Personal Protection while travelling...

[Florian]

Fellas,

Im planning a long journey this summer with the sig. other on my LT. It will be the first major (10-14) day road journey we have taken and it will include some desolate roads out West. Question is, what do people carry for personal protection while travelling? I do own handguns and am licenced for Concealed Carry here in OH, but is it smart (legal or not) to carry a weapon while travelling>?
Id love to hear what you have done on your own journeys....


F

[Morley]

I've driven coast to coast a few times and extensively in the mid-west...I carried my S&W .45 ACP

[cfell]

http://www.texaspolicecentral.com/gun_laws.html

It "may" be legal... however, there is great responsibility as most "gun owners" understand and accept... Your "call".

Some folks carry on person, others in tank bag, etc.

I definitely would NOT carry tucked in my saddlebag under a ton of stuffing.

[sanjaun2]

Make sure you do not cross the borders to the north or south. They are less gun friendly then the us. I have done a lot of trips around the west and have never needed a back up. There is always the first time I guess. Do bring a good camera.

[deputy5211]

I carry pretty much everywhere, all the time. But then, federal law permits me to carry as long as I have my creds with me. Not bragging, just framing my remarks.

Regarding civilian carry interstate, your concealed carry permit from OH may have some reciprocal privileges in other states. Check with the issuing agency for details on this possibility. Also be mindful what the laws are in the states you are traveling through.

At the end of the day, each person has to make their own decision about whether to carry, what to carry, and where to carry. The good Deacon's point about not keeping it in a saddlebag buried beneath a bunch of stuff is a good one. If you truly need it, will you be able to get to it? For that matter, how do you define "need it?" If your version of "need" doesn't synch up with the local LEOs', you may find yourself facing a different challenge.

Generally, I don't have a problem with concealed carry. Just keep it concealed and be smart about it. Again, each of has our own view of what that means, but it's prolly not a good idea to brandish your firearm at the waitress when your steak comes well done after you specifically asked for medium-rare. Of course, I could be wrong, I often am. :D

[rdwalker]

Fellas,
Im planning a long journey this summer with the sig. other on my LT. It will be the first major (10-14) day road journey we have taken and it will include some desolate roads out West. Question is, what do people carry for personal protection while travelling? I do own handguns and am licenced for Concealed Carry here in OH, but is it smart (legal or not) to carry a weapon while travelling>?
Id love to hear what you have done on your own journeys....
F

I'd worry more about accident insurance, towing protection and even evacuation service (like MedJet). It's the soccer mom in her SUV/minivan who is going to get you, not the armed bandidos.

Guns? I could not even imagine a situation where that would be of use and not endangering yourself. Give our fellow citizens a bit more credit... Do you really think that there will be occasions for a gun battle en route?

And on the practical side, let's say, you are accosted by Billy the Kid. Most likely you are on your bike at the time, nervously looking for neutral to free up your hands, then shedding your gloves, unzipping your suit, trying to pull out the weapon for the showdown at the corral. Unless your adversaries are polite enough to wait, the shootout is over.

Or, am I missing something?

[Florian]

I'd worry more about accident insurance, towing protection and even evacuation service (like MedJet). It's the soccer mom in her SUV/minivan who is going to get you, not the armed bandidos.

Guns? I could not even imagine a situation where that would be of use and not endangering yourself. Give our fellow citizens a bit more credit... Do you really think that there will be occasions for a gun battle en route?

And on the practical side, let's say, you are accosted by Billy the Kid. Most likely you are on your bike at the time, nervously looking for neutral to free up your hands, then shedding your gloves, unzipping your suit, trying to pull out the weapon for the showdown at the corral. Unless your adversaries are polite enough to wait, the shootout is over.

Or, am I missing something?

Situations may include things like changing a tire and being vulnerable. I have heard stories of people caught by local rowdies lookin to grab a fellas wallet/throw him a beating for kicks...that type of BS....


F

[Morley]

And on the practical side, let's say, you are accosted by Billy the Kid.
I was thinking more along the lines of wildlife while out in the deserted midwest...especially if you are camping along the way. After seeing the packs of cyotes out in the high desert...musta been about 40-50 of them at the "watering hole".

[hendsv]

A Ruger .357 5-shot snub is easy to pack in MC luggage for hotel rooms/campsites, or to carry. Not much good for anything except last resort personal protection but utterly reliable.

For interstate travel with any firearms the best concise guide I've found is the "Traveler's Guide to the Firearms Laws of the Fifty States" written by a lawyer in Kentucky and updated every year. The guide is only $12.00-15.00 or so and is available from: Traveler's Guide, P.O. Box 2156, Covington, KY 41012. You can also buy on-line at: www.gunlawguide.com.

I get a new one every couple of years just to keep up to date.

Steve

[atrovarious]

I agree with RDWALKER, I've never needed a gun and though I've been pistol whipped with one (from behind) alot of good my packing would have done. I still have that guy's gun btw, poor bastard. Guns are for cowards imho, and that includes law enforcement :histerica

Oh here it comes, let me have it :rotf:

[LodiHal]

Another thought, there are many good museums located on military bases, and if you might want to visit one you definitely don't want to have a firearm with you.

[harrowbmw]

Greetings all.

OK, enough. You're all beginning to frighten us Australians here now. Well, me anyhow!

Good luck to you if you think you need guns.

Kindest regards to all

Paul Harrington
AU

corcaigh@internode.on.net

[Daman858]

You can find out on the 'net what other states recognize your Ohio carry permit. I would suggest a S&W Airlight Centenial .357. (titanium). Weighs only 12.5 oz. Has a hammer schroud so it won't get caught on your clothes.

[grifscoots]

You can find out on the 'net what other states recognize your Ohio carry permit.

http://www.ccrkba.org/reciprocity.html

[was]

I carry Speed Stick by Mennen. Says it right on the cap, "Protection you can count on."

(Just kidding, but I don't know how to add a Just Kidding face thingy.)

[jgburns]

I've carried a handgun on motorcycle, back-packing, camping and driving trips before, but most of the time, especially the last ten years, I've left the gun in the safe at home. Under one circumstance (out of dozens of trips when I carried), I felt safer having a hand gun with me. Most of the time, it was like having to babysit a young child (don't want it to fall into the wrong hands).

I share my story because a few critics in this thread seem to think it is down right stupid to carry.

At a mountain wilderness campsite (backpacking, not a motorcycle trip, fifteen years ago) two bad-looking guys approached our campsite while I was taking a mid afternoon nap. My wife was fishing a few hundred feet from our tent at the river about sixty feet lower than campsite. I woke when I heard the guys approached our campsite. I pulled the S&W 357 from my fanny-pack as I spied on them through the tent window. Apparently, they did not know I was in the tent.

One guy moved down stream (at the top the bank) while the other moved upstream, both intently watching my wife. I snuck out the tent and approached the guy who was upstream because he was closer to Debi. The gun was holstered behind my back while I kept my distance and spoke to him. I was scared out of my mind and the adrenalin was flowing. It's been a long while, so I don't recall what was said back and forth, but it involved yelling when the guy asserted it was his right to be there (a 1/2 acre occupied campsite in 1 million acre national forest). When the guy started to approach me, I stepped back and reached behind my back, gripping the gun handle. I simultaneously noticed the other guy was watching us from about 150 feet downstream still at the top of the bank. My wife continued to fish totally unwitting of what was going on above her (the river was running wild and she was having great fun).

With my hand on the grip, finger on the trigger, gun still behind my back, my shaky voice became authoritative and calm. I recall saying, "Just stop, turn around, and go away -- now!" The guy looked me in the eye, noted my right hand was behind my back, and thankfully decided to go his way. His friend joined up with him on the trail and they appeared to be discussing the event before going on their way.

I had no doubt in my mind that they were stalking my wife with ill intent. I don't know whether I would have been able to chase them way or fight them off if I did not have a handgun. I will never go into the wilderness with my wife (or kids) without a handgun. However, I usually choose to leave it at home when we're in the travel trailer, and I don't bother taking it with me on MC trips (I ride solo) because I worry about the gun getting stolen or used against me.

THE WHOLE POINT OF THIS POST IS TO SAY BAD THINGS CAN AND DO HAPPEN. HOWEVER, YOU HAVE TO DECIDE WHETHER IT'S WORTH CARRYING A WEAPON FOR A GIVEN TRIP.

[deputy5211]

I agree with RDWALKER, I've never needed a gun and though I've been pistol whipped with one (from behind) alot of good my packing would have done. I still have that guy's gun btw, poor bastard. Guns are for cowards imho, and that includes law enforcement :histerica

Oh here it comes, let me have it :rotf:

Not worth it. :histerica

But what would be worth it is for you to fill in your profile so we have some idea about you and can properly welcome you aboard.

[STARFIGHTER]

while hiking along the border in Arizona, Karen and I were told by a LEO "it would be best to carry your sidearm."

[dlbushey]

http://www.ccrkba.org/reciprocity.html
And in the states where your CPL isn't reciprocal,

TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 44 > § 926A

§ 926A. Interstate transportation of firearms

Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console.

The only problem is that some local LEO's don't know the federal law...similar to motorcycles in HOV lanes.....

Good luck and have a safe trip.

[cfell]

"An armed citizenry is a POLITE citizenry."

Our great LEO's can't be "everywhere". Use of a firearm in personal defense is actually being courageous. Not only do you have to fight the bad guys, you also have to fight the "process"...

The whole point is that it is a "last resort". I would not pull a weapon (if I am carrying) for traffic stupidity. It's hard to write down a license number....

[KYchris02]

I asked the "carry across state line" question to a few KY state troopers years ago and they said 3 things.

1.) just about every state has a different law
2.) keep the gun and ammo seperated in your packing
3.) when/if pulled over, immediately inform the LEO of your weapon.

[Clem]

I carry a Kel-Tec 380 which will fit in the compartment where the cassette player is located. The law states that even if the state law does not allow you to carry a handgun, you may carry a weapon through the state as long as your destination is not that same state. Does that make sense? So even if Kansas does not allow you to carry a weapon in your vehicle but your destination is Oklahoma you can drive through Kansas with your weapon.

[kdog]

I carry a Kel-Tec 380 which will fit in the compartment where the cassette player is located. The law states that even if the state law does not allow you to carry a handgun, you may carry a weapon through the state as long as your destination is not that same state. Does that make sense? So even if Kansas does not allow you to carry a weapon in your vehicle but your destination is Oklahoma you can drive through Kansas with your weapon.

By carrying the gun in the glove box or passenger compartment, you're in violation of the federal law of which you speak. You might want to read and understand Dave B's post where he pasted the actual text of that law, before you end up in jail.

Link: http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=168092#post168092

Regards,
-joel

[RonKMiller]

Guns do take away a just a bit ;) of the carefree nature of motorcycling and introduce an element of bad karma...

(J frame stainless with hollow points for moi :p )

If you are uncomfortable with a hand gun take industrial quality pepper spray or a telescopic baton:

1. Easy to carry in your pocket and no permit required.
2. Non lethal.
3. Probably legal in all states?
4. Gives you plenty of time to tuck tail and run.
5. When used they are generally considered to be defensive weapons.
5. Pepper spray not much good in wind.... :think:

A couple of observations about travel in the Desert Southwest:

I would be a lot more concerned about hitting a coyote than being eaten by one. Bears - and yes there are plenty of them in and next to mountainous areas - can be a problem. Moms foraging with cubs need to be given a WIDE bearth. Once in a while they will even wander down to the desert floor and urban neighborhoods especially during times of drought like we are currently experiencing. Biggest wildlife threat - stepping on a Scorpion! Will get your undivided attention. :rotf:

Close to the border (within several miles and especially in remote areas) you need to be on yellow alert. 99% of border crossers are looking for a better life here in the land of plenty hoping to pick some produce that ends up on your table. They earn ten times what they can earn in a day down south, and who can blame them.

Don't even THINK of crossing into Canada or Mexico with a hand gun. (rifles and shotguns are OK as long as they are documented and declared) There is a well known true story of a guy from Tucson who went into Mexico without his hand gun but unfortunately had a SINGLE UNDECLARED BULLET in his truck - he got to spend two years in the slammer before they let him go. I doubt if the Canadians would keep you that long, but the minimum fine is $10K and a LOT of lawyer expenses on top of it! :eek:

[Clem]

By carrying the gun in the glove box or passenger compartment, you're in violation of the federal law of which you speak. You might want to read and understand Dave B's post where he pasted the actual text of that law, before you end up in jail.

Link: http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=168092#post168092

Regards,
-joel

Sorry, should have clarified. I carry the weapon in the glove box while in AZ with a CCW. I would not carry the weapon there when out of state unless they reciprocate our CCW.

[rjhammetter]

Going out west from OH may send you through WI. Not sure if IL is the same as us. Here are some things (most of these I know from deer and turkey hunting):
-Once you cross the border, your gun must be unloaded, in a case, with the cartridge out, and the ammo in a separate side- or top-case.
-Your case must be in the trunk or saddlebag, out of reach and sight. The CD case in front probably wouldn't fly. In a car, the trunk is the only acceptable place. In a truck, I think it has to be in the bed. I definitely wouldn't try a tank top bag.
-There are special circumstances for ATVs, dirt bikes, and snowmobiles, especially during hunting season, which require a locking hard-side gun case mounted to the vehicle. Again, must be unloaded, separate from ammo. This may apply if you mount a rack to your bike (obviously, a hand gun wouldn't require this).

Honestly, I can't believe 47 states or however many allow vigilante justice. Next time I daydream about riding to Cali and back, I should consider staying in my state. :p I'm a little surprise by the forums' experience with carrying weapons while riding/traveling! Unfathomable!! ;)

Perhaps your state Gov'ts should invest more in the bumper stickers our state offers "WISCONSIN: YOU'RE AMONG FRIENDS", not concealed carry. "OHIO: DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT ROBBING US: WE MAY BE ARMED" :histerica

I guess it's called the wild west for a reason :rolleyes: Seriously though, wallets can be replaced. Credit cards canceled. Don't carry too much cash. I'd rather give it to them and call the authorities than pull out a gun. What're you gonna do, shoot a guy over $100?

