Harley plant on strike!!!

[hawg]

http://money.cnn.com/2007/02/01/news/companies/harley.reut/index.htm?cnn=yes

[hybridcage]

I hope this works for the union members. Large corporations continue to expand the pay difference between the suits and the workers. Everyone deserves a fair share of the profits. Go Labor!!

[tbarstow]

Just another example of lazy unionized labor cutting their own throats. No wonder manufacturing is moving south and overseas.

[Ranger6]

Just another example of lazy unionized labor cutting their own throats. No wonder manufacturing is moving south and overseas.
Here, here! "Everyone deserves a fair share of the profits", my ass. Start your own company and see how your feel about it then.

[UncleRock]

2-1-07
Suspends production of touring and Softail motorcycleclick (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,249502,00.html)
Rock

[Florian]

Just another example of lazy unionized labor cutting their own throats. No wonder manufacturing is moving south and overseas.

I suspect its more medical coverage than anything else. My company's medical premiums have doubled in about 4 years....Its tough to be competitive when some portions of your overhead grows at that rate.


F

[dshealey]

I hope this works for the union members. Large corporations continue to expand the pay difference between the suits and the workers. Everyone deserves a fair share of the profits. Go Labor!!

Unions have long outlived their usefulness, and have degenerated into what has probably done more to force the USA into the big problems we have now regarding the loss of our manufacturing base than anything else. You think the upper management is greedy? Most Unions are more so. Those multi million dollar bonuses, as stupid and unearned as many of them are, are still a drop in the bucket overall, with the union driven overpaid and over benefited workers in many areas being the big killer.

We are rapidly becoming, actually have become, a "has been" country in the manufacturing arena. That means a huge loss of not just the basic manufacturing jobs, but all the ancilliary support structure across the board.

We have to compete globally now, not just with the guys down the street, or in the next state.

Wish it wasn't so, but we cannot compete well with the Far East, and even some European countries, although most of them are also going down the same path as we are.

There is no easy answer how this could be tackled. Protectionism makes people feel good for a little while, but in the end almost always fails miserably.

The playing field is certainly not level! China, who is likely to become the number one worldwide manufacturing power soon, is not playing fair in many ways. Even though I don't like protectionism it seems that a little of this applied judiciously against the countries playing hardball will be necessary. It just won't work long term.

I imagine China will be big in the automotive world within the next 10 years. They have their eyes on becoming the number one world super power, and it can happen quicker than we would want to believe. They have made mind boggling advances in their technology, and in many areas their quality is also advancing at a blinding pace. The last numbers I saw were that the USA is graduating approx. 13% engineers now, China about 60%. That is where it starts folks! We are graduating a lot of business and marketing people, but soon there will be nothing for them to do, except sell imports! But who will have the money to buy them?

[jayjacobson]

Harley plant on strike!!!

H-D's being built in China or Taiwan.......I can see it now........

[UncleRock]

Harley plant on strike!!!

H-D's being built in China or Taiwan.......I can see it now........
They started looking at a plant for Chinky Davidson in 2004
Rock

[MOSLEYDS]

I guess it makes sense H*rley sells American nostalgia and nothing says American nostalgia like a union strike.

[KayGee]

Back in the day my dad was a staunch union guy. I think a lot of it had to do with the fact that when he first started working in the paper plant (early 1950's) everything was segregated. He didn't get paid as much as the other guys, had separate shower facilities and suffered the daily humiliations that were so prevalent in the South during that time.

After the Civil Rights Movement, he was allowed to join the union and share in all of its benefits, he became a big defender of labor unions and the benefits that they offered the average factory worker as well as OSHA and the safety that became part of the factory workplace.

In the early 1980's when I was in college, he and I used to debate the fact that unions had really outlived their usefulness and that if things didn't change that the US would soon loose their reputation as being the manufacturing giant of the world.

He isn't here anymore for me to talk to but this post reminded me of him. Sorry to make this all about me.

[UltraLT]

Look at GM and Ford. Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. The UAW are one of the few unions that pay nothing for medical insurance. It is a big hit on US manufacturers and will only get worse. Especially, when the competition in other companies have their healthcare subsidized by the government. Wake up UAW.

BTW, there are still companies in the good ole USA that could still use a Union. Been there, done that.

Ultra LT
Life is about riding. All else is just waiting.

[tbarstow]

I agree that unions were useful in the past. Back when they still represented the employees that were in them, before they started operating as the parasitic businesses that they are today.

