Antisocial English

[midwilshire]

I while ago I was busy (http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthread.php?p=140776#post140776) denigrating the English for their complicity in maintaining a police state. I said that I had heard that they are encouraged to report antisocial behavior to the authorities. Not crimes or anything needing police assistance, mind you - just antisocial behavior.

Tonight I was reading the joke (http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18530) from our member Axamax and trying to figure out what in the world a “B&P” could be. I thought it was probably regional, so I googled “St. Albans,” as that shows up in his signature line on the post. Geography is not my strong suit.

Turns out… St. Albans is in the UK and has a website (http://www.stalbans.gov.uk/). The website has - would you believe - a form (http://www.stalbans.gov.uk/ufs/ufsmain?formid=P98_ASB_REPORT) for ratting out the antisocial behavior. Good heavens, it's not just a rumor!

Thank goodness my town doesn’t have such a form; the administrative offices would be inundated.

Anyway, could someone from England comment on just what English society regards as “antisocial behavior,” and what effect these forms have? Does anyone use them? What happens when a form is turned in? Anything else we should know about them? Are they really as suspect as they seem to us across the pond? Or does it just sound bad...

Oh, and what's a B&P??

[Ted Shred]

It's a B&Q - Looks like British Home Depot - http://www.diy.com/diy/jsp/index.jsp

Now I have no idea what the hell the joke is all about...

[meese]

I'm not English, but I did live in Wales for several years, and my ancestors did come across on The Mayflower. :)

First off, B&Q (http://www.diy.com/diy/jsp/index.jsp) is a DIY (Do-It-Yourself) hardware chain. Think Home Depot and you'd be close. Too much pre-fab pressboard furniture for my tastes, but I suppose I could say that about Home Depot, too.

And the Anti-Social behaviour is a real problem in some areas. The UK doesn't have quite the same level of organized criminal gangs as major US cities, but they do have their problems. There was a lot of talk about Football Hooligans when I lived there. They are basically just out looking to cause trouble, start fights and riots and cause mayhem just for the fun of it, pretty much regardless of whether their "team" wins or loses.

And there are also a lot of bored and disaffected youth that have nothing better to do than hurt and steal and destroy, and no regard for anyone but themselves. It's gotten so bad in some places that you pretty much can't go out at night. When the local town pubs let out at 11 p.m., the High Street (main street shopping area) usually fills with drunken louts stumbling about in packs. These folks wander around looking for a fight, relieving themselves on buildings and benches, and occasionally breaking shop windows.

There was one pensioner (retired man) who lived across from a pub that got sick of them peeing on the corner of his house, so he would stand on his upper balcony with a garden hose and wet them down right back. I'm surprised he didn't get killed or at least beaten badly, but I can understand his frustration.

You've also got a lot of teenagers who have embraced the whole gangsta theme and slink around in hoodies (hooded sweatshirts which act as sort of a uniform and also hide their identity) just generally being obnoxious and antisocial. I have heard that there are now a bunch of old ladies who have adopted the hoodie look just to show how ridiculous it is and to make it instantly uncool. Rather proactive of them, I'd say.

Now don't think that I'm just bashing the UK. There are lots of things we loved about the country, and like anywhere else there is a range of different neighborhoods and social levels at work. And we sure have our own share of social problems here in the US. At least the British youth don't generally carry guns, so you don't get quite the same level of death and destruction that you do in South Central L.A., or Atlanta, or Detroit, or any major urban center.

But anytime you get a large concentration of youth who have no goals, no responsibilities, and little chance or incentive to make a better life for themselves, then you will get these kinds of problems. That's just how society functions, and it's sure not going to be solved by throwing money at the problem, or filling out a form.

[meese]

Now I have no idea what the hell the joke is all about..."asked me if I wanted decking" as in wood to build a deck for your house, or could be taken as being decked, i.e. punched in the face.

British humor is generally much more subtle than what we Americans are used to, but it can be quite witty and fairly pointed as well. They also don't use as many qualifiers and niceties as we do, so you hear phrases like "go to hospital" (instead of the hospital) or "innit" (isn't it) that can seem jarring to us.

English lesson over now. Back to your regularly scheduled thread. :)

[Ted Shred]

"asked me if I wanted decking" as in wood to build a deck for your house, or could be taken as being decked, i.e. punched in the face.

British humor is generally much more subtle than what we Americans are used to, but it can be quite witty and fairly pointed as well. They also don't use as many qualifiers and niceties as we do, so you hear phrases like "go to hospital" (instead of the hospital) or "innit" (isn't it) that can seem jarring to us.

I got the "decking" Just didn't think it was at all funny. Too subtle for me I guess:)

[midwilshire]

I guess my confusion comes in understanding the meaning of "anti-social." The form indicates it's not a crime. So what is it? Why have a form like this? Are there alterior motives at play? Is it designed to enlist little brothers (for big brother)? Or is this a genuinely good idea for a civil society, and the US just hasn't figured it out yet?

... They are basically just out looking to cause trouble, start fights [crime] and riots [crime] and cause mayhem [crime] just for the fun of it...

And there are also a lot of bored and disaffected youth that have nothing better to do than hurt [crime] and steal [crime] and destroy [crime], and no regard for anyone but themselves [do we impose a "regard" requirement on anyone?]....When the local town pubs let out at 11 p.m., the High Street (main street shopping area) usually fills with drunken louts stumbling about in packs [crime]. These folks wander around looking for a fight [do we punish for just looking?], relieving themselves on buildings and benches [crime], and occasionally breaking shop windows [crime].