[RonKMiller]

I guess it's called the wild west for a reason Seriously though, wallets can be replaced. Credit cards canceled. Don't carry too much cash. I'd rather give it to them and call the authorities than pull out a gun. What're you gonna do, shoot a guy over $100?

Hey this IS the wild west, where men are men and the sheep are nervous.

Believe it or not it is not unusual to see someone wearing a holstered sidearm in plain view, and just yesterday I held up a guy, but only got $50.00 and slab of Cheddar! Cheapskate.... he had Wisconsin plates.

I shot him anyway just for grins.

[messenger13]

Dave,

Take your bike, your clothes, your S.O., and a BIG Visa card. But leave the gun at home...where it belongs.

[pickerbiker]

On the list of all things that can happen during an extended bike trip, I would think "need a gun" would have to be somewhere around #768, just before "alien attack" and just after "honey, did you remember to pack my piano"?

[Clem]

I guess it's called the wild west for a reason :rolleyes: Seriously though, wallets can be replaced. Credit cards canceled. Don't carry too much cash. I'd rather give it to them and call the authorities than pull out a gun. What're you gonna do, shoot a guy over $100?[/QUOTE]

No, I'll shoot a guy for robbing me. If a man will steal a $100 he will steal $10,000 if he can. It's not the money it's the principal. “Trespassers will be violated” Most statistics I have see say that in states where a CCW is available the violent crimes go down. I do not put these people in these predicaments. It's like saying "he started it when he hit me back". They put themselves in this situation, not me. I guess I do not understand passive people.

I once had a lady ask me if I would shoot her 18 year old son if he broke into my house. I replied "not only will I shoot him, but I'll kill him. Maybe you should teach your son not to break into anyone's house". It's the Criminals who are putting them selves in this position. Not the law abiding gun carriers.

[STARFIGHTER]

I don't think robbery is the problem.
Along our borders, illegals sometimes also carry drugs to make a buck...
A drug mule wouldn't think twice about shooting at you....
My piece will always travel w/ me

[dlbushey]

The whole point is that it is a "last resort". I would not pull a weapon (if I am carrying) for traffic stupidity. It's hard to write down a license number....

Exactly right.

When I qualified as Nuke Weps Security Guard in the Navy, we had to memorize the definition of Deadly Force. Part of that definition is

"...it's use is justified ONLY as a means of last resort when ALL OTHER LESSER means have FAILED or cannot reasonably be employed and only under one or more of the following conditions: Protection of your own life, Protection of another's life." (there are other conditions in there that pertain to protection of Nuclear Weapons and something about the orders of competent authority, but I can't see that being an issue on a motorcycle trip.)

Remember, just because someone has a permit to carry a weapon, doesn't mean that they get to use it whenever they want to. It's use has to be justified, and the only justification is the protection of a life as a last resort.

With the direction that this thread has taken (no help from me, either) Maybe it should be moved out of the LT forum.

[Florian]

Exactly right.

When I qualified as Nuke Weps Security Guard in the Navy, we had to memorize the definition of Deadly Force. Part of that definition is

"...it's use is justified ONLY as a means of last resort when ALL OTHER LESSER means have FAILED or cannot reasonably be employed and only under one or more of the following conditions: Protection of your own life, Protection of another's life." (there are other conditions in there that pertain to protection of Nuclear Weapons and something about the orders of competent authority, but I can't see that being an issue on a motorcycle trip.)

Remember, just because someone has a permit to carry a weapon, doesn't mean that they get to use it whenever they want to. It's use has to be justified, and the only justification is the protection of a life as a last resort.

With the direction that this thread has taken (no help from me, either) Maybe it should be moved out of the LT forum.

I understand completely about the fact that just because I have a license doesnt mean I get to use it willy-nilly. I NEVER plan on using it, its the weird things that crop up that may determine its usage.... I do like Mr. Miller's suggestion of pepper spray or bear repellant as a means of protection and will likely follow that route as there is a lot less assache involved if ever used for protection. Remember, its protection....last ditch efforts. Id likely give up my wallet, cards, phone, whatever....but Id lay it on the line to protect my gal...and of course, myself.


F

[rixchard]

News flash! this is 2007 not 1807 Most of the injuns, cattle rustlers, and stage coach robbers have gone to the the great Ok corral in the sky.

[kdog]

Sorry, should have clarified. I carry the weapon in the glove box while in AZ with a CCW. I would not carry the weapon there when out of state unless they reciprocate our CCW.

Ah, got it. I didn't realize with the CCW you can carry it in the glove box in state? Very interesting.

I'm thinking of getting a CCW. It's easy to do in AZ, so why not? I don't think a lot of folks realize how big and desolate most of the southwest is. I've got this defect about me concerning dirt roads. When I see one, I just gotta find out where it goes. I've been five miles out in the desert before and come across another vehicle coming towards me. I know I'm out there because I'm a little nuts. But what's the other guy doing out there? No cell phone coverage... it's worrisome. I can see where packing some heat makes it a little more difficult for bad people to prey on you.

There was a discussion in the local Kingman newspaper where one local was quoted as saying "your life aint worth a plugged nickel without a gun in some parts of Kingman". An exaggeration? Dunno. But if there are places like that out here, I don't want to find out the hard way.

Clem, where in AZ are you?

Cheers,
-joel

[kdog]

News flash! this is 2007 not 1807 Most of the injuns, cattle rustlers, and stage coach robbers have gone to the the great Ok corral in the sky.

Hey Richard. Gimmee a holler next time you're passing through Kingman. We'll take a little ride out into the desert and see if that theory of yours holds up. ;)

-joel (From Kingman, meth capital of the country)

[Offwego]

The way I see it, we need to carry a handgun to the BMW shop more than on the road. You have a better chance of being robbed by the dealer, than anyone on the highway. I got a quote from my local dealer for a 12k complete service of "about $900 for labor and between $1500 and $2000 out the door, parts and labor" Seem like a lot for a bike that is worth $10K (it's a 2000 LTC) I don't mind supporting my dealer, but I don't want to adopt him. I'll just ride it 'till it drops and sell the leftovers on EBay!

[Offwego]

....and my tires and brake pads were just done...

[Clem]

News flash! this is 2007 not 1807 Most of the injuns, cattle rustlers, and stage coach robbers have gone to the the great Ok corral in the sky.

Yes but the gang bangers and crack fiends are with us now.

[Clem]

[QUOTE=kdog]Ah, got it. I didn't realize with the CCW you can carry it in the glove box in state? Very interesting.

Of course you can, that is what a CCW is for. I usually will carry on an ankle holster or pocket holster. I'm from Tucson and extensively trained in the use of hand guns. Never shot no body that didn't need shootin. (my southern side)

[tomandmelanie]

http://www.nraila.org/gunlaws/#?st=CA

Take a look at the information posted state by state by the NRA in the site listed above. Massachusetts has a mandatory minimum of 1 year in jail for anyone found carrying a handgun loaded or unloaded last time I checked. New York City has separate more restrictive gun laws than New York State. All National Parks have regulations that forbid the carrying of firearms (not the transportation). I would be sure to review each state you intend on passing through very carefully as well as National Park regulations.

[grifscoots]

I once had a lady ask me if I would shoot her 18 year old son if he broke into my house. I replied "not only will I shoot him, but I'll kill him. Maybe you should teach your son not to break into anyone's house". It's the Criminals who are putting them selves in this position. Not the law abiding gun carriers.

You see it on the news at least weekly around here. A grieving momma who's son had the wind let out of him whilst performing some type of armed robbery/house invasion. The mother is usually wailing about how her son didn't have to be killed, true, he might of had a gun, but didn't deserve to die. Give me a break.

[kdog]

http://www.nraila.org/gunlaws/#?st=CA

Take a look at the information posted state by state by the NRA in the site listed above. Massachusetts has a mandatory minimum of 1 year in jail for anyone found carrying a handgun loaded or unloaded last time I checked.

Um, not to get overly technical, but that's for carrying UNLICENSED. Says so, right in that link you thoughtfully provided (click on MA).

Cheers,
-joel

[Zotter]

Many (here in the US at least) consider being a citizen as having responsibilities. Special out here in BFE, being responsible for your self is the only way to live. Seems like some places try to make it the other way around. Being a citizen means the 'state' is responsible for you. I've enjoyed visiting some of those places. Interesting.

That said, you have to know your environment, know what the risks are around you. Anticipate them. Plan for them. Make them the least of your concerns so you can enjoy your life, your trip.

Are you going to do some enjoyment that may well expose you to risks? Gear up for 'em. No way would I climb rock with out a proper belay. Don't like kayaking with out a PFD either. Most of us wear brain buckets when ride'n right? Appropriate tools for the job.

If you're going to be in a place where 2 legged dogs have been known to attack their own kind - plan for it. You going to be hang'n out in 4 star hotels and nice towns on your trip? Chances are in your favor of not meeting up with such ner-do-wells. Have a good time.

You going 'hobo' and expect to be rub'n shoulders with those that may be doing some 'sneaky' things? Uh huh - ok. Be ready. Some of my favorite times were 'hobo'. If that's not your thing, plan a different trip. Control those risks, one way or another.

But for anyone, anywhere to try and tell someone how to live their life. That right there is one good reason in my book to pick up arms and rebel. If you don't want to carry - cool. Go for it. You're accountable for your choices just as anyone who chooses to carry is. Just don't try to make a judgment call on someone else when you're not there. Or if you must - keep it to yourself. Just because you don't understand the 'whys' - don't mean valid reasons do not exist - for either choice.

[DaveDragon]

http://www.usconcealedcarry.com/public/363.cfm

This page shows Florida's Reciprocity agreements.

[Clem]

http://www.nraila.org/gunlaws/#?st=CA

Take a look at the information posted state by state by the NRA in the site listed above. Massachusetts has a mandatory minimum of 1 year in jail for anyone found carrying a handgun loaded or unloaded last time I checked. New York City has separate more restrictive gun laws than New York State. All National Parks have regulations that forbid the carrying of firearms (not the transportation). I would be sure to review each state you intend on passing through very carefully as well as National Park regulations.

This is true but Federal law supercedes state law. Federal law says you can transport a weapon in a vehicle if the destination is a state that does not forbid the carry of weapons in a vehicle. You are not authorized to carry a weapon in a national park Unless your destination is not the park and you are simply driving through.

[Clem]

You see it on the news at least weekly around here. A grieving momma who's son had the wind let out of him whilst performing some type of armed robbery/house invasion. The mother is usually wailing about how her son didn't have to be killed, true, he might of had a gun, but didn't deserve to die. Give me a break.

Well said. I do everything I can not to shoot someone. Live in a gated community, have a top of the line alarm/security system (with signs stating so) but if you break into my house I have two rules

1. Trespassers will be violated
2. Survivors will be shot again.

[Caper11]

One thing about carrying hand guns is that if you are going to carry one be prepared to use. One has to be careful because if you do turn up shooting someone you can very well turn up being the criminal. In Canada it is illegal to carry a hand gun unless you have a special permit. If you plan on crossing the border to Canada best leave you gun at home or declare it before you cross. Customs will hold it for you until you enter back into the US. Thats my two cents worth. :D

[grifscoots]

Customs will hold it for you until you enter back into the US.

Now that's downright awesome. I promise you that the Mexican Border guard's wouldn't.

[Daman858]

I agree with RDWALKER, I've never needed a gun and though I've been pistol whipped with one (from behind) alot of good my packing would have done. I still have that guy's gun btw, poor bastard. Guns are for cowards imho, and that includes law enforcement :histerica

Oh here it comes, let me have it :rotf:

Just write down your comments and send them to the families of the five law enforcement officers that were shot to death on the east coast in the last 10 days.

Between Washington DC, Baltimore and Philadelphia there are 130 miles and over 210 murders so far this year. I think I'll keep on Glockin' !!

[JCarver]

It has been stated, "I guess it's called the wild west for a reason :rolleyes: Seriously though, wallets can be replaced. Credit cards canceled. Don't carry too much cash. I'd rather give it to them and call the authorities than pull out a gun. What're you gonna do, shoot a guy over $100?"

The reality of this is that this is 2007 and people have been shot for less than $100.00. So call it the Wild West or whatever you care, but your chances of getting into a situation are greater than you think. I never in my life thought I'd have a drive-by shooting in front of my home, but I did experience two of them. I never thought I'd have a .45 stuck in my face just for turning around, but that did happen. Was I carrying in any of these instances, no. But after the last drive-by shooting I flagged down the city police with a 9mm in my hand.

Now my personal thoughts on the carry item. I do have a CCW, but only on one instance have I used it. Like it has been stated prior, you have to analyze and estimate the situation that you might encounter and prepare accordingly. I tend to somewhat agree with that statement that "it is just another item that you have to babysit" if you take it with you. Even saying that I know there are times when I will have it with me and that is not so much for the travel, but when I stop overnight.

As for alternatives, I do also carry pepper spray, but have one more item that has not been mentioned. What are the thoughts of the taser? Taser's come in two styles, those that you have to press against a person and those that propel darts into the person. What are the thoughts on those?

tcars
John

[SilverBuffalo]

Gun debates rarely change anyone's thinking,
The anti-gun persuasion rarely knows anything about guns
and is even less willing to learn, their opinion is the only one that matters.

Whether you carry or not is a personal desicion and responsibility,
from a legal perspective I highly reccommend you take the time to know the laws,
as they can vary from place to place.

The very last thing anybody will know is whether or not I have a gun,
it simply none of your business.

I will share an experience that I had,
my Harley broke down (broken primary drive belt)

I had a spare in the saddlebag and the tools to fix it but it's still an hours work.

With my lady watching I was on my hands and knees working on the bike,
(we were out in the middle of nowhere)

An old pickup went by, then came back a few minutes later,
three scruffy looking inbreds got out looking us over,

I knew immediately (gut feeling) they were not the friendly type.