Look at the last UPS strike. The union publicly claimed that it was about part time people working full time hours. It was really about who would control the multi-billion dollar retirement fund.

Look at the US steel industry. The unions are what put them out of business. Now the retiree benefits are being dumped on you and I, the taxpayer, because the union that was "looking out for the welfare of the employee" squandered the retirement funds.

[cfell]

Since I am unaware of the emotional and financial facts, other than there is a "strike", how can I judge "fairness"?

What I know is my personal experience(s) which, no doubt, have my own "spin".

I respect the "ownership"/management responsibilities. Employees must also understand there are limits to what they are entitled.

I hope someone will correct my reality regarding HD. I recall the "employees" have seen it go from a family owned, to AMF, to stockholder company. Employees and Taxpayers have helped HD recover from bankruptcy....and come roaring back as a model of American Ingenuity in marketing....and some may argue, engineering.

Capitulations and sacrifices were made on many sides to realize these achievements. It was not only good "management" that turned the tide. Promises were made that employees would be fairly treated. It seems the employees and management disagree with what "fairness" actually means.

There is no doubt there are record profits being had and all "sides" should be treated respectfully, fairly... promises must be kept, because in the end, that is all that has lasting value. It is trust for and in the future decisions of "management" that led the employees to sacrifice during the "hard times".

Now, it is my own experience, the modus operandi of corporations to edict changes to which employees are not allowed to respond. It is a strong arm tactic and disingenuous at best. I'd wager there is a significant chasm in the wages earned by the elite and the serfs...$200 to the top wage earner may be insignificant, but it is stealing bread from those who commit to a company based upon their "values".

The pariah-du-jour is "healthcare cost crisis". Thank you Mrs. President Clinton for giving us "managed" health care... truly shades of things to come.

My own "healthcare" cost has risen significantly, without much reciprocal increase in health or care, instead yielding astronomical growth in "management" of it.

Recently, significant increases occurred in cost, strangely following inclusion of "domestic partnerships" into our group... Here's an "inconvenient fact. Prior to this "inclusion", to get medical insurance for my spouse at time of my retirement would have been around $80/month. Last week I checked and this cost is now nearing $600/month. "Just the facts, Ma-am", Joe Friday.

There is much "good" in America...and it doesn't all reside with the nobility of management elite. It is time for another revolution... for all of us in management and workers to step back and evaluate...

Speaking of evaluation, I hear this all the time... "We can outsource it cheaper"... yeah... same argument about SLAVERY which drug our nation into our own Civil War. It may be a few years out, but this country, if it continues the folly of "profit at any cost", will go the way of the railroad, airlines, medical and now HD industries. Sometimes we do and become the very thing we hate...

[RiderRay]

I do have to agree that unions seem to have outlived their usefulness in most industries. The sad part is that the unions feel that healthcare costs should be completely absorbed by companies and that the members should have this provided for free. Forget it, get over it. If you wnat a job in the future, start looking at the big picture. If you can't complete, you won't have a job. The baby boomers that have the money now to buy H-Ds won't be around forever.

Many years ago I read a article written about a town that was left behind when a GM plant closed. A store owner in the town asked how people who make $10 an hour in the general workforce are supposed to purchase a car from a company that pays the people who sweep the floors $20 an hour. Think about it regarding H-D.

And, just for the record, H-D may well be a marketing genius, but engineering - I don't think so. It's basically the same bike that many of us grew up with.

[dwsdad]

We have Union workers on the other side of the building form where I sit. Their contract was up 2 yrs ago and they went on strike claiming "cutting health care is sick". Well, all us managers had to cover for all the Union workers while they were on strike. I had to work 12 hr days answering the phone - not fun!

They finally settled about a month later. What did the UNion get? All medical paid, no premiums, no deductables, plus guaranteed jobs for the next 5 yrs (term of the new contract). What did the managers get that covered for their sorry asses while they were out? A $500 thank you "bonus", plus we pay more for our health insurance AND now have a $2500 deductable.

If I were King, the Union would be gone! Let them go find jobs that pay as well as what they get now with as little education as most of them have!

[Nebish]

Is it no wonder that the manufacturing base in the USA is slowly but surely being eroded by the spiraling cost of labour. I recently read a study that showed that the cost of union labour at Ford and GM amounted to $80 per hour, with all of the benefits factored in. In a non-union automobile manufacturing plant, the hourly cost is $40. That is a huge difference.