There was one pensioner (retired man) who lived across from a pub that got sick of them peeing on the corner of his house [crime], so he would stand on his upper balcony with a garden hose and wet them down right back [crime]. I'm surprised he didn't get killed or at least beaten badly [crime], but I can understand his frustration.

You've also got a lot of teenagers who have embraced the whole gangsta theme and slink around in hoodies (hooded sweatshirts which act as sort of a uniform and also hide their identity) just generally being obnoxious and antisocial. [circular... antisocial = antisocial??]
You see my difficulty. If society doesn't want people to do a certain thing, society outlaws that thing and it becomes a crime. If not, it's not antisocial, so why report it?

Perhaps they're using 'antisocial' to mean "looks like there's a high probability that there could be some crimes happening soon." I think there are real problems with that, but I'll wait for comments from the UK....

[grahamw]

When considering ASBO's you also have to consider how UK society and the Police with the CPS operate. There are large areas of urban housing owned by local authorities and made available as affordable housing for people. Unfortunately what tends to happen is that a lot of the inhabitants have tended to end up on Social Security benefits and this has lead further problems and the area can degenerate into a ghetto with large gangs of youths with nothing to do, no parental guidance and no police presence. (This is very general - there are some nice bits in the UK)

While gathering on the street corner is not illegal it can be anti social. If you are issued with a court order to stop gathering etc and you comply with the directions in the order nothing will happen. If you break these directions you are in breach of a court order and can go straight to jail. Of course the gubiment made a mess of implementation and you get all sorts of things qualifying for an asbo:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/6252979.stm

and as asbo being regarded as a badge of honour ;-/ Plenty of storeis at

http://search.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/search/results.pl?tab=all&q=asbo&edition=d&start=2&scope=all&link=next

[patrick2000]

I'm not English, but I did live in Wales for several years, and my ancestors did come across on The Mayflower. :)

First off, B&Q (http://www.diy.com/diy/jsp/index.jsp) is a DIY (Do-It-Yourself) hardware chain. Think Home Depot and you'd be close. Too much pre-fab pressboard furniture for my tastes, but I suppose I could say that about Home Depot, too.

And the Anti-Social behaviour is a real problem in some areas. The UK doesn't have quite the same level of organized criminal gangs as major US cities, but they do have their problems. There was a lot of talk about Football Hooligans when I lived there. They are basically just out looking to cause trouble, start fights and riots and cause mayhem just for the fun of it, pretty much regardless of whether their "team" wins or loses.

And there are also a lot of bored and disaffected youth that have nothing better to do than hurt and steal and destroy, and no regard for anyone but themselves. It's gotten so bad in some places that you pretty much can't go out at night. When the local town pubs let out at 11 p.m., the High Street (main street shopping area) usually fills with drunken louts stumbling about in packs. These folks wander around looking for a fight, relieving themselves on buildings and benches, and occasionally breaking shop windows.

There was one pensioner (retired man) who lived across from a pub that got sick of them peeing on the corner of his house, so he would stand on his upper balcony with a garden hose and wet them down right back. I'm surprised he didn't get killed or at least beaten badly, but I can understand his frustration.

You've also got a lot of teenagers who have embraced the whole gangsta theme and slink around in hoodies (hooded sweatshirts which act as sort of a uniform and also hide their identity) just generally being obnoxious and antisocial. I have heard that there are now a bunch of old ladies who have adopted the hoodie look just to show how ridiculous it is and to make it instantly uncool. Rather proactive of them, I'd say.

Now don't think that I'm just bashing the UK. There are lots of things we loved about the country, and like anywhere else there is a range of different neighborhoods and social levels at work. And we sure have our own share of social problems here in the US. At least the British youth don't generally carry guns, so you don't get quite the same level of death and destruction that you do in South Central L.A., or Atlanta, or Detroit, or any major urban center.

But anytime you get a large concentration of youth who have no goals, no responsibilities, and little chance or incentive to make a better life for themselves, then you will get these kinds of problems. That's just how society functions, and it's sure not going to be solved by throwing money at the problem, or filling out a form.

Meese,

Having lived in England for many years, I find your analysis agrees with my own experience. I was there (Manchester, Liverpool) in the late 1970s and early 1980s and things were similar. At times I was one of those soccer hooligans. The mixture of mob mentality and testosterone impaired youth can produce interesting societal issues.

[meese]

Being obnoxious in itself isn't a crime (or else we'd all be in trouble at one time or another :)). But can you imagine you and the misses going out for a nice dinner in town, and on the way back to the car you're hassled and harassed and threatened by various street gangs, either directly or indirectly. In some places, it's gotten so bad that most folks just stay away from town centers after dark. That not only inconveniences those who have done nothing wrong, but it effectively shuts down all businesses except for a few late-night pubs and dance clubs.

If the situation escalates where a crime does occur, then not only do you have a victim to deal with, but you have to be able to prove what occurred, and who did it. Remember, the hoodies offer a certain level of anonymity, and large groups do tend to prey on couples or older folks who have little chance of fighting back.

I'm not sure that Big Brother is the best way to handle such things, but in some areas the problem has escalated to the point where people are crying out for something to be done. And as usual, the official responses are inadequate and ineffective.

But like Graham says, there are lots of great places to live and work in the UK. We really enjoyed our time there, and have returned every year or two for a visit ever since.

[meese]

I got the "decking" Just didn't think it was at all funny. Too subtle for me I guess:)I never said that it was funny, just that it was subtle. Like most humour, it's all a matter of taste.

And if you want a really interesting view of British humour, then look up Eddie Izzard (http://www.eddieizzard.com/). Or just watch most anything on BBC America. You'll see where a lot of US sitcoms got their starts.