Measure of a good nation.

[norsseman]

In case we find ourselves starting to believe all the anti-American sentiment and negativity, we should remember England's Prime Minister Tony Blair's words during a recent interview. When asked by one of his Parliament members why he believes so much in America, he said:

"A simple way to take measure of a country is to look at how many want in... And how many want out." Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you:

1. Jesus Christ
2. The American G. I.

One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

[messenger13]

I ain't arguing with any of that! :)

[jayz9705]

I'm still trying to figure out why many of those that want in keep trying to change things to duplicate what they left behind!?!?!?

[tmgs]

I'm still trying to figure out why many of those that want in keep trying to change things to duplicate what they left behind!?!?!?

you hit the nail on the head!!

Tom

[meese]

What if you don't believe in #1?

[rixchard]

And what would these things be that they want to duplicate?

[tmgs]

What if you don't believe in #1?

Then you have number #2

Which has been said, there is no non believer in the trench's <grin>


The beauty of this country is you can have a choice



Tom

[UncleRock]

What if you don't believe in #1?
Your full of #2, how do you pee if you don't believe in #1 :histerica
Rock

[cfell]

"Kids say the darndest things...

http://www.kids4truth.com/watchmaker/watch.html

[tkramer]

"Kids say the darndest things...

http://www.kids4truth.com/watchmaker/watch.html

How did we get from a Tony Blair quote to "Dr. Seuss can't find a rhyme for 'abiogenesis' "?

[KMC1]

And what would these things be that they want to duplicate?

I think what is meant (and I'm only guessing) is the fact that many millions of the people who have emigrated to the U.S. in recent years have intentionally not learned the language, but instead have begun to "take over" areas of the country where they have moved. As an example, I was in Orlando this past week and I was shocked to see how many billboards, store signs, etc. are in Spanish. Advertisements for Chevy's, supermarkets, weekly sales, store specials etc. are in Spanish, not even bi-lingual. (which I don't feel is appropriate either). I was offended when I went into a convenience store and there were signs that advertised a store special of a large fountain drink purchased with a carnita sandwich, would come with free chips - ONLY in Spanish.
There are people who apply for jobs who are qualified for the position and are college educated, who are not hired because they are not bi-lingual. I think you would be shocked to learn how much money each year you are paying in taxes so that there are translators available for people to use for all sorts of things, hospital visits, government requirements (paying taxes, drivers licenses, etc.). If we're going to dictate forms, translators, etc. must be available for Spanish speakers, then we need to have them for EVERY language and dialect IMO, and that is just way too expensive.
I'm not getting into all the other things like anchor babies, welfare, wage suppression, national security etc. either, which honestly are more pressing issues that go along with the situation.

[TandemCyclist]

I think what is meant (and I'm only guessing) is the fact that many millions of the people who have emigrated to the U.S. in recent years have intentionally not learned the language, but instead have begun to "take over" areas of the country where they have moved. As an example, I was in Orlando this past week and I was shocked to see how many billboards, store signs, etc. are in Spanish. Advertisements for Chevy's, supermarkets, weekly sales, store specials etc. are in Spanish, not even bi-lingual. (which I don't feel is appropriate either). I was offended when I went into a convenience store and there were signs that advertised a store special of a large fountain drink purchased with a carnita sandwich, would come with free chips - ONLY in Spanish.
There are people who apply for jobs who are qualified for the position and are college educated, who are not hired because they are not bi-lingual. I think you would be shocked to learn how much money each year you are paying in taxes so that there are translators available for people to use for all sorts of things, hospital visits, government requirements (paying taxes, drivers licenses, etc.). If we're going to dictate forms, translators, etc. must be available for Spanish speakers, then we need to have them for EVERY language and dialect IMO, and that is just way too expensive.
I'm not getting into all the other things like anchor babies, welfare, wage suppression, national security etc. either, which honestly are more pressing issues that go along with the situation.

