Rear Drive - Another One Bites The Dust!

[cccpastorjack]

Well...I have had just about all I can stand of this wonderfully engineered German bike!!! :mad:

I was riding along today and started feeling a roughness in the rear wheel area...thought I might have a flat but no, that wasn't it. It felt kinda' like riding on pavement that a bulldozer had damaged, but went away. It started tarted back pretty soon and when I got her home I noticed Gear Oil leaking onto the back tire. Diagnosis? My rear drive has failed. (see pics)

Now...note the following:
My bike is a 2001 K1200LT
47k miles
Maintained zealously - Gear oil changed twice in less than a year

And yet, in less than a year of ownership, I have had the "privilege" of replacing the Slave Cylinder (leaking), the entire clutch, and now the rear drive. Honestly, I have owned bikes all my life and I have never owned a less reliable bike. My apologies to every Harley rider I have ever insulted.

Does anyone have any idea how much it costs (approx) to have a rear drive rebuilt by a dealer??? It is now off the bike.

[Dean_BMW]

Well...I have had just about all I can stand of this wonderfully engineered German bike!!! :mad:

And yet, in less than a year of ownership, I have had the "privilege" of replacing the Slave Cylinder (leaking), the entire clutch, and now the rear drive. Honestly, I have owned bikes all my life and I have never owned a less reliable bike. My apologies to every Harley rider I have ever insulted.


Geeze...that stings! But I don't blame you.

If it makes you feel any better, I had a BMW dealer service manager to tell me just two days ago that the drive failure on the LT was a very low percentage. I wanted to ask him what he was smoking!

[Sofitel505]

When mine failed in '04, I was lucky enough to be under the mileage to be covered even though I was past the monthly. The dealer replaced the entire drive with factory new. They could have gone the cheap route and rebuilt, but the service manager advised against it. Said he had seen too many returns and second failures after rebuilding. The tolerances and preload have to be right on and most techs don't have the experience/skill to do it right.

My advice? Go new if you plan to keep the thing. If you are fed up enough to sell it anyway, rebuild. If you plan to keep it, use the Redline Shockproof heavy lube in it after a 500 mile breakin. I've got 25000 miles on my new drive and have yet to see more than a pinhead of grey paste on the magnet (I change the lube at every oil/filter change). Lets face it. The drive design sucks and is very under-engineered for the loads it is subjected to. A non-conventional lube is needed to keep these things alive.

[KMC1]

That sucks Jack.
Get ready for those guys who believe the brand is their image to start bashing you for telling the truth about these crappy beemers. Of course when it happens to them, they "just fix the damn thing and keep ridin it!" :rolleyes:
When you find out what the costs are etc. let us know, I'll be watching this thread to prepare myself for the inevitable.

[cccpastorjack]

Well,

I don't mind saying that my LT rides better than any bike I have ever owned, but man...it (mine) just is not dependable. I still need to know if anyone has an idea on what a dealer would charge to rebuild mine. Anyone know?

[Jerrym]

Well...I have had just about all I can stand of this wonderfully engineered German bike!!! :mad:

I was riding along today and started feeling a roughness in the rear wheel area...thought I might have a flat but no, that wasn't it. It felt kinda' like riding on pavement that a bulldozer had damaged, but went away. It started tarted back pretty soon and when I got her home I noticed Gear Oil leaking onto the back tire. Diagnosis? My rear drive has failed. (see pics)

Now...note the following:
My bike is a 2001 K1200LT
47k miles
Maintained zealously - Gear oil changed twice in less than a year

And yet, in less than a year of ownership, I have had the "privilege" of replacing the Slave Cylinder (leaking), the entire clutch, and now the rear drive. Honestly, I have owned bikes all my life and I have never owned a less reliable bike. My apologies to every Harley rider I have ever insulted.

Does anyone have any idea how much it costs (approx) to have a rear drive rebuilt by a dealer??? It is now off the bike.