A few words were spoken and one of them started pawing my girl
while the other two came around behind me,

I had the lid of the saddle bags, reached in and pulled my gun,
stood up and told them to leave, now, they did.

Don't know how it would have turned out if I wasn't armed,
good chance I wouldn't be telling the story.

So for the guy that claims all gun owners are cowards,
I say anyone who doesn't protect his own, is less than that.

[Lonewuff]

I agree with RDWALKER, I've never needed a gun and though I've been pistol whipped with one (from behind) alot of good my packing would have done. I still have that guy's gun btw, poor bastard. Guns are for cowards imho, and that includes law enforcement :histerica

Oh here it comes, let me have it :rotf:

Wow all the way up to your third post and starting already?

I don't think "Coward" is a term any of us LEO's on this list have ever been accused of, by another going through a door with us, but you are intitled to your own ridiculous opinion.

As far as the question of carry, I have read some good advise and some very bad (translation: Illegal) advise on this thread. Don't carry a telescopic baton in Texas and a handful of other states, and don't carry Pepper spray in a half dozen New England states, or you will go to jail. My philosophy is "Better tried by 12 of my peers than carried by six of my closest friends" however, in Motor School they told us about shooting from the bike while it is moving. Then they showed us 20 scenarios of which 19 turned out very badly for the officer on the scoot. Never never never shoot at another vehicle from your moving scoot....EVER!!! You want to carry on your trip, be a responsible adult and do what you think is best for you. Key word "Responsible."


Coward? Jeez :rolleyes:

[kdog]

A few words were spoken and one of them started pawing my girl
while the other two came around behind me,

I had the lid of the saddle bags, reached in and pulled my gun,
stood up and told them to leave, now, they did.
So what's the next step if the guy didn't stop pawing your girl? Shoot him? What about the other two witnesses who would claim "bubba weren't doing shit" when you shot him for no good reason. Shoot them too?

Yours and JGBurns situations were so cut and dry with happy endings. It just seems to me that things can get real messy in a hurry once the gun comes out.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, mind you. Just genuinely curious if folks who pack have thought through all these cases.

-joel

[UncleRock]

Your right to carry is called the 2nd ammendment to the constitution.
Anything else is a bullshit form of tax and control.
Rock

[cfell]

So what's the next step if the guy didn't stop pawing your girl? Shoot him? ,,,,,
-joel

Well, Joel, it's like this... you can't describe "pornography" to someone, but when you see it, you'll know it.

This may seem a bit "off-topic" but read this http://www.kdhnews.com/news/story.aspx?mode=id&id=12299 ... It was here my family lost a dear friend on Oct. 16, 1991. On that day our friend, a local chiropractor and her friend rode to Killeen for lunch and to visit the HD dealership. I'll save you the details.

Bottom line... innocent lives were lost and many changed forever by a man who decided a place was an easy mark...

[patrick2000]

Your right to carry is called the 2nd ammendment to the constitution.
Anything else is a bullshit form of tax and control.
Rock

Rock,

Does this imply that petitioning the government for citizen a right already granted in the 2nd amendment is (in and of itself) unconstitutional?

[UncleRock]

Rock,

Does this imply that petitioning the government for citizen a right already granted in the 2nd amendment is (in and of itself) unconstitutional?
Yes that is correct
Rock

[lfclark]

Obviously you have never been sent to a strange house at 3 in the morning and had the occupants start shooting at you before you got out of your car!
My response had nothing to do with being a coward!
L Clark, Retired Sgt. Michigan State Police

[patrick2000]

Yes that is correct
Rock

If it is correct then all citizens have a right carry regardless of state laws. I'm not sure it would hold up in court , but your interpretation seems logical.

[hschisler]

... Don't carry a telescopic baton in Texas and a handful of other states, and don't carry Pepper spray in a half dozen New England states, or you will go to jail...Since you bring it up: obviously you know that these 2 things are illegal. I didn't know that.

I'm curious as to why they are illegal. Lots less likely to be deadly than a firearm, and should be seen more as a defensive weapon.

[Bobnoxous]

Does this imply that petitioning the government for citizen a right already granted in the 2nd amendment is (in and of itself) unconstitutional?

If "the sheeple" actually defended the constitution instead of abdicating to the government responsibilities that are their own, there'd be no need to petition. After all, you would be partitioning the corrupt to stop breaking the law and abide by the constitution, right?

People on juries can refuse to enforce laws that are unconstitutional, or even that they just disagree with. That's called "jury nullification", and if you ever want out of jury duty, just utter that phrase. The judicial system doesn't want people to know they can legally change the law by refusing to enforce bad or unconstitutional ones. This is one of the reasons alcohol prohibition was repealed.

Of course, if you just acted on your constitutional right, you have to be willing to get arrested and locked up, hoping the LEOs that enforce this stay within the law and ethics (protesters and demonstrators often find this not to be the case), and a jury does what's right, not what the judge tells them to do.

I can see why people take the petition route. The government is a very powerful thug. This is why I've recently decided to go to law school. Maybe I can help make things better.

Meanwhile, I'm still not sure what protection I should take while riding across the country. Sigh.

[Lonewuff]

Howard,

In Texas it is illegal to carry any kind of baton, however you can carry a long gun in your truck every where you go, don't ask me why that is the law, it just is. :)


TITLE 10. OFFENSES AGAINST PUBLIC HEALTH,SAFETY, AND MORALS

CHAPTER 46. WEAPONS


§ 46.01. DEFINITIONS. In this chapter:
(1) "Club" means an instrument that is specially
designed, made, or adapted for the purpose of inflicting serious
bodily injury or death by striking a person with the instrument, and
includes but is not limited to the following:
(A) blackjack;
(B) nightstick;
(C) mace;
(D) tomahawk.

(FYI: The word mace above means a ball on a chain like Knights used, not the chemical kind.)

In Massachusetts you have to go to a class and get a permit to carry any kind of chemical mace, pepper spray, or carry a stun gun...forget carrying a firearm!!!

[grifscoots]

Meanwhile, I'm still not sure what protection I should take while riding across the country. Sigh.

Let me help you out: I hear the small body (I believe it's the 23) Glock S&W .40, loaded with Corbin's fits right nice in the dash of the LT if you remove the flashlight holder. The .40 is a helluva round, though you can never go wrong with a .45 (I loves my Kimber). With a tank bag over the box, the uninitiated don't know to look there. Easily locked and easy to get to.

[kdog]

remove the flashlight holder
ARE YOU NUTS!!! :eek:



(Although I might consider it for H&K USP Compact .40. Hmmm...)

[Lonewuff]

ARE YOU NUTS!!! :eek:



No, but he's a carrier. :histerica

[jgburns]

So what's the next step if the guy didn't stop pawing your girl? Shoot him? What about the other two witnesses who would claim "bubba weren't doing shit" when you shot him for no good reason. Shoot them too?

Yours and JGBurns situations were so cut and dry with happy endings. It just seems to me that things can get real messy in a hurry once the gun comes out.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, mind you. Just genuinely curious if folks who pack have thought through all these cases.

-joelI didn't have to show my gun, but if I had to choose between my wife's well being and a drifter's life, there would have been no pause. Yes, I've thought through the consequence of shooting an assailant. I'm also aware that showing a gun can escalate a bad situation.

[RonKMiller]

Wow all the way up to your third post and starting already?

I don't think "Coward" is a term any of us LEO's on this list have ever been accused of, by another going through a door with us, but you are intitled to your own ridiculous opinion.

As far as the question of carry, I have read some good advise and some very bad (translation: Illegal) advise on this thread. Don't carry a telescopic baton in Texas and a handful of other states, and don't carry Pepper spray in a half dozen New England states, or you will go to jail. My philosophy is "Better tried by 12 of my peers than carried by six of my closest friends" however, in Motor School they told us about shooting from the bike while it is moving. Then they showed us 20 scenarios of which 19 turned out very badly for the officer on the scoot. Never never never shoot at another vehicle from your moving scoot....EVER!!! You want to carry on your trip, be a responsible adult and do what you think is best for you. Key word "Responsible."


Coward? Jeez :rolleyes:

I have been edumecated regarding the national legality of batons and pepper spray and thank you for you input... much appreciated. :)

You might also note that I had a question mark after my comments to whether or not it was legal in all states? I simply did not know. Now I do.

I thought that there might be an alternative to less force than resorting to a firearm to dissuade a bad guy whilst riding a motorsickle.

I'm stickin' with my heater. Thank you berry much. ;)

[kdog]

I didn't have to show my gun, but if I had to choose between my wife's well being and a drifter's life, there would have been no pause. Yes, I've thought through the consequence of shooting an assailant. I'm also aware the showing a gun can escalate a bad situation.

Interesting topic. I wonder if there's much written on strategies in dealing with situations like these. Like when to show your weapon, dealing with multiple bad guys, etc. I'd be interested in that. That kind of knowledge would be just as important as the tool, really.

Regards,
-joel

[mirage]

May I suggest an additional source of Information.

www.packing.org (http://www.packing.org)

IMHO the most up to date source of information on firearms laws pertaining to carrying.

This is the site we recommend to our students.

Mirage

[dive200_2]

Carry Your Weapon --yes ----think Fast , Be Smart. Avoid The Situation If At All Possible -- If You Pull The Trigger You Are Resonsible Till The Bullet Stops-----always

[jgburns]

Interesting topic. I wonder if there's much written on strategies in dealing with situations like these. Like when to show your weapon, dealing with multiple bad guys, etc. I'd be interested in that. That kind of knowledge would be just as important as the tool, really.

Regards,
-joelJoel, My philosophy is to only show a weapon when ready to shoot! And, only be ready to shoot when words fail to influence. "That's all I have to say about that." :o :rolleyes: :histerica Maybe LOE or former LOE have more to say? :think:

[jgburns]

Carry Your Weapon --yes ----think Fast , Be Smart. Avoid The Situation If At All Possible -- If You Pull The Trigger You Are Resonsible Till The Bullet Stops-----alwaysHeavy man, heavy. ...that's why I leave my gun in the safe most of the time.

[jgburns]

Florian,
... just kidding - hopefully this helps you sort out what is right for you! Keep the shiny side up, and best wished for good judgment. Enjoy your ride west. :dance:
NOTE: Madrid is not a town overrun by bad-ass Harley riders as depicted in Wild Hogs. However, I wonder whether if any of the shop workers are not under the influence of cannabis.
Fellas,

Im planning a long journey this summer with the sig. other on my LT. It will be the first major (10-14) day road journey we have taken and it will include some desolate roads out West. Question is, what do people carry for personal protection while travelling? I do own handguns and am licenced for Concealed Carry here in OH, but is it smart (legal or not) to carry a weapon while travelling>?
Id love to hear what you have done on your own journeys....


F

[UncleRock]

Let me help you out: I hear the small body (I believe it's the 23) Glock S&W .40, loaded with Corbin's fits right nice in the dash of the LT if you remove the flashlight holder. The .40 is a helluva round, though you can never go wrong with a .45 (I loves my Kimber). With a tank bag over the box, the uninitiated don't know to look there. Easily locked and easy to get to.
Never pull a weapon until your ready to shoot. When you shoot, always shoot to kill.
I like the 410/45 Deringer as a warm up before it escalates into the twin 1911's.
Thats right Soldier Of Fortune"s top close combat handgun of all time, with a whopping 89% fatality rating. :thumb: It is always easier to win in court if they only have to listen to your side of the story. :D Much less confusing for them :cool:
Rock

[UncleRock]

Howard,

In Texas it is illegal to carry any kind of baton, however you can carry a long gun in your truck every where you go, don't ask me why that is the law, it just is. :)


TITLE 10. OFFENSES AGAINST PUBLIC HEALTH,SAFETY, AND MORALS

CHAPTER 46. WEAPONS


§ 46.01. DEFINITIONS. In this chapter:
(1) "Club" means an instrument that is specially
designed, made, or adapted for the purpose of inflicting serious
bodily injury or death by striking a person with the instrument, and
includes but is not limited to the following:
(A) blackjack;
(B) nightstick;
(C) mace;
(D) tomahawk.

(FYI: The word mace above means a ball on a chain like Knights used, not the chemical kind.)

In Massachusetts you have to go to a class and get a permit to carry any kind of chemical mace, pepper spray, or carry a stun gun...forget carrying a firearm!!!
A Mace is not a ball and chain, that is a flail, if it has spikes it is a Morning star, A Mace is a stick with flutes metal ridges that run parallel to the shaft of the handle.
Rock
(Midevel weapons, I'm a colletor, they're worth twice as much if the killed somebody---from Duece Bigalow)

[Florian]

Never pull a weapon until your ready to shoot. When you shoot, always shoot to kill.
I like the 410/45 Deringer as a warm up before it escalates into the twin 1911's.
Thats right Soldier Of Fortune"s top close combat handgun of all time, with a whopping 89% fatality rating. :thumb: It is always easier to win in court if they only have to listen to your side of the story. :D Much less confusing for them :cool:
Rock

I plan on carrying my Navy issue 1911 on the trek, as Im most familiar with it.


F

[Lonewuff]

Okay I will take up the LEO voice of reason here:

Florian, you are right to carry what you are most familiar with...always!!! In a stress situation your brain is going to respond to training rather than thought. If you have to fumble around for a safety, or some other function of a weapon you are not well trained with, you will fail. A lot of cops carry their duty weapon off duty for this reason. I always carried a smaller version of my Colt Govt. off duty, with all the same tricks and dudads so everything worked by reaction and to this day I still carry a small .45 set up the same as my duty weapons. The one piece of advise I always give to any one thinking of carrying a weapon is practice practice practice, so you are familiar with the weapon you choose to carry for the reasons mentioned above.

Ron, I did see your question mark, which is what prompted the response about carrying the club. I do agree with you about using things with a lower degree of bodily damage and don't quite understand why the Texas law says you can't carry a club (My job was to enforce it :cool: ), and I certainly don't understand not being able to carry pepper spray in certain states at all, but.... (Shamelss plug here: Sign up for my class at CCR and I will teach you how to use a key chain VERY effectively :D )

Rock, do you have a photo of what a REAL mace is? I would love to see what you are talking about, cause what I know about mid-evil weapons is what I got from the movies and I am SURE that is all factual :rolleyes: . For the legal definition in Texas they used the ball and chain as a catch all to cover things like chucks etc. By the legal standard it is any weapon that has two pieces connected by chain or rope etc.