In my opinion this type of thing is the biggest reason to keep religion out of politics. Separation of church and state is of utmost importance for all of your children and grand children. "Your" religion might (will) not be in power in 30 years. If religion and big business got out of politics the politicians might give some thought to what we, the people, the citizens of this country, want.

[KMC1]

I'm confused. My post that you quoted spoke only of language and some cultural "issues", yet you bring religion into the mix. Also, which religion would you consider to be "mine"? I not sure how your reply got so far off course, unless I'm missing something?

[rixchard]

While I find you anecdotal evidence of Spanish spreading wildly though out the nation and replacing English interesting I fear you have little real evidence to backup the assertion.

Here is a more measured study of the problem.

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2001/2001464_1.pdf

[KYchris02]

if you don't like people speaking spanish in America or god forbid putting up a sign in spanish... you can always leave.

[rixchard]

Wow! The old watchmaker argument. How quaint.

[strsout]

I'm still trying to figure out why many of those that want in keep trying to change things to duplicate what they left behind!?!?!?

That is a good point. As one of those who move in 10 years ago, I keep asking my self the same question every time I saw some other like me who move in and then try to live like they used to live before, and when they can't, start complaining, but they don't move out... :) isn't that funny? :)

My idea of move it is that the one have to adapt him/her self to the new place, not the other way around. After all, the American way was one of the main reasons why I moved. No, wasn't money. I make about 1/3 less here then I was making on my own country. But I have more quality life here, and that is what is important for me. There I had a new bike every other year, and never had more then 1000 miles when I sold my bikes. Here I have about 60K on my 2002LT. This is quality of life for me, not a new bike with no miles on it, just sitting on my garage.
Now days, at least were I live, I can see all the changes, for bad, the area is experiencing, and most of the American way is not here any more. Maybe is time to search for another place on this country, were they still having that original way to live.

But again, this is just my personal opinion and I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything.

[BillyOmaha]

I think what is meant (and I'm only guessing) is the fact that many millions of the people who have emigrated to the U.S. in recent years have intentionally not learned the language, but instead have begun to "take over" areas of the country where they have moved. As an example, I was in Orlando this past week and I was shocked to see how many billboards, store signs, etc. are in Spanish. Advertisements for Chevy's, supermarkets, weekly sales, store specials etc. are in Spanish, not even bi-lingual. (which I don't feel is appropriate either). I was offended when I went into a convenience store and there were signs that advertised a store special of a large fountain drink purchased with a carnita sandwich, would come with free chips - ONLY in Spanish.
There are people who apply for jobs who are qualified for the position and are college educated, who are not hired because they are not bi-lingual. I think you would be shocked to learn how much money each year you are paying in taxes so that there are translators available for people to use for all sorts of things, hospital visits, government requirements (paying taxes, drivers licenses, etc.). If we're going to dictate forms, translators, etc. must be available for Spanish speakers, then we need to have them for EVERY language and dialect IMO, and that is just way too expensive.
I'm not getting into all the other things like anchor babies, welfare, wage suppression, national security etc. either, which honestly are more pressing issues that go along with the situation.Howdy Kevin,

I'm not trying to join this debate, just tossing out an observation:

Ever notice around the world how much is done in English?
-It is mandatory that all Air traffic communicate in English.
-Virtually all scientific/medical journals are in English.
-In Europe, including France, meetings that have international participants speak English.
-That when we travel abroad, Europe, Canada, Mexico, Central and South America it is "expected" that virtually every hotel, restaurant, car rental agency, resort, etc., will have the staff, at leas one member, that will speak English.

There's a lot more that is English centric as well.

Not passing judgement on it, just an observation.

An excerpt from the Eurydice (http://www.eurydice.org/ressources/eurydice/pdf/commonpressdos/PR049EN.pdf) EU educational network organization:

English – whether chosen or mandatory – is the main language learnt
Unlike most of the new Member States, over half of the countries in the former 15-member
EU specify which foreign language has to be learnt first. In such cases, that language is
generally English and this is not a recent trend. In a few countries, other languages are
mandatory for historical or political reasons (5).
.