I know just how you feel. I have a 2005, at I just had a new rear drive put in. It had 41,281 miles on it. I was lucky I caught it before it when out. I had the oil analysis and it shown aluminum and iron in the oil. When they tore it a part the crown bearing that was a press fit was turning on the shaft. Again I was lucky and had extender warranty and it paid the 1,500 dollars less the 25.00 dollars deductible and 80.00 next day air. I love the LT but I am not sure I would buy another new one but I do not know what to replace it with. They just do not seen real dependable.

[Jerrym]

Well,

I don't mind saying that my LT rides better than any bike I have ever owned, but man...it (mine) just is not dependable. I still need to know if anyone has an idea on what a dealer would charge to rebuild mine. Anyone know?

On mind it cost less to purchase a new one than to repair it with the labor. A new rear drive is $996.00 and Chicago BMW shows $796.80. Labor and the drive on mind was $1,420.

[cfmpilot]

[QUOTE=cccpastorjack]Well...I have had just about all I can stand of this wonderfully engineered German bike!!! :mad:

I feel for you. Maybe this is how the Evil One is trying your patience, with German engineering.

[Dean_BMW]

That sucks Jack.
Get ready for those guys who believe the brand is their image to start bashing you for telling the truth about these crappy beemers.
I don't think these discussions about the high failure components such as the rear drive, and slave cylinder are bashing. Nor do I think the LT is a "crappy beemer". The failure rate is too high... that's easy to see. At the same time, I have always been willing to talk about the good things about the bike too. Heck, if there weren't more good things about the bike than bad, we would all just get rid of them. While I don't shy away from the threads about failures, I don't consider myself a basher of the LT.

For all of you guys that think the bike reliability is just fine, I am happy for you. I wish I were in your camp. Right now, I weigh the good with the bad and I am still riding the LT... next year.... maybe not! Time will tell.

[Moonshine]

Paster Jack
get a new replacement with a warranty. I see that you have already removed the final drive so all you have to do is bolt up the replacement drive. I have been through this & I chose to rebuild and that meant replacing every bearing and seal in the final drive & setting all of the bearing & gear clearances by a dealer that has all of the jigs & tools. $350 for parts & $400 labor to do a complete rebuild. It is cost effective to just replace it with new & sell your trashed unit. If I knew then what I know now mine would have been a new final drive. Are we having fun yet???

[bowlesj]

Man, really sorry to hear about this Jack. I am very close to turning the 40K corner and will be holding my breath.

I will probably just buy a new one or a used triked one when mine goes.



BTW. Something in the back of my mind is telling me Jesse said something about that rear drive while under warranty - or maybe I have your bike mixed up with someone else. If he did have a rebuild, I have always been suspicious of the lash settings on rebuilds etc.

[alanforn]

Sorry to hear the bad news Jack, I dropped mine off at the dealer today for what I believe is gonna be a failure too,(03 with 48,000). The only good news is that they gave me a brand new R1200R to get around on,(Bob's service guy's rock!). Made me realize just how heavy the LT is. Almost catapulted the R1200 thru the garage wall when I put it on the centerstand.
It is a shame that such a wonderful bike like the LT,(and GT?) is plagued with issues like this. Thankfully I had the foresight, (thanks to this site and reading of such problems), to purchase an aftermarket warranty for an additional 84 months. I have a feeling it's gonna pay for itself quick..

[munson]

Well...I have had just about all I can stand of this wonderfully engineered German bike!!! :mad:
Sorry to hear it, pastor. I had my final drive bearing on my 2001 LT replaced pro actively at about 48k miles, just before we rode to Breckenridge for CCR. It cost around $350.00 as I recall, and was worth the price for the peace of mind. The bearing that came out was in pristine condition. I still have it. At around 88k, rear main seal started leaking, and then the clutch started slipping. Then I totaled it shortly thereafter. These bikes are wonderful when everything is working right, and downright infuriating when they mess up. I guess that's the nature of worldly things.