To the question about scenarios of when to show your weapon...I almost hate to say this, but Rock said it best. :) You never draw your weapon (or even let it be know you have one) until it is time to start the shooting portion of the meeting. Any reasonable and prudent person will know when that time has come, with a moderate amount of training. If you draw your weapon only as a threat odds may go against you quickly that you will escalate the situation and be forced to shoot, where talking may have worked, or cause more harm to yourself, because the assailant might take advantage of your hesitation. When the time to draw your weapon comes you only need to hear a few commands in the back of your mind starting with "Ready on the right" :D Police officers are trained in how and when to use the weapon as a tool of intimidation as much as they are trained in how and when to shoot. The Boogie Man can see in my eyes while I am looking over the top of my .45 I WILL use it without hesitation. Can you be as convincing, or are you bluffing, cause he will see that as well.

Rock, to keep your ass out of hot water in civil court, use the phrase "I shot to STOP the attacker" not "Shot to KILL the attacker." Now we all know what the word stop means (Two in the pump and one in the brain pan), but for the civil side of things, your intent is to stop the attack not kill the attacker. ;)

Like Hans said, if you are against guns you are not going to see the side of the right to carry as anything positive, but there are several on this list that might be in a restaurant some day when a pickup comes crashing through the side of the building and a mad man emerges with two Glocks and starts picking off patrons one by one. When that happened in Waco several years ago, Texas was a state that only LEO and Military while on duty could carry weapons. Lucky for most of the patrons that survived there was a police conference going on next door. Today, I don't think that rampage and slaughter would last near as long, because the percentage of people with CHP's in Texas is about 25%. I am more comfortable setting in any large group of people knowing that one in four may be armed and the Boggie Man is a whole lot less comfortable because of it.

[kdog]

May I suggest an additional source of Information.
www.packing.org (http://www.packing.org)
IMHO the most up to date source of information on firearms laws pertaining to carrying.
This is the site we recommend to our students.
Mirage

Probably time top stop recommending that site as it's not there any more.
Funny, I had it bookmarked from a long time ago for future reading.

Regards,
-joel

[kdog]

Okay I will take up the LEO voice of reason here:
...
Great post, Jerry.

-joel

[SilverBuffalo]

So what's the next step if the guy didn't stop pawing your girl? Shoot him? What about the other two witnesses who would claim "bubba weren't doing shit" when you shot him for no good reason. Shoot them too?
-joel
Deadly force is justified (or allowed) to stop a "forcible felony"
Rape robbery and murder are "forcible felonies"

and I do believe that one or all of those crimes were about to be committed
against my lady and myself,
if I had been by myself I would have fought them, but it wasn't me I was concerned with.

Even though I am a 260 lb man with more than ten years of martial arts training,
I know my limitations and taking on three "deranged" men with evil intent would have turned out bad.

And although I never want to take a human life (or three) I would to protect my family.
With that said I'll recall your attention to the first part of my original post.

Gun debates rarely change anyone's thinking,
The anti-gun persuasion rarely knows anything about guns
and is even less willing to learn, their opinion is the only one that matters.
Should I have just let them have their way?
I don't think I could live with myself had that happened!
There are worse things in life than going to court and/or jail.

For what it's worth, I think I made myself very clear when I pointed my gun at his crotch.

[Morley]

A Mace is not a ball and chain, that is a flail, if it has spikes it is a Morning star, A Mace is a stick with flutes metal ridges that run parallel to the shaft of the handle.
Rock
(Midevel weapons, I'm a colletor, they're worth twice as much if the killed somebody---from Duece Bigalow)
Thank you...I was about to say somehting about their "generalization" of a mace.
In order the pics are a mace, flail and morningstar. Using any of those 3 from the back of a bike would be very interesting. All we'd be missing would be a jousting lance.

[midwilshire]

Since you bring it up: obviously you know that these 2 things are illegal. I didn't know that.

I'm curious as to why they are illegal. Lots less likely to be deadly than a firearm, and should be seen more as a defensive weapon.

They're illegal because the 2nd Amendment does not apply to them, so it's much easier to make laws prohibiting them. I think one can get into more legal trouble for possession of the baton than a handgun. That's stupid, really.

[midwilshire]

So what's the next step if the guy didn't stop pawing your girl? Shoot him? Yes. And let me take care of the witnesses in court.

[RaffyK]

BTW, I have heard that if you have a Maglight that takes more than 4 D cell batteries and you keep it in the passenger compartment, you can be arrested for having a club. Same with a baseball bat (better have a ball and glove with it).

[Zotter]

BTW, I have heard that if you have a Maglight that takes more than 4 D cell batteries and you keep it in the passenger compartment, you can be arrested for having a club. Same with a baseball bat (better have a ball and glove with it).

Raffy, I'd expect such 'tudes to be "state by state". I know plenty of oil field workers here in WY that run 'round with 4 or 5 cell mag lights. Never hear of any of 'em have'n probs cuz of it.

Now, meth, alcohol, trafficking, plain weekend stupidity - that we got plenty of.

[rixchard]

Dudes! Stop living life like you are under siege.

[grifscoots]

I like the 410/45 Deringer as a warm up before it escalates into the twin 1911's.


Thunder five (http://www.thunder5.com/docs1.html) baby!

[grifscoots]

Dudes! Stop living life like you are under siege.

No siege here, I just refuse to be a victim. I also believe that I'm a carnivore.

[gunny]

Many (here in the US at least) consider being a citizen as having responsibilities. Special out here in BFE, being responsible for your self is the only way to live. Seems like some places try to make it the other way around. Being a citizen means the 'state' is responsible for you. I've enjoyed visiting some of those places. Interesting.

That said, you have to know your environment, know what the risks are around you. Anticipate them. Plan for them. Make them the least of your concerns so you can enjoy your life, your trip.

Are you going to do some enjoyment that may well expose you to risks? Gear up for 'em. No way would I climb rock with out a proper belay. Don't like kayaking with out a PFD either. Most of us wear brain buckets when ride'n right? Appropriate tools for the job.

If you're going to be in a place where 2 legged dogs have been known to attack their own kind - plan for it. You going to be hang'n out in 4 star hotels and nice towns on your trip? Chances are in your favor of not meeting up with such ner-do-wells. Have a good time.

You going 'hobo' and expect to be rub'n shoulders with those that may be doing some 'sneaky' things? Uh huh - ok. Be ready. Some of my favorite times were 'hobo'. If that's not your thing, plan a different trip. Control those risks, one way or another.

But for anyone, anywhere to try and tell someone how to live their life. That right there is one good reason in my book to pick up arms and rebel. If you don't want to carry - cool. Go for it. You're accountable for your choices just as anyone who chooses to carry is. Just don't try to make a judgment call on someone else when you're not there. Or if you must - keep it to yourself. Just because you don't understand the 'whys' - don't mean valid reasons do not exist - for either choice.

Well done!

[jgburns]

Dudes! Stop living life like you are under siege.And, living in denial is better? ... we are under siege - you're just not watching enough Steven Seagal ;)

[hschisler]

They're illegal because the 2nd Amendment does not apply to them, so it's much easier to make laws prohibiting them. I think one can get into more legal trouble for possession of the baton than a handgun. That's stupid, really.I had no idea. I bought a baton (legally, over the counter) at a local gun shop. Seems to me a baton is a lot less lethal than a handgun, but it seems like it's something not to be carried on a bike or in a car.

[mikerd400]

For those that will carry when traveling, know the laws (transportation of firearms) of the states you will travel through.

If you carry for protection from the less desirable people out there, don't pull it out unless you know what you doing. Just like motorcycles, one needs to practice to be proficient. A combat shooting, and practicing for combat shootings, is way different than shooting for accurancy at a paper target. In a high stress incident, your senses (eyesight, hearing, coordination) will be screwed up, through the huge rush of andrenaline. If you haven't practiced for a combat shooting, chances are you will screw it up. My department has a shoot once a month. At least every other day, I practice.

When I'm off duty, I rarely carry. Being a single dad, I always have my kids, so I would have a hard time keeping my kids safe (finding them cover) and focusing on the suspects. So if something were to go sour, my number one goal is to find cover for my kids.

There is much more to pulling a gun out and shooting the bad guy. How many bad guys are there, have you practiced combat shootings, have you constantly run scenarios through your head. I'm not saying not to carry. I'm saying to constantly practice for a combat situation. Then carry it once you are proficient.

[UncleRock]

Thunder five (http://www.thunder5.com/docs1.html) baby!
Thats the I'm leaving now summer fun gun. 410 clears the path to the door, .45 for any one with questions.
Rock

[Clem]

For those that will carry when traveling, know the laws (transportation of firearms) of the states you will travel through.

If you carry for protection from the less desirable people out there, don't pull it out unless you know what you doing. Just like motorcycles, one needs to practice to be proficient. A combat shooting, and practicing for combat shootings, is way different than shooting for accurancy at a paper target. In a high stress incident, your senses (eyesight, hearing, coordination) will be screwed up, through the huge rush of andrenaline. If you haven't practiced for a combat shooting, chances are you will screw it up. My department has a shoot once a month. At least every other day, I practice.

When I'm off duty, I rarely carry. Being a single dad, I always have my kids, so I would have a hard time keeping my kids safe (finding them cover) and focusing on the suspects. So if something were to go sour, my number one goal is to find cover for my kids.

There is much more to pulling a gun out and shooting the bad guy. How many bad guys are there, have you practiced combat shootings, have you constantly run scenarios through your head. I'm not saying not to carry. I'm saying to constantly practice for a combat situation. Then carry it once you are proficient.


Brings out a good point. I have 20 years in the infantry (Marine Corps) and 14 months in diplomatic security in Iraq (hired gun) so I have quite a bit of trigger time but it is a skill you have to develope. When the world falls apart from together you have alot of different stressers when you pull the trigger. Having said that make sure you learn from someone who actually knows what they are doing, not a cowboy. Learn things like "wounded shooter reload" etc.
Just like knife fighting you had better be prepared to be cut/shot if you are in that situation. Get it into your mind before you pull your weapon.

[SilverBuffalo]

For those of y'all that can't or don't want to "carry",
here's something totally legal.

Black Flag wasp and hornet spray, available everywhere,
will spray a 15-20' stream of insect spray that will burn like hell and blind you for at least 10 minutes,
or long enough to get away,
I've got a can of it sitting by my front door.

Now if they've really "pissed you off", you could spray em and then shoot em.:rolleyes:

[gulfxray]

Now if they've really "pissed you off", you could spray em and then shoot em.:rolleyes:

Man Hans, never knew you had a mean streak...;)

[bwiley]

Well said Jerry. Here in MD we like to refer to it as "Shoot to Incapacitate." As a current LEO, I only carry because I can. Further, I don't want to be sitting in a restaurant when the disgruntled employee returns to vent his anger at law abiding folks by shooting them and I can't protect myself or others "FROM DEATH OR GRAVE INJURY" because my gun is home or in a glovebox. Make no mistake about it. After 24 yrs of law enforcement, I don't have any desire to look for trouble when I'm off. As for advice, if you are caught in Maryland with a loaded handgun and are not a LEO or have a MD Handgun Permit you are in violation of state law. There are some officers, trooper and/or deputies who would ask basic questions and could apply logic and reasonably deduce that you are on a journey and not a 1%er. Flip side...there are those who would still lock you up! It all comes down to common sense and who is applying the most at that moment. Good Luck!

[brianbeemer]

You guys need to ride around Europe. No need to carry, in fact it's illegal to even own a handgun in some countries. That doesn't stop the real bad guys, but guns are still rare, except for the police.

It makes interesting reading this topic, though, as it reinforces the European perceptions of the American stereotype - it's a dangerous place where people will shoot you as soon as look at you. Sure it's only 'some' people but which ones, and as a naive visitor you'd never know?

In my life the only guns I've even seen are my own .22 air rifle, a guy with an AK-47 in South Africa (and he was running away at the time), and in the US where just about everyone we know other than family has guns. One friend was bragging about his collection of 37 handguns and he kept every one of them loaded. I didn't ask him about the gun case with the rifles. Oh yes, my cousin also carried all the time, but he lived through the worst of the problems in Johannesburg for 20+ years - only to die of a gunshot 2 years ago...

I think I'll go back to the old 'rocker' habit of carrying a few decent sized ball bearings? Lob them over your shoulder if someone's sitting too close behind and watch them brake and swerve. A cup of coffee works well, too, but it's a shame to waste decent coffee :histerica

[grifscoots]

I think I'll go back to the old 'rocker' habit of carrying a few decent sized ball bearings? Lob them over your shoulder if someone's sitting too close behind and watch them brake and swerve. A cup of coffee works well, too, but it's a shame to waste decent coffee :histerica

I don't respond to stoopid human tricks in traffic. No hand signs, no yelling, I just get out of the way and be gone. When a guy laid a loogy in my face, while splitting traffic for the first time when visiting in California, I felt like killing him, but didn't even react, just kept moving. Now, if I fear desperately for my life while not in traffic.....

[KayGee]

... it's illegal to even own a handgun in some countries. That doesn't stop the real bad guys ...

When they outlaw guns, only the outlaws have guns.

[ldbikin]

I hear that Grif, I've only had to dodge cig butts and some well-placed mirros's so far, but in your case...mmm...might have to put those ceramic knuckles on my held gloves to good use, they do a number on sheetmetal and glass :D

I'd prefer peace for the entire planet...too bad that ain't ever gonna happen, especially here in the USA, the mixing pot. I've been in Europe plenty and love it, however, for the most part you are talking about homogeneous societies. Apples and banana's.

adios...geo

I don't respond to stoopid human tricks in traffic. No hand signs, no yelling, I just get out of the way and be gone. When a guy laid a loogy in my face, while splitting traffic for the first time when visiting in California, I felt like killing him, but didn't even react, just kept moving. Now, if I fear desperately for my life while not in traffic.....