At one point in my career as a lawyer, I briefly worked for the UAW as an in-house lawyer. I was astounded by the confrontational attitude between the union and management. The atmosphere in the Ford plant was nothing short of poisonous. I am not surprised by the decline in the manufacturing economy in North America. We cannot compete with manufacturers that pay a few dollars a day in Asia or India. The American dream is rapidly becoming a nightmare.

[George_S]

While I agree that the UAW went way too far too fast in winning their demands from the automakers back in the 60s and 70s, they can't be completely to blame. The US automakers keep making the same mistakes over and over, thinking that they know what the average guy wants in an automobile, and they get it wrong in at at least a 2-1 margin. So, when the Japanese get it right, blame the unions!

It's all too easy after you make many wrong decisions to throw up your hands and scream "These unions are killing us!"

If you want to complain about a union worker making $60 an hour, what about the execs who make more than $1 Million, sometimes MUCH more, and probably put in many LESS hours in the plant than the union guy does.

I was outraged last year when I read that GM was laying off 66,000 workers all because the big whigs made the wrong decisions (production-wise) . We should be firing the executives, not continuing to pay them millions when they screw up so drastically. The little guy with the family and the mortgage always seems to get it in the ass, not the CEOs.

Maybe I'm on the side of the worker so much because when I started out as a rookie police officer in the 70s, my salary was so low I qualified for food stamps, while I struggled to stay alive sometimes during riots on the streets. For MANY years the cities and towns cried that they couldn't afford monetary raises and begged us to take benefits instead. We did. Now, so many years later, some in my state are pointing to public worker's pensions and trying to either cap them or cut them. This is because the various administrations have pissed away the tax dollars and now see these pension funds as a source to tap. I should mention that police officers here pay an average of 8 1/2 % of their gross salary into the pension, its certainly not a free handout. My pension fund is the healthiest in the country, funded at something like 104%, and my state has allowed businesses like American Express and Sears to borrow at least $ 6 BILLION from it, and the state uses many more BILLIONS from my pension fund to finance construction of luxury homes and golf courses, places the little guy will never get to use.

[hybridcage]

I work for UPS' biggest competitor. We are non-union. Brown drivers make 35% more hourly wage and get to top pay in 2 yrs (compared to an average of 10 with us) because of their evil union. The goals set by their management are more realistic, because of the union.

I love how a previous poster refers to union workers in a large generalized lump, I believe it was lazy and uneducated. News flash, labor is needed to keep everyone eating ( just an example). A college degree is not needed for every job, but the jobs must be done.

I'm in the south in an area that in the recent past had the worst unemployment rate in the nation due to job losses in cable and furniture manufacturing. I was laid off from a very good job in this field and had to find what I could to pay the bills. The company I left, well the ceo received a $5million bonus a month after I was let go.

Not everyone has the desire to start their own company. Some of us are happy to be dedicated employees. I understand and agree that the person who takes the risks get much more of the money. But, the average percentage of difference between labor and the suits has skyrocketed to a level of obscene greed. The ceo of my company last year made $5 more per MINUTE than I make in an hour, and this was every minute of every day, and this was just his bonus, not his salary.

I dont want to be rich, non of these workers do, i just would like to be able to live comfortably, you know pay the bills and go out to eat occasionally. I've ranted and shall now destroy my soapbox......

[jayjacobson]

They started looking at a plant for Chinky Davidson in 2004.
Oh my!....

[Daman858]

It should be interesting to note that directly across US 30 from the Harley plant in York, Pa. is a vast vacant industrial site that was once a huge Caterpillar plant that closed up due to a prolonged strike. In 2002, Cat's stock was at about $20. Now it is about $65 with many dividends and a spilt last July. Now, I am not taking sides here but unions and management must somehow get together and solve their problems or the company will do what is best for their bottom line.

[dshealey]

------------------------------I am not taking sides here but unions and management must somehow get together and solve their problems or the company will do what is best for their bottom line.

That is the whole thing in one sentence. The companies are not in the business of making jobs, but making money.

The company I work for is non union, and they still are shifting much of the manufacturing to Mexico and now they have opened a "service" operation in China. I would imagine that is just a stepping stone for much of the manufacturing to also move when the time looks right.

[cfell]

Some things never change.....

So, how can one survive in a total 'consumer' society?
Certainly one must work to survive and excel to live, to purchase...
Are we not creating a caste society of our children? or is it just "their" children?