[cccpastorjack]

Well,

Looks like I am probably going to price a brand new one and go from there. I'm a bit nervous about letting the dealer rebuild it anyway. Anyone else out there purchased a new one? How much did you pay?
BTW, I love my LT...in spite of its shortcomings... It is just frustrating that BMW hasn't acknowledged a problem or ordered a recall. It's really pitiful behavior on their part.

[info]

I am really concerned. I've got an 06 LT with low miles and
I already don't like the way the rear "feels."
I also have an FJR and it is nice to know that Yamaha is
covering "the dreaded tick" out of warranty and even if
not the original owner. Nice to know some companies provide
customer service when they realize there is a fault!
(Mine is not a ticker BTW)
BMW=Buy More Warranty!
I remember my 04 K12GT had cold start problems and they replaced
a bunch of ECUs up until a certain date and then you were on your
own for replacement. No letter from BMW, read it on the internet!
This may be my last of four I've had.

[Dean_BMW]

Well,

Looks like I am probably going to price a brand new one and go from there. I'm a bit nervous about letting the dealer rebuild it anyway. Anyone else out there purchased a new one? How much did you pay?
BTW, I love my LT...in spite of its shortcomings... It is just frustrating that BMW hasn't acknowledged a problem or ordered a recall. It's really pitiful behavior on their part.
From what I have heard, Chicago BMW is always pretty aggressive with their discounts as compared to other dealers. But they do have a reputation of being slow to ship... so you may want to weigh that into your decision.

As previously reported in this thread by JerryM, looks like Chicago gets $796.80

[Dean_BMW]

BTW, there is an '07 on ebay that was supposed to have been removed from a trike at 25 miles... has a buy it now for $349 and $30 bucks shipping... don't know if an '07 will fit your bike though.

[Dick]

Well,

Looks like I am probably going to price a brand new one and go from there. I'm a bit nervous about letting the dealer rebuild it anyway. Anyone else out there purchased a new one? How much did you pay?
BTW, I love my LT...in spite of its shortcomings... It is just frustrating that BMW hasn't acknowledged a problem or ordered a recall. It's really pitiful behavior on their part.
Jack - just to give you some comparo figures. Deep6Auctions has two final drives for sale, both used. They belong on late model LTs (even tho they say they'll fit all models - they're not for the '99 - '03/'04 as they have no speedo/ABS fitting flange), and each one is listed for $599. I think I'd go new if Chicago BMW's price is correct. HTH.

BTW - bummers on the 'happening'. As careful as you are about maintenance on your bike, this has got to be 'numbing' to say the least. Good luck with the fix, Jack. I know you'll keep us posted. Oh, yeah - back when ole Toad's final went south, the bearing cost wuz ~$150 and the labor wuz for maybe 4 hours, IIRC. We're still rockin' along with the repair, having a total of 120K now, and 65K at the failure.

[cccpastorjack]

BTW, there is an '05 on ebay that was supposed to have been removed from a trike at 25 miles... has a buy it now for $349 and $30 bucks shipping... don't know if an '05 will fit your bike though.


Yea, I saw that one, but it won't work on my bike. Thanks guys for all the help.

Now... Did I forget to mention the "LOVE OFFERING" we'll be taking tonight? :histerica

[rkimmel2]

Obviously, these failures pose a significant safety issue. If this were going on with a car, owners would report to a government agency and after enough complaints, the company is forced to do a recall.

If a $20,000.00 car leaked oil all over the brakes and tires after 20-60000 miles, there would be a recall or a bankruptcy.

[Dean_BMW]

You could rebuild it yourself, and produce a high quality "repair it yourself" video while you are doing it. Then you could sell the videos, to pay for your final drive. Evidently, many of us could use a good video in the future. :)

I am surprised that some good mechanic with the right tools is not buying up old drives and re-building them and selling them with a warranty. If you bought your parts from someone besides BMW, it wouldn't really cost that much to re-build one. Seems like David Shealey found some aftermarket bearings at one time.