[Lonewuff]

I lived in Europe for four years and carried a handgun every day, why...because I had to. Yeah the odds are considerably more in your favor over there, but we live here and the wild wild west ain't been tamed down just yet.

I have to say something about this: The idea of the ball bearings over the shoulder is a real bad idea. The problem is to do this you have to be in front of the driver you are trying to educate, the problem is you are still in front of that same driver after class is dismissed. I either pull over and let them by or drop a gear and disappear. Like Grif, if I'm on the scoot I avoid the problem, however once I'm off the scoot I can get real stupid. :cool:

[pieceofficer]

Don't even THINK of crossing into Canada or Mexico with a hand gun. (rifles and shotguns are OK as long as they are documented and declared):eek:


First off... I am in a different position, as I have a badge to go along with the CCW permit. Your vehicle is an Extension of your home, ALL STATES recognize this. Your weapon here in Colorado, NC, TX, and Illinois(only states I am sure of) allow you to carry a weapon under the "Extension of your Home" clause... HOWEVER(insert BIG COMMA here) the firearm canNOT be within "Immediate Grab" reach. If it has a magazine in it, or rounds in the cylinder...it is an "iffy" situation...officer discretion. If you have a round in the chamber, or in all positions of your cylinder...then again, officer discretion...but more likely of a citation.

As for carrying into Canada... EASY as pie....fill out the correct paperwork. I have done so in the past, and will be doing so again. The limitations on the barrel are 3.5" anything smaller is prohibited. .25 & .32 firearms are prohibited... You must declare your weapon, you must fill out the appropriate forms(2 copies) you must pay a fee, typically around 20.00 if I recall. You must also give the address of where you will be. Now in my case I will be driving through...and not actually finding a "destination per se" and they have been ok with it, and they ARE ok with it. So, if you are traveling NORTH and you are camping...I would include a sidearm in my list of essentials.

As for Mexico....HELL NO, GUNS DON'T GO!! The laws in the U.S. are so elaborate...for each State Revised Statute, you have sections, then sub-sections, then sub-sub sections that spell out the law and if someone brakes the law, you as the officer have to proof without a doubt that someone has violated the law as such that they meet each element of that crime. If not...it will not stick.
In Mexico...they have the law....no subsections...but in their law book it says "...Insert opinion and make up your own law...here" they are crooked. I used to go down to Juarez when I was stationed at KAFB in Albq. NM...I cannot tell you how many times I heard of Troops getting jammed up over stupid stuff.


Cowards are the ones hiding behind the cars....that go tell the media how the brave ones died!!

[pieceofficer]

As for alternatives, I do also carry pepper spray, but have one more item that has not been mentioned. What are the thoughts of the taser? Taser's come in two styles, those that you have to press against a person and those that propel darts into the person. What are the thoughts on those?tcarsJohn

Tasers by definition ALL have blast cartridges to shoot someone from a distance. If you deploy your darts and then the threat is still there you can do what is called a "Drive Stun" with the end of your taser directly onto the subject. You would ONLY need to do this if one or both of your darts missed, wire was broken...etc.. otherwise you pull the trigger again and give hime a few more seconds to think about his actions.

The second is just a Stun Gun...IMHO these are only for Intimidation. I carried a 500,000V stun gun on my belt for 2 yrs and only actually used it one time and it was not effective. In training we have it pressed against our chest, it is activated and continues to be activated for approximatly 5seconds as we are lowered to the floor. In the real World..>NEVER happens.

Go with the Taser X26c if you are not LE.. it is great, and once you shoot someone....call the police, a police report is filed....The wonderful folks at Taser send you a new one. As the idea is to Shoot the guy...drop the gun...and run. It will give you several seconds to get away. Don't worry about the 800.00 gun you just left laying on the asphalt... they will buy you a new one.

[brianbeemer]

When they outlaw guns, only the outlaws have guns.
True, but most of them then don't bother with guns as there's no need.

[brianbeemer]

I don't respond to stoopid human tricks in traffic. No hand signs, no yelling, I just get out of the way and be gone. When a guy laid a loogy in my face, while splitting traffic for the first time when visiting in California, I felt like killing him, but didn't even react, just kept moving. Now, if I fear desperately for my life while not in traffic.....
In all fairness I do too (note the hysteria smiley). The last time I hit 130 mph was when leaving a tailgater standing. Life's too short, and on a bike you're too vulnerable. It's also small enough to get through thick slow-moving traffic and away from the idiots. Biggest problem I had was a pax in a sports car eating peanuts and throwing the shells! I don't think she realised there was a bike behind, and I passed pretty quick.

I did see a biker once pass a car who'd just cut him up - he stuck his leg out and smashed the guy's mirror off before disappearing at high speed. F'ing dangerous trick, and I think he's lucky to still have that leg in one piece...

[pieceofficer]

Clem,
I am a LEEWT Instructor(Law Enforcement Edged Weapons Tactics) and I have been in 2 knife fights... both before I became an instructor...both before I carried my Cold Steel Voyager with a 5" 50/50 Blade Tanto and my Safekeeper II on my boot, and my Voyager 3" in my Vest Trauma Pocket just to the left of my G27 that is tucked nicely under my arm. Not to mention my Kimber on my other boot, and my duty weapon in clear view.

I am only prefacing this, because you are 100% correct....if you get in a boxing ring, you know you are going to get punched. If you get in a Knife fight you are going to get cut. My first knife fight, I was a rookie Deputy and I was cut by a 13yo girl on cocaine from my right side of my duty rig, up and to my left shoulder....through my shirt into my vest and only cutting my shoulder. (3stitches..not a biggie) but you bet your butt I bought a Stab resistant vest 2 days later. 2nd knife fight, I was off duty(I rarely carry, as I have my daughter with me and I do not want to feel "obligated" ..so I do not carry my badge, nor my ID if I don't have a weapon on me(department policy) Gas station...stop and rob situation..I was at the cooler suspect came in...robbed the store...I walked up behind thinking "I can take him" and I did...and I got stabbed between two fingers on my left hand(8stitches) and inside my left thigh(11 stitches) and had I been carrying...I would have shot him...and in hindsight...I would take another 19 stitches before taking a human life.

I am not against carrying....I support your right to own and carry...as long as the laws are followed. They are there for a reason.....keep in mind when the constitution was signed...we had rogue indians invading homes that were miles from the the next....etc. We had wild animals attacking children....etc.
So... we have to realize times have changed.....we have replaced rogue indians with Crack Heads, we hav replaced wild animals with meth addicts... there are so many variables that come into play..

SO as it has been stated... You are ultimately responsible for your actions.... live your life as you want to....just understand there are consequences for your actions. Me personally, I carry my sidearm ONLY when on duty, or going into a situation that could call for the need of my protection. And ALWAYS on my LT if I am going on a trip(never local).
MY GPS does not take me only through the "Good Parts" of cities.....

If you carry, carry responsibly...and I get the feeling by reading all of these posts...that regardless of indifferences...there is a lot of education, intelligence and with that comes responsibilty..

Be safe, all of you...if you carry...carry responsibly...if you do not carry...oh well...enjoy you trip all of you. As I always tell my fellow workers.... I am a Husband and Daddy First, Then I am a Police officer, then a citizen... at times...I forget and have put myself in some compromising situations... but each and everyone of us are Humans and deserve to speak our minds, feelings and emotions...respect one another!

[grifscoots]

Clem,
...and I get the feeling by reading all of these posts...that regardless of indifferences...there is a lot of education, intelligence and with that comes responsibilty..

And no one has uttered: "Kill them all and let God sort 'em out" or "God made man, Colt made him equal". Which prolly means that no alcohol has been involved in this thread. :rotf:

I have to say Bill, you impress me. There's a few others on this board that do, too. These youngsters that think they're soooo bad have yet to run into bad.

[pieceofficer]

These youngsters that think they're soooo bad have yet to run into bad.

Grif,
Keep in mind...I am also a youngster...not even 32 yet... but almost 10yrs as an LEO..
I have been in MANY compromising situations...I have been in Narcotics since 98 as K9, and now as a field narcotics officer for the Colorado Department of Criminal Justice...I have been involved in a gun fight, knife fight, hand-hand, etc... And almost every time I see an injured/killed officer a lot of the times in my experience it is the young officers...the rookies...20 something years of age.... I was an FTO for about 3yrs and enjoyed it...but the rooks didn't like me much...they would say "C'mon Sarge....let's see how fast this thing can go..." "C'mon Sarge...let's just run up on it...and surprise them..." Well..when I hear those words...all I can do is see myself in front of his wife and kids and informing them of the bad news... that Daddy will not be coming home.. and I have done that one time in my life...and it is something I will never do again if I can help it.

Some say I am 50 in a 30yr body.... if that is the case... so be it... but I have 5yo that loves this 50yo man to pieces!!

Thanks for the kind words Grif!

[Lonewuff]

Bill,

You coming to CCR? We have GOT to spend some time together!!! ;)

[JCabranes]

Seriously though, wallets can be replaced. Credit cards canceled. Don't carry too much cash. I'd rather give it to them and call the authorities than pull out a gun. What're you gonna do, shoot a guy over $100?

Problem is that others are perfectly willing to shoot you over $100. In addition, do you really want to depend on the mercy of someone who has pulled a weapon on you?

[JCabranes]

So what's the next step if the guy didn't stop pawing your girl? Shoot him? What about the other two witnesses who would claim "bubba weren't doing shit" when you shot him for no good reason. Shoot them too?

Yours and JGBurns situations were so cut and dry with happy endings. It just seems to me that things can get real messy in a hurry once the gun comes out.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, mind you. Just genuinely curious if folks who pack have thought through all these cases.

-joel

I think you missed the point. Pulling the gun in most cases stops the problem in its tracks... and sometimes you just have to shoot. As for the two witnesses, people who act in that way generally have a history of anti-social behavior so their credibility is going to be questionable. Regardless, BEFORE you tell your side of the story, after you shoot someone, you need to lawyer-up. There are numerous cases of people shooting others in what they honestly believed to be self-defense who get charged criminally. Don't cause a problem for yourself by saying something stupid during a time when your going to be under stress.

[Bobnoxous]

No need to carry, in fact it's illegal to even own a handgun in some countries.

I don't believe that Europe is such a nice place that there's just no need for a gun, but I haven't been there. I suspect what's really at issue is the public's mindset. If you get accosted, it's more acceptable to just give up your belongings and tolerate the crime. If someone gets killed, well, lets hope the cops catch them.

The US was founded as a rebellion against big government (although the founders were probably more driven by a business desire than an ethical one). You'd never know this looking at our current government. Just like Animal Farm, it's now hard to tell the difference between the pigs and the humans.

But I do believe Americans still retain a stronger streak of independence and self reliance than people in most countries (now I'm going to hear it). We tolerate government because we have to, either because we cannot rid ourselves of it or we feel we need it for some things. We don't particularly like it, or trust it (Vietnam took care of that). We don't want it in our everyday lives, or depend on it for protection, food, or housing.

Okay, that's probably just me. Clearly, many Americans are happy to get the feds to try and solve all their problems and ignore the constitution. It's easier than working for a living. But I do believe there's a stronger desire for freedom and liberty in America than there is in most countries. It's getting whittled away, but it's still there, maybe because we're only 230 years old.

Of all the things that are yours that should not be taken away from you, your life and your body are the most important. While you may not feel its worth it to brandish a weapon to protect your wallet or your life, on the rare occasion this becomes an issue, that's a personal choice. It's the desire to have some say in the outcome, instead of just being a sheep hoping for the wolf's mercy. Protecting family magnifies the issue.

Hopefully, the decision in DC will lead to the recognition of the 2nd amendment throughout the US. Then, we don't have to do state-by-state research to try and drive across the country with some protection.

When 10% of the population is packing, stupid people with guns will get weeded out fairly quickly. Of course there will be problems, but there are problems today with all the gun laws on the books. Criminals can now act almost with impunity. Look at the crime rates in Washington DC and New York that have banned all guns.

If nothing else, I bet it would lead to a general increase in people's politeness. Being an asshole could certainly become more risky. :)

[pieceofficer]

Pulling the gun in most cases stops the problem in its tracks...

Um....maybe in Law Enforcement....but on the streets...when you pull a gun, it tends to escalate....because now the guy that was "pawing at your girl" becomes the victim as you branish a weapon... Sounds crappy huh? Well..it is the truth.
Do you know that in LE when an officer is shot, more than 70% of the time it is by his own weapon? Guess what...it is greater with citizens that pull a firearm out thinking the "problem will stop in it's tracks"

Just like the guy in bed with the sidearm in the nightstand.(happens A LOT)...a crackhead comes in looking for something to pawn/trade for his next fix...his BP is up, his body is pumping, his adrenaline is through the roof....he comes in your bedroom, your asleep you hear something, you open your eyes and see someone...you immediately grab for your sidearm...he sees you...you are groggy...tired...uncoordinated....before you know it...he has it and you are now pistol whipped....shot, dead, bleeding to death... DON'T Kid yourself... If you think I am full of crap...well...so be it... I have investigated this very crime!

and sometimes you just have to shoot.

yea...well use that line on the stand!!

[JCabranes]

Um....maybe in Law Enforcement....but on the streets...when you pull a gun, it tends to escalate....because now the guy that was "pawing at your girl" becomes the victim as you branish a weapon... Sounds crappy huh? Well..it is the truth.
Do you know that in LE when an officer is shot, more than 70% of the time it is by his own weapon? Guess what...it is greater with citizens that pull a firearm out thinking the "problem will stop in it's tracks"

Just like the guy in bed with the sidearm in the nightstand.(happens A LOT)...a crackhead comes in looking for something to pawn/trade for his next fix...his BP is up, his body is pumping, his adrenaline is through the roof....he comes in your bedroom, your asleep you hear something, you open your eyes and see someone...you immediately grab for your sidearm...he sees you...you are groggy...tired...uncoordinated....before you know it...he has it and you are now pistol whipped....shot, dead, bleeding to death... DON'T Kid yourself... If you think I am full of crap...well...so be it... I have investigated this very crime!



yea...well use that line on the stand!!