If you wish, here is an interesting link.. http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/1timothy/1timothy6.htm

or

http://www.vatican.va/edocs/ENG0218/__PG.HTM Excerpt...
"The same question must be asked by all men, especially those belonging to the social groups that are dedicating themselves actively to development and progress today. As we observe and take part in these processes we cannot let ourselves be taken over merely by euphoria or be carried away by one-sided enthusiasm for our conquests, but we must all ask ourselves, with absolute honesty, objectivity and a sense of moral responsibility, the essential questions concerning man's situation today and in the future. Do all the conquests attained until now and those projected for the future for technology accord with man's moral and spiritual progress? In this context is man, as man, developing and progressing or is he regressing and being degraded in his humanity? In men and "in man's world", which in itself is a world of moral good and evil, does good prevail over evil? In men and among men is there a growth of social love, of respect for the rights of others-for every man, nation and people-or on the contrary is there an increase of various degrees of selfishness, exaggerated nationalism instead of authentic love of country, and also the propensity to dominate others beyond the limits of one's legitimate rights and merits and the propensity to exploit the whole of material progress and that in the technology of production for the exclusive purpose of dominating others or of favouring this or that imperialism?"

Ah... it's just the deacon....

[deputy5211]

Many of the points made here resonate with my own feelings, and I find that I cannot refine them down enough to make a stand on this thread, so I'm going to sit out from entering an opinion here.

What I do want to say is thank you all for sharing your opinions and "data." It gives me something to think about, and that's a good thing.

[Morley]

Well, all us managers had to cover for all the Union workers while they were on strike. I had to work 12 hr days answering the phone - not fun!

12 hrs answering the phone??? Boy, that's rough. HAH! Try 10+ hours (my normal shift) doing what I do for a living...I'd gladly sit and answer a phone for 12 hrs.

They finally settled about a month later. What did the UNion get? All medical paid, no premiums, no deductables, plus guaranteed jobs for the next 5 yrs (term of the new contract). What did the managers get that covered for their sorry asses while they were out? A $500 thank you "bonus", plus we pay more for our health insurance AND now have a $2500 deductable.

And how much more than the union workers do you make?

If I were King, the Union would be gone! Let them go find jobs that pay as well as what they get now with as little education as most of them have!
And without the "peon" workers you seem to disdain so, you would be out of a job. There is one thing american companies can do with less of and that is managers. American companies are going to micromanage themselves out of existance in 20 years or so if things don't change. But since I am just a "peon" worker, what do I know?
BTW, attitudes like in the last quote I pulled are why there are unions in the first place.

[jayjacobson]

It should be interesting to note that directly across US 30 from the Harley plant in York, Pa. is a vast vacant industrial site that was once a huge Caterpillar plant that closed up due to a prolonged strike. In 2002, Cat's stock was at about $20. Now it is about $65 with many dividends and a spilt last July. Now, I am not taking sides here but unions and management must somehow get together and solve their problems or the company will do what is best for their bottom line.

Dave, I understand that Cat is doing very well today (unlike so many other American veh/equipment manufacturers). Do they still built those huge machines in the US?

[jayjacobson]

That is the whole thing in one sentence. The companies are not in the business of making jobs, but making money.

The company I work for is non union, and they still are shifting much of the manufacturing to Mexico and now they have opened a "service" operation in China. I would imagine that is just a stepping stone for much of the manufacturing to also move when the time looks right.
I'm wondering if, in time, there will be no such thing as (large scale) manufacturing or even assembly in the USA?

[dshealey]

I'm wondering if, in time, there will be no such thing as (large scale) manufacturing or even assembly in the USA?

Since we have lost so much already, and more leaving every year, if nothing changes our children are going to be far worse off than we have been. Only so many "business management" jobs to go around. Wonder what all those graduates are going to do when there is so little business left here to manage?

Being an automation machine and system designer for decades now, it hurts like hell to see it going away. I am really worried about the future of the USA. Hopefully we have a lot of smart kids coming up that can see what the hell is happening and make moves to change our systems.

We certainly have the intelligence and willingness here, we just need to be allowed to apply it.

First thing that HAS to happen is to make all the upper management levels pay be commensurate with the companies successes, and also with their failures. If the company does bad, the pay should be also bad, and NO BONUSES!