[BecketMa]

We still don't know why they fail.

It could be an assembly problem, or a design problem.

If it is an assembly problem, can your local dealer do a better job re-building it, than BMW did when they made it?

Bob

[jzeiler]

In order to do a "recall" they have to have a "fix". So far I have seen no evidence there IS a "fix", other that replace and hope.

[BecketMa]

Our best recall is to recall when BMW would actually pay for some of the cost to replace the rear end. Or, we could recall when a few LTs died enroute to a gathering, and BMW didn't have a single replacement rear end in the USA.

Uuuum. Maybe we'd be better off with out recall?

Bob

[cccpastorjack]

Does anyone know for sure if an '02 rear drive will fit my '01????

Here are pics of mine with the speedo/abs fitting flange area noted. I THINK the changes to the rear drive occured around 04, but just want to be dead sure.

[bowlesj]

Does anyone know for sure if an '02 rear drive will fit my '01????

Here are pics of mine with the speedo/abs fitting flange area noted. I THINK the changes to the rear drive occured around 04, but just want to be dead sure.

No. Fit yes, work no. We don't have that speed sensor port your arrow points to.

Isn't that your speedo/ABS pick up. Our sensor mounts between the wheel and rear drive and picks up a toothed ring.

[sheldan2]

Jack here is a pic of my rear drive, 02 model

[cccpastorjack]

Jack here is a pic of my rear drive, 02 model



AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :(

[Moonshine]

Paster Jack,
If you purchase a good used final drive make sure the pivot needle bearings are good, they should be nice & smooth when you turn them with your finger. If you purchase new make sure the pivot needle bearings are included.

[cccpastorjack]

Paster Jack,
If you purchase a good used final drive make sure the pivot needle bearings are good, they should be nice & smooth when you turn them with your finger. If you purchase new make sure the pivot needle bearings are included.


Yep...that's great advice. BTW, I had just replaced mine about 6 mos ago! :(

[hallzee]

Jack, sorry to hear about your bike! I guess I am just lucky - I have over 100,000 miles on BMWs, and have never had any kind of failure mechanically that left me stranded, or with a 'dead bike'. Just routine maintenance, that caught some issues of course.

[kr4mo]

I havent' had the rear drive failure YET on my 02 with 30K on the odometer.
But I did purchase a replacement rear drive unit. Got mine from Hannigan in Western KY. It came off a low mileage 04 that they had put the trike kit on.
There is a guy on ebay selling these drives, he's in Murray KY, which is close to the Hannigan factory. I figure he's a savvy local or an employee of theirs making a buck on em. His opening bid is $199, and a buy it now of $299, plus shipping. Lots cheaper than a rebuild, if you don't mind used parts.
Roy ROwlett
02 K1200LT
84 R65
64 R69S
69 Honda CT90
73 Honda TL125

[hoodoodrum]

Bought mine as a spare and paid $800 in 2003. Even changed the bearing out in the new one to a 19 ball. Still sits awaiting my original to fail......

Well,

Looks like I am probably going to price a brand new one and go from there. I'm a bit nervous about letting the dealer rebuild it anyway. Anyone else out there purchased a new one? How much did you pay?
BTW, I love my LT...in spite of its shortcomings... It is just frustrating that BMW hasn't acknowledged a problem or ordered a recall. It's really pitiful behavior on their part.

[kdog]

Bought mine as a spare and paid $800 in 2003. Even changed the bearing out in the new one to a 19 ball. Still sits awaiting my original to fail......

Hate to say this Tim, but changing the bearing out on your new drive was a bad idea. The whole problem with these drives is that they're very hard to set up correctly. You most likely took a properly set up drive and screwed it up.