Nobody... at least not me... is saying you're full of crap. Do people get disarmed and shot by their own guns... absolutely. Does that mean you shouldn't pull out a gun when you or someone you care about is in danger of death or great bodily harm... don't think so. Being disarmed is the chance you take when you decide to carry... waking up and immediately having to struggle is the chance you take when you you keep a gun handy for personal protection. IMO, part of the problem in this country is that we are becoming a nanny state. The state will protect you... wtf, where does personal responsibility for your safety come into play. With all due respect to you and to the other LEOs you are unlikely to be with me when the situation arises that I need to pull a gun. I'll take my chances of being disarmed, rather than put myself at the mercy of some drug-addled criminal.

As for using that line on the stand. Yes I would. The RIGHT of self-defense means nothing if from time to time people don't actually defend themselves. The law in all states permits using deadly force because the law recognizes that sometimes you have to shoot. Shooting someone is absolutely the last option... but its an option.

[grifscoots]

Texas just passed the "Castle Doctrine". A man's home/shop/car is his castle and can be defended without retreat. Man, did that cause a ballyhoo from the non-gun folks.

I'd rather face a drug addict or drunk anyday compared to a psychopath. At least the addicted has some lapse of jusdgement and reaction time

[pieceofficer]

As for using that line on the stand. Yes I would. The RIGHT of self-defense means nothing if from time to time people don't actually defend themselves. The law in all states permits using deadly force because the law recognizes that sometimes you have to shoot. Shooting someone is absoluely the last option... but its an option.

You speak some truth.....however, who is going to decide it was your last option? You ofcourse! HOWEVER...you had better plan on mortgaging your house to pay for a GOOD attorney...and hopefully, he can articulate that it was your "Last Option" and why you chose to fight...instead of Flight...and MAYBE if you are lucky you will get 12 of your peers to agree with you.

Case in point....Man breaks in the house, gets shot by homeowner, he becomes paralyzed... man was found not guilty of attempted murder..but WAS charged with discharge of a firearm within city limits causing serious bodily injury...It is FOREVER on his record...Oh..and his homeowners insurance paid the suspect 300K...not to mention we as tax payers will pay his disability till he dies as our veteran seniors choose between food or medication that month.

I do NOT disagree with you...but it is not a Black & White area....there is more damn Gray than anything....and within that Gray is where you lie 99.999999% of the time. Even in LE WITH video Cameras...audio...etc. WE are in the Gray.

Good luck with your choices...and as I said... I do not disagree with you completely...just letting you know as I previously stated "When you carry you must accept the responsibility for your actions" Because there are attorneys out there that will ensure you are held accountable.

[JOHNMAC]

I Have Traveled Extensively Out West
Most Times With Another Bike But If Your Alone
Especially In Southern Arizona Then Pack It It Can't Hurt
And Probably Save Your Life.
Pretty Desolate In Some Parts Of The West And You Won't Realize It Until Your There

[Clem]

Case in point....Man breaks in the house, gets shot by homeowner, he becomes paralyzed... man was found not guilty of attempted murder..but WAS charged with discharge of a firearm within city limits causing serious bodily injury...It is FOREVER on his record...Oh..and his homeowners insurance paid the suspect 300K...not to mention we as tax payers will pay his disability till he dies as our veteran seniors choose between food or medication that month.

I.

I thought the law now says that no criminal can profit from the comission of a crime. So no book deals, no movie deals and no suing a home owner for damages if you break into his house.

[Clem]

Texas just passed the "Castle Doctrine". A man's home/shop/car is his castle and can be defended without retreat. Man, did that cause a ballyhoo from the non-gun folks.

I'd rather face a drug addict or drunk anyday compared to a psychopath. At least the addicted has some lapse of jusdgement and reaction time


Arizona does not have a retreat law. I do not have to attempt to back down from a situation.

[Lonewuff]

Clem,

You can't ban anyone from suing someone else. The criminal's are suing home owners all the time for stuff. A burglar got stuck in a garage for several days while the victims were on vacation and sued the home owner for it. A cab company and driver got sued when the cabbie ran over a would be robber's leg. You are right about the book deals etc, but when it comes to civil law that is a whole different story, especially when it comes to wrongful death suits or damage claims.

[grifscoots]

I thought the law now says that no criminal can profit from the comission of a crime. So no book deals, no movie deals and no suing a home owner for damages if you break into his house.

That doesn't stop the lawyer's from profitting:eek:

[grifscoots]

Arizona does not have a retreat law. I do not have to attempt to back down from a situation.

We don't either.... now.

[Clem]

I don't believe that Europe is such a nice place that there's just no need for a gun, but I haven't been there. I suspect what's really at issue is the public's mindset. If you get accosted, it's more acceptable to just give up your belongings and tolerate the crime. If someone gets killed, well, lets hope the cops catch them.

. :)

I'm guessing that’s why we have had to over to Europe and bail them out when they surrender at the first sign of trouble. Last year in Iraq I watched a British APC burn to the ground when an Iraqi threw a multov cocktail at it. I asked the Brit why he didn't shoot the guy with the cocktail and he replied "after he threw the cocktail he was unarmed". Weak and pathetic.

[kdog]

The criminal's are suing home owners all the time for stuff. A burglar got stuck in a garage for several days while the victims were on vacation and sued the home owner for it.

Is this the incident you're thinking of?

"October 1998: A Terrence Dickson of Bristol Pennsylvania was exiting a house he finished robbing by way of the garage. He was not able to get the garage door to go up, because the automatic door opener was malfunctioning. He couldn't re-enter the house because the door connecting the house and garage locked when he pulled it shut. The family was on vacation, so Mr. Dickson found himself locked in the garage for eight days. He subsisted on a case of Pepsi he found, and a large bag of dry dog food. This upset Mr. Dickson, so he sued the homeowner's insurance claiming the situation caused him undue mental anguish. The jury agreed to the tune of half a million dollars and change."

Because if it is, it's an urban legend (http://www.snopes.com/legal/lawsuits.asp).

-joel

[Lonewuff]

No Joel,

The one I am refering to happened in Illinois about three years ago (???) and the guy won a $150K settlement for the three days and two nights he had to spend in the garage with a crushed ankle or wrist...maybe both. He actually came in through the roof of the garage and couldn't get back out, because he stepped on the rail track of the garage door to come down. The rail bent causing him to fall. The home owner had a metal door put into the house entry to prevent anyone from breaking in (two previous burglars had come in the same way as this guy--course they couldn't connect the guy to the previous burglaries either) and the jury felt that it was a booby trap.

[Bobnoxous]

The home owner had a metal door put into the house entry to prevent anyone from breaking in (two previous burglars had come in the same way as this guy--course they couldn't connect the guy to the previous burglaries either) and the jury felt that it was a booby trap.

This is just embarrassing. These are the same people electing our bureaucrats. Is it any wonder we have the government we have.

The sad part is that the victims aren't compensated when things do go right. If someone steals from you and is caught, you're lucky if you get your stuff back. You still pay the insurance deductible for repairs (and higher insurance rates for what is covered), and the cogs in the legal system all make their salary while prosecuting the criminal. How about the criminal paying restitution to the victims? They should pay for everything, not the insurance, plus a penalty (to the victims, not the government). It's just to profitable to be a thief.

[midwilshire]

HOWEVER...you had better plan on mortgaging your house to pay for a GOOD attorney.... Have you read Mr. Cabranes profile?

He's a criminal defense attorney.

[midwilshire]

The sad part is that the victims aren't compensated when things do go right. If someone steals from you and is caught, you're lucky if you get your stuff back.
I just want to make you aware that, since you are in CA, you may avail yourself of California's Crime Victim's Fund (http://www.vcgcb.ca.gov/default.htm/). I've seen it work well for violent crimes, but it does not apply unless there has been real or threatened personal injury.

[Bobnoxous]

California's Crime Victim's Fund (http://www.vcgcb.ca.gov).
Someday, maybe New Hampshire, but today, thanks for the link. That's interesting. I wasn't aware of this program.

[Bruce_N]

Is this the incident you're thinking of?

"October 1998: A Terrence Dickson of Bristol Pennsylvania was exiting a house he finished robbing by way of the garage. He was not able to get the garage door to go up, because the automatic door opener was malfunctioning. He couldn't re-enter the house because the door connecting the house and garage locked when he pulled it shut. The family was on vacation, so Mr. Dickson found himself locked in the garage for eight days. He subsisted on a case of Pepsi he found, and a large bag of dry dog food. This upset Mr. Dickson, so he sued the homeowner's insurance claiming the situation caused him undue mental anguish. The jury agreed to the tune of half a million dollars and change."

Because if it is, it's an urban legend (http://www.snopes.com/legal/lawsuits.asp).

-joel
Legend or not, the dude should be shot for sheer stupidity.

[Morley]

That doesn't stop the lawyer's from profitting:eek:
Start by shooting them.

[pieceofficer]

Have you read Mr. Cabranes profile?

He's a criminal defense attorney.


"He who represents himself, has a fool for an Attorney"

[JCabranes]

Start by shooting them.

Expect return fire when you come for me. :)

[Lonewuff]

Expect return fire when you come for me. :)


Ahhhh...now were talkin. :histerica

[JCabranes]

"He who represents himself, has a fool for an Attorney"

Generally true, which is why I would pay someone else to represent me. The real problem with representing yourself is that most people are too emotionally involved in their case to be objective. That's part of what you pay a lawyer to do... give objective advice.

But on another subject. Most states as far as I'm aware have some form of a victim's compensation fund. But they usually only cover economic damages (medical, lost wages, property damage) and then only as a secondary source meaning if you are insured your insurance pays then the gov't program pays what your insurance didn't. Works relatively well unless you have a victim that isn't able or willing to jump through the hoops the government is going to put in your way before you can collect or if you have long lasting or permanent injuries because restitution must be set within a relatively short period of time after the case is over. In any event, the victims with longer term injuries are just hosed. Example that should hit close to home for all on this board: Recently a drunk driver turned the wrong way on a one way street and took out a guy on a motorcycle. The rider was not wearing a helmet and sustained major head injuries. The victim's insurance was eaten up fairly quickly and predictably the drunk had no insurance. The restitution order covered all of the uncovered expenses the vic had suffered up until the time of sentencing (many thousands of dollars). Not covered under the restitution order are the continuing expenses that the vic will have... rehab, probably reduced earning capacity, etc. His only option... a civil suit. This guy could probably get a mid-seven figure judgment (if not more) based on his injuries. Problem, how are you going to collect from a person who already is going to owe the State a boatload of restitution and who is now earning prison wages (btw she only got 18 months) and who will probably not earn enough money, once she gets out, to pay any more than a small percentage of what she owes.
Its tragic stories like these that highlight the inadequacy of these victim compensation programs... they're better than nothing but they don't come close to making someone whole who's been seriouly injured as a result of a crime.

[Morley]

Expect return fire when you come for me. :)
Not when using this. :cool:

[UncleRock]

How trained are you at going for that peashooter?
Any special forces types and well trained LEO's on here will tell you that distance is your friend.
Unless you train on at least a by weekly basis, a gap of 16' or less can be closed before you can get into a shooting position. Even with a speed draw rig, the training is of the utmost importance. Hand launched missiles extend that distance out almost double. :think: (Thats right Jarheads, remember weapons of opportunity, taught by Sgt Necessity) Don't believe me unload your weapon and practice it.
In a trial of close to 100 participants,Johnny Vhertaber(Ranger, DEA, Heinz Family bodyguard) was the only one able to post up at 13' :cool: .
It is one thing to move through a stage with targets that don't really attack you, whole different ballgame when you got a 350lb foaming at the mouth beast trying to crush you.
After the first one got leveled at the 21' line, by Tarantula (yeah the wrestler) you could see in their eyes, it was a new ball game. :eek:
Rock

[brianbeemer]

I do believe there's a stronger desire for freedom and liberty in America than there is in most countries. It's getting whittled away, but it's still there, maybe because we're only 230 years old.

Funny, my wife (American) and I were discussing this only the other day - where is freedom greater, the US or the UK? It's fashionable to knock the US and what it stands for these days, but then it's fashionable to knock every country at some time or another in its history, it's just your turn at the moment. Britain had its Empire, as did France, Spain, Portugal, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany et al, so we know a little about being knocked, and we've got a few thousand years experience under our belts (if you go back to the Romans and their empire). The Muslim world is starting to get a few knocks, now, and they don't like it either.

However, we can all be our own worst enemies, particularly Americans right now, and actually the words you used betray a certain insecurity perhaps? Your desire for freedom and liberty is uncontested, but do you actually have them? Compared to some countries you are better off, compared to others I have to question whether you do, but first we all have to have a common agreement on what does freedom really mean, and what is liberty exactly? That'll never happen, imo.

Here's a simple question - can anyone (literally anyone) open a bank account in the US? Can you walk into a bank with some cash and ask them if you can open an account? No, you can't. You have to have an SSN and to get one of those.... It used to be true anyone with cash could open an account in the UK, but now you have to also produce a letter addressed to you before you can open one. How free is that compared with the US requirement? Incidentally, I just asked about opening a bank account in France so I can get one of those cash cards that will work in the automated pumps. All they asked was that I was a UK resident, ergo a resident of the EC. Sounds pretty free to me, that. Notwithstanding the above, the crooks will always find a way of course, but that's not what we're talking about.

The above is just an illustration; the greatest philosophers haven't resolved those types of questions and I'm darned sure I can't.

Another. What effect do all the CCTV cameras in the UK have on freedom and liberty? Do they stop me being free? No. Can I come and go as I please, when I please, where I please? Yes. Do they affect my liberty. Not that I'm aware of. What about speed cameras? I'm certainly not free to drive the speed I want in the UK, but neither is anyone else in any country. Argue that 'freedom' point with your local LEO!!!

Anyway, I'm rambling a bit, and my wife having lived with me in the US, the UK and South Africa and spent time in Europe with me concluded that the US is not really as free as they like to think they are and that she knows she is freer in the UK than she was at home in the US. One thing I have noticed, though, (and this may be an interesting topic over a few beers) is that she doesn't spend time with other Americans when here (other than one close friend) and I tend to avoid other Brits when abroad. We mix with the locals wherever we go. However, we do spend time with other bikers regardless of nationality!

At least the UK doesn't have a patriot act and the worst anti-terrorism 'laws' that Blair and Co tried to introduce to restrict our freedom were quashed ........ and aren't generalisations wonderful? :rotf: (Sorry, couldn't resist!)

[Morley]

To most, opening a bank account is no measure of freedom. The SSN requirement is for tax and accounting purposes, its how people in the US have been identified (to the govt.) since social security came about. It is true that without one you can't do some things in this country. But there are ways of getting by without a SSN, people do it every day. And the patriot act hasn't affected me. While I would agree that the govt and others in positions of power are trying to take away our freedoms little by little, we are still a damn sight better off than most other places in the world.

Here are a couple that slant against the U.K.
Can you go to a gun shop in the UK and just buy a gun?
What about the "Telly Police"? Gotta have a license to watch television?

[tomandmelanie]

Don't be so smug over there in the UK. As I recall you have been with us hand in hand on these endevors of late, the UK has far many more axes to grind in the Mid East than the US does and suffers a similar if not worse reputation.
As Americans our willingness to pour out trillions of dollars to a world that greets us with snubs and insults is quickly melting away. The tide has turned, it may take us ten years to extract ourselves from the "World Order" spider web but we will do it. Soon enough the trillions of dollars will come home and start to support a technology base that frees us from foriegn oil and allows us to invest in our futures. We Americans bicker like teenage daughters and launder our underware in public because we have the courage and abiltiy to do so and we are proud of it. No country comes to the plate when the chips are down like America does however the world will find us far more indifferent going foreword. Now we are scorned for involvement, soon enough we will be increasingly scorned for lack of it.
The UK is a valued partner but don't fool yourself; we took a different path a few hundred years ago and Americans intend on sticking to it. Europe does not vote in our elections even though it often seems Europe thinks they should have a right to do so.
We will never trade our liberties for yours and we will never have to. That's one of the reasons we have a second amendment.

[brianbeemer]

Here are a couple that slant against the U.K.
Can you go to a gun shop in the UK and just buy a gun?
What about the "Telly Police"? Gotta have a license to watch television?
First one - not quite, as you need a licence. Isn't this true in the US too? If I have a licence I can go into a gunshop in the UK and buy a gun. If I get a licence in Mass I can go into a gunshop and buy a gun. What's the difference? Actually I went into a gunshop in the UK last year and bought a .22 rifle without a licence, perfectly legally. I have a safe 50 yard range on my property and I shoot vermin from time to time. I don't need a licence for that gun, just permission from the landowner to use it on his/her property. At home that's me!
As for the TV police, don't you contribute to public broadcasting like a good citizen? Good for a tax break at least, and all those great programmes! Even if you don't personally contribute your government does for you. I did when we lived in the US and to the two stations we supported in Boston (WGBH and a BU radio station) we actually gave more cash than we pay for the UK licence 10 years later, so what's the big deal?

Europe does not vote in our elections even though it often seems Europe thinks they should have a right to do so.

So why does the US interfere in other countries? Same argument surely? Do I hear someone say they're bringing peace and democracy to another country? Who defines democracy, and in reality the US isn't a democracy it's a republic (as is France, incidentally)? Nit-picky, but true.

It's your choice to spend all that money on fighting wars where no-one wants you. Yes, the UK is doing the same (to a minimal extent it seems), but just wait for the next election and Blair and his bunch of liars (soon to be Brown, God help us) will be thrown out. No-one here believes anything that this government says any more even if it happens to be true!

The point is, everyone's idea of freedom and liberty isn't the same as yours, and my wife says she is freer in the UK. So does her son, incidentally, and he's lived here since graduation and is raising a family etc. Personally I no longer listen to anyone who says they are freer than anyone else and they don't even own a passport - whichever country they're from. Some in the US who go on about how wonderful the freedoms are in the US have never been out of their own state! Those people really have no idea...

[Morley]

First one - not quite, as you need a licence. Isn't this true in the US too?
No. not true in every state. Most states you merely have to register a handgun (when purchased) and in a private sale...no paperwork at all. Rifles and shotguns..no license, no registration (most instances).

As for the TV police, don't you contribute to public broadcasting like a good citizen? No, I don't, I don't watch PBS either. AND I don't want/need my govt telling me I have to (telly license). As far as govt. "donatons" to PBS...don't think so, they rely on donations from corporations and people.


So why does the US interfere in other countries?
This one is too good to pass up on... Remember back a few years when there was all of that internal fighting going on in Bosnia & Serbia? Do you remember who was TOLD by the other members of the U.N. that THEY had to go in and do something? They just HAD to stop those people from killing each other?
I surely remember. EVERYONE in the U.N. insisted that it was the responsibility of the U.S.A. to "police" that conflict, send troops and get them under control... Fast forward to 2003 and Iraq. The U.S. decides to act in that region and NOW all of the bleeding hearts that insisted WE had to do something in Bosnia are telling us that Iraq is none of our business and stay away (we spoiled their exclusive oil agreements they had with Saddam).
It seems that the other nations wern't interested in the attempted genocide going on there. but they were crying about the genocide of the Serbs. So we should just let the rest of the world decide where and when we should act? And then when only when it serves THEIR interests and agendas? Last time I checked we broke away from european rule back in the 1770's.
Sorry but that whole Bosnia thing really chapped my ass and then to have the U.N. try to "vote us down" on going to Iraq... The U.N. is broken and should be dismantled and replaced. This time we won't invite the french either.
Some in the US who go on about how wonderful the freedoms are in the US have never been out of their own state! Those people really have no idea... I know I have more freedoms in the U.S. than anywhere else in the world I have been (Germany, England, Spain, Italy, Turkey, U.A.E., Oman, Bahrain, Denmark, France, Canada, etc, etc) Give me my hard won American freedoms any day. And yes, I have fought for my freedoms and served my country in war.

[kdog]

Here's a simple question - can anyone (literally anyone) open a bank account in the US? Can you walk into a bank with some cash and ask them if you can open an account? No, you can't. You have to have an SSN and to get one of those.... It used to be true anyone with cash could open an account in the UK, but now you have to also produce a letter addressed to you before you can open one. How free is that compared with the US requirement? Sorry, I'm calling BS on that. First of all, you need identification. Second, the "letter" used to prove your mailing address must be "official", whatever that means. Read the following.

"How do I open a bank account?

In the past few years it has become more complicated to open a bank account in the UK, owing to the tight laws designed to prevent money laundering or terrorist activity. You will only be able to open a bank account close to where you live or work, not in a third region. Most banks require proof of identity and proof of your UK address (often two different proofs of address), and for certain accounts you may also need proof of income.

Proof of identity. The best option for this is your passport, although some banks may also accept an ID card or driving license, as long as it includes a photograph.

Proof of UK address. You should try to arrange your accommodation before coming to the UK, and get some official documentation sent to you there. Ask your employer if they can sort out some accommodation for you, even if it is only temporary. "

Source: http://www.britishcouncil.org/eumobility-living-in-uk-finance-banking.htm

Proof of identity and mailing address is the same requirement as in the US. It just so happens that the US use the SSN as the uniform identification system for banking and healthcare. Every citizen of the US is entitled to an SSN, and you do this exactly once in your life in the US, typically done by your parents. So in what way does that limit anybody's freedom? Perhaps that makes it tougher for outsiders, but that's not what you're talking about. Your question is how free are we in the US? By your banking metric, I'm perfectly free. If it makes it more difficult for outsiders, that's fine with me. I sleep better at night knowing that my local bank isn't being used for international money laundering, funding terrorism, and the fact that when somebody writes me a check that the person writing it has been properly identified to the bank.


At least the UK doesn't have a patriot act and the worst anti-terrorism 'laws' that Blair and Co tried to introduce to restrict our freedom were quashed ........ and aren't generalisations wonderful? :rotf: (Sorry, couldn't resist!)
So laugh all you want, but you've only cited one example and it's bogus. The UK has essentially the same standards for opening bank accounts as the US.

Got any others?

Regards,
-joel

[gunny]

Register youor firearms? I don't think so.

The way it works for a long arm (rifle or shotgun). You go the the store, pick out what you want, fill out the ATS form, pay your money and take the gun home with you. There are exceptions to this such as waiting periods in some places (Kalifornia comes to mind). Pistols is about the same except some places require a permit to purchase. You go to the sheriff's office and apply, within a time frame (a couple of days to a lot longer) you come back, take your permit to the gun store, fill out the ATF form and take your pistol home. In this state, a CCW holder uses that as their permit to purchase and no waiting, no fuss.

Open a bank account in the US without a SSN? Sure, easy, if you are an undocumented alien. One of our local banks advertised that they would transfer funds to Mexico at half the rate they would transfer to anywhere in the US. After a few questions from me, including some concerning SSN numbers and some unsatisfactory answers from the bank officer, I closed my account with them that day.

Back to the original thread. Yes I pack. Not each and every time I ride. Kind of like all the gear all the time, don't do that either. I carry on my person, would be embarassing to need it and it be where I could not get to it in a reasonable time, also solves the issue of it being in my control at all times.

I would rather be judged by a jury of 12 than carried feet first by 6 of my friends. I'd prefer to be responsible for my own safety and security rather than to put it in the hands of our government which seems to have problems with about anything it gets involved with. Gues that I'm one of the few that refuses to be a victim if I can help it.

[brianbeemer]

The annual toll of gun-related deaths in the US is approximately 25,000. In the UK it is about 600. The population of the US is approximately 4.5 times that of the US, so you are about 10 times more likely to die from a gunshot in the US than in the UK. That is worse than the likelihood of being killed while riding a motorcycle than in a car wreck. You are also extremely likely to be killed by your own weapon - I don't have the stats for that, but no doubt someone does. What is the likelihood of being killed by gunshot if you don't own a gun versus if you do? I'll lay odds it's much higher? Of course everything boils down to risk assessment, but for me it's just not worth the risk and it's really got nothing to do with how the law operates, or doesn't as the case may be. Maybe my examples weren't particularly good, but to what do you actually compare gun-carrying anyway? I don't think there's anything equivalent, and certainly nothing that would inspire debate instead of simply running on emotion.

[ldbikin]

I believe your numbers are flawed. Most gun deaths in the USA are domestic if I recall correctly, so the stat's you provide are 'loaded'.

And, being human, if there's no gun, get the knife...if theres no knife, get the club...etc etc. Deranged people will find a way to kill.

When you really need that weapon, you'll be daymed glad you have it. Or, you can call the cops to make out the reports and tell you "why it happened". Not this kid, my momma raised uglies, not fools.

I'm not in disagreement that training is paramount, as are some rules, to avoid shooting yourself or someone else. But people who use table saws are also much more likely to cut off their fingers. It goes to reason. There is some risk which must be mitigated.

Like I say in my business, dead people can't complain, it is up to the rest of us who are living to make the changes while applying the lessons learned.

Until the planet is a perfect place to live, I'll carry when I feel the need.

Regards...geo




The annual toll of gun-related deaths in the US is approximately 25,000. In the UK it is about 600. The population of the US is approximately 4.5 times that of the US, so you are about 10 times more likely to die from a gunshot in the US than in the UK. That is worse than the likelihood of being killed while riding a motorcycle than in a car wreck. You are also extremely likely to be killed by your own weapon - I don't have the stats for that, but no doubt someone does. What is the likelihood of being killed by gunshot if you don't own a gun versus if you do? I'll lay odds it's much higher? Of course everything boils down to risk assessment, but for me it's just not worth the risk and it's really got nothing to do with how the law operates, or doesn't as the case may be. Maybe my examples weren't particularly good, but to what do you actually compare gun-carrying anyway? I don't think there's anything equivalent, and certainly nothing that would inspire debate instead of simply running on emotion.

[brianbeemer]

I believe your numbers are flawed. Most gun deaths in the USA are domestic if I recall correctly, so the stat's you provide are 'loaded'.

Not at all, Geo. They are 'like for like', apples for apples, oranges for oranges. The numbers include domestics, suicides, homicides, accidents, in fact every death from gunshot possible in each case. It still makes for very sad reading - 25,000 a YEAR ...

FWIW, I also cut off the end of my thumb above the joint on a tablesaw - but the doc sewed it back on and I still have 2 thumbs, and I'm more than careful using the saw nowadays! ;) I'm not sure the risk of chopping off a bit of your body in a saw is as bad as being shot to death, but...

As far as govt. "donatons" to PBS...don't think so, they rely on donations from corporations and people.
The US government does give tax dollars to PBS, and I think it works out at about $30 for every man woman and child in the country, but you are right that individual and corporate donations make up the bulk of their income. For an average US family the US 'donation' to PBS is equivalent to roughly half of what the BBC gets as license income per household. I hope you don't watch any BBC output otherwise I exxpect you to donate something to offset my increase! ;)

[jgburns]

The annual toll of gun-related deaths in the US is approximately 25,000. In the UK it is about 600. The population of the US is approximately 4.5 times that of the US, so you are about 10 times more likely to die from a gunshot in the US than in the UK. That is worse than the likelihood of being killed while riding a motorcycle than in a car wreck.

Hey (AKA Hi) Brian,
We live in different cultures, thus different risks. I don't have the time to research what is taking lives in the UK, but more people per thousand die in the UK than in the US.
UK: 10.13 deaths/1,000 population (2006 est.); see UK stats: https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/uk.html
US: 8.26 deaths/1,000 population (2006 est.); see US stats: https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html

Maybe you feel that eliminating guns or restricting access will saves lives, but that would be a judgment, not a fact. ... perhaps a judgment based upon emotion about your understandable loathing for a tool that can so easily take a life.

[kdog]

This just in:

The UK is the knife crime capital (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article1626691.ece)

What's that they say about people who live in glass houses?

Regards,
-joel

[ldbikin]

I must say that skill and table saws scared me more for decades for no particular reason, than a gun ever did from the first time I picked one up as a young lad. Even when I was trained to use them. I've lost that fear but it took a long time. I still have a very healthy respect for them, guns and also rattlesnakes :)

maybe everyone just has their own paranoia's...

[kdog]

Power saws are way more dangerous to the operator than are guns. One small slip and a board can kick back and embed itself into your body, or drag your hand through the blade. Jointers are even worse because they'll turn flesh into hamburger so that there's nothing left to reattach. With a gun, you just have to make sure it's pointing away from you when loaded.

Cheers,
-joel

[brianbeemer]

Hey (AKA Hi) Brian,
We live in different cultures, thus different risks. I don't have the time to research what is taking lives in the UK, but more people per thousand die in the UK than in the US.
UK: 10.13 deaths/1,000 population (2006 est.); see UK stats: https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/uk.html
US: 8.26 deaths/1,000 population (2006 est.); see US stats: https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html

Maybe you feel that eliminating guns or restricting access will saves lives, but that would be a judgment, not a fact. ... perhaps a judgment based upon emotion about your understandable loathing for a tool that can so easily take a life.
Hmmmm. I'm not sure where you got the idea I have a loathing for guns - I own one in fact. I also eat what I shoot - game birds, not the vermin! I don't think restriction is necessarily the solution - Canada has almost the same gun ownership freedom as the US but has nowhere near the same level of gun deaths, and in Switzerland it is actually against the law for there NOT to be a gun in the house I believe, so it's not necessarily gun ownership per se that's the issue. Fortunately I don't have to try and solve that problem, but people the world over perceive that the US is more dangerous than it need be because people own and carry guns. The homicide rate in DC was higher than Johannesburg, South Africa, through the 90's and I couldn't get consultants to work in SA but they'd work in DC no problem. Go figure.

Interesting stat links - but look at the population distribution. The UK population is on average older than the US, so I'd expect a higher mortality rate. Could be one answer? I don't know. There are many more smokers here, too. We have less obese, but are catching you up!

I have no idea how many people are killed by knives in the UK, but it's in the hundreds, not tens of thousands. There are some very interesting social studies going on about such crime right now. It's been shown that high population densities correlate closely and the UK has some of the densest population areas. Back to stats again, the UK has 2.6% of the land area of the US yet has 20% of the population. Of course, Manhattan is different, and so is the desert, but we have London and the moors... Just shows how comparative stats can mislead? Or do they? If the population of the US was 2.4 billion instead of 298 million (same overall density as the UK today), what would the stats then reveal?

This is too much and my head's hurting! It's a sunny evening and I'm going for a ride. To hell with global warming!

[BillyOmaha]

- The most restrictive laws are regarding "concealed weapons". In many places, NOT CA, you can legally carry a loaded sidearm in your vehicle that is not concealed. You could put it on your dash-board and, in many cases, be legal....though certainly not all areas. In many urban areas, Clark County, NV (Las Vegas area) for example it is against the law.

- East Coast residents seem to have a different perspective than those in "fly over" country. The ground between the Rocky and the Sierra Nevada Mountains can be some of the most desolate country you'll come across. In short, no one is going to come to your aid if you get tangled up with bad guys.

- I have had my path blocked by "bad guys" in the middle of BFE with the wife and two young kids. Fortunately the wheels and tires on my vehicle were not the size they "needed", so I didn't have to remove my right hand from between the seats, and they moved on. The wife, who is an avowed pacifist, said afterward, "I am so glad you had the Colt".

- I don't carry often as society has many rules that penalize innocent and otherwise law abiding citizens for having a sidearm, so it just isn't worth it a lot of the time. However, I refuse to be dissuaded from going someplace out of apprehension that I might be "naked" when I cross pathes with a bad guy. I alleviate that apprehension by going "dressed".

.

[Oisin]

Die post die please.

[jgburns]

Hmmmm. I'm not sure where you got the idea I have a loathing for guns - I own one in fact. Would that be a handgun or a musket? :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

[brianbeemer]

Would that be a handgun or a musket? :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:
A modern .22 rifle... ;) ;) ;) I also have an antique handgun but you can't buy the cartridges for it any more :(

Die post die please.
No-one says you have to read it....

[Clem]

I have picked up a Bond Arms Derringer in the colt 45/410 caliber (very nice gun is you need another) and a North American Arms 22 magnum derringer in the last week. Every gun has it's role!

[jgburns]

A modern .22 rifle... ;) ;) ;) I also have an antique handgun but you can't buy the cartridges for it any more :(

I've decided to upgrade my personal protection! Puny handguns just won't do the job anymore! :rotf:

[Ghost55]

I always carry on trips, a Sig .45 acp. Check concealedcarry.org for a listing of states that reciprocate with yours. In addition many, if not most states have a "peaceable transit" law which is not well publicized. It allows you to transit states that do not honor your CCW permit, as long as you do not spend the night, and stop only for food or gas.

[JCabranes]

More grist for the mill...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18237342/?GT1=9246

[GBarnes]

Fellas,

... Question is, what do people carry for personal protection while travelling?
F

Trojans ribbed?

A slightly off-topic, slightly off-funny story:

A dirt biking buddy and I were getting ready to leave for a trip to testify at some US Senate hearings on off-road closures. He shows up at my house and, as we were leaving, but in front of my wife, says: "I didn't pack any protection, did you?". Now, my wife knows we are sharing a motel room, but is thinking of a different kind of protection and asks: "What the heck do you need that for?". My buddy, with a red face, explained he was talking about a gun. It took a while for him to live that one down.

GB

[RVB1019]

In my 20s and 30s, I thought I could always find a way to protect my family should the need arise. Being a teacher in NYC, I was very much anti gun. I saw the damage done to families on a regular basis. I went to four funerals for student and their family members who were cut down by gun violence.

Now that the big 40 is on the horizon, I am starting to think about purchasing a gun for protection. Is this normal? Am I becoming paranoid? Why does this thread make sense to me?

[Ted]

Is this normal? Am I becoming paranoid? Why does this thread make sense to me?

We live in a time where you can be shot at school, work, Wal-Mart, and the post office, just to name a few. Although the chances that you'lll ever personally encounter one of these random acts is slim, the unfortunate fact remains that if you do, you'd probably be better off armed than unarmed. That said, if you do find yourself armed in one of these situations, it doesn't mean you come out blazing, either. You still must be a responsible gun owner and evaluate the situation. Like the saying goes, don't pull a gun unless you intend to use it.

So, no, I do not think you are paranoid.

[eljeffe]

In my 20s and 30s, I thought I could always find a way to protect my family should the need arise. Being a teacher in NYC, I was very much anti gun. I saw the damage done to families on a regular basis. I went to four funerals for student and their family members who were cut down by gun violence.

Now that the big 40 is on the horizon, I am starting to think about purchasing a gun for protection. Is this normal? Am I becoming paranoid? Why does this thread make sense to me?

No, I don't think you're being paranoid. You're just evaluating the risk/benefit to carry or not.

When I was 17, I was run off the road by two guys in a pickup who were hell-bent on causing me bodily harm. Had I not been carrying and trained to use the pistol my father had given me on my 16th birthday, I wouldn't be here to have this discussion. Granted that I travelled across rural New Mexico, and not in a more populated location, so my views might be different if I grew up in a more urban environment.

When I have planned trips that take me to Canada or Mexico, I've had to do some significant soul searching on whether or not to make the trip. I did a trip of nearly 8000 miles a few years ago without it, and the feeling of travelling without a firearm was unnerving, but not overwhelming. It's not like it bothered me, but I always knew it wasn't going to be there if I needed it. I have and will make trips where I make the decision to leave the pistol at home, but there is a naked feeling when I do. It's a matter of evaluating the risk and acting accordingly.

[grifscoots]

When I have planned trips that take me to Canada or Mexico, I've had to do some significant soul searching on whether or not to make the trip. Now, I can take the steek! Jerry's class was awesome.

[hagar]

A lot of interesting comments from people that do not take been victimized lightly, and a lot of bleating from unarmed sheep as well. I like the idea of carrying wasp spray, there are times when you get threatened but not seriously enough to pull a gun, and an attitude adjustment is all you need. I am a very laid back individual, I don't go looking for trouble, and do my best to avoid it, but sometimes these are the kind of people that become victims. Therefore, I ALWAYS carry, not for fear of being assaulted on my motorcycle, it's when you stop for lunch/gas/camping or stopping at a rest area when you have to worry. And a Daewoo K1 223 fits nicely in my rear trunk. A handgun is a good tool to fight your way to a rifle!

I'd rather would have gone unarmed in the wild west than today, where we have gangbangers, drug smugglers, meth addicts and just pure evil people going around looking for other people to hurt. I have been involved in at least 4 situations in the US and 2 in South Africa where I had to pull a gun to defend my life, and came within 1/2 pound of pressure of shooting somebody. Fortunately he/they saw that I was determined, and they chose to walk away. I have been harassed out in the AZ desert by mehikan gangbangers that took a liking to my blonde wife, and I was thankful that my British L1A1 was more of a threat than they wanted to take on with handguns. My ex wife was followed home by a convicted sex offender out on bail, and only after I cocked a handgun in his ear did he leave. The police picked him up the next day cruising my neighborhood, and he went back to jail. I have had drunk and rowdy people harass me in my campground, been followed with intend to rob out of a Walmart in Phoenix (thank you Mr Glock 26), had people demanding money from me at a rest area, somebody shoot at me on my motorcycle on the Superstition freeway in Tempe(thankfully they missed), had people try and run me off the road on purpose while minding my own business, and yes, I have kicked mirrors off vehicles in my younger days! :D

I have a CCW that allows me to carry in most states, and I avoid the ones where I cannot. I even have one from New York state issued in 1987, and it never expires. I will not even consider taking a road trip to 3rd world mehiko, and there is nothing in canada except muskie fishing that I am remotely interested in.

[RonKMiller]

A lot of interesting comments from people that do not take been victimized lightly, and a lot of bleating from unarmed sheep as well. I like the idea of carrying wasp spray, there are times when you get threatened but not seriously enough to pull a gun, and an attitude adjustment is all you need. I am a very laid back individual, I don't go looking for trouble, and do my best to avoid it, but sometimes these are the kind of people that become victims. Therefore, I ALWAYS carry, not for fear of being assaulted on my motorcycle, it's when you stop for lunch/gas/camping or stopping at a rest area when you have to worry. And a Daewoo K1 223 fits nicely in my rear trunk. A handgun is a good tool to fight your way to a rifle!

I'd rather would have gone unarmed in the wild west than today, where we have gangbangers, drug smugglers, meth addicts and just pure evil people going around looking for other people to hurt. I have been involved in at least 4 situations in the US and 2 in South Africa where I had to pull a gun to defend my life, and came within 1/2 pound of pressure of shooting somebody. Fortunately he/they saw that I was determined, and they chose to walk away. I have been harassed out in the AZ desert by mehikan gangbangers that took a liking to my blonde wife, and I was thankful that my British L1A1 was more of a threat than they wanted to take on with handguns. My ex wife was followed home by a convicted sex offender out on bail, and only after I cocked a handgun in his ear did he leave. The police picked him up the next day cruising my neighborhood, and he went back to jail. I have had drunk and rowdy people harass me in my campground, been followed with intend to rob out of a Walmart in Phoenix (thank you Mr Glock 26), had people demanding money from me at a rest area, somebody shoot at me on my motorcycle on the Superstition freeway in Tempe(thankfully they missed), had people try and run me off the road on purpose while minding my own business, and yes, I have kicked mirrors off vehicles in my younger days! :D

I have a CCW that allows me to carry in most states, and I avoid the ones where I cannot. I even have one from New York state issued in 1987, and it never expires. I will not even consider taking a road trip to 3rd world mehiko, and there is nothing in canada except muskie fishing that I am remotely interested in.

You carry this in your trunk???? KEWL! (but just a bit overkill, dontcha' think? :D

I feel pretty comfortable with my 5 shot stainless S&W J frame 38 with hollow points... fits nicely in my tank bag. ;)

[hagar]

Well I have never actually drove around with it, but it does fit! And if I planned on touring the country and sleeping out under the stars, heck yes, it will be going along. Not just for 2 legged varmints, but for defence against bear, lion or rabid animals. Coyotes don't bother me one bit, I spent 14 years in AZ hunting them with varmint calls, and they take off at the slightest hint of man. I normally just carry a Glock 26 and a Kel-tec P32. An armed society is a polite society.

[kip]

The way I see it, we need to carry a handgun to the BMW shop more than on the road. You have a better chance of being robbed by the dealer, than anyone on the highway. I got a quote from my local dealer for a 12k complete service of "about $900 for labor and between $1500 and $2000 out the door, parts and labor" Seem like a lot for a bike that is worth $10K (it's a 2000 LTC) I don't mind supporting my dealer, but I don't want to adopt him. I'll just ride it 'till it drops and sell the leftovers on EBay!

haha....now thats funny i dont care who you are

[kip]

haha....well it always amazes me the polarity on the gun issue....

i just wish people who were against guns were as willing for me to have mine as i am for them not to have one....

in all good liklihood, most of us will never "need" a gun or have to use one

as for me, if im on the road, ill generally have one handy....and it will not be in deep storage or carried unloaded in a separate location from the ammo....

thats just me though....living the free life ;)

[CalLT]

Guns? I could not even imagine a situation where that would be of use and not endangering yourself. Give our fellow citizens a bit more credit... Do you really think that there will be occasions for a gun battle en route?

Or, am I missing something?

Big plus one. I guess I haven't seen enough John Wayne movies.

[grifscoots]

Big plus one. I guess I haven't seen enough John Wayne movies.I'd rather have one and not need it, than to need one and not have it.