[rixchard]

oh dear, here we go again All these pesky little facts getting in the way of a persons world view. How ever will we be able to maintain our prejudices if people like you keep throwing facts and information into the mix.

[George_S]

In my opinion this type of thing is the biggest reason to keep religion out of politics. Separation of church and state is of utmost importance for all of your children and grand children. "Your" religion might (will) not be in power in 30 years. If religion and big business got out of politics the politicians might give some thought to what we, the people, the citizens of this country, want.

HUH?! I reread his post twice and can't find the reference to religion. Are you having a brain fart or did you respond to the wrong thread?

And BTW- there is nothing in our constitution that mentions "separation of church and state." That is a more modern (wishful by some [A MINORITY] ) interpretation.

[petepeterson]

Your right George,,,,,, The Gov. is not suppose to get in religion by controlling it in any way.... But having religion in gov. is quite ok.... The modern interpretation ...
Having religion with the freedom from gov control,,, this "no reference of religion" in gov. is stupid......

And Mr. Billy Omaha,, I went and looked all over for a line of people waiting to leave the good ol USA Couldn't find one anywhere.... So maybe English is a good language to have on the road signs.............Pete

[midwilshire]

And BTW- there is nothing in our constitution that mentions "separation of church and state." That is a more modern (wishful by some [A MINORITY] ) interpretation.You've got to read beyond the body of Constitution to the First Amendment.

Yes, it came later: 1791. Perhaps that's considered "modern" for you old timers ;)

[petepeterson]

Sure hope your not referring to the Federalist papers because they don't endorse the new interpretation of total separation ..........Pete

[TandemCyclist]

HUH?! I reread his post twice and can't find the reference to religion. Are you having a brain fart or did you respond to the wrong thread?

And BTW- there is nothing in our constitution that mentions "separation of church and state." That is a more modern (wishful by some [A MINORITY] ) interpretation.

Occasionally I think some might be on the same wave length as me. Just to get us to some common ground.

What organizations are in the "business" of protecting (sometimes harboring) illegal aliens? Are the signs and sales originally posted by KMC1 for true immigrants, or the illegals big and small business like to hire? If religious organizations did not have the influence they have would not politicians do what they were elected for and take care of the problems that are actually causing said signs? Same questions for big business? Do we need a fence to keep illegals out or do we need to increase tax revenue and prison population by doing something with big executives who are the main contributers to our illegal Spanish speaking population? If you can answers these questions you might know where I was coming from or going too.

I actually have no problem with this type of sign since it keeps me in practice for my second language. I just wish more Italians would get some signs going to help with my third language, these CDs are getting boring.

Wait forget all I said, The Hispanics, (Could not call them Mexicans because I have know idea what country they came from), my dad hired, wait gave some money to, just busted their asses for $25 helping me take out 4 trees today.

Oh Yea, Most of my farts actually come out about .8 meters (about 31.5" for those that don't speak a different language) from my brain unless my head is where y........ :)

[KMC1]

While I find you anecdotal evidence of Spanish spreading wildly though out the nation and replacing English interesting I fear you have little real evidence to backup the assertion.

Here is a more measured study of the problem.

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2001/2001464_1.pdf

It probably would be beneficial for you to take a step back from the computer and take a deep breath. It may also help you to do two things: 1) switch to Sanka and 2) don't be so anxious to whip out the racism card. Especially given the fact that you only know I'm not a liberal namby pamby and very little else.
Just to reiterate, I was using Spanish as an example of what people may (or may not) mean by wanting things to be here, as they are in the country (ies) they have left behind. There are a multitude of things that come into play; religion, work ethic, cultural views on women, etc. etc. etc.