Regards,
-joel

[Richdude]

Jack

Mine '99 failed in 2003 on a cross country trip at 32000 miles. Symptoms and conditions identical to yours. I happen to be near BOB's BMW in Maryland. They replaced bearing and seals. $165 parts, 2.75hr labor; total $349.69. I was on on my way in 3 hours. Technically out of warranty but they submitted it anyway and BMW paid it.

Two years later, 55000 miles, it was rough, but not leaking. My San Diego dealer rebuilt it a 2nd time. BMW paid it again.

If you decide to have it rebuilt, find a dealer that will at least try for warranty regardless years or miles. BMW knows they've got a weak design and if pushed hard enough will make it right.

Good luck
Richard

[kdog]

Mine '99 failed in 2003 on a cross country trip at 32000 miles. Symptoms and conditions identical to yours.
...
Two years later, 55000 miles, it was rough, but not leaking. My San Diego dealer rebuilt it a 2nd time. BMW paid it again.
ough will make it right.

Yup. Rebuilds are typically only a temporary solution, unless the person who rebuilds it really knows what they're doing.

[cccpastorjack]

Guys,

Received the failed abs sensor, installed it myself, took it back to the shop and they reset the lights. No more problemo! Thanks for all the help!

[Voyager]

Recalls are often triggered when enough people complain to NHTSA. Are all of you folks with LT final drive failures filing a complaint with the NHTSA? That is the best way to get a recall initiated. And remember that recalls are only for safety related issues, so be sure to mention oil on the rear brake and tire. Simple failures aren't subject to a recall initiated by the Feds.

Voyager

[CajunBass]

I have never belonged to an auto club until I bought my LT. After reading a few threads like this one, I joined one, and made sure that motorcycle towing was covered. At least I know I'll be able to get it home.

[cccpastorjack]

Recalls are often triggered when enough people complain to NHTSA. Are all of you folks with LT final drive failures filing a complaint with the NHTSA? That is the best way to get a recall initiated. And remember that recalls are only for safety related issues, so be sure to mention oil on the rear brake and tire. Simple failures aren't subject to a recall initiated by the Feds.

Voyager


I certainly did report it AND detailed the gear oil leaking onto my rear tire...the instability caused by the failure AND the gear oil all over the rear caliper. You are correct...EVERYONE needs to report these failures.

[hoodoodrum]

Hate to say this Tim, but changing the bearing out on your new drive was a bad idea. The whole problem with these drives is that they're very hard to set up correctly. You most likely took a properly set up drive and screwed it up.

Regards,
-joel

Joel, Yes that did cross my mind, but I had the drive set up to identical specs from the service manual at a top notch racing engine machine shop. They paid very close attention to detail and had the equipment to do the job right (I hope). The local dealers said all they'd do is change it (swap bearings) and test it (WRONG)!! I ran the drive for two thousand miles to make reasonably sure it was done well. Ran perfect and not one spec of metal came off in the fluid or magnet. I wouldn't lay down any bet on even a brand new drive un-opened to never fail early. They can and will at any time 2k or 120k miles. Crap shoot.

BTW.. Is there any dealer out there that will double check the specs on a drive with proper tools and knowledge???

[kdog]

Tim, my assumption is that they fixed the problem at some point, so a new drive is better than a rebuilt. However, that's a big assumption without any help whatsoever from BMW Motorrad, so there's no way of knowing for sure.

It sounds to me that you had a highly qualified shop basically blueprint your drive. If that's the case, then I agree that you're probably better off than with the factory job. The fact that new model bikes are still blowing up drives doesn't give one a lot of confidence in BMW's ability to build a reliable drive.

And I wouldn't trust a dealer to rebuild my drive unless I sat there and watched them, which would never happen.

best ',
-joel

[FridayBob]

Jack,
My rear drive failed on my way to the Grand Teton CCR in '05.
Riding 2-up, 82,355 miles.
Total cost:
New Rear Drive: $922.50
Rear brake pad repair kit: $42.50 (pads were saturated)
Gear Lube: $4.99
Labor: $90
"Shop supplies": $92.00 ( I didn't see this til just now, and THAT really pisses me off!)
Tax: $80.64
Total: $1,232.63

Bak BMW in Sioux City, IA wanted to rebuild at first, but I told them absolutely not. Got a new one, which led to an additional 3 day delay. We rented a car to complete the CCR trip, and picked up the bike on the way back. It worked out okay, but what a giant hassle.