[jayjacobson]

Since we have lost so much already, and more leaving every year, if nothing changes our children are going to be far worse off than we have been. Only so many "business management" jobs to go around. Wonder what all those graduates are going to do when there is so little business left here to manage?

Being an automation machine and system designer for decades now, it hurts like hell to see it going away. I am really worried about the future of the USA. Hopefully we have a lot of smart kids coming up that can see what the hell is happening and make moves to change our systems.

We certainly have the intelligence and willingness here, we just need to be allowed to apply it.

First thing that HAS to happen is to make all the upper management levels pay be commensurate with the companies successes, and also with their failures. If the company does bad, the pay should be also bad, and NO BONUSES!
I couldn't agree more. Major success(es) should be rewarded appropriately. Big pay and bonuses are rewards for a big performance. But, major failures should be dealt with through strict accountability. How many times have we seen major failure with no accountability? I would suggest that everybody in the company, not just management, be held accountable for the companies' performance. If the company does well, everybody gets a bonus. If the company does poorly, no bonus (or even a salary deduction for those at the top).

I would also like to bring strict accountability to governmental entities as well. Talk about ruffling some worthless hack's feathers!

Dealing with the upcoming utes of America on a daily basis, I would say our future is looking very bleak! These kids are smart, BUT, they have no common sense and are lazy. Intelligence is worthless without proper application.

[hschisler]

...Major success(es) should be rewarded appropriately. Big pay and bonuses are rewards for a big performance. But, major failures should be dealt with through strict accountability. How many times have we seen major failure with no accountability?...Some would say that a company's top officers are accountable: If the company performs poorly enough, and if the board of directors or shareholders complain enough, the CEO is fired. He gets his crazy-fat bonus of course, but his reputation among his CEO peers is tarnished and he has to leave with his head hanging low from the shame of it all... with his bonus check in his pocket.

We all should be so "accountable". :rolleyes:

There should be a version of the TV game show "Jeopardy" for CEOs: "I'll take Unemployment for $50 million, Alex."

[KMC1]

Two guys and a union worker were fishing on a lake one day, when Jesus walked across the water and joined them in the boat. When the three astonished men had settled down enough to speak, the first guy asked humbly,
"Jesus, I've suffered from back pain ever since I took shrapnel in the Vietnam war...could you help me?"
"Of course, my son", Jesus said, and when he touched the man's back, he felt relief for the first time in years.
The second man, who wore very thick glasses and had a hard time reading and driving, asked if Jesus could do anything about his eyesight.
Jesus smiled, removed the man's glasses and tossed them in the lake. When they hit the water, the man's eyes cleared and he could see everything distinctly.
When Jesus turned to heal the union worker, the guy put his hands up and
cried defensively, "Don't touch me! I'm on long term disability."

[KMC1]

Unionized Brothel

A dedicated union worker was attending a convention in Las Vegas
and, as you would expect, decided to check out the local brothels.
When he got to the first one, he asked the Madame, "Is this a union
house?"

"No," she replied, "I'm sorry it isn't."

"Well, if I pay you $100, what cut do the girls get?"

"The house gets $80, and the girls get $20." Mightily offended at
such unfair dealings, the man stomped off in search of a more
equitable, hopefully unionized shop.

His search continued until finally he reached a brothel where the
Madame responded, "Why yes sir, this is a union house."

The man asked, "And if I pay you $100, what cut do the girls get?"
The Madame replied' " the girls get $80, and the house gets $20."

"That's more like it!" the union man said. He looked around the room
and pointed to a stunning attractive blonde. "I'd like her for the
night."

"I'm sure you would sir," said the Madame, then, gesturing to an
obese seventy-five year old woman in the corner, "but Ethel here has
seniority."

[jayjacobson]

Some would say that a company's top officers are accountable: If the company performs poorly enough, and if the board of directors or shareholders complain enough, the CEO is fired. He gets his crazy-fat bonus of course, but his reputation among his CEO peers is tarnished and he has to leave with his head hanging low from the shame of it all... with his bonus check in his pocket.

Agreed, Howard. Oh the shame of it--with that huge golden handshake! I think it's time that we change our definition of accountable.

I think it's time that we bring accountability to the public sector as well. Just because it's our tax dollars doesn't make it any less poor performance.

If you ever have a few spare minutes, Dogpile "King Drew Medical Center." A multi-million dollar public disaster in LA CO. Is anyone accountable? Of course not! The CEO of the hospital that was closed down by JHACO was actually praised!