The study you mention is from 2001, which means the study itself took place <2000, do you know what the population growth has been since the study? Also, I have a question for you, if as Billy Omaha has pointed out, English is the "preferred" language around the world, why would ANYONE want to come here and not learn it? What would the impetus be to avoid embracing the country to which you have emigrated?
Also, as I stated, if you believe it is appropriate to accomodate Spanish speakers who prefer English as a second language, do you believe we should also then accomodate others? I.E. Vietnamese, Chinese, Polish, Albanian, Russian, etc.?
What factors do you consider to be "National"? In other words, what common denominators do you believe constitutes a "country"? At the same time, can you define the word "invasion" for me?

I had an interesting conversation with a colleague who is from Mexico City, Mexico by birth, who now resides outside LA. I asked him point blank, what do you think would be the Mexican Governments reaction to 10 million Americans sneaking into Mexico and gathering in Mexico City waving American Flags and DEMANDING citizenship and citizen rights. Needless to say he would not answer the question. I then asked him, what is the immigration policy of Mexico? Especially what is the Immigration policy for Mexico in regards to other peoples of South America? Again, he would not answer.

If it is not only OK, but legally enforcable for a country such as Mexico to be nationalistic, why then is it wrong for America?

[KMC1]

if you don't like people speaking spanish in America or god forbid putting up a sign in spanish... you can always leave.

No offense, but you're either just trying to get my goat, or you're completely out of touch. If you are seriously advocating that people should be able to come to your home country and take over the land, culture, language and religion, and if you don't like it you will need to leave, you may want to go back and study a little history.

[George_S]

You've got to read beyond the body of Constitution to the First Amendment.

Yes, it came later: 1791. Perhaps that's considered "modern" for you old timers ;)
What I said was that nowhere in the constitution or the amendments does it say that church and state must be separate. What it simply said was that Congress shall pass no law favoring one religion over another. The founding fathers didn't want there to be an 'official' religion.

Nothing in there says "separation of Church and State." If it was totally separate, we wouldn't have "In God We Trust" on our money, we wouldn't swear on a bible in court, and states wouldn't be able to reimburse parochial school parents for the cost of busing, etc, etc.

[meese]

If it was totally separate, we wouldn't have "In God We Trust" on our money, we wouldn't swear on a bible in court, and states wouldn't be able to reimburse parochial school parents for the cost of busing, etc, etc.Maybe we don't need any of those things. Just a thought.

[KYchris02]

No offense, but you're either just trying to get my goat, or you're completely out of touch. If you are seriously advocating that people should be able to come to your home country and take over the land, culture, language and religion, and if you don't like it you will need to leave, you may want to go back and study a little history.

My understanding of history seems to recollect a little group called the Romans who... try as they may to rule the world with only Romans and Roman culture and Roman language and Roman signs... found out what forced integration was all about. They did have a nice little run there.

I know you'll say "this is a-mair-ee-kah, by gawd" ... save it.

Embrace the other cultures ... eventually you might have to. At least teach you children how to do it. They will have to share with others. Maybe even learn a little Chineese or Arabic.

[rixchard]

The study indicates that most all people coming here either legaly or illegally strive to learn English and usally master it. Your counter arguement is that you have seen some stores with some signs in them that are in spansih only. Your evidence is not very convincing. Now if you have some other information that lends credence to your conjecture go right ahead and post it.

[hoog62]

try as they may to rule the world with only Romans and Roman culture and Roman language and Roman signs... found out what forced integration was all about.

There is a HUGE difference between the Romans conquering nations, forcing them to conform, and expecting immigrants to learn the ways of a country they came to voluntarily.

[JCabranes]

you hit the nail on the head!!

Tom

Maybe its because immigrants (past and present) are more comfortable in familiear surroundings. That would explain the ethnic neighborhoods in most big cities.

[KYchris02]

There is a HUGE difference between the Romans conquering nations, forcing them to conform, and expecting immigrants to learn the ways of a country they came to voluntarily.

You miss my point my friend. If you examine the parallels between ancient Rome and modern U.S. ... there are many. Much like the Romans used all surrounding non-Roman countries for their grunt labor... we too have such an arrangement with our latino neighbors. When the Roman labor forces began to outnumber the Romans, I bet they had similar "chatrooms" where Romans said things like "they should speak our language and succumb to our culture."

My point was not that the Romans were conquerors... it was that they were ultimately conquered largely due to their elitist, isolationist policies.

Finally, it could be argued, that immigrants mostly to not come here willingly. Rather, they are forced here by the deplorable or repressive conditions in their homeland. Kind of how our entire country was formed. With your "they should speak our language" reasoning, we should all be speaking Cherokee or Navajo or Lakota or ...

[KMC1]

The study indicates that most all people coming here either legaly or illegally strive to learn English and usally master it. Your counter arguement is that you have seen some stores with some signs in them that are in spansih only. Your evidence is not very convincing. Now if you have some other information that lends credence to your conjecture go right ahead and post it.

Richard, You again have chosen to only focus on the example of language relating to your earlier request for examples, and have ignored MY questions.
The info on the rates of non-english speaking households rising is not anecdotal, ask anyone who is in CA,NC,SC,TN,TX,CO, etc. Here is a website you may enjoy:
http://www.proenglish.org/issues/offeng/census.html
As you can see here, almost a fifth of the population does not speak English well or at all, and the rate is exploding, as well as the illiteracy rates (along with teenage pregnancy rates) are skyrocketing. If, as you state, people coming here are "striving" to learn English, it's certainly not reflected here.
And again, language was only used as an EXAMPLE of people coming here who refuse to adapt to the new culture they came here for. There are many other examples.
Also you are skirting the issues entirely by only trolling with two or three sentence replies with no substance to them. I only got into this discussion because I do believe it is important to our country, not because I want to waste time getting caught up in a flame fest.
I think it's important because of the example KYchris provides, in that he is not only of the opinion that anyone who doesn't wish to learn Spanish and become part of the "new" culture needs to be displaced, but is also showing a very Berkely like attitude towards this country's past and future. To try to liken people coming to this country being expected to embrace their new home as an attempt to subjegate them, and use this as an argument to "justify" the ultimate demise of America, is disingenuous to say the least.
I would like to ask you KYchris, if you really feel that "a-mair-ee-kah, by gawd" not only deserves to impload, but NEEDS to, what other country in the entire world would let people like you continue to live without persecution after stating such a thing? Would you still say the same types of things in Venezuala? Nicauragua? China?

It doesn't sound to me like I should be the one going anywhere. ;)

[KYchris02]

KCM1,

your racism my friend is unshakable. you win.

I choose to no longer explain why I think we should all just get along regardelss of what language we speak or what country we were born in.

may all your future quests for a big gulp over at the 7-11 be met with only the finest english instructions.

here endeth the lesson...

[hoog62]

With your "they should speak our language" reasoning, we should all be speaking Cherokee or Navajo or Lakota or ...

Assuming facts not in evidence there Chris, but thanks for not calling me a racist.

[KMC1]

KCM1,

your racism my friend is unshakable. you win.

I choose to no longer explain why I think we should all just get along regardelss of what language we speak or what country we were born in.

may all your future quests for a big gulp over at the 7-11 be met with only the finest english instructions.

here endeth the lesson...

And here we see the end game of all "progressives" and "liberals". Oh my, I was just called a racist! The horror! What next? Will you now call me a white nationalist or a white supremacist? :histerica

Oh well, an ad-hominen attack is a whole lot easier than dealing with the issues or answering the questions put forth.

Here's hoping that when "a-mair-ee-kah, by gawd" fails after it's "good run" you're in the chosen group that has forced everyone else out! :rolleyes:

[KMC1]

oh dear, here we go again All these pesky little facts getting in the way of a persons world view. How ever will we be able to maintain our prejudices if people like you keep throwing facts and information into the mix.