Then my ABS pump failed last month, but I'm still riding with conventional brakes.
Radio display went opaque under warranty a long time ago. Replaced for free.

Clutch was slipping badly at about 35,000 miles, BMWNA and I shared that cost. The clutch showed no signs of oil contamination, I think it is just too small.

Front fork seals failed recently (95,000 miles), but that might be normal. About $450.00 plus new front brake pads that were saturated with oil.

But with 100,000 miles now and still going strong, I'm still happy with the bike.

[cccpastorjack]

Jack,
My rear drive failed on my way to the Grand Teton CCR in '05.
Riding 2-up, 82,355 miles.
Total cost:
New Rear Drive: $922.50
Rear brake pad repair kit: $42.50 (pads were saturated)
Gear Lube: $4.99
Labor: $90
"Shop supplies": $92.00 ( I didn't see this til just now, and THAT really pisses me off!)Tax: $80.64
Total: $1,232.63

Bak BMW in Sioux City, IA wanted to rebuild at first, but I told them absolutely not. Got a new one, which led to an additional 3 day delay. We rented a car to complete the CCR trip, and picked up the bike on the way back. It worked out okay, but what a giant hassle.

Then my ABS pump failed last month, but I'm still riding with conventional brakes.
Radio display went opaque under warranty a long time ago. Replaced for free.

Clutch was slipping badly at about 35,000 miles, BMWNA and I shared that cost. The clutch showed no signs of oil contamination, I think it is just too small.

Front fork seals failed recently (95,000 miles), but that might be normal. About $450.00 plus new front brake pads that were saturated with oil.

But with 100,000 miles now and still going strong, I'm still happy with the bike.


Didn't you know that "Shop Supplies" includes a case of beer and a couple of hookers? :histerica

Man...some of these bike shops have no conscience. The stories just get better and better. Sorry you had to endure it! And how much fun was it to go to CCR in a CAR!!!!! :mad:

[Ted]

Didn't you know that "Shop Supplies" includes a case of beer and a couple of hookers? :histerica

cost of "living" must be a lot less in NC!

[cccpastorjack]

cost of "living" must be a lot less in NC!


Actually, the "work" was done in IOWA!!!!! :histerica

[Ted]

Actually, the "work" was done in IOWA!!!!! :histerica

I know - I didn't think you'd be familiar w/ the "labor" rates there, too, pastor.

:-)

[hoodoodrum]

Tim, my assumption is that they fixed the problem at some point, so a new drive is better than a rebuilt. However, that's a big assumption without any help whatsoever from BMW Motorrad, so there's no way of knowing for sure.

It sounds to me that you had a highly qualified shop basically blueprint your drive. If that's the case, then I agree that you're probably better off than with the factory job. The fact that new model bikes are still blowing up drives doesn't give one a lot of confidence in BMW's ability to build a reliable drive.

And I wouldn't trust a dealer to rebuild my drive unless I sat there and watched them, which would never happen.

best ',
-joel

Joel, my basic reason for switching a "brand spanking new drive (bearing)" was that some of the suspicions worldwide about failure are due to improper factory seating of the bearing on the crown gear itself. Some have thought they were just pressed hydraulically onto the gear in a dang hurry placing some trauma on the bearings prior to being fully assembled after the proper shimming. The shop I used used a precision press touching only the inner race and then double checked proper seating plus input shaft bevel tooth and crown tooth alignment per the BMW manual. The new bearing was the 19 ball as well.

Could mean absolutely nothing if the components and design are pure dog crap anyhow..... Who knows!!!!!!! :rolleyes: