U.S. medical industry accounts for roughly 16% of GDP, or roughly $2 Trillion. It DWARFS MILITARY EXPENDITURES AND EQUALS THE ENTIRE NATIONAL BUDGET FOR THE U.S. For the government to step in and try to manage how that large a segment of the economy is going to managed should give everyone pause.

Note, I'm not saying there isn't room for big improvements in how we provide health care. I want it to be simple, easy, efficient and national in nature. We're too wealthy of a country to force our fellow citizens to loose their net worth do to a lapse in coverage.

I am saying it's not quite as easy as some would have us believe.

.

[bmwrider79]

Rant on

Name one thing Govt does really good besides make a great military force and collect taxes? NOT MUCH. And any one who things it will be better with the Govt handling it? yeah right.

The insurance companies are are a bunch of crooks as well as the judges and lawyers that participate in frivilious law suits.

Health care cost will go down when tort reform really happens. Like if you sue some one and loose you pay ALL the bills for both parties. Lets remove the lure of big money for litigation.

Rant off

Now lets work on all of our personal integrity.

[Morley]

If our Govt. were to manage this country's health care system, the only ones that would get health care would be the illegals.

[Heracleitus]

If our Govt. were to manage this country's health care system, the only ones that would get health care would be the illegals.

That's the second post that made me choke on my coffee this morning! :rotf:

[ldbikin]

That is pretty funny, heheh...

Personally, if the gov't would get it's nose out of the health biz right now, like, eliminate all the worthless paperwork needed and the people who manage it, we'd have more than enuff money left to take care of everyone in this country based simply on what their doc' wants to do.

Its a huge papermill, bolstered by reg's and laws designed to keep you from getting the help you need IMHO.

I know folks have to get paid when they work and healthcare is no different. But something has to give.

I've lived with a healthcare pro for oh, mmm...35+ yrs now. We've run into the same problems/issues stated here. However, the big difference is, she knows the system and knows how to fix the problems. Which indicates to me, that folks who don't know are getting screwed just by having to spend half their waking moments writing, calling, begging, etc to get issues resolved. Makes me sick, no pun intended.

[Bobnoxous]

Right now the U.S. medical industry accounts for roughly 16% of GDP, or roughly $2 Trillion. It DWARFS MILITARY EXPENDITURES AND EQUALS THE ENTIRE NATIONAL BUDGET FOR THE U.S. For the government to step in and try to manage how that large a segment of the economy is going to managed should give everyone pause.Excellent! Some numbers we can talk about. I'm sure whatever politicians push for socialized health care will "have a way", though. You just have to use that funny math, where you borrow from your grandchildren. Kind of like social insecurity.

[brianbeemer]

It's terrible to hear about tragedies such as that, ..... I think that's one huge reason I'm against a nationalized health care system, I don't want to just be another number. I want to be able to go to a Doctor that knows me, and on a personal level is interested in my well-being.
The 'tragedy' had nothing to do with a nationalised health care system, and if you live in a remote part of the country and the local doctor is counting the days until his replacement comes along because he's 75 and wants out, then there's not a lot you can do, except move perhaps? As I also said, there was 50% of the blame with the 'patient'... I'm sure that happens everywhere, good system or crap.

There are cruddy doctors in the US too - we had one when we lived in Maryland and had one of those amazing plans that let you go to anyone at any time with only a small deductible ($1k annual for the whole family). Yeah, I had a great employer at the time! The problem with that plan was none of the doctors was really interested in getting to know us because they knew we had that plan and we could go anywhere at any time - they didn't want to put in the effort. And why should they when we were transient workers?

My wife's father was a doctor, and her mother, and her stepmother was a nurse (so was mine during WW2) so I do know a bit about the medical system in the US from both sides of the fence. SWMBO's even doing her own doctorate in psychology......

I wonder if those fancy medical plans still exist, and what they would cost today??? I know when we move back to MA we are going to have to pay for cover by local law now, or lose the personal tax deduction. Nice one Mass! I wonder what the plan will cost ...

[BUGKILLER]

We do have social medicine in the form of federally funded county hospitals. Locally the King Drew Med Center in LA County is collapsing under the weight of free health care. If you want a good current model of our governments ability to manage healthcare just look at the VA and how badly our vets get treated. Bob Dornan from Orange County had the right idea. Close the VA and use 9 of the 12 billion we spend on the VA to buy Blue Cross policies for the vets and there entire families. Use the extra 3 billion on something else like our school system. There is no simple solution but I agree with others when they say that we can always find money for a war but not a nickle to cure cancer,aids or get a fuel system to get 100 mpg.