I really love how unabashedly self righteous you always come across in your posts. Especially this last one, as it really shows off your penchant for portraying yourself as being both self righteous AND condescending.
Funny how that all stopped as soon as any info counter to your stance came up.
Looks like you may be a good candidate for the ol' ignore list.

[hschisler]

...Looks like you may be a good candidate for the ol' ignore list.Too late! He's already #2 on the Ignore List! (yes, actually)

I had the pleasure of meeting Richard at CCR. We had a nice little visit in the hotel's conference center one evening... but then, we didn't debate any of these topics. :)

My take on your comment, FWIW, is that he just needs to use the occasional emoticon to better communicate his message, but then I don't speak for him.

[tmgs]

Maybe its because immigrants (past and present) are more comfortable in familiear surroundings. That would explain the ethnic neighborhoods in most big cities.

Not by duplicating the same crap they left behind

Now if your just talking about using their language and or culture then I would say yes you are correct.

His point was so many come here and want to change this country

or i think that was his point, as it seemed that way to me

[rixchard]

Yes,I can be quite condesending, but you should see what is felled by the mighty axe of the delete key before I hit the post button. Now, as far as facts go, I have seen no facts other than the paper that I posted a link to. Perhaps you could show me what I missed.

[KMC1]

:p
You're on my ignore list now and I usually wouldn't do this, but you really do deserve it:

[BillyOmaha]

....And Mr. Billy Omaha,, I went and looked all over for a line of people waiting to leave the good ol USA Couldn't find one anywhere.... So maybe English is a good language to have on the road signs.............PeteUh.....of course, Pete.

However, if that's what you got out out of my post;
Howdy Kevin,

I'm not trying to join this debate, just tossing out an observation:

Ever notice around the world how much is done in English?
-It is mandatory that all Air traffic communicate in English.
-Virtually all scientific/medical journals are in English.
-In Europe, including France, meetings that have international participants speak English.
-That when we travel abroad, Europe, Canada, Mexico, Central and South America it is "expected" that virtually every hotel, restaurant, car rental agency, resort, etc., will have the staff, at leas one member, that will speak English.

There's a lot more that is English centric as well.

Not passing judgement on it, just an observation.

An excerpt from the Eurydice (http://www.eurydice.org/ressources/eurydice/pdf/commonpressdos/PR049EN.pdf) EU educational network organization:

English – whether chosen or mandatory – is the main language learnt
Unlike most of the new Member States, over half of the countries in the former 15-member
EU specify which foreign language has to be learnt first. In such cases, that language is
generally English and this is not a recent trend. In a few countries, other languages are
mandatory for historical or political reasons (5).
then either you're not reading it in a thoughtful manner, or I am not coherent in my writing, or perhaps both.

.

[petepeterson]

The fault was on my end Mr. Billy Omaha :o I rushed a abbreviated response that was in agreement with you and a few others.. My post certainly could have been made clearer,,The admonishment was most assuredly warranted..........Pete

[BillyOmaha]

The fault was on my end Mr. Billy Omaha :o I rushed a abbreviated response that was in agreement with you and a few others.. My post certainly could have been made clearer,,The admonishment was most assuredly warranted..........PeteHowdy Pete,

No admonishment intended, just trying to avoid someone observing, as was so well stated in Cool Hand Luke, "that what we have here is a failure to communicate" ;)

Perhaps I'm being naive, but I think this type of community and the exchange of opinions can have a beneficial impact, however tiny it may be. Even if 20 years from now we're doing it in Spanish :rotf:

.

[rixchard]

Oh yeah? Well. when I post my innovative and inexpensive solution for fixing rear end failures, all the rest of the folks who hang on my every word will be using it and you will be limping along dealing with one read end failure after another
.
Also note, you will be missing out on my plan for Iraq as well as my special recipe for making rhubarb cupcakes.

You'll rue the day you ever ignored me.